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Hello everyone, welcome to the podcast if you're new here.
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This is not our typical episode because we have a guest for the
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first time. Our usual method is simply to
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discuss my Co host and I solo exhibitions we visit separately.
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Emily, my Co host, is on sick leave and could not make it to
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the podcast. So we decided to try something
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we have been pondering, which is to invite guests who can bring a
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different perspective to exhibitions but also the art
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world. In my other life as a curator, I
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do interviews with artists and why not bring the skill set to
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this podcast? So there are two things that led
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me to invite today's guest. First of all, she's a blast, and
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secondly, she can put to rest all the questions you may have
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about what it is that art advisors do and how they make
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their money. Yes, that dirty word that we
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don't like to discuss in Europe, But in fact, many people ask
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themselves exactly that, even artists and curators.
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And our first guest, Liberte Nuti, is happy to clarify all of
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this for you. From my perspective, our guest
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is part of a group that I belong to as well, which is all the
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intermediaries between the artist, the art and the private
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or public collection, the museum or the home.
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There are so many agents like myself, a curator, writer and
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podcaster, who contribute to make the art world what it is.
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And talking to us can help understand a lot and break
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certain myths as well. So we will not shy away from the
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fact that much more than curators, art advisors are
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somewhat demonised. Our guest is great at explaining
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the art market and its intricacies quite bluntly.
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Then we move on to the hizz on that of this podcast.
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Fear not, we do mention exhibitions.
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I asked Lee Bertie about her dream exhibitions from the
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distant and recent past as well as her ideal exhibition.
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Let me also remind you to join our Patreon page which is on the
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shows notes and perhaps even support us financially for
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justice, $1.50 a month. So this is my job done.
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Speaking of The Dirty words, Speaking of money, it will help,
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$1.50 is not a lot and it does help a lot, believe me.
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So I think this is going to be rather enjoyable.
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It's a bit different. So without further ado, let's do
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this. Hello everyone and welcome to
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the podcast where we visit exhibitions so that you have to
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so that you experience them vicariously through us.
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But today we have a complete novelty.
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We are very, very glad to welcome our first guest art
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advisor, Liberty New team. However, the format is not too
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far from the premise. Because we have visited
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exhibitions together. Haven't really, Bertie.
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Yes, we have and hello and thank you so much for having me on the
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podcast. That's a joy.
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It's lovely to have you. It's been a pleasure to visit
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Exhibitions with you and I'm sure it's going to be a pleasure
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to exchange with you on this topic.
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So we will talk about your work as an arts advisor and then we
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will discuss our most special experiences with Exhibitions in
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the past, the present and perhaps even the future.
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You know, some futurology, Who knows?
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So Liberty is a specialist in modern and Impressionist arts,
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with a particular focus on works on paper.
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She was a senior Director in the Impressionist and Modern
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Department at Christie's London, where she worked from 1997 to
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2018. For several years, Liberty
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organized the biannual Impressionist Art Private Sales
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exhibition in Hong Kong and gave several lectures on
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Impressionist art. In 2018, Liberty joined the
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contemporary art gallery Hazard Birth, where she oversaw the
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sales of Impressionist and Modern art, and in line with the
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gallery's particular strength in history, she focused on the 20th
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century avant-garde movements such as Dada and Surrealism,
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working particularly on Jean Arc, Pablo Picasso and Francis
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Picabia. So, Liberti, how on earth did
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you end up working with art? Which is to say, how did you
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become an art advisor, first for others and now with your own
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company? Have Nutty.
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Oh well, it's been a a long journey, I have to say.
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I started 30 years ago nearly then it's it's, it's been many
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years. I started when I was around 20
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years old and I was starting my career.
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I didn't really know what to do. I started to kind of work in the
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cinema industry and the TV industry, which I love very
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much. And very quickly I realized the
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cinema and the the TV is very much about visual but also
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stories and I'm much more into images which are not moving.
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And I realise I enjoy so much going to the museum and taking
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that in that I quit the the TV world and joined the art world.
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That's interesting because it was actually exhibitions that
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led you to decide moving towards the art world rather than the
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cinema and TV world. I think it was in a way because
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I was doing internship and I was studying law and you know, you
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are in a career mood and that's what I wanted to do.
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I was in France and I realized really by going to the Louvre in
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the evening, they, they just had started that in, in Paris.
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It was just the most relaxing, the most that where I could find
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myself and that was really resonating with me.
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And from that on, I just, I decided that that would be my
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past. And I remember I talked to my
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aunt one day and I, you know, when you're 2324, you don't know
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what to do in with your life. And she just said do what you
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love. And I thought that's it, easy.
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Do what you love and try to manage to get paid for it.
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That's the. That's the.
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Thing exactly. But actually the money follows.
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When you do what you love, the money follows.
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To be very honest with you, even in the art world and let alone
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you know, your general audiences in museums and and galleries, we
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wonder what art advisors do, What is it that you do and how
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do you make your money? So I am going to very bluntly
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ask you the question, what does an art advisor do?
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Whoa, OK, I didn't know that was so mysterious then.
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What I do, it's really helping people to navigate the art world
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as an art advisor. I am an art advisor and a
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broker. Then I also do sell arts.
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Let's maybe do it in two parts, because I think broker.
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Different. Well, there's also very
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mysterious, so let's start with art advising and then you know
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your activity as a broker, because both are very
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interesting, I think. OK, I'll try.
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But to be simple, the way I work is I use my knowledge and my
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experience and I have 30 years in the art world and that can be
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helpful to others to buy the right thing and nowhere to go.
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And I help clients. They can be private clients or
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they can be in the trade to find what they need.
