[00:00:00] Hello and thank you for going on this ride with us again.
[00:00:16] Or perhaps for the first time and if that's the case, welcome welcome to this podcast.
[00:00:21] We are a conversation, research and feelings podcast and if you thought these things
[00:00:27] and go well together, well they do especially when you're talking about exhibitions and
[00:00:32] artists.
[00:00:34] This time we explore the British artists Zaynab Salas exhibition in the art now space
[00:00:39] that take Britain.
[00:00:41] If you haven't seen it, you should, warning, it will slow down your heart rate.
[00:00:48] We even advocate for an ECG tested the entrance in exit of the show.
[00:00:53] You'll see this is a shift in town for us, with discuss quiet and even read an exit
[00:01:00] of the book by Kevin Kwashi, the sovereignty of quiet.
[00:01:04] Emily and I have a platonic friendship moment that turned out to be really, really sweet.
[00:01:10] Sometimes there's reckoning, sometimes there's community and sometimes there is magic when
[00:01:16] visiting exhibitions and talking about them.
[00:01:20] It heads up and content warning, we do mention sexual assault and stalking.
[00:01:26] So if this is not for you, go straight to the 13th minute without further ado.
[00:01:33] Here we go.
[00:01:34] Enjoy Zaynab Salas.
[00:01:41] Welcome to Exhibitionisters, the podcast about exposing ourselves in public.
[00:01:47] Sorry, you know, wrong podcasts.
[00:01:50] We could turn.
[00:01:52] We could do exhibitionistas too.
[00:01:55] And no one would know which is which.
[00:01:57] We can just alternate episodes between one and the other.
[00:02:00] No, nice.
[00:02:01] I like this.
[00:02:03] Okay, listen to the story.
[00:02:05] I will welcome you properly now.
[00:02:07] So welcome to exhibitionisters where we visit exhibitions so that you have to.
[00:02:13] Or so that you can visit them by curiously through this episode and learn some tidbits about
[00:02:19] the artist in focus.
[00:02:22] Today we discuss Zaynab Salas exhibition.
[00:02:27] It is on until the 23rd of June and its part of the art now series at Tate Britain that
[00:02:34] focuses on a contemporary artist.
[00:02:37] The show was curated by Amy Emerson Martin, assistant curator and Nathan Ladd curator.
[00:02:45] And when you go up the stairs to the exhibition spaces, you can have a moment with
[00:02:49] Chris a few these mural honoring the victims of the Grenfell fires of the Grenfell calamity
[00:02:56] really because there's no other word.
[00:02:58] And it's a really moving mural.
[00:03:01] And I urge you to spend some time there.
[00:03:04] It's good to sometimes just, you know, give yourself some time to ponder upon these things
[00:03:12] and on the victims.
[00:03:14] So yeah, that's it for me.
[00:03:16] Yeah, no, there's a lot going on at the Tate Britain at the moment.
[00:03:19] I mean, it is a gem.
[00:03:20] Yes, yes.
[00:03:21] Act, yeah, museum at the minute.
[00:03:24] So I'm Emily Harding, I'm an art lover and an exhibition gore so glad you could join us
[00:03:30] for an exhibition that I loved.
[00:03:34] It's one of those exhibitions, like I didn't know how much I needed it until I got there
[00:03:39] and it had such a powerful effect.
[00:03:41] So I'm a big Xenus, how the fan girl now.
[00:03:45] I mean, get me the president of the fan club.
[00:03:49] But before we get to this incredible show, how is your weekend culture?
[00:03:54] Joanna.
[00:03:55] I knew you'd love this exhibition.
[00:03:57] I knew it as soon as I stepped in, I thought this is for Emily.
[00:04:02] It's for me too, but it is for you.
[00:04:04] It really is.
[00:04:06] So my weekend culture was quite reading and research focused on my book, which I'm loving.
[00:04:13] But I didn't watch a bunch of stuff on Netflix, like really not worth not even worth mentioning
[00:04:20] a part from Baby Randea.
[00:04:22] Mm-hmm.
[00:04:23] I've been to it.
[00:04:24] Me too.
[00:04:25] I loved it.
[00:04:26] I love it.
[00:04:27] Yeah, this is definitely my weekend culture for sure.
[00:04:31] I mean, I've been to it on Friday night after work that's all I did was watch that show.
[00:04:37] It is incredible.
[00:04:38] Wait, we're having a moment here, Emily, because it's the first time we have the
[00:04:42] same weekend culture reference.
[00:04:44] It is, wow, there should be a belly ring somewhere for this.
[00:04:49] But yeah, it's a phenomenon for sure, the show.
[00:04:53] It's incredible.
[00:04:54] So it's actually a true story.
[00:04:56] Baby Randea was written and directed by Richard Gadd, who also plays in it.
[00:05:01] He is a bisexual stand-up comedian who was sexually assaulted and stalked.
[00:05:07] So like double whammy, like there were not an easy start in his professional life.
[00:05:13] What the first thing to say about this is that he has a profile as a man that doesn't
[00:05:19] compute for most people.
[00:05:20] It's not easy to assert yourself as a bisexual man.
[00:05:24] It's much easier for women for once.
[00:05:26] You know, it's something very easy for women at times.
[00:05:30] And it's really hard to go to the police as well with certain issues as a man.
[00:05:36] So bisexuality, male rape, female dangerous and aggressive stalker because there's
[00:05:44] also that issue.
[00:05:45] She is aggressive.
[00:05:46] She becomes aggressive.
[00:05:48] So this was real life.
[00:05:51] This really happened to him, but it's not a obligatory that it's going to become a good
[00:05:55] series.
[00:05:56] It could just have been a sort of a bland kind of retelling of a story and it's so
[00:06:04] not.
[00:06:05] It is so good.
[00:06:07] It's a little bit, it made me think of Tignetaro kind of getspy.
[00:06:12] Of course, I stand up comedians.
[00:06:13] They broke the mold and at the same time brought in to the comedy space, really serious.
[00:06:20] Issues, illness, assault as well, identity issues and he's kind of in that vein.
[00:06:28] Of course it's not funny all the time.
[00:06:31] It's really tragic.
[00:06:33] Yeah.
[00:06:34] But it can be quite funny at times as well.
[00:06:36] And I think it's Paul Rudd who said, in the famous Hot One's YouTube channel, you know,
[00:06:42] that thing where you eat hot wings throughout hotter and hotter and you start crying at
[00:06:47] some point because it's painful.
[00:06:50] I think Paul Rudd was interview there and he said that comedy for him happens in the
[00:06:55] most tragic of times.
[00:06:57] And I really thought about that during reindeer, baby reindeer.
[00:07:03] But the thing is that the person who plays the stalker is incredible.
[00:07:11] Her name is Jessica Gunning and hello and Oscar for this woman.
[00:07:16] She is incredible because you actually love her.
[00:07:21] This is not fatal attraction.
[00:07:23] This is much more complex.
[00:07:25] It's so sophisticated and you fall in love with her.
[00:07:28] She is absolutely adorable and dangerous.
[00:07:32] And he makes you understand how we fell into that trap.
[00:07:36] Yeah, and I think that that's a really important distinction because in fatal attraction
[00:07:41] she was the femme fatale, you know, who just on the surface looked like she had everything
[00:07:46] together and she was, you know, kind of 80s girl boss as it was back then.
[00:07:52] And understand she's like extraordinarily attractive.
[00:07:55] And this, this, the woman in this series, I mean, he knows right away.
[00:08:00] She's full of full of it.
[00:08:03] Like she says that she is really impressive lawyer and she's hanging out with Tony Blair
[00:08:08] and you know, all of these like really high, like really powerful political figures.
[00:08:13] But yet she can't afford a cup of tea.
[00:08:15] You know, I mean, so from the moment you hear, you know, it's a go with her.
[00:08:20] You know that there's something very, very wrong with her, you know, to be spinning these kinds
[00:08:26] of lies and all of that.
[00:08:28] And just to be hanging out at this bar, you know, as she starts to do when she starts
[00:08:33] stalking him 24, 7.
[00:08:35] But yet that doesn't trigger him to like put up a barrier or put up a boundary.
[00:08:42] That, that doesn't do it and that's the interesting part of all this is absolutely why he,
[00:08:50] you know, I wouldn't say pursues but allows that relationship to happen.
