[00:00:00] Hi there, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Pod.
[00:00:15] This time we embark on a journey through painting in all its guises.
[00:00:20] We explore the work of Gerhard Hyshter, who embraced and surpassed in some ways, all
[00:00:26] the pictorial styles known to humans and who engaged in some conceptual endeavors as well
[00:00:31] with reflective surfaces. Jorge Luis Borges considered that there is something
[00:00:37] diabolic about mirrors, since they multiply the world and facing each other, they create
[00:00:44] an endless laboring. And I think Ryshter would agree. But perhaps there is also something
[00:00:51] redeeming about them, irreducible, human and what about images? Are we talking about the same thing?
[00:01:00] Well here we go again visiting Exhibition so that you have to or at least for you to visit them
[00:01:06] by curiously through us because it is such a pleasure to know, feel and imagine more and to talk about
[00:01:14] it. So let's dig in. Hello and welcome to Exhibitionistas Podcast. We explore the work of an
[00:01:26] artist through their solo exhibition on this podcast and have a chat about it, so we visit
[00:01:31] exhibitions so that you have to. We are a big proponent of going out and seeing art as it's exhibited
[00:01:40] and we hope that this podcast in some way inspires you to go and engage with art.
[00:01:47] I'm Emily Harding, I'm an art lover and an exhibition gore. And I am Joanna Piano-Evis, a contemporary
[00:01:53] out curator and writer so this is a podcast with two middle-aged women who love going to exhibitions
[00:02:00] and talking about them. So for this fifth episode and I can't believe this is already the fifth
[00:02:07] episode. We will be focusing on a massive, massive pillar of the 20th century and 21st century
[00:02:15] in contemporary arts, the great artist Gerhard Hishtah. First of all Emily, how was your week in
[00:02:21] culture? Did you see Reed or Watch any juicy stuff? Yeah for sure I went and saw the area
[00:02:30] Dean exhibition at ICA in London but we're not going to talk about that now. We're going to talk
[00:02:37] about it on a future podcast but it was great really really great. Other than that finished up
[00:02:43] true detective night country, this is the fourth season of this, I think you watch this too right?
[00:02:50] Did you watch this? No I don't never watched it and as soon as I saw that my my my lady Jo de Forza
[00:02:57] was in it and I was like okay I need to hop on this train because I love her. Yeah she's yeah
[00:03:03] she's really really I mean she's always good she's brilliant in this and then there's Kelly
[00:03:09] Reese Rice and not entirely sure how you pronounce your last name but she is a co-star in
[00:03:14] it one of the main stars with Trady Foster and she's a former boxer, former professional boxer
[00:03:21] so it's oh wow like she's yeah so she's you know it's the the size differential between the
[00:03:28] two I mean Jodie Foster comes across as a tiny woman and then you know this woman Kelly is a
[00:03:34] boxer and looks like a boxer I mean she's really you know fit and you know big strong really fast
[00:03:41] mostly super strong yeah but it's um I love it when actors when when people who aren't actors
[00:03:49] but are somewhat performers in somewhere move on to film series cinema I love that I'm
[00:03:57] going to work so it can be very very interesting she's a really powerful actress I mean she that
[00:04:02] she was really really great in this role and it's you know the this is the first true detective
[00:04:10] that wasn't written and directed by Nick Pizzolato I think this is last name who was the
[00:04:17] original creator of the first three seasons it was directed high by somebody else a woman
[00:04:27] director I don't remember her name but um apparently he was really slagging it off and it was just like
[00:04:35] you know I mean being really saying oh the dialogue is just tried and things like that and it's like
[00:04:43] this is this I think I'm right in saying this is the most watched true detective since the first one
[00:04:52] so it's like it's obviously done something really engaging and it is I mean it has all of those
[00:05:00] so true detective you know has these you know kind of main pillars and all of them it's sort of
[00:05:06] these detectives that are obsessed with their jobs and really driven by their jobs in some way
[00:05:13] it usually has like this really wild terrain that they're you know faced with so like the
[00:05:20] environment and the landscape are an absolutely huge part of the story and here it takes place and Alaska
[00:05:26] up in the Arctic Circle well wow you know full days of night you know the sun is not coming up
[00:05:33] and but there's in this one there's you know it also has like a big philosophical bent you know
[00:05:41] so there is the first Peter and I actually rewatch the first one which I really really love I mean
[00:05:47] it is great TV for as bad as Nick Pizzolotto is being you know badly behaving now he did make
[00:05:56] a really good first series of that but this one I think you know definitely goes toe to toe with it
[00:06:03] in terms of you know kind of that richness and depth and yeah and the actors are great it's a
[00:06:09] great story it's bit gruesome though I don't know if it would be your cup of tea oh I love I love gruesome
[00:06:18] soft no I mean it depends I like everything it you just has to make sense to me that's basically
[00:06:25] yeah not gratuity you know not sort of violence but yeah yeah exactly yeah cool so what about you
[00:06:33] listen you know I haven't been feeling I'm not at my best health wise as you know but I still
[00:06:39] managed to drag myself to the theatre to see poor things oh yeah which I was did you think yeah
[00:06:49] I was so in the well by it I just as I left I was underwhelmed and I was just like you know
[00:06:59] it was it's a kind of an aesthetic of Kahu and Junne you know the delicate lesson
[00:07:07] I made it for films even Costa Rica in some ways but like cleaner and more aesthetic
[00:07:14] a septic so it has that kind of which they call you know steam punk aesthetic which is a sort
[00:07:21] of Victorian futurism so there's that that aesthetic but what's really I mean the hypothesis
[00:07:28] of the film is basically that a woman is saved or a reanimated brought back to life by implanting
[00:07:36] the brain of her a child there was in her womb in her brain and so she comes back to life with
[00:07:44] the brain of a child and then the whole film develops with this character played by Emma Stone who's
[00:07:50] this grown woman who has the brain of a child but the brain is developing at fast speed so obviously
[00:07:58] throughout the film she begins as a toddler and then she finishes as a sort of young adult or a
[00:08:05] teenager and the choice of Yagos Nantimos was to how this hypothesis which was that the character
[00:08:13] was going to be extremely free sexually and was going to explore the world so she leaves the house
[00:08:19] of the Frankensteinian character that brought her to life there's no out of hint of hair
[00:08:25] there's no like the medieval would say humans of the body you don't have any lucky substances
[00:08:31] you know it's so clean and the way she discover sex is so immediately delivered to the male
[00:08:41] characters and you know and she goes out to discover the world and she talks to about six people
[00:08:48] like the world she discovers is so small and many men and and then there's this scene