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It's really about finding things and with my knowledge, for
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example, if, if it's someone who's new and they love going to
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the museum and they decide, oh, we also want to have some art on
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the walls, then the first step would be to define what art you
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want, what art you love. Also, I think the value is
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important because you, you can buy, you know, you can start at
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5010 thousand, but you can also buy in the millions and you have
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to just to define a budget in a way.
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But it's really about what you want to own and it's, it's a
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journey. Then you will start with
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visuals, maybe going to exhibitions or it's really a
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discussion and that will emerge. And then from that on it's about
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finding the right thing, going to the right place to people you
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can trust and buying something, which is what it say it is for
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the right price. Then it's kind of a balance and
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if you buy a work of art, if you start, there are some very
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important key points because art is expensive and now more and
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more you can also see it as investment.
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Then before you put the money in you apart from buying what you
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love which is number one, you also have to have a backup to
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make sure the price you pay is the right price in relation to
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the market for example. Then there are more technical
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things which are you need to check the provenance.
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If you buy something which is modern, there has been in Europe
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two big wars and you have to think of spooliation.
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You need to make sure that this years during the wars I covered
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that we know where things went because you don't want to have a
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problem the day you lend your artwork to a museum and they
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say, oh, it doesn't belong to you, but.
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Jewish families give it back. Exactly.
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Then it it doesn't happen. You know this it, it doesn't
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happen often, but this is something to be aware of.
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And if the provenance is not strong enough, if, if the
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elements are not there, you can't buy the work of art.
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You have to be very, very careful.
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Then you have to check something very basic that the work is by
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the person it says it is. If you buy a Joan Miho for
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example, you want to make sure it is a Joan Miho and not a
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copy. That's it.
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Sounds silly but it's important. Then more technical.
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You might want to know about the condition because that affects
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the price. Something not in good condition
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will be more difficult to resell.
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That will that will reduce the price in a way.
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Then you can buy it. But you just need to be aware of
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the condition. Some people only want to buy
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thing in perfect condition. Some people will be happy to buy
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something not in so good condition at a reduced price,
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but as long as you do it with awareness and that's kind of my
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role to make sure you know what you buy and you've checked all
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the boxes, the important boxes, then they are the last.
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If you buy something quite substantial, there are also some
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contracts you have to make sure you have the title of property.
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You know, it's, it's just a lot of little detail to to be
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careful of like when you buy a house or something expensive,
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you will do your homework and I'm there to do the homework.
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That's amazing. That's really, really
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enlightening. So the provenance, you know, if
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I think people who listen to us maybe more versed in
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contemporary art. So in contemporary art, it's
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much more rare to find the issue of provenance because usually
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the artwork goes from the studio of the artist to the gallery.
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So that's not so much an issue in contemporary art.
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But when you work in contemporary art, is there any
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change? Because I'm presuming that all
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those issues, of course, when you speak of the, the two world
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wars in, in Europe, they of course pertain to modern art.
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And even, you know, before that provenance is even more
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important. Um, and this is the good quality
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of the artwork you're selling, uh, or you're, you know, finding
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for your client. But when it comes to
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contemporary art, does do these kind of admin quality checks are
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are they the same? They are actually.
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It's great you're asking the question because there are two
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markets 1 called the primary market, which is the
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contemporary market. Primary means it comes from the
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the the studio of the artist goes to the gallery and straight
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to the first owner. Then it's just fresh to the
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market. It's never been anywhere and
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that's primary. Once someone has owned it and
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sell it to someone else, it can be after six months, after 10
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years, after 100 years, you, you start to go in the secondary
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market that the work has already an history and that's where you
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check the provenance, the title of a property and and so on and
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so forth. And there are really 2 markets
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In the primary market, of course, it's more
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straightforward. You buy from a gallery, an
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artist you like and then the work.
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I think as an advisor here, the first work is accessibility,
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which is in the very, very successful contemporary market
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at the moment. If an an artist is very much in
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demand, let's say there's an exhibition in a big gallery, you
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have 30 works, but there are 200 people who want the works.
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How do they choose? Then an advisor will help you
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jump the queue. It might take one exhibition, 2
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exhibition, but that's kind of the role to be there to keep in
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touch with the right person and make sure you have access that's
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ahead because that's a lot of time.
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That's knowing the right channel.
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Then that's what as an advisor, you do more in contemporary.
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The second thing, in contemporary, you've got a lot
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of new artists. How do you choose, how do you
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navigate that? Some people are more focusing me
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on this primary or what we call the emerging market, where they
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just know who's hot, who's good. They talk to curators like you
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who look at the artist they've been to the studio.
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Then it's a bit of a different work, but that's also very
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useful to be helped in the the the contemporary or primary
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market. So I haven't forgotten that
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you're also a broker, So what does that mean?
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Then brokering is when you put A&B together, you have someone
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who wants to sell a work of art and someone who wants to buy a
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work of art and you add the bridge in the middle.
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Then either you place the work or you try to find the work.
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But generally these for example, I can be with discussion with a
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client at the end they might just give me the work on
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consignment and my role is to then I would kind of take care
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of the work for six months until I've placed it in a collection
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or with someone. Then that's called brokering.
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It's really about the deal. Advisory is different.
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You just give your advice and you will be paid on the advice
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and that's a little bit different.
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But either way, you always know for who you work and that's very
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important from the the beginning.
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You know if you work for the seller or for the buyer and
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that's crystal clear and that reflects in who is going to pay
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you. Because that was going to be my
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next question. I think the most mysterious
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thing for people and even in the art world, sometimes we talk,
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you know, with smaller galleries or curators amongst ourselves
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and even with artists and we wonder, how do art advisors get
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paid? How does it work?