[00:08:55] I'm pursuant though in some senses, though later on down the line.
[00:08:59] In some senses, he and that's why it's so interesting because he explores everything that
[00:09:05] you hear about sexual assault, about stalking which is why didn't you come earlier?
[00:09:11] Why did you interact with her?
[00:09:13] Wait a minute. He has at a certain point. I mean, a bit of a spoiler but it's just a detail.
[00:09:19] He has, I think she writes like about 100 message daily to him.
[00:09:24] Yeah.
[00:09:25] And at a certain point, he responds just the one message where he responds or meet her.
[00:09:31] And the police is like, wait a minute, why did you respond?
[00:09:34] Yeah.
[00:09:35] At a certain point, you go, what is the world upside down that I wake up with my feet on my
[00:09:42] head and my head on my feet? Like what is happening?
[00:09:45] And he's really interesting as well in that sense of why you let yourself be trapped
[00:09:52] in this people pleasing situation and in a situation where someone is 120% appreciative of you
[00:10:01] and only thinks of you and is completely dedicated to you and is destroying you by the same token
[00:10:07] because he had PTSD from that other thing that had happened to him.
[00:10:12] So he was already a broken man and there's also another aspect of the series which is
[00:10:18] there's a trans woman played by, oh my gosh, the amazing, Maevea Mau.
[00:10:26] There are all the actors that are absolutely mind blowingly down.
[00:10:30] And she is hot breaking.
[00:10:33] Yeah, I thought it was, I loved seeing a trans person as the voice of reason within the narrative.
[00:10:40] I mean, she was the one there who was like, yeah, she was the one, the viewer identified
[00:10:46] with of like, what the hell are you doing? You know? And I loved that she was the medium
[00:10:53] through which the viewer kind of understood the story. She was the representative of us and she
[00:10:59] was a trans person which was, yeah, I loved seeing her on screen.
[00:11:03] It was, yeah, quite right because one of the things that I found really precise in the series
[00:11:10] is that she has gone through a lot and you can see she's traumatized. But she has it together
[00:11:17] and he's gone through a lot, he's traumatized and he doesn't have it together. And you never know
[00:11:22] the person who's kind of going to pick up the pieces and get on with their lives and carry
[00:11:29] this trauma next to them but in a way that can contain it and people who can't. And there's no reason
[00:11:36] and I think he has carries a lot of guilt for letting himself be broken by what happened to him
[00:11:43] and he can't communicate because of that because you never know what is going to break you
[00:11:49] and there's a lot of judgment from society and from within yourself. And I think it's actually
[00:11:55] useful this series to understand trauma denial, to understand the depth that trauma takes you into
[00:12:04] and the whole you dig around you and the loneliness within it. How the shame spiral works,
[00:12:12] you know because there's a very clear, you know, tracking of decisions that he makes based on where
[00:12:18] he is in his sort of shame spiral and the end which we will not say anything about
[00:12:25] is really jaw-dropping. You know, I mean I think it's really incredible way that he tied it all up
[00:12:32] but the other thing I loved seeing on screen is just a quote-unquote straight man which is how he's
[00:12:39] sort of identified at a certain point in his life grapple with his sexuality. So kind of traverse
[00:12:47] that long spectrum that lives in all of us to a degree certainly lives in human nature of
[00:12:56] how do I feel about this? What am I doing and what's happening with my own sexuality? You just
[00:13:03] don't see that on film, you know, you just don't see that on television and I loved seeing that.
[00:13:10] It was yeah it was really really great. I mean, really had to have my stepdaughter in
[00:13:16] ago she mentioned this to me when we were in the car on Thursday night and the way she
[00:13:22] hadn't watched any of it either. She was just like oh I think I want to check out this baby
[00:13:25] reindeer thing comedian his life story, a stalker. I thought it was going to be way more on the
[00:13:33] you know the lighter side, you know, I sort of have a funny side. Yeah yeah I was like oh it'll be
[00:13:39] it'll be a bit dark but it's going to be funny you know it's a comedian you know and it was
[00:13:45] a lot heavier than I thought it was going to be but in a really brilliant way really really well done.
[00:13:52] Cool so do you want to tell us a little bit about Zaynev Sala? Yes with pleasure so Zaynev Sala was born
[00:14:01] and I'm saying Sala because you probably know how to pronounce it better than I do having lived
[00:14:05] in Middle East. Well I mean she's from Kenya so I don't know if the Kenya and Pronautia
[00:14:11] true. One of my associating her yeah but yeah Sala Sala would probably we I mean we'd probably
[00:14:17] have a we'd probably have more emphasis on the age but I think Sala is probably fine. So Zaynev Sala
[00:14:24] was born in 1996 in Kenya as you said so she's about 30 years old and despite her young age
[00:14:31] she is quite accomplished I mean she's at the tight Britain she's a British artist who lives in
[00:14:37] Watson London so she received the BFA from the Slate School in 2019 and almost immediately had a
[00:14:44] solo exhibition at Camden Arts Centre in 2021 titled Softest Place on Earth. She's represented
[00:14:53] by the same gallery as Ariadine which is a funny coincidence because it was our last episode so the
[00:14:59] gallery is called Shattoshatu in Los Angeles and they both currently have a duo exhibition at
[00:15:05] Kudimanzu Tagallari in Mexico through this program called Kondo that invites other galleries from
[00:15:12] other places in a city so at the moment in Mexico City there's a lot of galleries from elsewhere
[00:15:18] welcomed in the spaces of the galleries the local galleries. So yeah our two episodes kind of come
[00:15:26] together but their work is quite different. There are some commonalities in terms of the positioning
[00:15:32] but materially and in terms of what they make they're quite different. So Sala works mainly with
[00:15:40] painting and drawing although she has video works as well and if another thing to know about her is that
[00:15:47] while she was still at the Slate School of Arts she co-founded with La Misa Khan and Sarah Gullemali,
[00:15:54] a collective called Muslim sisterhood so this was in 2017 and it tries to provide a safe space for
[00:16:03] Muslim women and non-binary people. So how incredible is that? Yes, you know that is great I mean
[00:16:10] gosh yeah that's brilliant. So as an artist she is interested in notions of softness, intimacy,
[00:16:18] tenderness, serenity, contemplation and for me it was also about the other I don't think she
[00:16:25] talks about that in-witness. Her paintings are often monochromatic or redmonochromatic tendencies
[00:16:32] which is actually a great band name come to think of it and she says I am conscious of the energy
[00:16:38] that colors carry and that in that exhibition boy we're gonna talk about that. Yeah boy yeah that's definitely
[00:16:44] an full display. So at Camden her paintings were gray and here they are mostly blue with pastel colors,
[00:16:52] pink, whites, greys. However they're not abstract I don't think we can say that they seem to present
[00:16:59] abstractions from everyday life you know like little focuses on elements of an interior such as curtains
[00:17:07] and rods, patterns, adore, a cat, a plant. So Emily I have a question for you right away because
[00:17:15] as I said I immediately thought of you and I remember the conversation we'd had about social media
[00:17:22] and about how you cannot fathom it and you and I remember you said I want to give people silence.
