Yoko Ono - Part 1

[00:00:00] This episode is the first of two dedicated to Yoko Ono's exhibition, Music of the Mind

[00:00:26] at Tate Modern. By the way, this exhibition is organised by Tate Modern in London in collaboration

[00:00:33] with Kunst Samling Nordheim Vesfalen in Dusselville. So we decided to extend our usual time allocated

[00:00:42] to exhibitions which is one episode because Yoko Ono is one of the most overlooked and yet

[00:00:47] pivotal artists of the second half of the 20th century. Personally I find that she helps

[00:00:54] us understand conceptualism, a type of art we sort of lost contact with and remain oblivious

[00:00:59] to in many ways because she's not enamored with it. She uses it for connectivity and

[00:01:06] togetherness. She understands its time-based nature or rather she helped create it because

[00:01:12] she wanted so to be a concert pianist or a composer but ultimately she became Yoko Ono,

[00:01:20] one of the first women to navigate male spaces in contemporary art and music. She is a woman

[00:01:27] of firsts and the first thing she was confronted with was constantly being an outsider. Her

[00:01:33] family was Catholic but incredibly interested in classical Japanese art while also dedicating

[00:01:40] a lot of time to jazz her father and painting, her mother and her aunt Anna Bupnova and

[00:01:47] her sister Vivara Bupnova introduced constructivism in Japan. They came straight from Russia.

[00:01:54] She was the first woman to enroll in a philosophy course in Japan and she was the first person

[00:01:59] to publish a book of instruction art, grapefruit, in 1964. This was before Solowit would produce

[00:02:07] his first wall drawing at Policube Gallery in 1968 and thus embark on an instruction-based

[00:02:13] form of drawing in relation with architecture. My point here is that it doesn't really matter

[00:02:19] who did what first but it is important not to obliterate the role female but also queer

[00:02:25] native or non-binary artists played. For instance personally I knew of grapefruit much later than

[00:02:32] I knew of Lawrence Vinnner, Joseph Kassout and Solowit's writing about conceptual art. I was

[00:02:38] astounded by the poetic quality and impossibility of some of the instructions and how to revise

[00:02:44] my idea of instruction art. When in fact her instructions were connected with a notion

[00:02:49] of musical schools and poetry, it also allowed me to understand one of the statements by Solowit

[00:02:56] saying that quote, conceptual artists are mystics rather than rationalists. They leap

[00:03:03] to conclusions that logic cannot reach. Rational judgments repeat rational judgments. Irrational

[00:03:12] judgments lead to new experience. So these were his, well the three first sentences of his

[00:03:19] sentences of conceptual art published in 1969. King Leia says it, nothing comes from nothing

[00:03:27] an art feeds off of other art in a complex way that is irreducible to the sterile notion

[00:03:33] of influence. We create together and we create in our time and we also resonate with other

[00:03:40] former times and perhaps even with the future. So in this episode we start by chatting about

[00:03:47] Yoko Ono's persona, what is said about her and the difficulties she faced as a Japanese woman

[00:03:53] in the state of the Pearl Harbor but also as a US-based avant-garde artist going back in the 60s

[00:04:01] to an experimental and high-achieving Japanese art scene. Yoko Ono's two-fust-entrucsion pieces

[00:04:08] are mentioned and it is exciting to see how music driven they were while simultaneously

[00:04:13] creating a sort of happening with performance right at the beginning of the 1950s. We stop

[00:04:20] more or less in 1962 so much has left to say about Yoko Ono's career as an artist and

[00:04:27] the exhibition itself in our second episode. So let's not waste any more time without further

[00:04:35] ado, let's dig in. Enjoy!

[00:04:57] Hello and welcome again to our humble podcast about artists seen through their exhibitions.

[00:05:15] With me, Joanna Pia Nevers and my lovely co-hosts. We are devoted to this format of the exhibition

[00:05:22] because it allows for an experience you literally cannot have anywhere else. It can be

[00:05:27] uncomfortable, emotional, rigorous, chaotic, powerful and I think the exhibition we are about

[00:05:36] to explore is a very good example of it but it will always be challenging, good challenging.

[00:05:43] That's why we have to talk about these exhibitions for you, Alessna, to go on a journey with

[00:05:48] us where we will not shy away from questions both very dumb and hopefully a bit deep as

[00:05:53] well. Comments and anecdotes. I am said lovely co-hosts, Emily Harding thanks for that

[00:06:00] Joanna in art lover and an exhibition goer and it's true exhibitions are that once

[00:06:07] in a lifetime kind of moment and they're different every time you go even if you're going

[00:06:11] to the same one so it's a really great way to experience art and have a great chat about

[00:06:19] it. But first what was your weekly culture like Joanna? Well, as you know my week was culture

[00:06:27] so this was my big week of the year where we opened and closed the Drawing Now Art Fair

[00:06:34] Week so I am the artistic director of Drawing Now Art Fair and so we had lots of artists,

[00:06:40] galleries, talks, two exhibitions and it was absolutely delightful. The week has been about drawing

[00:06:48] which was absolutely fantastic. We had the exhibition of Suzanne Uski so Suzanne won the prize

[00:06:56] the Drawing Now Art Fair Prize last year so one of the great advantages of that prize is that

[00:07:02] you get an exhibition at the Drawing Lab the year after during the fair so I visited her exhibition

[00:07:09] and it was absolutely lovely. It was a sort of scientific style drawing an exploration or a

[00:07:17] comment on the scientific drawing and she dedicated the exhibition to bevers and their impact on

[00:07:24] the ecosystem but also the impacts of agriculture on their ecosystem so that was incredibly

[00:07:32] powerful. Yeah, very interesting I learned a lot so from the 12th century onwards we basically

[00:07:39] destroyed the ecosystem that the beavers were building because they wilds. They create forests

[00:07:44] around them and they also have an impact on the water and so they kind of create these very

[00:07:50] damp moist ecosystems and then everything grows around them and from the 12th century or

[00:07:56] onward we completely destroyed that. I mean in the UK they're starting to reintroduce them

[00:08:01] actually into the wild. Ealing here where I live yeah they just reintroduced beavers and I love

[00:08:09] beavers, I was so excited because everyone sent me the post on Instagram because it's just thank you

[00:08:15] Suzanne Uski was incredible Suzanne Huski without the accent was incredible to she's a French artist

[00:08:23] to see the exhibition was really lovely and then I'm also excited to say that we unveiled

[00:08:29] the winner of the prize this year and it's the Polish artist Tatiana Wolska. I'm very happy about