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You're kind of in the middle of the transaction.
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And so do galleries pay you? Do your clients, do you have a,
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a portfolio of clients and then they will pay you monthly for
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you to find words for them. How does that work?
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And be transparent as much as you can obviously, because
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they're secrets of the trade. But can you just enlighten us a
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little bit about? That I will try, but you might
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be a bit disappointed because there are as many solution as
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their advisors and clients. I think you really work with
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whatever is the need. If someone is totally new, the
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journey would be different and then the way I set the the fees
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would be kind of because you have to first do the journey of
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finding what you want and that takes time and that's education.
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Then then there are many different ways then that has to
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be discussed always beforehand. You don't kind of start
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discussing your fees in the middle of a deal that doesn't
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work. Then you know where you stand
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and you say this is my service, this is the way I do it.
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And it really depends what the client needs.
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If if it's someone new wants something, you know you have
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them. You find the things you do the
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full white glove service that may be on a retainer, which
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means they can pay you per year and then you do the work for
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them. You might also work for for I
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might work for someone who's a seasoned collectors and and he
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just want one thing. Find me this then that would be
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a fee on the work. If you are a broker, you, for
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example, if I take something on consignment, I will clearly
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write in the contract, what is my, my, my fee on the sale.
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Then this is very clear. But always from the beginning,
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because the worst is when you're in the middle of closing a
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transaction or an acquisition of a work and you start drawing
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numbers and trying to make room for yourself that that's not the
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way I work. And I think clarity from the
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beginning, who you work with, what is your work and your added
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value and how much you're going to be paid for that and then
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everyone's happy. Do you know I have to tell you,
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Liberty, how many times have people contacted me to do a
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talk, to do an interview, to write a text, to curate an
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exhibition without telling me how I'm going to get paid, how
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much I'm going to get paid, when I'm going to get paid?
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And I'm always the one to say, OK, that's interesting, but can
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we talk? Can we talk?
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Money, you know, and it kind of feels like in the art world and
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I, that leads me to my next question.
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Money is a bit of a dirty word. You don't really want to talk
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about it. I think we've inherited this
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thing of the saloon, you know, in the 18th and 19th century,
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where people would do arts as a hobby and professionals in the
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art world kind of have, especially independent ones like
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myself and you. And to a certain extent, we have
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to really battle for it in the contemporary art world.
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And I'm a bit jealous, I have to say, of what you're saying.
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And I think it's really interesting for our listeners
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who are independent workers as well, and also for the artists
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sometimes to really not be ashamed of talking about money.
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And I, I'm talking about this because how many artists have I
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told, you know, you need to be very clear with your galleries.
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You need to discuss percentages, You need to discuss payments,
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you need to discuss the system of payment.
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And I always have the answer of, Oh yeah.
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But you know, I'd never think about those things.
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Like how how do you not think of we're in the capitalist society.
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You have to think of your capital.
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You know, it's, it's incredible. So thank you.
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That's that's amazing. To add on that, I think yes,
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Jerry Daisy's kind of idea of art is beautiful.
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Art is for the heart. And that's why, you know, the
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conversation with the money doesn't always come at the
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forefront because you don't want to keep the poetry.
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That's one thing. So secondly, it's in, in Europe,
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the, the notion of service is not the same as in America.
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I think people don't really see the added value.
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They don't see what you bring to the table.
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And they would take your advice as a curator, you know you've,
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you've got many years of seeing so many things, you know so
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much, but they will just ask you for your opinion.
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Your opinion is valuable, but it will it'll be difficult for you
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to then charge and people are not used to that and they are
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not really wanting to do that. Then that's a problem.
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That's that's a difficult conversation for advisors, for
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curators, for artists. I can totally get it.
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I get in America, it's more, it would be easier to say, you
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know, I, I help you, I'll give you this service.
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The service system is, is better.
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I don't think in Europe people really pay, but then then it's
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normal. You feel like that it's not
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really easy to bring the, the money thing to the table.
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That's why I always think it's better to bring it right in
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front, right, right at the beginning and say, and also in
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the well, we help a lot and I do so many things for free.
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I also believe in being generous because if you're generous,
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things good in the world become to you.
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It can't be by the meter. Basically you just I, I give a
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lot and then you establish some, some good relationship, some
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trust, and then you can work together.
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And I'm sure we've curated it the same, because how long is it
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before a museum start to pay you, for example?
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Yes, Well, well, with curators, with especially independent
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curators, it's very simple. You are hired to do an
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exhibition and you do it. The problem is that you
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sometimes people reach out to you, you start working and you
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think, OK, I'll draw out, you know, a plan or an exhibition or
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a concept. And then suddenly you're 3456
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months in and you haven't discussed the fee yet.
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So at a certain point, you kind of go, oh, wait a minute, I'm
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not, I'm OK. We're having this discussion
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because one thing is to have a meeting with someone and discuss
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possibilities. And you're giving, like you say,
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free samples. Like I just had a conversation
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with a high profile curator who's in the museum.
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And we were talking about collections.
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And I said, well, you know, I find it really interesting to do
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this and this and this and within the collection as an
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exhibition. And I learned afterwards that
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they had taken this idea and, and, and taken it to fruition.
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And I'm very happy. I don't want that idea.
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I mean, ideas, you know, I was going to say something very
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rude, but I'm going to say something else.
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Ideas are like noses. Everyone, everyone has them.
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I was going to say another part of the body because the
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expression is very, very rude. So I'm so glad I stopped myself.