[00:08:55] the the brothel scene and I'm not pretty sure by any stretch of the imagine if anything I
[00:09:00] wanted more flesh more stuff for me this was falsely daring and you know the the vision the visuals
[00:09:09] of a young beautiful woman fucking a whole array of inverted commerce monstrous men is such a
[00:09:18] trope and because the thing with film and I find this irresponsible is that we remember images more
[00:09:25] than narratives when we're watching films and we're in that immersive contemplative state the images
[00:09:32] stay and I mean I have the image of those two kids watching that sex scene and it's never going
[00:09:37] to go away and I don't want my subconscious with that kind of gratuitous and imaginative
[00:09:44] image in my head that didn't serve any purpose whatsoever I liked it I loved it I thought
[00:09:49] it was great I mean I you know I see what you're saying about you know kind of the shock of
[00:09:56] you know women and sex like it's not you know particularly shocking but I mean I think he was
[00:10:03] trying to take us on a ride you know and he was giving us this futuristic you know surreal
[00:10:11] atmosphere to to examine it I mean I think he's probably not going to show goosebumps and
[00:10:18] and harden nipples because that's just not the kind of film he is making you know he's making
[00:10:23] something in a hyper reality you know this woman has been patched together from you know from you know
[00:10:30] the remains of her unborn child you know he is this is all from this you know Frankenstein
[00:10:39] the who was the guy that played her played her dad was it will give the phone that's it yeah
[00:10:46] so it's all from his favorite dream I mean even talked about like you know I thought I might
[00:10:50] want to have sex with her but I you know I can't cross that line it's like you know so all of
[00:10:56] that is is out there he is creating someone maybe in somewhere in his mind that is more than a daughter you
[00:11:03] know and I mean she's you know I mean I see what you mean in terms of you know the fact that she
[00:11:11] wants to have sex and feels empowered by sex is not a radical idea yeah I mean I think you know
[00:11:18] another read on that is so she starts off very much in the mold of you know what male
[00:11:24] sexuality is expecting from women and then she feels more empowered as she lives her life and
[00:11:34] explores I think my interpretation of it is different than yours and yeah anyway yeah we're going
[00:11:41] to go into what brought us here today so do you want to introduce Gerhard Hister for our listeners?
[00:11:49] Yeah for sure so happy to so this week we're looking at Gerhard Hister who has an exhibition
[00:11:55] at the David's Werner Gallery in London until the 20th of March I wasn't familiar with the name
[00:12:01] and then once I got to the exhibition and saw a couple of the squeegee paintings there was a bell
[00:12:10] that rang somewhere in my mind and I was like ah he seems pretty big like I think I have seen
[00:12:16] this stuff before and I was shocked that the name wasn't sort of right on the tip of my tongue
[00:12:21] and right at the front of my memory because I mean this guy gets phrases like greatest living
[00:12:30] painter attached to him most expensive painting ever in the world is attached to him so it's like
[00:12:38] there's that I mean he's he's credited with saving painting yeah so I was a bit humbled by the fact
[00:12:45] that I when you mentioned that this is one that we should cover that it didn't ring any bells immediately
[00:12:51] can I tell you I was a bit I'm in full disclosure now for our listeners I was a bit cheeky
[00:12:57] with you because I told you about Hister and you said yeah I've seen the show and I'd love to take
[00:13:03] this on and I thought yes I want Emily to take this on because she's not you're not affected
[00:13:10] by all the conversations in all the intensity around him and I wanted to hear your side of the
[00:13:17] story and how you would present him because you're intelligent, you're sensible, you love art
[00:13:23] and at the same time you're not kind of like you know formed by all this scholarship around it
[00:13:30] so I apologize in front of all our listeners because Emily then sent me a text message saying
[00:13:37] this guy is huge yeah what I was like he's like a slippery ball it's like you can't really
[00:13:47] get a grip on it you know and you like you think you have it sort of steady in your hands and that
[00:13:52] it slips out again and also if I may add you're coming at the end of his career so he's 92 years old
[00:14:00] so you just had to take on the task of just getting the whole career of an artist you still alive
[00:14:08] who's talking to things that make a lot of sense to us still and he has met everyone in the art
[00:14:15] worlds he's followed by lots of critics our historians so it was a huge enterprise Emily and I honestly
[00:14:27] I think you're you're great. I'm sorry for doing this. We shall see we shall see our listeners will be
[00:14:33] the the determinant of that but there's loads of things that have been written about him so I
[00:14:39] don't want to make it sound like that's not the case but he's also quite a private person I mean
[00:14:44] he had this John Cage quote that he was fond of I have nothing to say and I'm saying it you know
[00:14:49] and that kind of felt a bit like him it's like there's volumes on this guy and still I didn't
[00:14:55] feel like I was getting to grips with them and I can also add that he did say that for him painting which
[00:15:04] is you know of course he has other mediums but it's his main occupation and it's his main worry
[00:15:11] was for him a way of thinking without words so his relationship to painting is very different from
[00:15:18] gustons I think guston was very visceral about painting whereas Hester is not in that relationship of
[00:15:28] body to body with with the canvas there's something else going on that that we will explore for
[00:15:34] short today yeah yeah exactly he was born in Dresden Germany in 1932 his father was a teacher
[00:15:40] his mother was a bookseller and it had an avid interest in literature and music she was quite a cultured
[00:15:46] woman when Garehard was three the family moved to the countryside which was a huge blow
[00:15:53] to his mother who just really loved the cultural buzz of Dresden but this was a move that surely
[00:16:00] saved their lives I mean Dresden was obliterated in World War II so I mean it's really hard to imagine
[00:16:08] that they would have been you know as safe as they were in the countryside so of course a year
[00:16:15] after he was born the National Socialist Party to control the Nazi Party and Hitler was Chancellor
[00:16:23] in 1939 Hitler invaded Poland and his father was constructed to fight on the eastern front
[00:16:30] so that meant that rickshaw was without his father between the ages of seven and 14 you know
[00:16:36] so his mother had more freedom to indulge him in the arts he was her favorite he had a younger
[00:16:41] sister but his mother really adored Garehard and very much encouraged his artistic endeavours
[00:16:51] and she you know she had a the the the marital match was not a great one you know she sort of thought
[00:16:58] of herself as the intellectual superior to her husband and her husband you know who was
[00:17:05] teacher and then was constructed to fight in the in the war she was disappointed that he didn't
[00:17:13] distinguish himself in what sense well intellectually or in the war like becoming a war hero what