[00:08:37] that but I have to say that this year we had a great lineup of only women so five women including

[00:08:43] a cartoonist Catherine Mouris who is the only survivor of the Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack I don't

[00:08:50] know if you remember that she was late. Oh my god and she once you arrive there you know everything

[00:08:57] was called and off and you know they were there and yeah it was quite quite a big thing for her but

[00:09:02] she is an incredible artist in her own terms there was also a great friend who's a terrific artist

[00:09:09] Marine Pagès I mean anyone could have won the prize to be very honest prizes are strange

[00:09:14] and I also finally was so so delighted to work with Inji Evina who's this great Turkish artist

[00:09:23] had a solo show at the Mison La Creture Damna through our partnership with the Fracti Cardi

[00:09:30] which is the only collection in the fract which are regional art funds in every region of France

[00:09:36] that is dedicated to contemporary drawing and through this partnership we did an exhibition there

[00:09:42] and Inji is an incredible artist she's in her 60s and she has an amazing journey into arts

[00:09:49] and she represented Turkey at the 2019 Venice Biennial it was an honor to work with her it was so

[00:09:57] impactful it was really really fantastic so yeah my week was culture it was very very tiring by

[00:10:03] the way I have to say for our listeners sake because they're probably thinking something changed

[00:10:09] about their voices yeah we are ill you and I we're very sick after drawing now I always get sick

[00:10:17] but this time it was it's quite it's been quite a week and for youtube I'm like oh my gosh yeah

[00:10:25] totally which is why my week in culture has been television but before before before before

[00:10:33] we do that I mean so if people are interested in drawing now how do they find out more about drawing

[00:10:41] oh yeah that's a very good question so we have a website so bear in mind it is an art fair so it

[00:10:49] is like any other art fair like trees but it is specifically about drawing in an expanded sense you

[00:10:56] can find ceramics you can find videos animations also drawings on paper so we are an event

[00:11:03] a yearly event always the last week of March every year in Paris at the Carrodjou Tomp

[00:11:11] and we also do round tables we always curate one exhibition at least at least one in the in the space

[00:11:19] of the Carrodjou Tomp and it's an opportunity to travel worldwide while being in a very small

[00:11:27] space with 73 galleries from all over the world who are presenting what their artists do best

[00:11:35] and like cutting edge contemporary drawing so that's where you can find us at the Carrodjou Tomp

[00:11:41] or explore our website we have a youtube channel as well drawing now art fair where you have

[00:11:46] all the talks we've done since the beginning artist interviews it's really really interesting

[00:11:52] yeah it is really cool and I mean are there that many forums that focus on drawing?

[00:11:59] well not really to be very fair the first ever drawing art fair was the Salon du Descent which

[00:12:09] is which happens at the same time as us and they've existed for 50 years I think so a long

[00:12:16] long time but they focus on old masters and until modernism so we are the only art fair that

[00:12:25] really is dedicated to contemporary drawing and then after us so we've we've existed for 17 years

[00:12:32] I've been working as an artistic director there since 2018 and now there are other art fairs

[00:12:40] dedicated to drawing like art on paper and Brussels paper positions in Germany and Switzerland

[00:12:47] there are other art fairs we are the bigger sorry this is really we are we'll be able to

[00:12:55] I am going to put it out there we are the biggest we are a human sized art fair because we only have

[00:13:03] about 73 galleries our Brussels which is in a few weeks has 175 galleries so we're quite small

[00:13:12] but big enough for people to spend three days with us like people where I think we're one of the

[00:13:18] only art fairs where people come and go and they come on the first day they come on the second day

[00:13:23] then they come during the weekend with some friends it really is a meeting point because

[00:13:28] it is dedicated to a medium now amazing brilliant wow I feel like I'm being I was interviewed quite a

[00:13:35] lot the last week and the weeks before if you like I'm doing the final interview but thank you

[00:13:43] Emily for letting me plug my my art fair yeah totally no it's so impressive and yeah I mean I

[00:13:51] I haven't been but one day Joanna one day I shall make it Emily in 2025 we'll we'll we'll hook you up

[00:14:00] amazing um so yeah so my weekend culture what did you do laid on the sofa? What did you do

[00:14:08] and did a whole lot of nothing I coughed I sneezed I blew my nose

[00:14:15] your nose yeah and then had to put like chapstick on my nose because it was so worn down from all of it

[00:14:23] four thing I'm not there yet I'm not there yet I'll get the the Kleenex with the alo that's the way to go

[00:14:32] oh sponsor us please yeah exactly Kleenex with balsam they're just tender on the nose and just exactly

[00:14:41] what you need when you have a cold yeah and we you won't need chapstick after a while I mean

[00:14:48] I still did I gotta say I still did have to put a little dab on there but um now now now there goes

[00:14:55] the sponsoring yeah so yeah so I later on in the sofa and watched a lot of television Atlanta have

[00:15:02] you seen Atlanta I have not and I loved Donald Glover so I need to do not get on

[00:15:10] would you not love Donald Glover so yeah so Atlanta is the one that he did before that I don't know

[00:15:15] there's four seasons of it and I don't know if if they're making it all right it might be done

[00:15:20] what's it about it's unlike that's the thing Joanna is it's tough to say what it's about so it's

[00:15:27] not plot driven okay I'm curious in the first episode it's about a rapper and that's a me then

[00:15:33] Atlanta it's about a rapper in Atlanta broadly and his crew is you know kind of his family

[00:15:40] and friends and I mean that's the very broad context for it in the first episode there's a shooting

[00:15:48] and he think oh wow it's gonna it's like the shooting is never talked about it like it is not about

[00:15:55] that you know it's like right in the first episode it's like we're gonna do this and you're gonna

[00:16:00] think it's gonna like the consequences of this big event that happens in the first season is

[00:16:05] gonna be what this is about guess what it's not you know so it's not plot driven there aren't like

[00:16:10] huge character arcs there's some people progress and things happen and choices are made but it's

[00:16:17] not about that even the main cast doesn't appear in every episode there are episodes that have nothing

[00:16:24] to do with the main characters but it still works so it's about a lot of things but race is a

[00:16:31] central feature it's a show that for me I just didn't feel like it was trying to convince me of

[00:16:37] anything about race it wasn't trying to moralize about race although it certainly you know would

[00:16:45] have license to for sure but it's just like presenting realities and ideas that welcomes a viewer in

[00:16:53] to be like huh right it's unapologetically what it is is almost makes it feel like it is something

[00:17:01] that's trying to do something to you but it does it in such a light way like it's holding it all