[00:17:30] Yeah and I thought okay so is this what Zainab is doing? Is this what you know Zainab Salah
[00:17:36] did to you in this exhibition? Yeah totally I mean yeah I think for me the future is an analog
[00:17:42] here it's like I mean you know I mean the revolution will not be televised exactly exactly yeah no but
[00:17:51] the absolutely absolutely she and this is why I love this show so much as I really felt like she was
[00:17:57] speaking my language and just so for context I went to see the show over lunch so I kind of
[00:18:05] felt a little bit of a time pressure element going on you know I was giving myself the pet talk
[00:18:11] of like okay go in there and just try to focus and be with it as much as you can and you know take
[00:18:17] notes and really absorb it you know as quickly as possible before you can get back to work
[00:18:23] which is like such a silly thing you know because it's like it's a real putting like real yeah yeah exactly
[00:18:31] putting all kinds you either do that or you don't visit exhibitions you know you miss a lot of it
[00:18:35] because in London if you don't make time at lunchtime you know what when are you going to see
[00:18:40] everything that's going on exactly the dates open 10 to 6 for crying out loud you know I mean
[00:18:45] it's hard to get there unless you you know are able to go and work hours but in the museum was
[00:18:52] crazy busy which is like I mean I guess it would be because again who's going to be able to go
[00:18:58] their outside of working hours you know but there was this part of it that was like it's always busy
[00:19:03] Emily I was that mid-off to noon and like he was kind of like excuse me excuse me yeah
[00:19:09] can I go through and see if people you know and and then you know so as you said so this is in the
[00:19:17] art now space which is you know kind of a one gallery space you know amongst a ton of gallery spaces
[00:19:25] but it's it's just one room soon as I stepped into the room it was just like you know it was just a
[00:19:34] giant exhale because of the all I mean you're suddenly surrounded by all of these all of this
[00:19:43] beautiful calming color calming you know kind of features I mean as you say like there's one that kind
[00:19:52] of looks a little bit like an open bed but not there's a lot of them that are like not quite finished
[00:19:57] as well there might be an image in one part of it but then it kind of disintegrates into just sort
[00:20:04] of color on the edges so it's not even mean some of them are edge to edge images you know
[00:20:12] finished you know as it were but but at least space for your mind to be like oh that's uh that's
[00:20:18] like a kitchen cupboard kind of looks like right there and then after the sides it kind of just falls
[00:20:25] away so your mind just doesn't have to like engage with everything it's like it's cool you can
[00:20:31] just sort of fade off there too you know I mean it was it was like it was like diving into a duvet
[00:20:40] and you know I mean all of these colors they were just like a tender sunrise but without the
[00:20:45] cliche I mean I have to say that could make it sound very sort of cliche yeah but it's I mean
[00:20:51] and it wasn't that not but yeah it absolutely wasn't that yeah yeah it was it was exactly
[00:20:58] the antidote to the feeling that I brought in and you know there's a couple of benches in the middle
[00:21:03] of the room and I was able just to hang out on the benches and there weren't a ton of people in
[00:21:10] this one space um and there was a one woman there who was on the phone and I feel like at a
[00:21:17] if I had stayed in the frame of mind I was in before I got into the room if I had stayed there
[00:21:24] I would have been like get off your phone what the heck you know I mean but it's like I was so chilled out
[00:21:31] I was like you just do your thing honey do you think you just honey you might need to do
[00:21:37] this phone call yeah exactly take care of yourself you know it was just I mean so it had a really
[00:21:43] profound fact effect on my state of mind and my state of being which was incredible when I went in
[00:21:52] same same thing like your heart rate just kind of like lovers you know and people were hanging
[00:22:00] out like they're on the two benches so the benches are kind of like these these kind of
[00:22:04] comma shaped benches that are blue as well and there were people sitting on the benches just having
[00:22:10] a chat like you could see there were friends like really happy to be talking to each other
[00:22:17] and then people were there and you kind of felt that people were slowing down
[00:22:21] and it's just one room you come in you have the big statement piece at the end of it like a big
[00:22:27] painting that will they will that I'll talk about in very soon and then the two walls that
[00:22:33] lead to it have mostly paintings, fibrous explains things each and a few drawings and that's it and yet
[00:22:42] so powerful and one thing I did is that I a painting I really loved that it's very pink I love
[00:22:47] the color pastel pink for me just drives me nuts and in a good way and so I took my phone and I
[00:22:56] started filming it from afar and walked towards it and then exploded with my phone
[00:23:03] and then a few days ago I clicked on that I went to my photos I clicked on the video
[00:23:10] and I had that feeling again I really physical of excitement and and it kind of brought home the fact
[00:23:18] that in each painting there are several areas where you can stop and I just felt sad going away
[00:23:26] because I thought I want those paintings with me for a long, long time because I think they can sustain
[00:23:33] repeated relationship with them they they hold your gaze and they reveal themselves to you
[00:23:41] ever so slowly and I was sad to go to go away and that thing the Aria Dean said you know that we
[00:23:47] mentioned in our last episode it's not about what expresses is what it's doing to you and here
[00:23:54] it's actually doing something quite powerful absolutely and I think you know for me one of the things
[00:24:01] that felt quite powerful is you know she had the and in a lot of her images kind of in the background
[00:24:08] or like with the cat and there's loads of rugs on the floor there's rugs everywhere so like hanging
[00:24:13] over a railing or hanging on a line you'd imagine prayer rugs and this is something you see a lot
[00:24:20] in the middle east so having spent a lot of time in the middle east there was sort of this connotation
[00:24:26] of the middle east juxtaposed with this enormous piece and serenity and especially now with
[00:24:37] everything that's going on that was such a wonderful thing to have brought together you know rather
[00:24:44] than you know doom and war and strife and hunger of which there is a lot in the middle east of course
[00:24:51] you know but to have you know this other element of life and reflection and calm of which
[00:24:59] there exists there as well you know I mean having that juxtaposed just I you know it was really unexpected
[00:25:08] I didn't expect to see that or feel that but it it like filled something in me that you know
[00:25:17] really needed filling which was amazing the title of that statement piece let's call it like that
[00:25:24] so the big painting that you see as you go in which is quite big it almost takes the whole wall and
[00:25:31] all of the paintings are quite big they don't come across a spec you just kind of notice oh they're
[00:25:35] taking the wall but they're so understated and subdued in some way and so that painting is called
[00:25:42] sovereignty of quiet and it alludes to a book called sovereignty of quiet beyond resistance
[00:25:49] in black culture and it was written by Kevin Quashi and it argues for quietness as the means of
[00:25:57] resistance to a obligatory political and social condition of the black subject not even of resistance
[00:26:04] but like as a recognition of humanity and the fact of having this power of inwardness is what
[00:26:12] makes us human and it's what makes us resist in terms of just being tokenized and just being subjects
[00:26:19] of some form of resistance that we must perform at I say we that black people or other people must
[00:26:26] perform every day so we're talking here as to white women the painting in particular shows a pet
[00:26:33] but also prayer rugs like you said and Salah also mentions about one of her Camden paintings
[00:26:40] the henna hand paintings that you do during eat which is a religious celebration that marks the end
[00:26:47] of Ramadan as a motive of her paintings so she's not showing or claiming these moments of her
[00:26:55] life as a Muslim woman and it made you think of the Middle East you know she's not particularly
[00:26:59] just saying and they're just naturally there part of her inner and private life and that may be
[00:27:06] really want to read an exit of the book because I think I don't explain it half as well and as
[00:27:13] you know I don't I don't live that experience so I think it's maybe better to give a voice to
[00:27:19] Quashi so this is about the famous act of resistance of two black American athletes
[00:27:25] Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico so when the national anthem
[00:27:33] to the American anthem plays they both raise their black glove fists in resistance against
[00:27:41] racism poverty and inequality and you know there was another man on the podium an Australian
[00:27:49] athlete called Peter Norman and in solidarity with them he wore a pin for OPHR which stands for
[00:27:56] Olympic project for human rights and so Quashi writes their paired bodies have become a precise
[00:28:04] sign of a restless decade and especially of black resistance but look again closely at the
[00:28:12] pictures from that day and you can see something more than the certainty of public assertiveness
[00:28:19] see for example how the severity of Smith salute is balanced by the yielding of Coliseus raised on
[00:28:28] and then notice how the sharpness of their gesture is complemented by one telling detail
[00:28:34] that their heads are bound as if in prayer that Smith in fact has his eyes closed. The effect
[00:28:42] of their bowed heads is to suggest intimacy and it is a reminder that this very public protest is also
[00:28:49] intimate there is a sublime balance between their intentional political gesture and this sense of
[00:28:55] inwardness, a sublimity that is often barely acknowledged. In truth the beauty of the protest
[00:29:02] is enhanced by noting the intimacy in reading Smith and Coliseus not only assortures in a larger
[00:29:10] war against oppression but also as two people in a moment of deep spirituality in prayer as vulnerable
[00:29:18] as they are aggressive as pensive as they are solidly righteous. In this reading what is compelling