[00:17:20] what did she mean I mean I don't know that he was a war hero you know I think he fought in the war
[00:17:25] and had a miserable time for seven years and came back as a you know somewhat broken man as I mean
[00:17:31] I imagine a lot of yeah well did you know more people came back you know as opposed to um marina
[00:17:38] a brum of itch's parents who were war heroes you know and very much had the valor around them for that
[00:17:44] I don't get the sense that rickshaw's dad came back you know with that kind of prominence at all so she was
[00:17:50] yeah he was a social climber you know she liked the cultural buzz and you know the society around it
[00:17:58] and she wanted to have some status in that and he wasn't interested you know Gerhard was the
[00:18:04] prime funnel through which she poured all of her undefeelt hopes so oh my gosh you know I mean
[00:18:14] no pressure I mean so ever you think of someone who's disappointed about their husband not
[00:18:19] distinguishing themselves and then you generate a son who is the greatest living painter you know
[00:18:25] gets called to greatest you know it's like there's as symbiosis there you know we get heard
[00:18:31] that had said you know that his mother had an elitist way about her to be a meaningful person from
[00:18:36] her perspective one had to be a writer and artist or intellectual so some pressure okay I'd have
[00:18:42] her for sure yeah that's that lays it all out and you know but and what I find incredible is
[00:18:49] that she had all this ambition while they were watching Dresden being bombed yeah so after the war
[00:18:56] rickshaw failed every subject in a college prep school even drawing and you know it did
[00:19:02] reference the fact that after the war his father comes back and they had to do a lot of bordering
[00:19:09] for food I mean food with scarce times were incredibly difficult sorry sorry it's been
[00:19:15] dropped but apparently he also had an aunt who had some form of mental illness to get a friend
[00:19:22] was hospitalized you know but it commas by denotes and ended up dying I think in in great suffering
[00:19:31] you know so he was in some way his family was also the victim of of this Nazi ideology I guess
[00:19:38] for sure yeah no she was from what I read it wasn't she was in a camp and starved to death
[00:19:46] because she wasn't in camp she was yeah goodness me you know the largest portion was Jewish people
[00:19:53] that were in the camps but there were also queer people and migrants and any any people that they
[00:20:01] thought were just not great for the area in race yeah you genics was in you know you genics was like a
[00:20:09] a big trend it was it was trending mass trending yeah one viral he takes two apprenticeships
[00:20:18] in sign making and stage craft and then he applies to the Dresden art academy his portfolio was
[00:20:25] rejected for being two bourgeois at the time so this is both for Germany and they suggested
[00:20:33] that he take a state job and then reapply as applicants from from state jobs were favored
[00:20:39] so he did that and got into the Dresden academy in 1951 so so so now Richter who left Dresden when
[00:20:48] he was three and now he's 19 is moved back to Dresden but it's a mess I mean it's an absolute mess
[00:20:58] after the war so the bombing attack on Dresden stands among the most controversial allied actions
[00:21:04] of World War II it was a war crime so okay the 13th to the 15th of February 1945 800 bombers
[00:21:12] dropped some 2700 tons of explosives and incendiaries on the city oh my god I your storm erupted there
[00:21:21] yeah tens of thousands died I mean it was an absolute atrocity so not to you know give sort of a
[00:21:30] justification to the bombing of Dresden but it took place three weeks after after the discovery
[00:21:37] of Auschwitz and four weeks after the Battle of the Bulls were 19,000 troops were killed
[00:21:44] US troops were killed so when Richter is going to academy he's waiting through Rebel to get to his
[00:21:49] classes I mean it's just Rebel's buildings everywhere so Dresden you know is not the cultural
[00:21:56] capital that Richter's mother enjoyed anymore obviously I mean the destroyers completely destroyed
[00:22:03] but also there's not that ethic there anymore so after the war art is a vehicle to glorify
[00:22:10] work and socialist ideas so there isn't this this freedom unless you're painting someone's
[00:22:17] swing in a hammer or waving a flag you know it's not really acceptable but I mean nonetheless Richter
[00:22:24] learned mural painting and he continued some commercial work as a sign painter which I think
[00:22:30] is also like the sign painting I feel like that comes back later on in his work and oh yes some of
[00:22:36] the some of the paintings that you see of more mundane things of some kind of the photo paintings
[00:22:43] that he does and there's a discussion that he has in one of the videos I saw online
[00:22:51] and I think it was the curator at the tape it was the video around the panorama exhibition
[00:22:56] and they were like well why did you leave and he was like it was terrible it was absolutely
[00:23:03] terrible so I mean but it's funny with people who don't express themselves a lot
[00:23:08] and who don't expand on the emotions that terrible carries so much weight when he talks about it
[00:23:17] because in Dresden and I think this is important and that's why I'm bringing this up in the academy
[00:23:24] that's where he found out about the camps and he found out about the camps through pictures
[00:23:31] through photographs and that's a crucial moment for him because they were there studying
[00:23:38] glorifying whatever you know political system was being established I think the beginning of the 20
[00:23:45] centuries or film where you could see his studio and he still has a photograph of the camps being
[00:23:55] you know discovered and dealt with by the allies and it's through a window of a plane
[00:24:03] and he just says you know I have the image here and what really strikes me is that there's a
[00:24:08] casual conversation and you see the bodies lying you know piled up and two soldiers that are talking
[00:24:15] are chatting and he still had that image and I think that is a crucial thing for his work
[00:24:22] and this idea of the science as well with this idea of like how language can immediately become
[00:24:28] propaganda I think is really important to him yeah in 1959 director visited an exhibition showcasing
[00:24:35] works by Jackson Pollock and others which made it richer aware that there was something wrong
[00:24:40] with my whole way of thinking so in March 61 just a few months before the construction of
[00:24:47] the Berlin wall began he travels to Moscow and Leningrad as a tourist carrying a ton of
[00:24:53] luggage way more than he needed and on his journey back he just remained on the train as it went
[00:24:59] through to West Germany he gets off the train leaves all his bags in storage returns to
[00:25:06] Dresden to get his wife Emma Emma and then a friend drives them to East Berlin and apparently
[00:25:13] there was this loophole at the time where it's like if you took the underground which still connected
[00:25:19] East and West Berlin you could you could just get on and take it over and from that point on he
[00:25:26] doesn't see his family I mean that's the last time and he had you know he had these creative
[00:25:33] connections in Dresden as well which were really meaningful and important to him and I think some