[00:17:09] so lightly and if you haven't seen community community he was an actor on that show he wasn't a

[00:17:16] creator yes yes on that show but that show has a has a lot of magical realism in there and just

[00:17:24] absurd tangents of and Atlanta has that too I mean parts of it are very real you know kind of in

[00:17:32] this these people's lives but a lot of it is sort of reality adjacent and kind of slips things

[00:17:41] in that way in a very very clever and imaginative way but yeah it's so good it's so I mean you must

[00:17:49] must check it I'm gonna put this on the must list it's making me think of beef I loved beef

[00:17:55] and the tension the kind of eroticism of really hating someone is so well explored because

[00:18:04] they really hate each other there's no like because at a certain point I thought this was going to

[00:18:08] go in the direction of them finally loving each other but no no they hate each other from beginning

[00:18:16] to end because they're from opposing social drives and and economic drives and conflict is such a

[00:18:25] timely thing to be talking about cool so in the vein of conflict we could just give

[00:18:32] peace of choice and oh well done good to like or was that a segue of segues yeah so um yeah we

[00:18:43] could imagine peace and yeah talk about the exhibition for Elizabeth's yes we haven't unveiled

[00:18:50] the name of the artist yet although it is the name of the episode so it will come as no surprise

[00:18:56] we will be talking about the Japanese American artist yoga oh no she's a person of contrast

[00:19:02] she is very self-presessed I mean one of the most self-presessed women of the 50s and 60s

[00:19:09] it brings kind of Hillary Clinton to mind it's like you know someone who is you know has that

[00:19:14] self-possession and is hated for it you know I mean and it's hated she hated for it she had that

[00:19:21] times 10 plus she was Japanese on top of it you know so yeah she's incredible yeah like totally

[00:19:28] self-presessed yeah very self-presessed but also self-effacing and not in a submissive way so

[00:19:36] the fact that she's self-effacing is because for her there's nothing more important than art

[00:19:43] and that's it it's not the authorship it's not the artist who are behind the art art is the most

[00:19:49] important thing for her and what's really striking is that in the catalog and the catalog of

[00:19:55] the exhibition which is called a music of the mind by the way it's really well done the catalog's

[00:20:01] really good and you can see lots of photographs of her in the exhibition in the catalog and she's

[00:20:09] always opaque that she has this aura of unpenetrability you cannot know she's just standing there

[00:20:20] for the sake of the art so it's really tricky to do some research about her and not engage with

[00:20:30] the personas that were created for her but because for lots of people she's the person who broke up

[00:20:35] the Beatles which is absolutely true it's totally not true yeah it's so interesting because that

[00:20:40] is the over you know from an American perspective I don't know maybe others as well it's like

[00:20:45] that is the overriding narrative about her and you know it's like a new friend of mine

[00:20:52] grew up in the States from when he was 11 but is not from there and he was like yeah when I was

[00:20:58] a kid you know love the Beatles and that was you know that was what I thought of her like

[00:21:02] Buu Yoko Oh no because she broke up the Beatles and you know he's not white and he's like and now

[00:21:08] looking at it and it's like that was so racist you know it's like but I totally didn't see it at

[00:21:13] the time because I was just you know absolutely blinded by the pervasiveness of this theory

[00:21:22] and it's just and a misogyny not true yeah totally racism it's ugly all of it and now she's got

[00:21:30] the whole cocktail yeah yeah and now he's like it just can't even believe I you know signed up to that

[00:21:37] but you felt for that yeah but that was the culture because along alongside that she's also

[00:21:45] the most notorious Japanese female celebrity of the 60s the 70s and the 80s so she was known

[00:21:52] for being an eccentric in the best case scenario honestly like this was the best thing you could say

[00:21:58] about her or a vicious hag or which she was called the witch in the press it's just this is not

[00:22:05] things that people would shout at her because they would shout chink like that's the thing she got

[00:22:09] in the UK and in America so not even kind of realizing why exactly she came from but she was in

[00:22:16] the press she was called the witch yeah you can go back I watched this Joan Rivers episode where

[00:22:24] she interviewed people who worked with her as assistants including Amy Peng who just released

[00:22:32] a documentary about her week with John Lennon which was not a weekend which was not a week one

[00:22:37] and what's much more than that and the way they talk about her they even talk about the fact

[00:22:43] that she wanted to eat her own placenta when she had her child which is something that everybody

[00:22:49] does now you freeze your placenta you turn it into pills and it's apparently really good for your

[00:22:54] health but she that was the witchy thing like she was a witch she wanted to eat her placenta which

[00:23:02] is something that now everyone is talking about and there's like a very big um phenomenon of women

[00:23:11] and even doctors suggesting to just keep the placenta and turn it into pills or you know whatever

[00:23:16] put it in food I haven't done that yeah but it is a thing and it's taken seriously now for many

[00:23:25] people but of course she was a witch because she wanted to and they were releasing like really

[00:23:32] private things about her life as if it was a given because she was not a person yeah she was

[00:23:38] she's a witch for her yeah exactly and an old woman so a witch yeah and I the in the

[00:23:45] upper grabs in the exhibition they have listening booths where you can hear some of her recordings

[00:23:51] and music and there was a piece of music that it was a live show and she was talking before

[00:23:57] this song began and she said something to the effect of you know when I first got here I was a

[00:24:04] bitch and that's who I was I was this bitch who broke up the Beatles and now I've graduated to a witch

[00:24:12] and she's like so now I have way more power you know and she was just having she said that and

[00:24:19] I think about yeah I mean but I mean there was so many recordings right it's like that just

[00:24:25] happened yeah yeah the exhibition was full of stuff yeah I'm gonna go back anyway but um it's

[00:24:32] funny because the other day so my son my queer son uses the word bitch a lot which is obviously

[00:24:38] something that you know gay men or bisexual men do and I keep telling him you know that doesn't

[00:24:44] sit well with me that much I don't claim I don't reclaim that word I was looking at him I was like

[00:24:51] anyway we need we need witches not bitches and now my daughter was there and she's like oh I'm gonna

[00:24:57] I'm gonna get that but actually Yoko Ono did it first which I think is something we're gonna say a lot

[00:25:03] in this episode Yoko Ono did it first and you know I'm not very tempted by these first

[00:25:09] isms of art history but I think with Yoko Ono is so blatant that she was so she was the avant-garde

[00:25:17] of the avant-garde but not only her also Japan Japanese avant-garde was way more interesting

[00:25:25] than the the American avant-garde in the in the 60s in the beginning of the 60s yeah it was more

[00:25:31] at the end of the 60s and beginning of the 70s that things really developed in America and in Japan