[00:29:26] is their humanity on display the unexpected glimpse we get of the inner dimensions of their public
[00:29:32] bravery. So he talks about everything about how everything is political later on but that not
[00:29:41] everything is protest so in the case of Salah the quietness you know the very personal universe she's
[00:29:47] here for herself and sharing with us can be political since everything is really political but
[00:29:53] is also the affirmation of our humanity as a place of irreducible uniqueness as a one in a lifetime
[00:30:01] story even though it's banal and trivial she often refers to like I think that the softest place on earth
[00:30:09] is a song by escape a little bit like Ariadine with I think we're alone now by Tiffany and she
[00:30:15] kind of picks these songs and she says as she listens to music a lot in her studio so you know of
[00:30:22] course it's trivial it of course it's probably not high culture it's not you know rugs that come from
[00:30:27] you know some sort of history and they're extremely expensive it's just her home rugs you know
[00:30:33] the things she sees in her home every day so these patterns these hand-up paintings are repeated
[00:30:41] gestures they can even be political but they belong to her they belong to a culture and
[00:30:49] they belong to but they not end but they belong to her in an absolute singularity so yeah I just
[00:30:56] wanted to read that thank you thank you Zaynab Salah to have made me read this book because it really
[00:31:02] is it goes really deep into this notion of we're humanity lies and how representation even within
[00:31:11] your own culture sometimes can lead to this performative superficial aspect of resistance and sometimes
[00:31:20] denies humanity within you and this kind of irreducible quality of being human so yeah that was a
[00:31:28] good read but it's time for a break I think so we'll be back shortly
[00:31:33] hi again so we're back and we are in a misty blue interior or interior
[00:32:02] a tea somewhere between both in one of the rooms of the busiest museum of London with Zaynab Salah's
[00:32:09] works most paintings and drawings how is this possible how can you find such peace in such a crowded
[00:32:17] place or in the words of already dean what is this art doing to us which was the question that we
[00:32:23] were asking before I have to say personally this isn't the type of painting or art that I'm drawn
[00:32:30] to like full disclosure when I saw her work on the website when we were deciding what to do an
[00:32:37] episode about I thought okay so this is going to be one of those where I'm like I like it I'm
[00:32:43] appreciated but it's gonna leave me you know I'm gonna love it and leave it and that's it and I've been
[00:32:50] obsessed with the paintings I must say I'm authentic so I don't visualize and if I want to visualize
[00:32:57] something it's even harder so I have compulsive images that come once in a while and it's not
[00:33:02] a complete blind at my mind they do come in once in a while but if I try to remember things images
[00:33:09] especially things that I've only seen once is really difficult so I keep finding myself in this conceptual
[00:33:17] blue mist and I keep wanting to go back to the paintings and finally enough my daughter came to
[00:33:24] me this week and was saying to you what I have to admit my favorite color is blue and she had a book
[00:33:30] in her hand called Bluettes by Maggie Nelson which is a book of poetry like really beautiful
[00:33:37] book of poetry um I love Maggie Nelson she wrote the organots maybe a bit more famous book
[00:33:44] and the book is blue and I was thinking this is definitely the blue week and and I told her
[00:33:51] I think you really love this exhibition because she's all about it's a bit like you she loves
[00:33:56] quietness and she loves serenity and she's always trying to find a peaceful mindful place to
[00:34:03] exist from you know into to have in the world so that was that was funny and I love I love it when
[00:34:12] something that would not be the thing that you're drawn to suddenly finds its way into your heart
[00:34:17] and soul and just stays with you and just teaches you a lesson really for sure yeah and I mean
[00:34:23] while bits of her work actually reminded me a little bit of Yoko Ona I mean the serenity and you know
[00:34:30] an explicit link there but I just think the fact that you know those corners of her paintings are
[00:34:38] and finished and she just allows your imagination she just there's just so much space for imagination
[00:34:44] in the works that she's done she's not telling you what to do she's sort of giving you an
[00:34:49] impression as a starting point into a portal of yeah this interiority that she has on offer
[00:34:57] but I think that you know the last two artists that we've looked at have been conceptual
[00:35:03] and very very philosophical and theoretically driven and have been concerned with you know
[00:35:09] maximalist ideas I mean you know I mean Yoko Ona the imagination and the power of the imagination
[00:35:17] and here take this hammer and hammer this nail and how did it feel what did you think you know
[00:35:23] I mean so it's all very there's a lot of work and fill the space with sound yeah exactly and
[00:35:31] and so it's you know kind of simple in one sense but also requires a lot of participation
[00:35:37] and you know I mean every dean you know focusing on very deep quest philosophical questions
[00:35:44] and you know to my mind very obscure kind of French philosophy that I you know is not sort of in
[00:35:51] my day today and then going from that to this where she's just like you know what come on inside
[00:35:58] chill out and you have this space inside you and I'm gonna help you get there you know because
[00:36:06] this is also a universal space you know I mean and I I just think it was in a way the sequence
[00:36:15] of shows that we've been to recently this one was needed you know at this time I mean
[00:36:22] to you know just kind of yeah be a bit slower and be a bit more intimate I mean I love that
[00:36:30] as you pointed to earlier she's she's depicting things that are in her immediate environment
[00:36:37] or that are in her immediate memory you know she's she's bringing you what is with an arms
[00:36:46] reach of her so to speak and I love when people do that and you still feel it you know it's like
[00:36:56] because there is that universal in the particular and yeah I just felt really moved by that
[00:37:02] and I felt like there's a certain closeness to her as an artist you know that that that you might not
[00:37:09] get from another from coming at you know art you know conceptual art from a different angle
[00:37:19] they have two things to say to that actually can I can I go please because you're thinking like a curator
[00:37:26] or like the curators I love and like I curate myself which because I love my curating then let's say it
[00:37:32] yeah yeah well self-traded here yeah good and I love that you compared Zaynab Salah to Yoko
[00:37:42] because I do think there's a proximity there and oh well the colour blue in the sky for sure
[00:37:48] because obviously when you look at that blue and that atmospheric blue of the paintings even though
[00:37:53] they're interior driven there's also some kind of atmospheric because the paintings were gray also
[00:38:01] at Camden so they really do speak to atmospheres into the sky but also I love to make connections
[00:38:09] between works that are not formally the same but that basically are telling you something or
[00:38:15] there are speaking to a certain space in your soul that is common and here I agree when Yoko
[00:38:23] Erna talks about peace and she talks about inwardness as well like you were saying you know it's
[00:38:28] about togetherness but it has come from a work on the ego and there's something similar here so that's
[00:38:36] that's really that's really strong and the other thing I wanted to say is that she works from the
[00:38:42] H.S. tapes from her family like home videos which it really explains a lot because it's
[00:38:50] that grainy texture of video that she plays probably in a VHS player that none of us have any more
[00:39:00] where that she gets but and there's a family film so she's also worked with video
[00:39:07] and in her slate school degree show she showed a video called Forstar Wedding and it was with footage
[00:39:16] of a family footage I haven't watched it I read the description of it and it seemed to be
[00:39:22] the way she describes what she picked from it you know she talks about someone you know
[00:39:28] giving a kind of a side eye to an auntie who's kind of overdoing it you know and some sort of hand
[00:39:34] picking something or you know with some patterns on the table and so she's going to pick that up
[00:39:40] and she's going to isolate these things already from a texture that speaks of the past and that's
[00:39:48] really interesting because she's not only working with her own environment but she's also working
[00:39:55] on the ability that you have to go into a memory that was recorded so it has an interface
[00:40:05] to show it to you and how weird that I did the same thing like I took my phone and I took bits
[00:40:12] and I filmed it in that kind of way like I'm going to explore this painting through my phone
[00:40:17] because I want to go win to those details I want to live there exactly that's the feeling I had
[00:40:22] I want to live in that detail there's some bits where you just go oh okay this is really speaking
[00:40:28] to me and I don't know what it's saying but it's very familiar at the same time absolutely
[00:40:34] and also because I mean she uses so just to describe the paintings are quite layered I mean there's
[00:40:42] you know there's a lot of depth to them and then she sort of has these almost like water marks
[00:40:49] in some of them which are like descriptive some kind or imagery of some kind that that
[00:40:56] feel of the region perhaps but I mean my question for you is what would you call I mean
[00:41:04] what would you call them are they script or they you know are they so these are two drawings
[00:41:13] that for me were made me think of the sign of types of Anna Atkins from the 19th century
[00:41:21] because they're blue and they seem to show specimens of algae or plants of some kind of
[00:41:30] some area but at the same time they also look like Arabic writings or letters it's not Arabic
[00:41:41] script though it doesn't look like Arabic script to me yeah anyway I mean I think I think the point
[00:41:46] I'm trying to make is that she it is so you know intimate and you feel familiar but yet there are
[00:41:55] these things in there this images I don't that's the thing is I don't know what to call them