[00:25:38] of those people he sees again but you know that if you don't move you're not going to be working
[00:25:45] in the way that you want to and you just have to leave even though you have so many roots there
[00:25:50] the moral of this story to me is the power of exhibitions he goes he sees this exhibition of
[00:25:55] Pollock in 59 and yes 61 so people let's not underestimate how life changing going to an exhibition
[00:26:04] can be oh yeah for sure we sell some ducal dorshe and he studies at the academy there
[00:26:13] and he explores paintings relationship to photography mostly through images of
[00:26:18] families often his own you know you mentioned his aunt Mary Anne so there's a one that he does
[00:26:25] of his aunt Mary Anne who was killed in a camp for schizophrenia his uncle Rudy who died fighting
[00:26:32] in the war so these are part of you know his early work and photographic images and he does
[00:26:38] a lot on military aircraft so yeah these these are really incredible paintings of photos of
[00:26:45] Allied war planes dropping dropping bombs he comes at a point in the history of art or in
[00:26:55] contemporary art let's say at the end of the of the 20th century where painting had been proclaimed to be
[00:27:03] dead many times we had a job photography shop so he developed photographs he did that to earn
[00:27:11] some money in the beginning of of his career this was a foundational experience for him
[00:27:17] because he was working on what had killed photography so historically photography constrained
[00:27:26] painting and made it it turned painting into something that was not
[00:27:32] was difficult to validate and was difficult to defend unless it became abstract
[00:27:38] expressionist that is revealing internal states unless it became very conceptual and monochromatic
[00:27:47] so this is all I'm kind of tracing all the history of painting until him and when he looks at
[00:27:53] those photographs he said I want to do a photograph with painting and that's the thing that's
[00:27:58] the hook of the beginning in his practice so here's painting comes after photography and
[00:28:04] imitates photography so he became very known for inserting into painting the glossiness of
[00:28:11] photography the bluriness so he's interested in photographs that don't work the ones that people
[00:28:18] would chuck away when he was in this shop did I'm or am I would approve totally totally and so he was
[00:28:27] you know he was not painting what he saw his whole practice of painting had to do with looking
[00:28:35] at images and therefore that foundational moment where he saw the camps in those images and
[00:28:41] what are those images saying about history and about tragedy and about cruelty and about humanity
[00:28:51] and so painting comes as a second layer where you're thinking about those images but what a task
[00:28:58] yeah he comes from the country that shocked the whole world and he's making paintings that are
[00:29:06] you know flowers clouds landscapes that seem aggressive in some ways to certain critics and
[00:29:13] he developed a very big friendship with a big huge art historian called Benjamin Bookloat who was a
[00:29:20] German who immigrated to the United States they've been friends for 50 years and Bookloat says that
[00:29:26] he they mostly don't agree because Bookloat is this kind of this kind of art historian who is a
[00:29:33] Marxist so he sees history as a sort of progression towards something and so of course for him
[00:29:39] it no longer may make sense to paint but then you keep on painting and painting and art is on a
[00:29:49] few pillars that are very strong obviously all men Marcel Duchamp Robert Rime and Jasper Jones
[00:29:56] he is this kind of art historian who is thinking in terms of culture immediately and never in
[00:30:02] terms of the subconscious in terms of what an image can visually bring up in you and Ristor
[00:30:10] is always keeps his enemies enemies close he said that and I can't remember what paintings those were
[00:30:19] but I think probably Jasper Jones and someone else that he kept images of them in
[00:30:23] his studio because he couldn't understand them and he doesn't agree with them so he is humble
[00:30:30] in his stance because he is revered by bringing people the solace of being able to look at
[00:30:38] beautiful images without guilt so without going against the prompt of modernism and the oven
[00:30:47] gods and at the same time bringing a sort of criticism and a sort of moral or ethical ground
[00:30:58] where painting can stand on and I'm not sure he's very happy about that because he's not here
[00:31:04] to serve people beauty again I don't presume that's not his goal he's deeply thinking about the
[00:31:11] power of images and how painting can redeem or not and of course Benjamin Bucro says that's
[00:31:19] a failure the whole Ristor project is a failure and is that kind of art historian that just
[00:31:26] when you think a failure of modernism of utopia is high why are we talking about this in this sense
[00:31:33] because art doesn't have that impact on culture you know because he's used these exhibitions and
[00:31:40] things in those terms but you know so he talks about the modernist project and whatever as big
[00:31:46] failures and because everything is going towards something based on Marcel Gishan who changed everything
[00:31:52] in a lot think he's very humble because he knows he's taking on a huge task and he's just a man
[00:31:57] and he's just a person who lives something really gruesome that brought to him a very specific perspective
[00:32:04] of being the hated German but also the one who suffits Uncle Rudy is an incredible painting where
[00:32:11] I remember seeing it back in the day and thinking oh my gosh he did it yeah he's he's quite a character
[00:32:19] yeah totally so he moves to abstraction which obviously a lot of painters were we're doing
[00:32:26] that time I mean that wasn't a sort of you know a new thing you know he did a lot of these gray paintings
[00:32:32] and he did these color studies which were basically kind of think of a pentown chart of color
[00:32:39] color charts yeah exactly I mean he did a lot of that and he's funny because in the film sorry
[00:32:45] in the film I watched Robert Stor is going around a big retrospective exhibition he had with him
[00:32:52] he's probably the curator of the exhibition and he says well you know he's always trying to see
[00:32:58] say is this abstract that's the question it keeps on asking because for art critics is like where
[00:33:03] is the abstraction is the blurring is the abstraction where can we save this beautiful painting of
[00:33:09] a clouds that is so appealing but that who that no longer makes sense when we think about everything
[00:33:15] we've gone through during the 20th century and he says well no it's not abstract it's a color chart
[00:33:21] so I had a color chart and I just copied it and he's just looking at images and one of the
[00:33:27] the the works that I remember seeing of his and thinking I don't care what is happening here
[00:33:32] is the Atlas so the Atlas is a huge collection of images and I remember being struck by an image
[00:33:40] of a man being eaten by a lion in that he took from a newspaper and apparently was something
[00:33:48] that happened at the Berlin Zoo where a man fell on the on the lion pit and the lions grabbed
[00:33:54] him and killed him and ate him and I remember looking at that image there was so hard to look at