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Anyway, that's great. That's just part of
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conversations and I'm very happy.
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And my husband keeps telling me, oh, people steal ideas from you
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all the time. It's not stealing, it's just the
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way it works. As professionals, we discuss, we
00:23:50
talk and anything. Anyway, things are in the
00:23:54
zeitgeist, they're in the air. And if you don't do it, someone
00:23:57
else will do it. And that's perfect.
00:23:58
It's fine. But then when you're contacted
00:24:01
by an institution to do a talk, say for example, they give you
00:24:05
the contact of with the artist, you start working with the
00:24:07
artist and you're ready in the midst of the of working towards
00:24:12
the project, towards the talk. And no one has asked you or told
00:24:16
you anything about a fee. That's problematic.
00:24:19
It is, and it's very you're not at ease.
00:24:23
But we must learn, especially as women to put the question on the
00:24:28
table. And that's a learning curve and
00:24:31
that with a big, big smile. And we have value.
00:24:35
It's also thinking of your own worth because if you don't ask,
00:24:41
it's, it's like you don't value your advice.
00:24:44
And at one point you. Just not say.
00:24:46
I'm worth it. I'm worth it.
00:24:48
I'm. Bringing some Exactly.
00:24:50
I'm bringing something to the table.
00:24:52
And of course, you're very lucky, Joanna, because you've
00:24:54
got about 10 ideas a minute. Then if you lose 1 doesn't
00:24:59
matter because you know, your brain is so full of ideas and
00:25:03
fresh and you know, this is wonderful about you, then it's
00:25:07
great not to get the Grinch about losing 1 idea.
00:25:10
But it's also, I think all of us as women, I guess men too, but
00:25:14
especially I feel as women, we need to learn to ask.
00:25:18
Yes, absolutely. Now I'm very, I mean, I've come
00:25:20
to a point when I, when I'm invited to something, I reply
00:25:24
back saying I'm very interested. What would be the fee?
00:25:27
Or do you prefer to tell you my fee?
00:25:30
I'm, I have no issues, no qualms whatsoever, you know, and now
00:25:34
I'm kind of like preaching, you know, about it.
00:25:37
I'm talking to artists because with artists it's terrible,
00:25:40
artists who don't. Have.
00:25:43
It's even harder, you know, because they, like you say, oh,
00:25:46
it kind of destroys the poetry. It doesn't.
00:25:49
It makes you. And I think what you said is
00:25:51
absolutely crucial. It makes you be respected.
00:25:55
People respect you when you know your own value.
00:25:58
And another thing I wanted to highlight is that you're
00:26:01
absolutely right. There's a big difference between
00:26:05
the United States and Europe. There's a huge gap in the way
00:26:12
work is appreciated and how you put money, where you put you,
00:26:16
where you put value. That's the in the United States,
00:26:19
those two things go together even in the art world, whereas
00:26:23
here it's much more difficult. And I want to say here I, I
00:26:27
think the UK is kind of an exception.
00:26:29
I think the UK is has. Yeah, UK.
00:26:32
Is. Yes, has a foot in the United
00:26:34
States. It's it's kind of a similar
00:26:36
mentality. But in the rest of Europe, it's
00:26:39
still very difficult and people don't understand what it is to
00:26:42
work independently as an intermediary, you know, which is
00:26:45
what we do. So I'm very happy to do this
00:26:48
episode with you. But now I have a very difficult
00:26:50
question for you. Another one, another one which
00:26:55
is that? OK, So art advisors are
00:26:58
demonized, right? You know, you and I were in
00:27:02
Paris for Art Basel last week, and even last week someone told
00:27:07
me, you know, oh, the art world, the speculative market, da, da,
00:27:10
da. And the art advisors, I mean,
00:27:12
they're the ones you are messing up the system and they're guilty
00:27:17
of supporting speculative prices, da, da, da.
00:27:20
So what would you say about that?
00:27:22
I mean, I'm sure that like with everything, there are art
00:27:25
advisors and art advisors. So probably the way you work
00:27:29
might be different from another way of working for another art
00:27:33
advisor. But how, how do you respond to
00:27:36
that? Because I'm I'm sure you're
00:27:37
aware of it. I don't know.
00:27:40
As you say they are art advisor and art advisor and art advisor
00:27:44
and art advisor. They come in every shape and
00:27:47
forms. Anyone can call themselves art
00:27:50
advisor. After COVID there was a big
00:27:53
joke. It was the Gmail art advisor.
00:27:55
Everyone was advisor at Gmail then already like a Gmail.
00:28:01
That's kind of like, all right. Are you a real professional?
00:28:05
I, I think you, I work with a lot of people who are extremely
00:28:10
professional. They know what they're doing.
00:28:12
They're serious. You know, they really give a
00:28:15
service in the industry, which is becoming more and more of a
00:28:19
very serious industry. There are lots of very, very
00:28:22
good people. Of course, you have people who
00:28:26
make the news because it's a glamorous industry.
00:28:29
And now there's one big art advisor called Lisa Schiff who
00:28:34
just kind of fall down. Yeah, she's just fall down a big
00:28:38
pedestal and she she screwed up completely and now she's
00:28:45
pleading guilty. This does not help.
00:28:47
Not everyone is like her and also you have to realize that.
00:28:51
She do for our listeners who are probably not aware of who this
00:28:54
is. She, I'm not entirely sure
00:28:56
because I tried to stay away from these, these things, but
00:28:59
basically it was a bit of like a Ponzi scheme.
00:29:03
She had some, not really a Ponzi scheme, but she had some clients
00:29:08
and she used money from the clients to kind of enjoy a very
00:29:18
beautiful life. And she was owning money and at
00:29:21
one point it just didn't add up and the whole thing pull out.