[00:42:02] these fingers what have you that feel very of the region that feel very representative
[00:42:10] of Islam or of the you know culture of the region whatever they don't feel like they're from the
[00:42:17] UK but yet they feel familiar that's an impressive thing to pull off to have this kind of
[00:42:24] image that is and these little these little details layered into the paintings
[00:42:31] that are distinctly very much not western as you know quote-united but but also pollute
[00:42:41] into this huge familiarity I don't know how she does that I don't know how she does it but
[00:42:47] it's a really incredible feat and going back to this notion of quiet in between those layers
[00:42:54] there's a sort of a space for you to come in so she she she does say that there's this real
[00:43:00] need to instill serenity and to give people a space for contemplation she really talks about
[00:43:08] this inward look so I would love to read you another excerpt from Quashis book where he talks
[00:43:17] about quiet brilliant I am going to have to get this honestly this looks I think this works for you
[00:43:24] yeah because it gives so much density to something that is sometimes a bit despised by society
[00:43:34] I think she talks about that the fact that slowing down can be really nice and well and you read
[00:43:40] in the garden people who left everything behind and went to the mountains but most of us you know
[00:43:46] us commoners we just have to work and work and work and work and don't have a lot of moments
[00:43:51] of quietness and if we do we feel guilty about it I mean speaking as a worker holly you know obviously
[00:43:56] I don't know how to create these moments of quiet so it gives a density and it ties it into our
[00:44:05] humanity so Quashis writes the idea of quiet is compelling because the term is not fancy it is
[00:44:14] an everyday word but it is also conceptual quiet is often used interchangeably with silence or
[00:44:22] stillness but the notion of quiet in the pages that follow so he's talking about the book this is
[00:44:28] right at the beginning is neither motionless nor without sound it made me think of the exhibition
[00:44:36] it's so loud everything around and yet she does that magic of quiet quiet instead is a metaphor
[00:44:45] for the full range of ones in a life once desires ambitions, hungers, vulnerabilities, fears
[00:44:53] the inner life is not apolitical or without value but neither is it determined entirely by publicness
[00:45:02] in fact the interior dynamic and ravishing is a stay against the dominance of the social world
[00:45:09] it has its own sovereignty it is hard to see even harder to describe but not less potent
[00:45:15] in its inner for about innafability quiet in humanity quiet is inevitable essential
[00:45:24] it is a simple beautiful part of what it means to be alive it is already there if one's looking
[00:45:31] to understand it and aesthetic of quiet is not incompatible with black culture but to notice
[00:45:37] and understand it requires a shift in how we read what we look for and what we expect even
[00:45:44] what we remain open to it requires paying attention in a different way lovely lovely what else is
[00:45:52] that yeah I know it went it do you know when this was written in 2012 okay and it's called
[00:45:59] the sovereignty of quiet beyond resistance in blackness and it really is powerful, really is
[00:46:07] and I want to talk to you about that painting the painting that bears the title sovereignty of quiet
[00:46:13] because when I looked at it so I went through the whole wall on the left with those beautiful
[00:46:19] paintings and I'll tell you in in a second what they made me feel so you're in that very powerful
[00:46:26] thing where she really really draws you out of that madness of the tate and of London
[00:46:32] and then you get to that painting and so the painting is quite big it's horizontal
[00:46:39] and it is a weird kind of a weird stance of overlooking the floor kind of like if you take
[00:46:46] an picture with your phone kind of you know holding it a bit forward and so you have the floor
[00:46:53] the wood floor and then you have some prayer dogs kind of overlapping at times
[00:47:00] and you have a cat but the cat has on its fur motifs of a crescent moon, a star,
[00:47:10] some other undulating marks that I didn't quite recognize and I thought what is this
[00:47:17] corniness what is this why is this cat like this and I got a bit upset and I thought why
[00:47:24] what is this and then I went on to look at the other paintings on the other wall
[00:47:29] and my aesthetic I don't know my aesthetic demands were met finally again
[00:47:36] and then I went back to that painting and I could see that lots of people drawn to it
[00:47:40] I took pictures of people taking pictures of the painting and it kind of stayed with me and
[00:47:46] it didn't quite fit the aesthetic what did you think of it?
[00:47:51] yeah I think it was yeah I loved it I'm not going to say it was my favorite I don't know if
[00:47:56] I had a favorite because I feel like the power of her work that's the question for the end
[00:48:02] true power of the work is is so in the collective of it but I loved this one I had this feeling
[00:48:10] like I was almost falling into it you know that sort of the angle is that yes you're about to fall
[00:48:18] you know just kind of fall curl up on the floor next to this cat and maybe it's sunshine
[00:48:24] and have a little nap on the floor you know it's like that's what it was evoking the the
[00:48:29] crescent moon is in Islam is a I mean that's the Ramadan moon essentially so I quite like
[00:48:39] I quite liked that on the cat and they kind of star across things that she has on there as well
[00:48:47] but yeah so after you went back to it after seeing the rest of the exhibition did you
[00:48:53] did you come at it differently or where did you end up with this one?
[00:48:57] I did it is funny because now that you're describing it and and that's why it's so powerful
[00:49:04] to talk about exhibitions I'm realizing that maybe it's one of the few paintings that is kind
[00:49:11] of together and shows you a whole setting rather than fragments and maybe that's why
[00:49:19] I was a bit puzzled by it and the only pattern that is kind of overlaid and you know playing with
[00:49:28] being where it shouldn't be is the pattern on the cat's fur so that those those symbols and
[00:49:36] that's I think why it kind of stood out but in some ways it corresponds to what she does
[00:49:42] in a humorous and playful way this time and it always makes me think that sometimes the things
[00:49:49] that you don't like or that kind of create friction and that's why I find it's very cleverly
[00:49:55] done this exhibition with that big painting because that painting's going to create friction in that
[00:50:01] very quiet feeling that she manages to create and that she creates against that loft that you have
[00:50:09] over there of looking at the cat with the crescent moon that is saying something about her identity
[00:50:15] without saying it because it doesn't really matter it's playful and the thing is that sometimes
[00:50:22] liking something is not the best thing you can say about a work of art that concludes your
[00:50:28] night come to. Sometimes something that really shocks you or creates fiction or takes you out
[00:50:34] of that contemplative moment is giving you a key to what you should be looking at in the work.
[00:50:40] Why blue and why does this blue is making stuff to you and then suddenly find yourself in the room
[00:50:47] with kind of a playful take on their own her own work it may need go back to the idea of blue
[00:50:55] and what this color is really what is this color to us? Is it a universal color you know I don't
[00:51:02] like the notion of universal but like your own o' said and it's not a coincidence that you
[00:51:07] thought of her the sky is what we all have in common we all have we're all on the the same sky
[00:51:13] and that blue is both aquatic and atmospheric. Did you notice the materials so yeah so I mean it's
[00:51:23] interesting because when I first saw some of them it almost looks like crann. It's like you know
[00:51:30] yes but it's charcoal right like she's putting charcoal over the top or you know is that right
[00:51:38] at a certain point I was thinking is this really painting like what is going on here and like you
[00:51:44] I thought there was kind of pastel or kind of a dusty material that was dragged across the
[00:51:51] the some of the paintings the paintings so the works on linen they're acrylic and soft pastel
[00:51:57] and fixative but you're right they also have charcoal she works with different textures
[00:52:05] and that gives a sort of an almost dusty dry texture to the paintings and I was thinking this is
[00:52:13] halfway between a drawing a print of rubbing of cottage painting it's it's quite complex in
[00:52:21] terms of textures so she really does materialize the painting that painting kind of becomes almost
[00:52:27] sculptural and at the same time it's so a femoral it's so daaffiness that it almost looks like an
[00:52:34] apparition yeah apparition is the exact right word I mean I didn't think of that before but I
[00:52:41] think that that is the perfect word to describe what she puts on linen or canvas or whatever
[00:52:49] it's like it feels so like it's there for a moment but if you went back what it still be there you
[00:52:55] know I mean that's a wonderful feeling it's a how how to capture that is yeah it's incredible
[00:53:04] it gave me being in that room gave me a very rough co-vide you know I mean oh yeah when I was
[00:53:11] when I when I was younger and not seeing the point of Jackson Pollock dritz drick in his
[00:53:19] whatever and then I think we're gonna have a whole list of all the painters you rejected when
[00:53:26] you were young he was he was in there I was like oh come on you know and then in that it wasn't
[00:53:32] until I went to see a room of his in the National Museum in Washington DC I had to say oh wow okay
[00:53:42] I get this like I am having an experience right now and that's how I felt about her is because
[00:53:47] like you when I saw her online I just kind of had an interest in you know a young artist who had sort
[00:53:55] of you know kind of a couple nationalities in her background and yeah let's go check that out
[00:54:00] and but I wasn't terribly moved by what I saw online and that it was just being in their presence
[00:54:07] and being in their collective presence that was you know best that's the thing that does it so
[00:54:14] yeah she I mean there's definitely Yoko Ono kind of hints in her work or connections that
[00:54:23] I felt but also Rafa for sure just because she is creating a vibe. Should I say this?