[00:34:00] you know he's thinking why would he include this in the next a bit why is he showing us these working
[00:34:07] images and I was I I never forgot that image because it was so hard to look at
[00:34:14] and I remember thinking this is the kind of thing that will see in the newspaper and I will
[00:34:18] come put I will turn the page very quickly yeah but we'll obsessively think about it and I
[00:34:23] remember thinking about that obsessively for a few days it comes up and you think wow what is this
[00:34:29] and you really is someone who's tackling all kinds of images why was there why was there an image
[00:34:36] of that and I think that makes a lot of sense in terms of questions when we think about
[00:34:41] I think I've been reading a bit of black activists talking about the images of black men
[00:34:50] mostly being shot or being killed like George Floyd obviously the horrible murder of George Floyd
[00:34:57] and others in the press and the videos that someone took from a camera and saying this is this is
[00:35:03] black suffering porn yeah and I remember thinking I'm not gonna watch these videos again and I make
[00:35:09] a this I made a decision of not reading the text and not looking at the image and I think he's
[00:35:15] asking that question I mean there's a personal thing I'm not saying that you shouldn't look at them
[00:35:18] and I think that's what the questions he's asking like why are these images coming up
[00:35:23] and but if I hadn't had those images in Dresden I wouldn't have known so specifically
[00:35:29] what was going on you know looking a bit further ahead I mean the butter mine half paintings
[00:35:36] you know that he took ore of September, September 11th you know paintings that he did
[00:35:41] off of images from the day I don't know those ones I'm never seen them yeah it's kind of the
[00:35:50] very iconic picture of the twin towers and the first plane that goes in and the explosion from it so
[00:35:58] he does the above butter mine half was maybe I think 10 years after the the terror attacks and so
[00:36:08] butter mine half was the group that was operated in West Germany and it was pro communism and
[00:36:15] socialism and it was kind of very left wing extremist and then you know did had you know
[00:36:22] various terror attacks over a couple of decades one big one in in 1977 and then obviously that
[00:36:28] the twin towers attack it was a few I think it was eight years after that he showed those works
[00:36:35] from from the photographs of the day but yeah it's interesting isn't it but he waits a decade
[00:36:43] in both instances and then paints it like he's trying to say don't forget this this half
[00:36:52] they don't say anything about those people and they show someone alive and then they show
[00:36:59] someone on the ground dead they're they're quite impactful very strong and they also absorbed
[00:37:07] that's inability of photography to say anything about something it just leaves the thing in the open
[00:37:14] I have nothing to say and I'm saying it I mean back to that John did you know
[00:37:20] but yeah I thought he was saying I have nothing to say okay yeah we need to go on with this all right
[00:37:25] well yeah yeah yeah he's going back to the du champ reference and the picture that he made of
[00:37:38] Emma his wife Emma yes the nude of her coming down the stairs and that was his just sending a
[00:37:45] set yeah exactly and that was his sort of response to du champs was it cubus yeah his du champs
[00:37:56] he was du champs attempt at cubism which was unconvincing for the cubus there's a big story behind
[00:38:02] that painting which is that he was very very influenced by sequential photography by mower bridge
[00:38:12] particularly by etienne du mower he was kind of the mower bridge counterpart of France and so these
[00:38:17] were photographs that were done in the in the 19th century where the same movement was printed
[00:38:26] on the same photograph so you could see someone walking or jumping and you could see all the movements
[00:38:33] of that action yeah and so he was much more fascinated by that than by cubism of course he wanted
[00:38:40] to be part of a group you always want to belong and you want to show your work but du champ was
[00:38:48] fascinated by technology he was basically you know he was he was going solo I mean he was thinking
[00:38:55] about and that's what's interesting of the disconnect between rister and and mower said du champ
[00:39:02] is that he was also thinking of images du champ but he was thinking in terms of linguistics of the
[00:39:07] of the power of words and concepts over images and so because a massive du champ also said
[00:39:14] dumb as a painter he was not into painting du champ so for him painting if painting was only
[00:39:20] written in was only something that pertain to the eye and your relationship between the eye
[00:39:27] what you see on the canvas and reality that wasn't enough and he was in love with photography
[00:39:32] and that was so interesting yeah because rister goes to photography but how it produces images
[00:39:39] so the side of the image produced whereas du champ is interested in the deconstruction
[00:39:45] through technology of the mind he was someone who thought a lot about exhibition spaces museums are new
[00:39:52] if you think about it you haven't had museums for a time in history you know painting was for the
[00:39:58] people who could afford them or for the churches but it wasn't a space and du champ thought a lot
[00:40:06] about what you do in that space and how you behave and what the spectator is doing there what are
[00:40:12] you doing there is an artist as well what are you what kind of experience are you promoting so yeah
[00:40:18] the one of the things that looking into rector made me think about is so I think i told you
[00:40:24] have been reading this EM forest or two chairs for democracy it's a collection of of of
[00:40:32] writings and of lectures that he'd given and he has one that is entitled art for art sake
[00:40:42] i don't know if you've heard this one before but it's but he kind of talks about how to
[00:40:46] know those writings i'm really enjoying it it's kind of nice like on a practical level because
[00:40:52] they're short and it's a good given to powder you know so like you sort of keep it around and
[00:41:00] you can you can consume one in a sitting and it's you know without too much effort but and this
[00:41:06] this kind of made me think of rikters environment in treston before he left east Germany
[00:41:15] because EM forester is talking about order as it is understood from a state perspective as orders
[00:41:25] and order from an artist perspective which is internal and he's saying that art is an expression
[00:41:32] of internal order so it's like there's no critiquing it you know there's no this is right or wrong
[00:41:39] it's it's an expression of an internal order and that it's it's one of the only ways that you can
[00:41:44] actually engage with somebody's internal order just to read a little bit so that the second
[00:41:51] possibility for order lies in the aesthetic category which is my subject here the order which an
[00:41:56] artist can create his own work work of art we are all agreed is a unique product but why
[00:42:03] is it unique it is unique not because it is clever or noble or beautiful or enlightened or
[00:42:09] original or sincere or idealistic or useful or educational it may embody all of those qualities or
[00:42:15] none of them it's unique because it is the only material object in the universe which may