00:29:25
And she was a really, really, really big art advisor.
00:29:29
She was huge and she was advising big LA superstars and
00:29:35
that's going to be in the news and that's not good.
00:29:39
But not everyone is like that. And I can also imagine that when
00:29:43
you are in this kind of circle superstars, when you have lots
00:29:47
of millions of dollars, the temptation is higher than then
00:29:53
in other places. And you know that's it can
00:29:57
happen, but there are lots of very correct other advisor.
00:30:01
You can work in transparency. I really believe in transparency
00:30:07
and everything is going to be more and more transparent
00:30:10
anyway. Then you have contracts you have
00:30:13
seen which are clear. You can show the invoices.
00:30:18
You know, I don't think it should be demonized as you say.
00:30:22
I think it's getting more and more, not regulated, but more
00:30:25
and more transparent, more and more serious people.
00:30:29
But you just have to be careful who you hire.
00:30:32
Then make your research work with people who are in the know,
00:30:37
who have a good curriculum, who have some experience.
00:30:43
I would do that like in any industry.
00:30:46
You know you would not take an insurance broker who is a Gmail
00:30:49
insurance broker. OK.
00:30:51
So I have a question from from another angle, which is that
00:30:55
we've had conversations in Paris, so we were visiting art
00:30:58
fairs. And I have a feeling when I talk
00:31:02
to you and to some of your colleagues that there are
00:31:06
certain kinds of works that you wouldn't be able to sell to your
00:31:11
clients because the artists are not known enough for maybe
00:31:15
they're, they're not in the right platforms.
00:31:18
For example, even if there are in an art fair, they are not the
00:31:21
right investments, let's say. So there's a fine line between
00:31:26
investment and pleasure in what you do.
00:31:29
So my question to you would be, do you wait for the artist to
00:31:33
get to a certain stage? Do you have clients who don't
00:31:36
care and just want a certain kind of work and you look for
00:31:40
that kind of work for them? Do you have frustration
00:31:44
sometimes in really loving an artist and thinking I will never
00:31:48
be able to place an artwork of this person because I know you
00:31:52
to be incredibly passionate about contemporary art.
00:31:55
Even though I introduced you as a kind of Impressionism
00:31:59
specialist, you are incredibly aware of contemporary art and
00:32:04
you have a fine detailed way of looking at things, and I've seen
00:32:09
you take a lot of pleasure in that.
00:32:11
So tell me a little bit about that.
00:32:14
Then it's funny, you always think of pleasure and then the
00:32:17
investment. They can go together.
00:32:21
The pleasure is there but and should always be there,
00:32:25
especially if you are someone who's going to buy art.
00:32:29
I really see myself as someone who's a safeguard and you can
00:32:34
buy anything you want. This is not a problem.
00:32:36
Any artist you know, you can go in every direction.
00:32:40
You just have to do your homework to make sure you are
00:32:42
buying the right thing. And, and I think the art of
00:32:46
buying, and that's where the role of the art advisor is, is
00:32:50
often not to buy. You don't want to buy
00:32:52
everything. You have to focus on quality.
00:32:55
Yeah, I'm always I'm there to make sure you are not buying.
00:33:00
Because people are not aware that there's so many people who
00:33:03
buy compulsively. I worked in galleries and I've
00:33:07
seen that. And these people, they don't
00:33:10
need someone to advise them. They know what they're doing and
00:33:13
but they might take someone to help them saying oh.
00:33:16
Alright. Take a step back.
00:33:18
Relax, take a step back and maybe have a more cohesive
00:33:21
collection and and maybe organise there it tastes a
00:33:25
little bit better. And not buy the same thing over
00:33:28
and over again, you know? Yeah, I mean.
00:33:30
But if you find your the gallery of your, then the the commercial
00:33:34
gallery of your dream, you love that program entirely.
00:33:38
This is your taste. You don't need someone else to
00:33:41
help you. You just find someone nice in
00:33:43
that gallery and you buy their program in depth and that could
00:33:46
be one way to do it. Why not after?
00:33:51
If you want to have more diversification or you don't
00:33:55
know where to start, that's maybe good to have a
00:33:58
conversation with Someone Like You.
00:34:01
John I was a curator or someone like me who kind of help just
00:34:05
thinking, what do we really want to buy?
00:34:09
Which direction? Being a bit careful because, you
00:34:12
know, you go to an art fair. It's like a candy store.
00:34:15
It's so tempting. Especially I'll Basel this year.
00:34:20
Oh yeah, exactly. It's just it's a joy.
00:34:23
And then if you are really into very contemporary artists, maybe
00:34:26
you work with someone who's really into the emerging artist.
00:34:31
I'm more kind of solid with the 20th century then, but I also do
00:34:36
contemporary, but they they, I would not be the person for
00:34:39
pure, pure, pure contemporary ethic.
00:34:42
And then there are some artists I absolutely adore and I work
00:34:46
with and I really want to place them then some.
00:34:51
I work with an estate, for example, and I absolutely adore
00:34:54
work and I'm going beyond my your role, my role exactly to to
00:35:02
talk to curator. We we've talked about that
00:35:04
artist, placing her in in museum, helping the estate and
00:35:08
I'm passionate about that artist and I own some of her work.
00:35:11
Yeah, I think you and I are very complimentary in the sense that
00:35:14
you bring a clear perspective from and within the market and
00:35:19
for the market. And I think you're right,
00:35:21
curators balance out things because let's not be naive.