[00:25:37] my gosh you know so many things were happening anyway I just want to address also this thing

[00:25:43] this documentary of Amy Peng so it's out there and it's about an affair that John Lennon had

[00:25:51] with his assistant at the request of Yoko Ono herself so it starts like that so Yoko Ono

[00:25:57] asks Amy to have a relationship with to have an affair with John Lennon because he was

[00:26:04] straining he was not he was unbalanced again and so it starts and the documentary is about

[00:26:11] their side of the story while exposing kind of going back in time and reframing Yoko Ono again as

[00:26:19] a sort of a witchy creature while John Lennon was finally free and finally having fun

[00:26:27] and I against this documentary not against but in confrontation with this or in complement to

[00:26:34] this documentary I would suggest listening to an episode of the great great podcast by Sarah

[00:26:41] Marshall you're wrong about that really focuses on this idea that Yoko Ono broke the Beatles

[00:26:49] but also focuses on John Lennon himself because we are very guilty of treating John Lennon as a

[00:26:55] sort of a baby who was constantly manipulated by Yoko Ono but also perhaps Amy Peng who knows

[00:27:03] you know and he was the man with agency yeah he had a very powerful white man is suddenly given

[00:27:12] no agency and his son no agency subjects to the winds and influence of a couple of women and so

[00:27:20] that's turning it down its head interesting right so that episode is really interesting I think Amy

[00:27:26] Peng's documentary is very interesting as well and there's another documentary which is the

[00:27:34] I think it got the prize here at home as the most boring documentary ever made about the most

[00:27:40] exciting interesting compelling event of the 80s which is the Apple TV documentary about John

[00:27:48] Lennon's assassination I watched the most boring 10 minutes of that I watched and yeah I did more

[00:27:56] and you did good yeah yeah it's a snooze fest it's just how can you turn something so

[00:28:04] you know crucially important have such an important phenomenon into something so boring and also it's

[00:28:12] like I don't know I think that so many people like really care about like there's people who still

[00:28:17] go to the Dakota and go to the Imagine Memorial in Central Park and all of it but since we're

[00:28:24] going we're talking about John Lennon one of the things I think that we that I wanted to highlight is

[00:28:31] that Yokohono was a full blown artist with quite a following when she met him so she was an artist

[00:28:42] in her own right she had a career which is something that people forget a lot about her

[00:28:48] she was invited to do a show in a very important gallery in London and that's how she met him

[00:28:54] a solo show by the way which for a Japanese American artist was quite the achievement

[00:29:01] and also another thing is that when she met John Lennon I think the question to ask

[00:29:10] to her as an artist by that point or from that point onward is also I mean the relationship

[00:29:18] she had with celebrity as a visual artist and I feel that she really believed that she could use

[00:29:25] celebrity to propagate her message and I think she was very naive in her relationship to celebrity

[00:29:35] she seems to have been quite naive about it and not read and fall into the caveats of such

[00:29:42] a relationship you know she felt really ugly she felt bad in the relationship everybody would

[00:29:50] tell her that she wasn't deserving of such a beautiful man which in hindsight kind of think

[00:29:54] beautiful really she's gorgeous yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well okay

[00:30:01] it maybe it's something of the time you know gorgeous and we don't want to call anyone ugly

[00:30:06] He was also gorgeous for sure, but I mean honestly she was such a powerful woman, charismatic woman.

[00:30:14] So I think there's also that aspect that I would love to, if we have time, sure we will,

[00:30:19] that I'd love to explore with you as well. But anyway, let's go back to the beginnings

[00:30:27] you know, to Yoko Ono as a child. You know, she had a very peculiar upbringing.

[00:30:37] She was born into a family of wealth and privilege who lived in a rarefied atmosphere

[00:30:45] of not only money but also intellectual endeavors. So she her father wanted to be a jazz musician.

[00:30:54] He was all about music and her mother was fascinated by her father because of that.

[00:31:01] Her great-grandfather, a Tsushi-sai-show, was convinced that they had an ancestor

[00:31:08] which was a ninth century founder of a radical Buddhist sect that contributed to overthrow

[00:31:15] the old tradition of feudal military dictatorship or shoguns and restored the role of the emperor.

[00:31:23] And so this ancestor was quite, you know, he was quite engaged in politics but also had a vision

[00:31:32] of how to be a Buddhist, how to be, how to connect faith to power etc. So she was growing up

[00:31:41] in the sort of kind of aspirational setting where it was all about being a virtuoso pianist.

[00:31:50] It was all about knowing poetry, knowing the classics. It was a family that was very oriented

[00:31:59] towards art but they were also very demanding and not very caring as parents. So Yoko Ono

[00:32:08] from a very... She made me think of Nino Simone who wanted to be concert pianists and was always

[00:32:15] told that black woman could never achieve that role. And Yoko Ono wanted to be a concert pianist

[00:32:22] so that's what she wanted to do and her father regularly, as she was growing up,

[00:32:27] was would check on her fingers to see if she had the hands of a pianist and kept telling her

[00:32:34] you're not going to make it, you don't have it. Thank you Father. And Father Dearest.

[00:32:44] And then when she moved on to think, okay if I can't be a pianist maybe I can be a composer,

[00:32:51] he told her women cannot be composers like you can't do it. So on one side she had

[00:32:58] like a very interesting father who was really into music, was into culture but at the same time

[00:33:05] emotionally he was completely disconnected from her and had no... even the remotest idea of supporting

[00:33:13] her as an artist. And then her mum criticized her looks and told her repeatedly that she was very

[00:33:21] lucky to have such a beautiful mum. And would never touch her, like would not hug her, like the same

[00:33:28] Marina Brahmavic scenario where they were very very distant. So she had quite a weird upbringing

[00:33:36] but she also had a Russian aunt, I forget her name, Vervorah something who introduced

[00:33:43] constructivism in Japan. Wow. So you know she had an incredible family to be very honest which is

[00:33:51] also very... which is also a very ambivalent relationship to family isn't it where you have a

[00:33:57] family who kind of feeds you culturally but then emotionally is completely vacant. So that was

[00:34:03] her life and you know her father was very turn towards United States so they went back and forth

[00:34:09] between the States and Japan when the war broke with China in 37, they went back, they were in

[00:34:16] San Francisco, they went back to Tokyo. So there were kind of two in and throwing between the United

[00:34:21] States and Japan until finally the second world war broke in Japan and they were there or they

[00:34:29] went back there and they even though they were wealthy people, they lived a horrible life. They had

[00:34:37] to flee Tokyo, they went into the countryside and this is a crucial moment for the artist Yoko

[00:34:45] Ono because she remembers lying down in some shack looking at the sky and devising menus with her

[00:34:57] brother because they were so hungry they had nothing to eat. They were so hungry that they were just

[00:35:02] dream of menus and she says that was my first art piece, that was the first time where I knew

[00:35:09] that through imagination I could get somewhere and she also realized that no matter what the sky is

[00:35:17] always there for you and it's always producing images for you and it's always imagining too she.