[00:42:22] possess internal harmony all others have been pressed into shape from the outside and when
[00:42:29] their mold is removed they collapse a work of art stands up by itself and nothing else does
[00:42:36] it achieves something which has often been promised by society but always delusively delusively
[00:42:46] yeah delusively I don't get forced to yeah yeah so he says Renaissance Rome made a mess
[00:42:57] but the ceiling of the 16 chapel got painted James the first made a mess but there was McMig Beth
[00:43:05] Louis the 14th also but there was fedare fedare I don't know that one begins with that
[00:43:13] but art for arts sake I should think so but more than ever at the present time so he I mean
[00:43:21] he talked about McBeth and more detail and he was saying you know yeah you learned a little bit
[00:43:26] about Scotland you learn a little bit about Jacoby and England and there but really what you're
[00:43:32] learning is Shakespeare's point of view is Shakespeare's perception and creativity and you know take
[00:43:41] on all of it that's the point of it is not you know it's not valuable because you learn a little
[00:43:47] something on the side although that could be valuable anyway it kind of it made me think of Richter
[00:43:54] because of the conditions that he was in in East Germany and that transition across that
[00:44:02] invisible line between East and West Germany do Sean was notorious for being very weary of the
[00:44:11] taste and the notion of habit so he wanted as soon as he thought he was developing a
[00:44:17] any form of style because style is what defines something recognizable within the body of work
[00:44:26] he would move to something else he didn't want to be recognizable and it's funny because Taniko
[00:44:30] that's also said that she said that in her own exhibition all the works could have been made by
[00:44:36] ten different artists and that she loved that and so this idea of the personal perspective is
[00:44:42] such a tricky one because art for art sake is definitely the other extreme of Benjamin Bookle
[00:44:49] you know it's not about culture it's not holding the culture it's not teaching you anything is just
[00:44:56] standing there for someone because Forster was a writer and I was thinking about the importance
[00:45:02] of printed images of the fact that suddenly after photography you can replicate images and the print
[00:45:12] as opposed to photography for literature was liberating so the fact that you can reprint and reprint a book
[00:45:19] is liberating you get to your readership and you develop a relationship to the written word that
[00:45:25] was unprecedented but when it comes to replicating images through technology when images are
[00:45:32] reproducible then the uniqueness or the perspective of the artist is no longer based on a single object
[00:45:43] it's no longer it loses I mean Benjamin Valtabanyam and talked about the loss of the the loss
[00:45:50] of the aura of the artwork because when you're talking about images you're not rep I mean the material
[00:45:58] of the artwork is what makes the artwork that's specific object and that brings us to the exhibition
[00:46:04] because yeah he's there with all the apprehension he has about Mase Dushon about certain avanguards
[00:46:14] he has one of his most famous paintings in the exhibition photograph so it's an addition it's an
[00:46:23] addition to artwork and it's the skull oh yeah I you know we were without daughter and I said oh this
[00:46:30] is one of his famous paintings but something was off from afar and as we got there I thought
[00:46:36] this is not the painting it's under glass what the heck is this and so it is an image of his own artwork
[00:46:43] that you can and that is worked on there's a sort of layering of grays up above like a sort of a
[00:46:50] digital file almost and it's really interesting that he so it has a whole bunch of works
[00:46:58] and you have another version of that in the exhibition on the first floor which is the mirrors
[00:47:04] yeah and so he works a lot on sculptures that work that replicate the glossy side of photography
[00:47:12] when you use to print photographs you know from analogic cameras and from film the you had a
[00:47:21] sort of a certain glossiness to them that made them appealing as objects the the fact that when
[00:47:27] you're looking at a photograph even if you go to photography exhibitions you are yourself reflected
[00:47:32] on on the on the glass or on the photograph especially if you have very dot photographs so he
[00:47:39] his relationship to the image the painted images mediated in some ways and already
[00:47:44] welcome someone else in them because you know there's a very famous one which says tortoise or
[00:47:51] something in German the word is cut very famous painting from the 80s and it was a
[00:47:59] paper newspaper cutting a little bit like Cuchviter's could have done before Cuchviter's
[00:48:06] who was actually had to flee Germany to come to England and was in a camp here an immigrant camp
[00:48:12] for a long long time stuff with quite a bit and he would also work with newspaper cuttings
[00:48:18] but Hester is painting them so he's imitating them in some ways but that organization of the
[00:48:24] newspaper was done by someone else right and you show us that something really interesting as well
[00:48:30] is that he invented the ready-made so this idea of the work is already made because I'm just
[00:48:35] taking objects to the exhibition space and he also said the tubes of paint are ready-made so even if
[00:48:43] you're painting at the moment you're not making your own pigments so you're already producing
[00:48:47] ready-mates with painting whatever you do afterwards as an image whatever you produce or whatever
[00:48:53] you paint you're already using ready-mates which are tubes of paint so you're already in an industrialized
[00:48:59] world full of images hmm so yeah I should talk about the exhibition but the the the skull
[00:49:11] and the reflective nature of the glass so that you see yourself in the image as well as seeing
[00:49:17] the image itself that's the bit that made me think of the Vietnam War Memorial in DC did you ever
[00:49:24] see it when you were there so this is the one in different huge wall and it's all of the names
[00:49:33] of those who died or were missing in World War II or in Vietnam and it's really it was really
[00:49:41] controversial when it was when it was made by this undergraduate artist at Yale who's parents
[00:49:54] immigrated to the states from China and the the work is all below ground so the wall is like cut into
[00:50:05] the ground so you kind of you go down this ramp to look at all of the names oh yes and the name
[00:50:12] number two yes the surface is a very glossy black that the names are as into so you can't help but see
[00:50:21] yourself as you are regarding the names and the way that it goes is you know it kind of starts small
[00:50:28] and then gets really thick in the middle and then gets smaller again and that represents the
[00:50:34] sort of timeline of the war where not that many people died at first and then just so many people died
[00:50:40] in that middle bit and then there was you know it was kind of a you know a war that we tipped out into
[00:50:47] and then tried to tipto out of so the you know the deaths were less towards the the tail end as
[00:50:54] well but the so it kind of represents that that timeline and people did not like it because it was
[00:51:02] not valorous or honorable like you know most war memorials are you know you think of people