[00:54:30] Yeah I should say this oftentimes I think that it's also the setting of the paintings because
[00:54:38] it was quite precise about how you should hang them where they should be how isolated that should be
[00:54:45] and not to establish here a battle between Sala and Rothko let's let's do that.
[00:54:51] Come on.
[00:54:54] Both of them are actually pretty much.
[00:54:57] I should out but listen you go through a crowded corridor the largest corridor and the
[00:55:06] tallest ceiling you've ever seen in a museum. You there's the sergeant exhibition right next door
[00:55:13] and the the shop actually right next door to her exhibition and she just hangs her paintings
[00:55:21] in a very traditional normal you know subdued manner and she creates that atmosphere where as Rothko
[00:55:30] you have to create the atmosphere you have to close the room only certain number of people can be in
[00:55:36] there. Even did the I think it's in the Manil collection that chapel where you can go and visit
[00:55:43] and to be honest sometimes I ask myself did I am I feeling something the thing that I should be
[00:55:52] feeling that people tell me that I should be feeling I'm not quite sure and I prefer
[00:55:57] mine. Klein I love Clifford still and the one likes him I love Clifford still.
[00:56:04] I'm not into the Rothko thing and I think it's a color thing for me I'm much more drawn to drawing
[00:56:10] and I think that's why I love Sala's paintings because they're very drawn they're very a kind of
[00:56:16] a mix such a mysterious mix between this material of the pastel and the acrylic and then
[00:56:24] these lines these kind of undulating lines that like you say I'm not very much of a culture but
[00:56:30] hergoth defended the serpentine line to be very honest with you apparently was like the line for him
[00:56:36] not too much not too little just a little bit undulating and I don't know I think I'm impressed
[00:56:43] by her. She made me think as well which of course knowing me it had to there had to be something
[00:56:51] intellectual in there like did you self-analyze a little bit because I'm interested in you Emily
[00:56:57] because you are such a mindful person I want to learn from you and maybe I'll listen to this
[00:57:02] can learn as well. Oh gosh I mean I think that what she did was just notice the state change
[00:57:10] that I had going the state of mind change going from from before it to being in it. I mean that
[00:57:18] was the most profound thing was just like I mean I didn't take my blood pressure before and after but
[00:57:24] if I had I'm sure that I would have had you know we should add a yeah definitely just bring it
[00:57:30] with you wherever you go. The next thing's a vision I'll do that but um but there is certainly a
[00:57:37] physiological shift in what what I was experiencing and and I think that was the most profound for me
[00:57:46] but in terms of ideas it was really that juxtaposition of you know seeing the prayer rugs and
[00:57:52] imagery that I equated in my mind and experience of being Middle Eastern with this calm etc.
[00:58:03] But yeah it did it did make me think you know I've done lots of meditation in my life and
[00:58:09] fallen in and out of good practice all the time. I'm definitely out of good practice at the moment
[00:58:16] but you know even the readings that you gave just in this podcast you know just
[00:58:23] you know that that act of being quiet does not come naturally in our culture, our society, in our
[00:58:31] monkey minds and it's a lot easier to throw yourself at work which I do constantly you know which I do
[00:58:38] quite a bit of or other activities or other responsibilities in life and just carving out that
[00:58:45] time not for watching television but for just truly being quiet and sitting with yourself and saying
[00:58:53] what what ephemeral you know notions come out of that is is extraordinarily good data
[00:59:02] is extraordinarily rich and I think she just reminded me of that of like you know what you don't
[00:59:08] have to come in here and like look at every piece and see what you're going to see and try to work
[00:59:14] out what you think of it. Fuck that noise you know sit down on this you know this crescent sofa
[00:59:21] this crescent bench and just be with it and that was just such a powerful invitation and and such a
[00:59:30] powerful reminder of something I already know which is the best kind of reminder you know it's like
[00:59:38] that's so beautiful and it's true that I hate the wellness culture nowadays because I think it's
[00:59:45] really stressing us out more than anything and making us very poor because it's very expensive
[00:59:50] and if you're at so right she makes you think of things that you already know about yourself
[00:59:57] the other day and she did she did have a beautiful painting at Camden with two candles I was saying
[01:00:03] to do you know getting really tired in the evening I maybe should do something different
[01:00:09] it we had this idea you know when the energy crisis came in and the crisis went up
[01:00:14] we said you know another thing we could do is like just like candles in the evening because I had
[01:00:19] read that electricity stimulates you anyway and as soon as you had electricity sleeping patterns
[01:00:27] kind of change you went to bed later doesn't mean that you don't sleep as well because I think
[01:00:31] sometimes you make too much of these things but it did change the way you sleep you know see good bed
[01:00:37] later you don't go into your circadian rhythm as naturally and so we we lit those candles
[01:00:44] and I felt so sleepy like I hadn't felt in the long long time in the evening because I have a
[01:00:51] a hard time winding down and it really brings a quietness but like we were saying before quietness
[01:00:58] is not just quietness it brought back your kind of connection to darkness and Tanneke of
[01:01:05] that talks about that as well when she moved to the countryside a connection to the sky outside
[01:01:11] even though you don't see much of it you know in London because of the pollution and you know
[01:01:16] you become hyper aware of little things little noises and small pleasures that kind of
[01:01:22] creeping into your body in your life in your evening but can I tell you so what my my thought was
[01:01:29] tell me I as soon as I got in so I went to the left and there's a very very blue painting
[01:01:34] with not a lot of detail in it just one of those that have these flower, algae,
[01:01:40] scripts kind of patterns in a sort of white overlay and they're in deeper blue
[01:01:48] and they kind of reveal some doors and some lines in the back and I just remember feeling a
[01:01:54] huge wave of summer in Portugal kind of impression you know and immediately because I'm allergic
[01:02:06] to nostalgia as I said to you many times before and immediately I kind of reacted viscerally
[01:02:11] against it and I was like why am I bringing these experiences here? I don't want this I don't
[01:02:18] want to be nostalgic I want to be in the present and I want to be present for these paintings and
[01:02:25] I want these paintings to be a presence for me and then I realized that it wasn't me who was thinking
[01:02:31] it was the work itself I was doing that to me because I was you know making too much space for my
[01:02:38] own experience and my own memories maybe someone else will bring their own memories and
[01:02:44] she's super comfortable about it I don't think the paintings are prescripted that way
[01:02:48] it was a collaboration let's say between the paintings and myself maybe so how did that feel then
[01:02:55] to not think, to not be sort of have that stream of you know kind of thoughts whistling
[01:03:07] through your mind so it sounds like those kind of erbbed a bit is that right and how do that feel?