[00:35:23] It's going to stay there, it's all the people eating sushi. So I have a quote from her,

[00:35:36] I realized even then that just through imagining we can be happy so we had our conceptual dinner

[00:35:43] and this is maybe my first piece of art. So I think this encapsulates her personality

[00:35:51] and encapsulates who she is. Yeah, which is art is everything in this situation of hunger

[00:36:00] and we've explored lots of artists who have gone through that including Gihar Hichita's last

[00:36:06] episode. This attitude is a Yoko Ono art will save you, you can't eat but if you imagine art

[00:36:13] you can't, if you imagine a piece of sushi you can be happy. Yeah and what I like about that too

[00:36:20] is like even though she was so you know had this emotional vacuum that she was growing up

[00:36:27] with in her parents, I guess not vacuum. I mean there were a lot of emotions that are just not warm

[00:36:33] caring ones and what a loving thing to do for her little brother you know. I mean she's obviously

[00:36:41] trying to take him to a better place for a really difficult time. That's really you know such an

[00:36:48] act of love that she's doing for brother and if that's where her art came from you know kind of what

[00:36:56] what she's trying to do with other people and strangers and anyone who encounters her art is to

[00:37:02] you know carry them to a better place and I think that's one of the things too that really defines her

[00:37:08] art is that optimism and that turning towards something better and more fruitful for everyone

[00:37:17] not just oneself which is yeah a through-life. That's a really good point you're making actually

[00:37:24] because she was with her brother, she was caring for someone else so she was also taking her brother

[00:37:31] into that journey and she was not alone when she was creating her first piece which of course

[00:37:37] is something that she said afterwards. She realized afterwards and it is true and I think that's

[00:37:43] one of the things we'll be talking about that she's one of the few artists who is not representing

[00:37:49] the world who is not trying to create a relationship with the world as it is she's trying to change

[00:37:58] the world through art and she's very criticized for it she's considered to be a bit polyannish

[00:38:05] you know and I think there's nothing wrong with that and it's actually very much of the time

[00:38:11] conceptual art really wanted to put a dent into the real world. It was not about representing

[00:38:20] it was about presenting possibilities and opening up horizons and for sure she's this episode really

[00:38:28] makes you think of that and also of how independent she was so she was very independent she always had

[00:38:35] even when she was still in Japan she enrolled in the philosophy class course and she had a number

[00:38:45] of love affairs including I think with one or two professors so she was always and I think it's

[00:38:51] also typical of the time when you were a woman who was independent he was trying to achieve something

[00:38:57] in a space where there was male oriented obviously one of the ways to connect to men was through

[00:39:05] love affairs and intimacy which is absolutely understandable she was a woman with desires

[00:39:11] and I love that about her and she's always an apologetic about that totally and not to like psycho

[00:39:16] analyze but it's like if you don't have much intimacy growing up I imagine that's a pretty you

[00:39:22] know that's a good way to get it you know that can feel like a good way to get it

[00:39:28] yeah proactive way of getting what you need and I think she's very good at that

[00:39:33] so her family after this really tough period in Japan went back to New York where she started

[00:39:41] at Sarah Lawrence so it's a private liberal arts college there was quite cutting edge so super

[00:39:48] experimental and it was girls only so she studied English with Catherine Mansel poetry with Alistair

[00:39:56] Reed and she did painting photography cinema performance of video and sometimes even mixing genres

[00:40:04] and when you think about it and when you think about art schools now you kind of think wow

[00:40:09] there was there was something happening there and so bearing mindlessness were still in 1953

[00:40:17] and she creates her first artwork which is called secret peace and so it says decide on one note

[00:40:26] you want to play so still very much connected with music played with the following accompaniment

[00:40:32] the woods from 5 a.m. to 9 a.m. in summer so this was 1953 and what is really interesting and I'm

[00:40:43] always a curator I'm always fascinated by where the visual arts so where artists who produce

[00:40:50] visual artwork come from they don't always go to fine art school and Yoko Ono very much comes

[00:40:58] from the idea of scores and the idea of poetry and especially an overall music that was her thing

[00:41:08] and it's really interesting to see that she goes into instruction art through the idea of the

[00:41:14] school so I was really fascinating another thing that I read was the way she was perceived going

[00:41:22] back to what I was saying regarding her opacity and the fact that she was not a collective person

[00:41:31] she's full of contradictions because she's always concerned with humanity but then she is a very

[00:41:39] solitary person and quite mysterious yeah you can't imagine her sort of joining the sorority

[00:41:44] on campus I mean it's like that would be the entrances of her vibe yeah she has that lonely

[00:41:55] or can yeah independent kind of vibe doesn't she and she's a not a girl school and she had been before

[00:42:03] involved in philosophy so in the pretty much male oriented world so perhaps she wasn't and also

[00:42:11] the education she had had such a privileged education the experience of the war and the nuclear

[00:42:17] bomb when she was 12 I mean all of that will make for someone arriving in New York and having had

[00:42:23] 300 lives compared to all the people who were at school with her so she was described so Maya

[00:42:30] Kupferman says she was particularly adept the best in class she is a high achiever and he recalls

[00:42:39] evidence of a strong intensity she was tightly put together an intent on doing well the other

[00:42:46] students were more relaxed she wasn't relaxed ever at the same time she was a shadow figure on

[00:42:53] campus when you focused on her she was fine but then she sort of disappeared like a phantom

[00:43:00] which is her yeah what a good description and you can see how you know right never met her

[00:43:08] but like that feels exactly right she was described as sweet opaque ghostly ethereal and intelligent

[00:43:17] by her teachers she did another work at the time so this is in the 50s okay so we're still in

[00:43:25] the 50s which was called lighting peace and it's the peace that starts the exhibition I mean there's

[00:43:32] something before as you enter like an on the wall right as you enter that you that you have to walk

[00:43:37] along on the left to go into the first room but the first piece that we see as a video in video

[00:43:45] form is lighting peace where she sat next to a piano and she would light matches and watch them

[00:43:53] burn so that's one of the first pieces as well and it's one that starts the exhibition as well yeah