[00:51:08] waving flags you think of people doing something soldiers doing something commanding and with a
[00:51:15] lot of heroism and this was like now let's just look at the names of the dead and the way that it
[00:51:23] was done as well the fact that it was underground it just everybody was like this is to morbid it was
[00:51:29] actually held up by the Reagan administration because there was so much turmoil over can we actually
[00:51:37] put something like this on the Washington Mall but what I mean was it's made what it went away
[00:51:45] time it was the 80s yeah really 80s so yeah Reagan yeah yeah it would have been you know for sure
[00:51:56] so what do you think what do you what what do you what would you make of it yeah I mean I think
[00:52:01] I think she was not the usual artist for this kind of thing and came at it with a really
[00:52:09] different realistic approach I mean this was a war of you know just insufferable tragedy in
[00:52:17] loss you know I mean and you know so avoidable so I mean you know just pointless I mean we can't say
[00:52:27] we won but the I think what she does what she did brilliantly with it is just reflect the tragedy of
[00:52:35] it all it was tragic this was just a really glossy black and it was underground and but but that
[00:52:44] it did bring to mind how he brings you the viewer into what he's doing through that reflective
[00:52:53] nature and at first when I first thought I was annoyed you know because I felt like I couldn't kind
[00:52:57] of get as good a look at it as I wanted to and that's the point is it was this too and then the
[00:53:06] mirror upstairs you are completely in the image there's the it yields to you and and to the
[00:53:14] your surroundings in a way that is so bizarre when you think of an artist who's so prolific like he
[00:53:22] was and he painted absolutely everything it's also ready made it's also a mirror I mean in as much
[00:53:29] as it is something that exists outside and is an object that you place in your home with a certain
[00:53:34] function maybe had it cuts to a certain I don't know about the dimensions I wonder if it's
[00:53:40] Polaroid dementia I kind of wonder because it's kind of square but really made were not just placing
[00:53:46] objects in the in the museum sometimes do you show or would write something on them you would turn
[00:53:53] them around I mean they were just you know placing objects in the exhibition space so it's it's kind
[00:54:00] of funny to see that he kind of goes there so those are the two works in the exhibition that
[00:54:07] are reminiscent of how much earlier works from the 80s and the 90s and then you have a very
[00:54:16] surprising presence of drawing in the exhibition it's just it's just so strange why did you find
[00:54:25] it strange I don't think I'd ever seen I'd seen reproductions of drawings he made but
[00:54:32] probably from his Atlas I think but I had never seen these very free
[00:54:40] although within certain constraints of the the the the stain or the the evolution of the material
[00:54:49] on the paper and then this kind of game he plays at some point he seems to be placing eyes on the shapes
[00:54:58] he made me think of that the another Da Vinci writing where he says if you look at a stain of mold
[00:55:05] on the wall you will see a battle you will see a tempest you will end up seeing stuff and he seems
[00:55:11] like he's playing that game at some point I didn't see it I was my husband Jules there with me
[00:55:20] and washed out his daughter and they said yeah obviously there's a bird here there's a duck
[00:55:25] that hadn't seen that all and I was saying but maybe you were saying we had to hold the bait in there
[00:55:32] like you seeing this or do you think he did it on purpose so that was not what I expected to be
[00:55:37] talking about in the next edition by Gaehan Hishtha yeah so that was that was surprising
[00:55:44] so there's lots of drawing downstairs and then there's the collage as well there's those collages
[00:55:50] those like construction paper collage what did you think of those so people who have not been there
[00:55:56] it is like literally construction paper that your kids would have cut in different shapes
[00:56:02] yeah and glue together and there's actual kind of stains from the glue like you see
[00:56:11] like the messiness of of construction. Like your five year old was doing something exactly
[00:56:18] it's like your five year old was doing was making a drawing and you go like yeah well you can
[00:56:22] see the glue but it's fine honey you did amazing assemblages of colors.
[00:56:27] Yeah what do you think of those? I see I found those the most surprising. Oh yeah me too and we
[00:56:34] were a bit baffled by them to be honest all of us. This is David's varnas now working with him
[00:56:39] and you know probably he's going into the studio and looking at stuff that hasn't
[00:56:43] been looked at and so those drawings also what you could see is that they have dates
[00:56:49] so they seem to be drawings that he's making on a specific day and they made me think of the
[00:56:54] equivalent by Alfred's diglets which were a text or Alfred's diglets was Jojo keeps husband to
[00:57:02] he's a well he was a photographer very big friend of you shown by the way and he decided to take pictures
[00:57:07] of this guy in order to test the ability of photography, the landscape or an atmospheric
[00:57:20] situation to be abstract basically and so you have beautiful images of different skies,
[00:57:25] different clouds and you know they're not monumental pictures, there's more pictures.
[00:57:31] It's quite a famous endeavor in in art history and they kind of made me think of that they
[00:57:38] kind of atmospheric and strange and then he goes as usual and he kind of has to do another layer
[00:57:43] of things and he traces lines on them and the papers are also these kind of geometric
[00:57:50] like cuttings and they're very colorful so they're different colors they have strong yellows
[00:57:56] and they also replicate something that I had never thought about and then they made me think
[00:58:00] about where a history's colors for the abstract works because he never has pastels. He always
[00:58:07] has very loud striking colors and it was what you could find in those drawings and I wondered
[00:58:14] because the way he makes those abstract paintings is that he starts by gesturing on the canvas with
[00:58:20] certain colors. He kind of has an expansive gesture which could be finished paintings and then
[00:58:27] he starts querying if that could be a verb on them, he starts applying other layers and layers
[00:58:34] of paint that he scrapes off, drags onto the canvas etc and those colors are never pastel.
[00:58:41] They're always loud striking colors and there were the colors of the collages and that's the only
[00:58:47] way I should make because other than that you know I was thinking in an auction in 50 years
[00:58:54] you see that drawing and you see Rister you'll be like yeah Rister? Master the composer?
[00:59:01] Yeah Rister. Yeah yeah yeah so probably the galerist went to his studio and Rister told him you
[00:59:08] know this is kind of like maybe compositions that I made to prepare the abstract paintings that's
[00:59:13] what I thought that's my hypothesis and he said let's show them let's show them you're 92 years old
[00:59:19] at the end of your this may be a good document for someone who's really passionate about the work to
[00:59:24] have because they kind of relate but I honestly don't have an idea or I would be bad.