[01:03:15] It felt playful bending time and just being present within yourself and letting something else
[01:03:22] kind of take over. And I think that's it, that something else is taking over and that's
[01:03:28] something that happens in exhibitions and should happen more maybe I don't know or maybe I'm not
[01:03:33] always available as well. Did you notice the wallpaper in the back? Yeah yeah yeah and the other
[01:03:39] side of the floating wall. So in the room you walk in the main entrance and there's the image
[01:03:45] with a cat on a big floating wall and you go behind the floating wall and there's it's
[01:03:52] basically a still from one of these VHS tapes and it's like no it's from from her video for
[01:03:59] star wedding. Okay so is it so that here's made from this VHS tapes anyway. Yeah it is the lower side
[01:04:09] of a sort of reef or a bouquet and you have this ribbon and then you have these flowers are
[01:04:15] coming from the top of the of the wall and then there's this sort of fabric. You think it's
[01:04:23] quite fabric, floaty fabric and you can see that it's still because I'm looking at my image just kind
[01:04:28] of is bringing everything together and you don't see the pixelization because it's a small picture but
[01:04:34] when you're there it's highly pixelated. You can really see the the squares so it's kind of
[01:04:40] you can see that it's taken from an old tape. I felt like a different exhibition maybe but I mean
[01:04:45] I have a friend who's a curator who's got something really really liberating because people especially
[01:04:52] in commercial settings always say you know an artist needs to be consistent that their needs
[01:04:57] their needs to be a thread across the work and my my friend keeps saying you know artists don't
[01:05:03] need to be consistent and I think it kind of represents another side of her work she does video work
[01:05:08] but it's kind of like a oh and did you notice what if it was in the room in the back? I did
[01:05:14] wander in there wondering if it was going to be more sour but it was not and it was like no
[01:05:20] destruction there's something I mean it was like very very harsh and it like it really jammed up my
[01:05:29] vibe I gotta say I was like I took about two steps in looked around I was like ah not doing it
[01:05:36] you know I'm gonna destroy my vibe let me go back into the duvet of you know Zaynev's Ella
[01:05:44] and the piece and the calm but yeah it felt a little bit jarring to go in there after kind of that
[01:05:53] magical experience yeah it was oh Emily yeah yeah yeah yeah did you get a so true
[01:06:05] I remember I went back and I thought oh not let me see because you know you always like guilt ridden
[01:06:11] obviously that's our natural state as we saw with baby reindeer and I thought gosh I should maybe
[01:06:16] going through the other rooms and just see a bit of the permanent collection
[01:06:22] and I but I was like like you it was I put out so comfortable here and this is so mute to me
[01:06:27] I want to experience it more but I'm just gonna see the room in the back you are absolutely spot on
[01:06:34] it was destruction and it was the Gustav Metzker works that we mentioned in the yoga urn of
[01:06:42] the yoga urn of the episode and I thought ah no no no no and it's funny because
[01:06:49] yoga urn people criticized her for being there and she herself didn't quite feel that her work
[01:06:55] was about destruction her work is constructive and it's about building up something out of almost
[01:07:01] nothing and it's true that you see Metzker's works which are wooden piece with like ink
[01:07:08] kind of patches of ink on it and then you have carolish neem and performances and then you have
[01:07:14] a beautiful mirrored shandell that is in Portuguese so probably I was the only one or one
[01:07:19] of the very few people who could read the text it's not translated there's so much text all the time
[01:07:25] everywhere and there where you could use a translation it's not and it's a religious text so it's
[01:07:31] beautiful because it's the creation from a monotheistic religious perspective and it's also
[01:07:39] connected with writing a love mirrored shandell's work and I thought it connected really well with
[01:07:44] salad and it's funny because you go around the room and mirrored shandell was the last work
[01:07:48] guys so I'm not that oh okay yeah you're going back in again I'm here to hear in this room
[01:07:56] today is not today not today Jose yeah I know it just really felt like being in a plain crash you
[01:08:05] know it's like you're up there putting around in the skies and then it's like capooob destruction
[01:08:11] I don't even know what I saw I didn't even look like anything I just felt it like I sort of
[01:08:17] scanned the pieces and I was like no I'm not doing that not today so Emily what do exhibitions
[01:08:27] do like what that bears the question like what what do we expect from exhibitions and because you
[01:08:35] yeah I mean what we're talking about here is that we are preserving the experience of a specific
[01:08:41] exhibition but how do you not experience that you would still feel that that room is quite harsh you know
[01:08:47] it's 60s and 60s it's kind of you know it's a very powerful room so what what is it like
[01:08:56] one of the exhibitions kind of harm you or kind of do some nasty stuff to you what what do they do
[01:09:03] and I'm asking this because are you're being really kind of made us also explore you know what
[01:09:09] those yeah and I mean I think yeah the idea and thing was going through my mind as you were saying that
[01:09:16] you know liking it is not exactly the highest honor to give to an exhibition and I completely agree
[01:09:24] I mean but I mean what do they do I guess is whatever they do you know I mean you know it's sort of
[01:09:33] you know I mean I mean I think I think that's the thing about about going is just being open to
[01:09:40] whatever it is they have on offer and what they're gonna do to you because it's gonna be different
[01:09:47] for you Joanna that it is for me Emily that it is for you know all of the listeners and that's the
[01:09:54] beauty of it and you know I think of all of the things yeah I think attraction is something to
[01:10:02] pay attention to and there's a huge attraction to what Zaina Bala is doing for me you know and
[01:10:09] it sounds like for you too you know I mean so I think that you know it is interesting because
[01:10:16] aesthetically what I necessarily need feel the need to have something a purpose on my wallet home
[01:10:23] I don't know maybe maybe I don't know I mean it but there was certainly an attraction to that room
[01:10:29] and what those that collective group of paintings was doing for me and reminding me of
[01:10:35] that was really really valuable for me but yeah I mean I think if I I think going into that
[01:10:44] destruction thing it was more of a juxtaposition I just I wasn't I was wondering that you know
[01:10:49] I went from a state of you know kind of work mode pressurized I've got to watch the clock
[01:10:55] at this exhibition so I can get back and dig into work again too wow this is amazing you know
[01:11:03] let's just hang out to explore this peaceful interior feeling and then accidentally stepping off
[01:11:11] that cliff into that destruction room and thankfully clamoring my way back into Zaina's Sala so
[01:11:20] I mean I think if I had come in knowing I'm gonna see some 1960s brutalism you know happening in a room
[01:11:29] or you know this destruction thing hey hey hey hey no no no no bad mouthing brutalism please
[01:11:35] I love it I love it you know I genuinely I mean the barbecone is a is a beauty so what would you say
[01:11:45] what what do you answer to that so what would you say is the purpose of exhibitions what do they do well
[01:11:51] um we've been talking so much I think since Moriama about the idea of representing
[01:11:57] and the idea of expressing something and delivering a message as opposed to maybe question the notion
[01:12:05] of representation what it means to represent and if it's as valuable as we think it is and
[01:12:12] if maybe we should deconstruct these notions of representation because it's always about who gets
[01:12:17] represented how and what who is doing it as well and how they're doing it and um and that's you
[01:12:27] know already in writing really kind of struck a chord with me and I've been really thinking about
[01:12:33] and thinking about exhibitions and you could own it as well with this idea of creating another space
[01:12:40] how arts has the power to expand your reality and your horizons rather than just denouncing
[01:12:48] stuff that you know is happening anyway because you read the newspapers and you listen to the
[01:12:52] news and you listen to podcasts and our images really here to tell us what's going on and give us
[01:12:58] a feeling and tell us that we're so good because we're having this feeling and we're not racist
[01:13:03] and we're not this and we're not that yeah I'm been really thinking about that I think these artists
[01:13:07] have been teaching me a lot and kind of like comforting me in things that I was already thinking
[01:13:12] but maybe not with the lots of precision or maybe not thoroughly and I think exhibitions do that
[01:13:18] they expand and contract and they talk to you in a way that a text cannot talk to you and they
[01:13:26] take it to a place that might be non-verbal that might be more instinctive and they bring you back
[01:13:33] to that verbal place again once you've left and even art based language based art is doing
[01:13:43] something to language rosy broodorty has a really beautiful text about nomadism and she says that
[01:13:49] language and I'm a blank the artist also told me once words are fossils so everything that is
[01:13:56] language is already in the past if you think about language like that so and rosy broodorty says
[01:14:03] that language carries all the white supremacists imperialists, class powers in in itself because