[00:44:00] and I mean I was just gonna say and I mean that piece in particular it's it's video it's performance

[00:44:06] but it's also instruction it's kind of one of her first instruction pieces maybe I don't know if

[00:44:13] I have that totally right if it's one of her first but I mean it's um one of her early instructions

[00:44:21] at least and the instruction was light a match and watch it till it goes out so it's something

[00:44:27] that she performed in video but then also you know wanted anybody who came along to perform on

[00:44:34] their own wherever and then she performed it loads of times um through her career but it also included

[00:44:43] a concert of an audible sounds and sounds that reach the sky and breaths so she imagined a score again

[00:44:52] kind of linking back to music going through all of this and so she noted in in this this lighting

[00:45:02] I wanted most things to be performed in the dark therefore asking the audience to stretch

[00:45:07] their imaginations so again putting it all back on excuse me you the attendee for participation

[00:45:17] thank you so much for talking about that because that's gonna allow me to make a leap into 1962

[00:45:24] so she eventually married to she each yanagi use a famous composer a japanese composer

[00:45:34] and all the works that she's preparing at Sarah Lawrence including the one you mentioned

[00:45:40] which is made of inaudible sounds because they're either too high too high pitched in some ways

[00:45:48] or impossible to hear in terms of armophology and she performed in a very famous concert place that

[00:45:57] was supposed to be experimental already in 1962 so one of the things that I think is really important

[00:46:03] to say is how incredibly advanced Japan was in terms of experimental art in all areas visual arts

[00:46:11] cinema music every poetry I mean the good time movement was being born that time in another city

[00:46:19] in Japan I mean it was really really intense and therefore this was received not as a sort of

[00:46:27] oddity but you know people were waiting to see what she was going to do and she went so she was

[00:46:34] there after having been in New York with her husband performing that piece and she was with John

[00:46:40] Cage so she came to Japan also to accompany John Cage they were quite close after having had a

[00:46:47] period in New York where she was she started to to know people in the art world including George

[00:46:53] Mousunas who was the person who developed the fluxes movement and so she went to Japan she performed

[00:47:00] that and in the press it was written that her work was derivative that concert you're talking about

[00:47:07] was derivative and was Kajian and Toshi Ichinagi who she was drifting away from you know they were

[00:47:17] drifting away romantically but they were very much close in terms of artistic endeavors and artistic

[00:47:25] sensibility defended her basically what the what the journalist was saying is that she was copying John

[00:47:32] Cage which is really incredible because John Cage had been learning about Buddhism with Professor

[00:47:38] Suzuki in America so if anyone was derivative yeah it was the you know the the American artist who

[00:47:48] were actually learning about Buddhism and incorporating Buddhist you know premises in their work

[00:47:56] but she actually was raised in that well her family was Catholic again like that her family

[00:48:01] was so odd her family was Catholic but she she grew up in the Buddhist country so obviously she

[00:48:06] knew much more about anything and she did incorporate Buddhists thought into her work and so Ichinagi

[00:48:14] defended her and said that this had nothing to do with 433 which was four minutes 33 seconds

[00:48:23] in silence thus validating all the other sounds that you can hear in the concert hall so John Cage's

[00:48:30] piece whereas with her it was all about the sounds that reached the sky and other sounds that

[00:48:37] could not reach your ears so she was producing sound she was not making you listen to the sound

[00:48:42] of the room at all so they missed the point and of course they had to accuse the only woman

[00:48:51] doing something in that concert hall you know or one of the only women as being derivative

[00:48:57] of a Western artist yeah it's likely so and it's I mean you think of like how what a big

[00:49:05] influence John Cage was even on a lot of the artists we've talked about on this podcast in terms

[00:49:11] of yes Philip Gustin I mean even even Dito Morayama I mean but it's like they're I mean none of them

[00:49:21] were like oh you're just ripping off some other guy you know even though they were kind of doing

[00:49:25] things in a different format but yeah I know this I mean of course I mean of course she had to be

[00:49:32] accused yeah it's like even way before John Lennon she was getting in the neck you know this this woman

[00:49:39] for her all the time she was going about it and the photography is actually still going today

[00:49:46] is just a huge monument to her inner strength I mean so many people would have been like you know what

[00:49:53] I don't know maybe it's just not worth it maybe I'll just have a quiet life live it out here in the

[00:49:58] Dakota I'm good you know I mean but yeah it's just continuing and that's yeah that is really

[00:50:06] yeah impressive I mean she started out her life unrecognized and unselibrated by her parents

[00:50:12] by her own family and she went off just doing whatever she wanted to do because when she enrolled

[00:50:17] in philosophy class she was very criticized when she wrote nonfiction they would tell her it was

[00:50:24] too narrative when she wrote fiction they would tell her it was too much out of the bounds of

[00:50:29] what fiction writing was supposed to be I mean she never really felt at home and I think Sarah

[00:50:36] Lawrence was probably the only place where she could really develop her creativity but it was

[00:50:41] the same thing when she was in New York so before going to Japan she started I'm not sure I'm getting

[00:50:47] this one right was it before or after I think was probably after this beginning of the 60s time

[00:50:54] period so she went back to New York and she started welcoming people with her composer husband

[00:51:02] into her into their loft and they would do these performances she would do her paintings you know

[00:51:08] kind of like interactive or yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

[00:51:16] and then start putting like Japanese characters and ink over it and then lighting it on fire

[00:51:22] and everybody was like oh my god I'm not high you know but this is so the chamber street stuff

[00:51:27] I think this is incredible and I think I think this just again goes to the heart of what she is and

[00:51:34] when when we came to the chamber street stuff in the exhibition because I had no idea that she was

[00:51:40] just like throwing up in the doors to these avant-garde artists in New York at that time and maybe

[00:51:47] this was pre-factory could this have been pre-factory I mean it was really sure maybe the same time yeah

[00:51:54] it was yeah but I mean factory was 1963 right so it was kind of developing at the same time

[00:52:03] yeah yeah but even still as you say for a woman to kind of be at the forefront of doing that

[00:52:11] is is is incredible this is where I started to think of her differently because to be honest

[00:52:17] it's like her work has never it's had I've had a hard time relating to her work

[00:52:24] but when because very cerebral and what does it want me to do and this doesn't feel like

[00:52:30] you're trying that hard what are you producing here Yoko Ono you're producing an instruction

[00:52:35] for me to do something is this art you know and I mean I've had all of this kind of

[00:52:40] all you making what are you making exactly what are you performing perform for me come on

[00:52:47] and I mean you know so it's like I went to this this exhibition in Minneapolis years and years ago