00:35:25
Obviously the work I did with my Co curator Joanna Carrilli for
00:35:31
the artist Emma Blanc obviously was a touring exhibition within
00:35:35
Europe and Israel and of course it contributes to bring the
00:35:41
prices up, you know if she does all these exhibitions.
00:35:46
But we bring the artist because we believe in the quality of the
00:35:51
work. So in some ways we inject a
00:35:54
completely different perspective into the market, which is OK.
00:35:58
We are art specialists. We can explain by curating a
00:36:03
perfect show that this artist is incredible, is worth taking into
00:36:09
institutions. And when you create shows in
00:36:12
institutions as well, what happens, Especially when it's
00:36:14
individual shows. Sometimes the museum buys the
00:36:18
work, which has happened with Erma Blank, so obviously the
00:36:21
price goes up. She's more valued because she's
00:36:24
in more institutional collections, but that's not why
00:36:27
we do the work. We do the work because we
00:36:30
believe in the artists, so we can't.
00:36:32
Exactly. And that should be your pride.
00:36:34
I think your pride is not in her selling more or less.
00:36:38
And your pride is you believed in her, you love her work,
00:36:42
you're touched by her work and you really want to bring her to
00:36:46
the world. And how beautiful that at the
00:36:47
end she end up with five shows. She ends up with pieces in
00:36:52
museum and then now a great gallery who represents her.
00:36:56
You know, that should be your pride.
00:36:57
And actually, that's the, the essence of your work is to
00:37:01
reveal to the work, to the world, some artist.
00:37:05
And she's not an easy artist. She's quite minimalist.
00:37:08
And you really brought her to light and thank you for that.
00:37:12
It's because she's wonderful. Yeah, she's incredible.
00:37:15
So Speaking of exhibitions, we're going to move on to the
00:37:19
second part of our conversation, which is about exhibitions.
00:37:24
But in this context today, it's not about an exhibition that you
00:37:28
and I have visited like Emily and I do.
00:37:30
This is a different kind of question.
00:37:32
So the first one I have for you is what was the exhibition that
00:37:38
marked something for you that was foundational, even if it was
00:37:42
when you were five years old? Like what was the exhibition you
00:37:45
visited that really changed the game for you and even maybe
00:37:51
convinced you to work in the art world?
00:37:57
For me, that the, the exhibition, which was the most
00:38:00
important in, in a way that it really brought me so much
00:38:05
clarity and I really saw how an exhibition can transform your
00:38:11
view of an artist and your understanding.
00:38:14
Was in New York in 1996 when I went to MoMA on my own, because
00:38:20
that's always where I have the, the biggest kind of revelation
00:38:24
when I'm on my own. Even though I love going to
00:38:27
exhibition with you, I always think when you go and see an
00:38:31
exhibition, I, I go as a, as my, my old, 15 years old and very
00:38:37
fresh mind. And I'm like, bring it on, show
00:38:41
me, talk to me. The doors are opening.
00:38:45
And then you really have to open your mind and focus and, and
00:38:48
start the dialogue with the artist.
00:38:50
And I was in Mama in in New York and I went to see a very big
00:38:55
show called Picasso and Portraiture, which was about
00:38:59
representation of the different woman in his life and the
00:39:04
transformation in his work. And I don't know why, but the
00:39:07
way was set up in the MoMA, which is very big museum with
00:39:12
big rooms, was one room per woman in Picasso's life.
00:39:17
And Picasso had different partners in his life with always
00:39:22
very different stories and they were well told.
00:39:25
And the women are very different and they each of them, when he
00:39:30
loves them, they become part of his herb and his herb.
00:39:37
It's very funny how they are the herb and the herb is what the
00:39:41
artist has to say and it all goes together.
00:39:44
Then it's not about the woman herself, and it's not about just
00:39:48
the herb. It's she brings.
00:39:50
Each woman brings something new in his discourse.
00:39:54
And it was so clear the decades, you know, there's Olga, the
00:39:58
wife, she's a a Russian dancer. He meets her and he starts to be
00:40:04
successful and he's becoming a bit of a bourgeois.
00:40:08
He's 40 years old. He has his first child and it's
00:40:11
it's the end of the First World War.
00:40:14
And his line is very classical. There's the whole kind of.
00:40:20
In, in Europe, there's a whole movement about return to order
00:40:24
and it's everything is classic. The drawings are classic, the
00:40:28
representation is classic. They, they look at Ang and he's
00:40:33
becoming quite bourgeois and this is a very big phase,
00:40:36
beautiful phase in his in his earth.
00:40:40
Then that was one room. And then you move to the, the
00:40:45
suddenly, you know, after being such a bourgeois, gets a little
00:40:48
bit bored, becomes quite difficult.
00:40:51
I think she's bipolar and and it's a bit of a hell in his
00:40:54
couple. And he meets this young woman.
00:40:57
She's 17 years old. She's blonde, she's very sporty.
00:41:00
She's called Maritares. And a big love affair will start
00:41:05
and is painting completely transformed, very colourful,
00:41:08
full of love. Then in that that room, you can
00:41:12
see all the, the, the, the pastely colours, very bright
00:41:15
colours, the love, the Fern, the, the, the hues and the sex.
00:41:20
It's everywhere. It's like completely
00:41:22
overwhelming. And that's Mahita's phase.
00:41:25
And with the. 17 year olds. Ah, old Picasso.
00:41:28
Yeah. I know, I know.
00:41:29
That's why he's been a bit in the gutter, but he's coming back
00:41:32
now. It it's it's it's.
00:41:34
I'm happy to leave him in the gutter, but I can see that
00:41:37
you're very passionate about him, so no you.