[01:14:16] it's made by that society so we have to be nomads in language and when you are writers we need to
[01:14:22] deconstruct that language and interrogated and maybe work it a little bit and change it so even
[01:14:30] when you're really working with language you have to question yourself you know what what
[01:14:35] words you're using and how you're using them so I don't know for me I'm just thinking lately
[01:14:41] and maybe thanks to the podcast and thanks to you as well and to the ideas you bring to the table
[01:14:47] and how you react to things and watching you know someone else or vividly reacting to the same
[01:14:51] exhibitions I go to and being available to talk about them during our or more than that is really
[01:14:58] making me think about the power they have and they're they lack nowadays it's not inscribed in
[01:15:03] society anymore but when we start thinking about them they are so ever so powerful and ever so
[01:15:10] resistant to trends and to one-liners and to especially artists we've been looking at you know
[01:15:19] so I think exhibitions do a lot and it's quite difficult to say what they do exactly yeah
[01:15:25] thankful that I'm able to see these exhibitions and to dig into them and to bring them to our
[01:15:31] listeners as well yeah for sure for sure I mean I think I would not be seeing as many
[01:15:38] as I do if it weren't for this podcast I mean if I always love them but it's like again
[01:15:44] if it's eight Britons only open from 10 to six when the heck am I going to go except for on a weekend
[01:15:49] which are already quite packed yes so it's it's it's it's been great to have the impetus to do it and
[01:15:56] it's been I mean I've always loved going to exhibitions with you which is why it's was even you know
[01:16:03] interesting in the first place but it's been nice too it's like you know sharing the
[01:16:10] excitement about them with others as well so you know I just had a casual chat with a woman at work
[01:16:17] this week about Zane of Sala but also in the context of the two previous of Yokohono and
[01:16:23] Ariadine and just sort of this you know journey that we've been on with the three of them in particular
[01:16:29] and it's just been really nice to to share that with other people and she was like oh
[01:16:35] Ariadine and you know where Ariadine is is showing is right around the corner for work and I was like
[01:16:40] go in they were actually open late you know it's only a file yes plus them I know now all right
[01:16:48] and it's only a fiber to go and you know just I would love to know anything so I don't know maybe
[01:16:54] she'll go maybe she won't but it's it's fun to to share you know these unique experiences with others
[01:17:04] and it's it is something different than a show it's great to talk to you about baby reindeer you know
[01:17:11] I mean it's you know but it's like it's it's but I would say it's almost at the same level as Zane
[01:17:19] Absalous work if you're reindeer is a masterpiece and I know just putting it out there
[01:17:28] you know it's really good but it's not the same language and it's a language that we're more used to
[01:17:33] in our society then I see I of course I understand what you're saying yeah and it's like you're right
[01:17:40] it would be wonderful to just if you went to work and at the water cooler it might be just as
[01:17:51] you know just as common for someone to say wow I went to this exhibition and as it would be to
[01:17:57] wow I just saw this thing on Netflix you know I mean what a different what a different world
[01:18:04] it would be would it be better I don't know it would be maybe broader maybe that maybe the
[01:18:09] yes the broader yeah the level or the breadth of experience at least would be you know absolutely
[01:18:18] a wider aperture than it is at the moment yeah the show so is this the right time to ask you
[01:18:26] what painting drawing would you take home you know what I am gonna do the cat I'm gonna do in the
[01:18:33] I'm doing the cat you are look at you I am well just because you know there's something about
[01:18:41] the the relationship that the viewer had the angle you talked about that like you know that is just
[01:18:48] so inviting to just like take a note from that cat's playbook and lie down on some rugs on the floor
[01:18:59] just just stop and see what happens and maybe maybe like the cat maybe some powerful
[01:19:07] spiritual imagery will come through or you know maybe you'll just find some time to rest but
[01:19:14] it also just brought to mind Trisha Hershey this woman who wrote um who's he was done this whole
[01:19:21] movement really about rest is resistance and she has a book by the same name she has a
[01:19:26] organization called the Nat Ministry which is about which is about you know just taking rest like real
[01:19:36] rest when you can because everybody needs it in this you know hustle culture but she she's
[01:19:44] really it but anyway it kind of brought to mind that as well that it's like it can be this quiet
[01:19:49] in terms of a place of seeing what emerges but it also can just be a place of quiet because
[01:19:55] you need a rest you know I mean so yeah so I think I'd go I'd go with that one since I was a kid
[01:20:02] I said you know sleeping was akin to dying then like it was time totally you know my undying
[01:20:10] idea yeah so and it was reading a book by us like Heligwin called the word for world is forest
[01:20:22] where there's these tribes of people of aliens who value much more they're sleeping state
[01:20:30] and dream state then they're awakened states so it's exactly the opposite to us and they speak
[01:20:37] telepathically and everything that is truthful meaning for spiritual comes to them in their dreams
[01:20:45] and I that change me it's so funny sometimes just need something a little nudge
[01:20:53] because I had also been reading other things about you know these kinds of perceptions of the mind
[01:20:59] and what the mind does and and it just made me think yeah if you're trained if you're tuned to
[01:21:06] what's going on and what your brain is doing you know like lucid dreaming of course of course
[01:21:13] you know that makes complete sense and I reconnected with the notion of sleeping because neurologically
[01:21:19] your your cells are just rebuilding as you sleep you are actually healing through sleep
[01:21:25] and your body can do that and if you trusted your body a bit more but anyway going back to the
[01:21:30] works um I would I would take two of them I'm I'm greedy like that and I would take one with a door
[01:21:40] on the left and with a rug just hanging suspended in space and then another one of the big
[01:21:49] flower like shapes that are darker and a sort of sea of whiteness that reveal stuff in the back
[01:21:57] they do you don't know what is hmm I have to do some more soul searching and I'm being nostalgic
[01:22:03] maybe I am I don't know I'm nostalgic if the exhibition already
[01:22:08] mark the calendar the day that I was nostalgic I like it but yeah the one with the doorway
[01:22:15] I'm with you I think that I would I would very very happily take that one home there's so much
[01:22:21] there oh god I mean honestly say that she we're going to be talking about her for years
[01:22:27] I mean I think she's she's a keeper she's a keeper she's a keeper she's a
[01:22:34] bigly oh yeah she's she's that you know so beautiful to see younger people kind of reinventing
[01:22:41] stuff and reinventing these languages that we have since prehistory it's beautiful and I think
[01:22:45] that's also the kind of thing that takes me and makes me think of prehistoric drawings or painting
[01:22:51] whatever you want to call them it's quite it doesn't really matter these inscriptions on the walls
[01:22:55] are so skilled when you see them for real it's just so incredible that's sometimes so simple
[01:23:02] and you know there's these theories of oh these were rituals these were made for rituals these were
[01:23:09] the things they hunted or whatever and maybe it's the same thing as in this exhibition it's just
[01:23:16] markers of something that you can't quite say with words and that just kind of bring it back to you
[01:23:22] with the kind of skill of the line and the magic of the color that you take from the only thing
[01:23:29] that really you know what you're only think that I really kind of ah kind of always bugs me now but
[01:23:35] I think it's also a problem of perception is that she uses acrylic and acrylic is incredibly polluting
[01:23:43] but I have many friends who work with acrylic cannot work with anything else is what they grow up with
[01:23:48] it's what they're familiar with you know you did Joanna you know you did you just brought us into
[01:23:53] the destruction room brought from the same as we crossed this over the threshold you have crashed
[01:24:01] like I took a straight to go stuff meds go so what do we have next do you know what you
[01:24:10] remember who we're gonna get next yes so we're gonna talk about Sufianne Barbaries installation
[01:24:16] at the curve which is a very special exhibition space at the Barbican which you just referred
[01:24:23] so the exhibition is open until the 30th of June and by the way just to mention something
[01:24:28] a bit more positive like I'm really making an effort here Salas exhibition is free yeah and
[01:24:37] Sufianne Barbaries as well great all right well look it's a wrap thank you so much this is great
[01:24:43] I mean what a what a joyful yeah I don't know the whole thing I loved it I love Zayna the love the
[01:24:50] chat baby reindeer yeah so thank you this is lovely what a wholesome episode right thank you
[01:24:58] for you know sticking with us I hope we brought you some joy with this episode and some
[01:25:05] lightness and some quiet you know much needed quiet and you know I'll just say thank you Emily as well
[01:25:13] was such a beautiful experience today okay everybody thanks so much for listening and look forward
[01:25:18] to seeing you next time thank you everyone bye bye see you next time
[01:25:31] you