[00:52:55] and I remember there was a room and it had some kind of like tuning fork in it and it was like

[00:53:06] you know you just need to hit the tuning fork and I just want to be like I'm gonna feel that

[00:53:11] like what what is this supposed to be so anyway so lots of cerebral kind of like overload which

[00:53:18] I frankly get in a lot of exhibitions you know especially with contemporary art you know my brain

[00:53:25] goes into overdrive it's like what is this you know I don't get it you know in my the questions

[00:53:31] roll in and I just have to let that sort of intellectual vomit just pass you know I just need to

[00:53:40] let it out let it go and then I just need to and then I can kind of sit with whatever it is the

[00:53:48] artist wants me to sit with and then maybe I can feel something I would call I would call that

[00:53:54] an intellectual panic I think conceptual arts really sets up the audience to first of all

[00:54:05] be very very discombobulated and then go into a slight panic of what the hell is this yeah you

[00:54:13] know what is this what are you doing what why do you want me to do something what are you doing

[00:54:18] what's so great about this you know I made it so it's like but when when I when I read about the

[00:54:26] Chamber of Street stuff I started to Chamber Street just to just to explain for our listeners is

[00:54:34] the loft that she shared with her composer husband and where she started welcoming lots of people from

[00:54:42] John Cage, Philip Glass, Jasper Johns, Robert Roush and Berg, David Tudor, Terry Ryler and very

[00:54:51] importantly Le Monter Young because they became quite close afterwards yeah and so loads of avant-garde

[00:54:58] artists at the time to this loft to just explore art and performances to just explore art together can

[00:55:04] you imagine doing that nowadays people will be like what are we what are you doing can we have a

[00:55:10] dinner you know more than I can you're doing the roasts yeah well yeah so this apparently doesn't

[00:55:16] happen anymore then I mean it was happening at school or something right I mean I think that

[00:55:22] we've come to a place in the art world that is very conservative and it's getting harder and harder

[00:55:28] to convey conceptual practices and to get together around art and that's how not to plug it you know

[00:55:39] I didn't create drawing now outfit it wasn't my invention just work for them and I really love

[00:55:44] drawing now because of that because you end up talking about drawing and you seem very passionate

[00:55:49] people really wanting to talk about the art what they've seen in the gallery boots the talks we do

[00:55:56] the round tables always end up with people meeting each other going after for coffees to talk about

[00:56:01] what they're doing and it's becoming more and more rare to have that kind of event and shout out to

[00:56:08] a very good friend who haven't seen in a long long time called Pierre Luguyon he's an amazing artist

[00:56:14] and he did this thing called la promesse de l'écran the promise of the screen and he would set up

[00:56:25] a screen so there would be a screen where he would project he would invite artists to

[00:56:30] propose videos that's where Diogo did his first performance so the screen for Diogo was the sheet

[00:56:38] of paper that he folded turned into a cube and made his first cube performance which you can see

[00:56:43] and then do check it out Diogo Pimentao plugging in my husband's work I'm wearing a bit like

[00:56:50] Yoko Onan John Lennon basically totally and and so in the middle of the so you'd have the screening

[00:56:58] or the performance or whatever and then the screen would lift up and there was a bar behind it

[00:57:04] and so people would drink but because they had just experienced something together it was one of the

[00:57:09] first arts experiences I had where people were really talking about the work and there was such a

[00:57:17] bit I'm not a very big small talker so for me was like one of the happiest places you know

[00:57:24] I experienced when I lived in Paris this was around 2006 2007 and was so so pleasant but it's

[00:57:31] very rare actually because in the art world everyone's anxious they want to prove that they're doing

[00:57:36] something that they're you know that they're progressing in the right direction or they want

[00:57:42] you to go and see their exhibition and this you know so it's all about plugging stuff and not really

[00:57:47] talking about the art and so in this time I mean of course this was a phenomenon of the time as well

[00:57:56] there were no there was no social media TV was crap people would get together people

[00:58:00] were out in the streets demonstrating they were out in the streets fighting for civil rights you know

[00:58:06] it was the time when people really got together and collectivity was a thing where you were building

[00:58:13] some a better future in some way so of course like Marina Abramovich she was all her time for sure

[00:58:20] but she started really early on and she did start at the loft culture which became so much of a thing

[00:58:27] for people like Laurie Anderson, Lou Reed even the factory I mean all of those even the cliche

[00:58:36] that you now see in films of the 80s where you know you had an artist loft with neon sculptures

[00:58:41] all the time yeah that came from there she was the first one to do that you know yeah

[00:58:47] and that's quite I mean just to link back to a point I started to make about five minutes ago I feel like

[00:58:54] she's so sorry no no no we wondered that's what it's all about we wondered yes we did

[00:59:01] I'm just mentioning and it was actually remembered to link back to it so proud of you basically wow

[00:59:09] I'm impressed yeah thank you but the but it was through the chambers through the loft stuff that

[00:59:17] made me see her as an event organizer so it's like in a way you know and it's like so it's about

[00:59:24] a welcoming people into a space and and us holding it really lightly just to see what happens

[00:59:31] to see what unfolds and I mean just to kind of you know give up give a framing but give up control

[00:59:40] you know and and and that's when I thought basically that's what I do in my job

[00:59:46] I'm an event organizer so basically and I have a husband that plays guitar same same we are the same

[00:59:55] listen it's us we are reverberate we're pursuing the tradition exactly our influence of the

[01:00:02] powerful yeah Yoko Ono has influenced us beyond our even consciousness until just now which is amazing

[01:00:11] until just now but I have to say it's like so the exhibition just to jump to the exhibition for

[01:00:16] a second I was gonna say isn't that what the exhibition is yeah but make your point so the exhibition

[01:00:24] as you mentioned before you actually get in there there's the wish trees which is something she's

[01:00:30] been doing for years and it's trees that are indoors and you can write a wish and hang in on the

[01:00:36] tree or outdoors yeah yeah and and it comes from a Buddhist tradition guys she really incorporates

[01:00:45] Buddhism into the works she did like yeah and and and first hand not through Professor Suzuki who

[01:00:53] was teaching everyone in back in the States but like through her own culture sorry yeah and

[01:00:58] the fact no for sure because that comes up again and cut piece which we'll talk about later on but

[01:01:05] but so but what I liked about that was you know having your first experience of the exhibition

[01:01:14] be something so personal and collective it puts yourself in a it like taps into your higher

[01:01:22] mind you know it's like oh what is my wish what's my great wish right now and you know looking at the