00:41:39
Have to look at the you have to look at the art, not at the
00:41:42
life, but that's another conversation.
00:41:44
And and then you move to it meets Dohama after that
00:41:48
relationship and do Hama. She's this very strong brunette
00:41:55
surrealist artist, the big character, and she will become
00:42:00
Lafam Kipler, the crying woman, because Spain is going through a
00:42:04
terrible, terrible civil war. And this is very painful for
00:42:10
Picasso, the the Spaniard. And that kind of reflects
00:42:13
through the woman. And that exhibition really
00:42:16
showed how Picasso transformed with what was going on outside
00:42:23
in the world through the woman he was loving and choosing as
00:42:27
sitters. And that was such a revelation.
00:42:31
And actually, it, it's been my anchor for reading Picasso of,
00:42:39
you know, each time you show me a Picasso, I can immediately
00:42:42
know where that fits because I have this exhibition who has
00:42:45
structured my mind and my understanding of his very long
00:42:49
career and very, very fructose of I can always relate to that,
00:42:57
that that exhibition and to have such a revelation, you know, I,
00:43:02
I would be always thankful to the curators who've put that
00:43:04
together. It was incredible.
00:43:06
But what would be your big exhibition, Joanna?
00:43:09
What? What did change your your life?
00:43:13
I've been thinking about that and I have to say I wasn't aware
00:43:17
of curating weirdly when I was a child.
00:43:20
And I think it's difficult to understand curating.
00:43:25
And that's why, you know, in in some ways it's one of the
00:43:29
reasons why I decided to set up the podcast, because people are
00:43:31
not always aware of the fact that we really think
00:43:33
exhibitions. And I love your example because
00:43:36
feminism aside, that's such a detailed exhibition that we
00:43:40
don't have very often because people are presented as like
00:43:43
these geniuses coming from a sort of pure cloud where no,
00:43:48
you're touched by the moment you're going through in history,
00:43:52
you're going to touch by politics, Even if you're a very
00:43:55
minimalist, which is what I learnt with Emma Blanc, painter
00:43:59
or artist, there is change across time in your work.
00:44:03
And I think that's really interesting.
00:44:05
And it is the job of the of curating to do that and to, and
00:44:08
it's not done precisely very often.
00:44:12
But of course, you know, exhibitions per SE.
00:44:16
If I go way back, I don't have a specific exhibition, but I have
00:44:21
an experience in a space. When I was growing up in Lisbon,
00:44:25
my mum would take me to Gurbanken Foundation.
00:44:29
And she would always. You, you know the space.
00:44:32
It's incredible. And for those who don't know,
00:44:35
Portugal went through a very long dictatorship, which most
00:44:39
people know, but it had a real impact on art.
00:44:43
So there was no art anywhere. Art museums only showed very
00:44:47
official art, which is was not that bad actually when, but that
00:44:51
would be a whole other conversation.
00:44:54
But Gobenkin Foundation was founded by Mr. Gobenkin, which
00:44:58
who's called the 1% because he put 1%, he sold his fuel
00:45:06
business in return for having always having 1% of the income
00:45:11
from the company. And so with that, he just built
00:45:14
a huge collection and he's, he, he set himself up in Portugal.
00:45:18
For some reason he fell in love with the with the country was
00:45:21
Armenian and he lived in Paris for a long time.
00:45:24
And then he moved to Portugal. And that was the only place
00:45:27
during the dictatorship that you had contemporary art or you had
00:45:31
modern art and that artists could tap into in, in terms of
00:45:35
grants to go study elsewhere and to move away from the country
00:45:39
which was under such a horrible dictatorship.
00:45:42
So Gobenkin was really important in Portugal and it keeps on
00:45:46
having an amazing activity. They have incredible exhibitions
00:45:50
and they have the permanent collection and I remember my mum
00:45:53
taking me there and my, my poor mum, I don't know how she, I
00:45:58
don't know how she put up with me.
00:46:00
I remember being very, very probably under 10 years old and
00:46:03
explaining the abstract works. I love the abstraction and the
00:46:06
colours and just explaining the paintings to my mum.
00:46:12
I don't know. She was very patient or she was
00:46:14
probably laughing her, you know, her socks off.
00:46:16
But I'm sure she was very happy because often children, they
00:46:20
just just, they can't, they can't care less.
00:46:23
In an exhibition, very difficult for them to focus.
00:46:25
And if you have a child who's looking at something, this is
00:46:28
bless. Yeah, she loved it.
00:46:30
So I think she probably was very happy to also, you know, get
00:46:33
some time with the with the artworks.
00:46:35
And there's an artist in in Portugal called Rosetti Mirage.
00:46:41
And he illustrated children's books, but he was also in
00:46:44
Gulbankian and he has these very still easy, very schematic.
00:46:50
It was that time, it was the end of the 70s, beginning of the
00:46:53
80s, where you had a lot of abstraction and a lot of
00:46:56
colours, so inherited from modernism in children's books
00:47:01
and in education. And so we were still in that
00:47:04
blissful time where those things were important.
00:47:07
And I remember seeing him in my books and then seeing him in the
00:47:11
museum. It was such an incredible thing.
00:47:13
And it spoke so much to me. And so, yeah, OK that.
00:47:17
That must be that must be your challenge for 2025.
00:47:21
You must meet him. Come on, this is I, I take you
00:47:25
on that. We'll check on the on the
00:47:27
podcast at the end of 2025. You must meet him.
00:47:31
That's it. That's it.
00:47:32
Yeah, Challenge. Close the circle.
00:47:34
Yes, Challenge. That's a challenge.
00:47:35
You know, everyone is listening. You've got the challenge.