[00:59:31] Yeah yeah so he has those drawings downstairs and then as you go upstairs
[00:59:41] by the way David's Werner is such a lovely space I love that space it's sort of a townhouse in the
[00:59:47] middle of May fair but it's such a good space I've seen the most amazing exhibitions in there
[00:59:53] has the right size it's not those huge galleries that look like once farines it's an a nice
[00:59:59] sized gallery I always love visiting the shows there you know there's not it's not in a
[01:00:05] safe May fair not with standing and so I went to the first floor and I saw this mirror and I was
[01:00:11] like okay interesting and then there's so that you have the mirror on the left and then you have
[01:00:18] another gray image which kind of connects to the one downstairs it's on the same wall of the
[01:00:25] of the skull but this gray image is empty and he has made these indentations on what it seems
[01:00:35] the glass that covers it and this is also an addition work it's also kind of a photographic style
[01:00:42] kind of work or jpec file kind of work I guess and then in front of it you have this huge
[01:00:51] work that is also photographic and kind of digital like an expansion of colors there are these
[01:00:59] parallel very very thin lines a very different colors that goes across that big big wall there
[01:01:08] and in front of that painting you still have those drawings which are expenses of color
[01:01:14] that he kind of manipulates revisits very atmospheric very beautiful but that seemed to be
[01:01:23] I guess they seem to be the nightmare of each other each work which I found the relationship
[01:01:29] and the dialogue interesting because it's dialectic it's kind of like oppositional or confrontational
[01:01:34] you know the little drawings almost kind of naive sincere drawings on the other side that big
[01:01:45] stretched linear colorful work that is on debon I think it's kind of a printed image on debon with
[01:01:54] the glass over it yeah that he's sophisticated and an industrial and an urban because probably
[01:02:00] like four meters across I mean it's huge I mean it's highly really huge and the moment you get to
[01:02:07] the top of the stairs the thing is pulsing I mean you can't you can't be in that room and not
[01:02:14] feel it like just vibrating with energy I mean it's it's a really kind of remarkable thing to be in front of
[01:02:24] I mean the the front of the panorama book has one of those images and so I you know it was like
[01:02:34] you know you see those images in books and you're like yeah right okay that's that's interesting
[01:02:40] very clean as you say kind of industrial but then when you're standing in front of it it's like oh god
[01:02:47] yeah it's like I don't know how long I can take it you know I mean it's uh yeah and you're right
[01:02:53] then you go into that next room and it's like these sweet watercolors and sketches and very nostalgic
[01:03:00] and they bring you in and they're tender on the eye and kind of tender to the spirit and then this
[01:03:08] thing out there is just pulsing away to its own beaten vibration and what about the abstract so
[01:03:14] downstairs something I did mention is that you have a couple of um abstract paintings or the
[01:03:22] famous works that made you tilt and go wait a minute I know this guy yeah um what do you make
[01:03:29] of those the squeegees I love them I I just love the whole notion of it I mean I love the chance
[01:03:38] I love the curiosity I love the fact so as you said layers and layers of paint he goes on
[01:03:45] not with a brush but with a giant squeegee to like scrape the paint off so I imagine it is just a
[01:03:52] mess to create these and a super physical job it's like you see him working on these with these
[01:03:57] giant squeegees and taking these massive amount of paint off and just kind of deciding you know
[01:04:04] seeing what comes out what colors come out and what sort of shapes come out and when I was
[01:04:11] watching some of the videos about him he's like anytime images come through that look a bit like a
[01:04:17] landscape or anything recognizable I'm I'm obliterating that like I'm scraping beyond it and making sure
[01:04:25] that it's you know that it's not representative of anything do you imagine how did you see
[01:04:32] how he makes these paintings yeah yeah yeah there's lots of videos of him making the paintings
[01:04:39] online and it's kind of hypnotic to watch to be honest you know just to watch him just you know
[01:04:48] because they look so different and then the squeegee goes over them and you cannot imagine what's
[01:04:53] going to emerge and it's you know and then he kind of does sometimes vertical strokes sometimes
[01:05:00] usually I think horizontal strokes but yeah and then sometimes he goes up and down a little bit like
[01:05:07] producing a certain kind of vibration and something you're mudges from it and you're just so
[01:05:12] mesmerized by it and I love that he's not he's not trying to make something he's just seeing
[01:05:19] what gets made I mean and it kind of reminded me of like it's it's I mean it's obviously he stops at a
[01:05:28] certain point and that is the image that we have but you have this sense that it's like like if
[01:05:36] you're writing a document and like it's you're in flow and you've written a bunch and you hit save
[01:05:44] like that's what that document is that's what the text is going to be for then you might add to it
[01:05:50] you know and it might continue or it might just stop there it's a you get this sense of
[01:05:58] of there's of of of of of of of a pausing but not a completion obviously if he were to add
[01:06:06] more paint and you know it would be a very different thing but you get this kind of continuity that
[01:06:13] you're seeing a snapshot of something that is continuous rather than this is a final form
[01:06:21] of course it is a final form but it had a different sensibility to it rather than sort of something
[01:06:27] representation or even just kind of brush stroke abstract which you know is more of the artist saying
[01:06:36] you know this is this is kind of what I have in my mind and this is what I'm making with him
[01:06:43] he's he's seeing what's happening what's going to happen those abstract paintings are also
[01:06:49] strangely going back to the photography thing they also have that glossiness when when he drags
[01:06:56] the grey and the whites and suddenly they have this kind of a dragged quality of uncool rudy as well
[01:07:04] yeah so yeah there's there's so contemporary in some ways like you were comparing it with writing
[01:07:09] a document and just because that was a really interesting comparison it made me think a lot
[01:07:17] about the way I write and I don't write on paper and I remember feeling very guilty
[01:07:22] to not write on paper because I thought oh this I'm not a real writer if I don't write
[01:07:28] if I write on the computer you know and my right is like these things we put on ourselves it's
[01:07:36] like I'll writing with one hand with a pen is obviously a better way to do it rather than
[01:07:41] two hands with a keyboard but yeah yeah that's what writers do is they hold a pen and they write
[01:07:49] on a notebook and I'm very conscious of the fact that what I write on a world document is definitely
[01:07:58] not the same thing I would have written on a notebook it's a completely different way of writing
[01:08:03] and thinking it's a layered thing where you add on and then you can take a whole thing and then
[01:08:08] you can add on and it's not a problem it's not a physical thing to just go oh I wrote this whole text
[01:08:15] on my notebook and now I'm just maybe just scraping away a paragraph so yeah I mean I think we've
[01:08:23] gone over the whole exhibition I mean it wasn't such a huge a huge exhibition what would you take
[01:08:30] from the exhibition home I mean I'm presuming it's not the four meter yeah that I don't think
[01:08:37] I don't think I could have died that in my household but there's one of the watercolors
[01:08:43] let me see I think I would take the skull yeah nice that choice because you know it's an
[01:08:55] nostalgic very unlike me I'm not as you know very keen on nostalgia but there's a story a personal story
[01:09:04] that I've had with Hishita you know I've seen his work when I was studying in Paris I was 19 or
[01:09:12] 20 and I remember going to Marion Goodman Gallery and thinking wow what is this and everyone was
[01:09:20] talking about Hishita because I was studying philosophy first and then I moved on to aesthetics yeah that's
[01:09:24] it that's what I would take home nice yeah and 20 year old Joanna would be so happy with that as well
[01:09:33] so happy delighted so yeah should we wrap this up yeah let's do it so that's it for today I hope
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[01:10:05] a wonderful time thank you bye bye