[01:01:30] wishes I mean it was wonderful I mean they were just like written in all sorts of languages and

[01:01:35] you know the the ones that I could read in English I mean were high wishes wishes for peace wishes

[01:01:42] for freedom wishes for dignity and you know freedom for Palestine and peace and you create and all

[01:01:50] you know kind of they weren't like I want to win a lottery you know I want to do a car you know it

[01:01:56] wasn't you know wishes for trivial kind of earthly things it really you know it it helps people

[01:02:04] before they even go into the exhibition to be in a frame of mind that is much different than they

[01:02:10] would be if they just plunged into lighting piece initially like that is um it's like a filter it's

[01:02:20] like she's sifting out your you know kind of you know normal everyday thoughts and she's putting

[01:02:29] everybody into a place and I think about that you know I mean on a much much lower level Joanna

[01:02:38] um I mean well Jack White's again no no we could yeah no but on a much lower level it's like I've

[01:02:45] thought about that with events that I've put together it's like you know posing oh that's not

[01:02:51] a lower level but I mean it's not an exhibition at the tape but um but like you know opening

[01:02:58] with a question to get people into a frame of mind to prime the mind for the conversation that is

[01:03:05] to come so that they might be a little bit more open or might be a little bit more expansive than

[01:03:11] they would be if they hadn't had that initial question but yeah I mean I think so you think her

[01:03:18] work is about you think her work is about togetherness yeah definitely I mean she you know she

[01:03:25] definitely has the collective and she definitely has you know her her her her respect and belief in

[01:03:33] imagination is profound and you get that the moment you know that's the first thing you get in

[01:03:41] the exhibition is what's your wish you know what like imagine you know and that yeah I mean and

[01:03:47] that's certainly something that flows through with uh with a lot of the places but it's I just think

[01:03:54] you know artist and art comes with a lot of baggage and in my mind there is that baggage like

[01:04:01] what are you creating what are you performing otherwise you know what to skill which you scale

[01:04:06] what to skill it's a lot about skill and we interpret skill I wrote a text a few years back about

[01:04:13] the idea of skill in drawing and I shifted the the attention from the skill of the line

[01:04:22] to the skill of framing whatever line you're doing or someone else would be doing like in

[01:04:29] solo wit for example where people would make his drawings not not him and the idea of skill here

[01:04:36] is very interesting because the skill is not enough sort of a technical talent that you correlate

[01:04:45] with traditional technologies of art it's somewhere else and she really is um I agree with you she

[01:04:55] I mean she says so herself it's all about letting go and she is bored with the art world she's not

[01:05:00] interested in the art world she is interested in giving the power for everyone to be an artist

[01:05:08] through the power of imagination that's what she wants to do she finds it extremely boring

[01:05:14] to um deal with the egos of artists and that's another uh Japanese thing that she's bringing in which

[01:05:22] is a very different idea of the ego and when you think about artists immediately the ego of

[01:05:30] authorship is there and she doesn't have that and to your point the lighting piece so the first one

[01:05:37] that really kind of I think in some ways after the wish tree and after the sentence that she wrote

[01:05:46] in the beginning and when you get into the room and you see lighting piece it suddenly becomes

[01:05:53] uber conceptual suddenly you think oh where is this about hmm this is something else it's not

[01:05:59] something I can participate in so there's a lot of text and you read the text and you understand

[01:06:05] where she performed it first when she thought of it uh what this video is from who felt who made

[01:06:11] the video because it's all about togetherness for her and also the repetition of certain gestures

[01:06:16] because the wish trees are very known you know yeah I've experienced them before I'm sure you have

[01:06:21] as well and so when you get there I immediately thought of um the scene the very famous scene

[01:06:31] of Tarkovsky's film nostalgia where a character has to cross a cold pool of water holding a candle

[01:06:45] and not letting the flame go off the flame of the candle and so it's a very potent scene that is a

[01:06:54] lot about faith and I don't relate to Tarkovsky very much because it's very

[01:06:59] faith-driven and religion-driven and that scene has always annoying me and yoga loves it

[01:07:06] and I find it incredibly annoying I find it excruciatingly I don't want to say corny

[01:07:12] because it's a terrible word but have a hard time with it because it's all about you sweating

[01:07:19] making an effort it's so effort-driven it's so it's not about face to me it's about you know

[01:07:27] realizing where the draft is coming from where you know kind of protecting the candle holding

[01:07:34] your body in cold water it's it's a very male-performative kind of thing whereas with her what is so

[01:07:41] beautiful it's just holding a match um watching it burn it takes time and that's the time you're

[01:07:49] going to take to see that energy live its life start really powerful then gaining momentum

[01:07:57] and then slowly fading away and dying out and that's it and she's by a piano so obviously the

[01:08:03] exhibition is called music of the mind there's this idea of the score as well music takes time

[01:08:10] it takes place in time it's an action and you feel an energy in it and that's something that is

[01:08:17] irreducible but also in some ways very personal but at the same time collective so she's

[01:08:23] saying a lot of things were that piece that I think probably was a bit discombobulating for those

[01:08:28] who arrived from the very immediate like I'm gonna make a wish and this is all about imagination

[01:08:34] and suddenly she has quite a few conceptual pieces that are not so accessible like you were saying

[01:08:41] in the exhibition we will continue in the next episode to talk about yoga owners incredible

[01:08:49] journey we're still in the beginning of the 60s so that's crazy and we haven't even talked about

[01:08:54] the paintings yet we're still in 1962 and that's why we decided to turn this into two part

[01:09:01] episode for the first time because we really thought that this was an artist who deserves attention

[01:09:09] and not to be defined by one of the husbands she had in her life so thank you so much for

[01:09:16] following on this exploration of the work of Yoko Ono part one we hope you enjoyed listening as

[01:09:24] we enjoyed recording this conversation don't forget to follow us on instagram at exhibitionist's

[01:09:30] podcast and leave us a review we'd love to hear from you follow the podcast it means a lot and

[01:09:36] it does make a huge difference as everyone knows tell your friends leave us comments and suggestions

[01:09:42] and don't forget we visit exhibition so that you have to go out there give your local gallery a

[01:09:49] visit why not stroll on in it's not as scary as you might think it is I have found that to be true

[01:09:57] so it's always worth it even if you don't like it read a bit about the artist and let us know what

[01:10:04] you are seeing and hearing out there and what it's meaning to you that would be fantastic so until then

[01:10:12] take care all right take care thank you for doing this with us see you Emily always so nice to chat

[01:10:20] with you and take care and get well soon and you take care bye bye we'll do

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