00:47:41
So I have another question for you now, which is what is the
00:47:44
exhibition that gives you the most FOMO?
00:47:47
You know, the exhibition where you think, I wish I could have
00:47:51
been there, you know, either because you weren't born yet or
00:47:54
because you were somewhere else and you've heard of this show.
00:47:58
What is the exhibition that gives you that feeling?
00:48:02
OK. For FOMO, I think coming back to
00:48:05
your podcast, you I realised that I live in a big town,
00:48:13
London, where there are lots of fantastic exhibition and like
00:48:17
you when I guess that's why you started that, that podcast, I, I
00:48:22
can miss them so easily, which makes me so angry with myself.
00:48:27
Then now I've set a time every week to go and see exhibition,
00:48:32
not to miss them. And you travel the world and you
00:48:35
miss what's on your doorstep. Then that's FOMO #1 which I'm
00:48:39
working on it, I'm curing it. I'm, I'm kind of on the mend.
00:48:45
And I think your podcast is also a big help to know what's going
00:48:50
on, what not to be missed in my in our own town.
00:48:53
Then that's first foremost. And then for, you know, as a
00:48:57
specialist in impressionist and modern art, the the one
00:49:01
exhibition that was always the dream and I think is the dream
00:49:05
of anyone in my field is the first Impression Impressionist
00:49:11
exhibition, which took place in 1874 in Paris in a small
00:49:21
photographer studio. The the Nada studio.
00:49:27
Exactly. And all the, the, the impression
00:49:30
is they got so fed up with the studio, not with the Salon, not
00:49:34
to get in. They set up their own exhibition
00:49:39
small room and they were like, OK, let's roll on.
00:49:42
And that's kind of where it all started.
00:49:45
And then if there was one exhibition where it can be a
00:49:49
little teeny mosquitoes and go in and watch, it would be that.
00:49:56
I think that's kind of where it all started.
00:49:59
It's also what it is about avant-garde and, you know,
00:50:04
breaking from the mould. It's just fantastic.
00:50:07
And thanks God, last year the music Dorsey in celebration of
00:50:12
the must be 100 years of 150 years, sorry of the
00:50:17
Impressionist movement. They put together a fantastic
00:50:21
exhibition which recreated the Nada studio and they found most
00:50:26
of the works. Yeah.
00:50:27
You're giving me FOMO. That's it.
00:50:29
That's a big. FOMO.
00:50:30
Right now. That's a big formal then.
00:50:34
And actually he was, according to one of your colleague, a
00:50:38
curator at the Orsay. He was paired there and the the
00:50:43
length of the exhibition, the most successful exhibition they
00:50:49
ever had in terms of numbers, which is incredible because it
00:50:53
was when I went in, I was so happy.
00:50:56
And I you see the Nada studio and exactly with the all the
00:51:00
painting and they kind of recreated the place and this
00:51:03
also show a lot of paintings from the side of them.
00:51:06
You can see what was taste of the time and what the
00:51:11
impressionist we're trying to create, which is a complete
00:51:14
different feel in terms of painting and, and what they
00:51:18
wanted to say. And that was a very interesting
00:51:22
way to really show what was happening at the time in Paris.
00:51:25
And I thought, oh, that's quite a niche exhibition, but actually
00:51:29
it's a really big blockbuster. And now it's your second chance.
00:51:33
Don't know if you're going to take that, but it's in
00:51:36
Washington. It's just opened in Washington
00:51:38
two weeks ago. You walk in and you are, you are
00:51:41
there. It's 1874.
00:51:42
It's it's incredible. It's so interesting that you're
00:51:45
talking about this, the the need for the impressionist, which
00:51:48
which is arguably and from what you say, the most famous and
00:51:54
appreciated movement since the mid 19th century.
00:51:59
For the general public. It's interesting to know that
00:52:02
they had no place to show their work.
00:52:04
They were not appreciated. And we forget.
00:52:06
We forget that and. No, not many people went.
00:52:09
And the people who went there, they were laughing there.
00:52:11
They hated it. They they, no, they, they
00:52:14
actually, they didn't hated it. I think some did, but a lot of
00:52:17
people were just making fun and a lot of critics, they were just
00:52:21
like having a complete laugh. People were going there to have
00:52:25
a laugh that way. It was.
00:52:27
But what's interesting in that exhibition is you see that the
00:52:30
works which are a bit now out of fashion from the real salon,
00:52:35
the, the official salon was also very, very good.
00:52:39
And it was, it was this fantastic big painting, which
00:52:42
are now kind of put a bit of a on on the side in museums.
00:52:46
And, and it's a shame because there are some fantastic
00:52:49
paintings. And by the way, I, I always
00:52:52
think when I go to big art fairs, the whole world is
00:52:56
rushing there and everyone is well dressed and it's like it's
00:53:01
a big social events and, and it's all about painting.
00:53:04
And for me, I'm sure that what we are living now, it's more or
00:53:09
less what's what's happening at the salon, you know, this kind
00:53:11
of rush. And, and that's why I always
00:53:14
think the art there are the salon of the time.
00:53:17
And you know, it was a moment where Europe was wealthy.
00:53:20
Like, you know, we are in a wealthy moment also and it's
00:53:23
it's the same. Oh my gosh, it's, I'm so happy
00:53:27
because no one can see me, but I just gasped and kind of like put
00:53:30
my hand to my mouth because I've been, I was saying this in our,
00:53:34
in Paris last week. I was saying this is a pompier.
00:53:37
So for those who don't know, a pompier is a term that
00:53:42
characterises a very kind of in your face, unsubtle,
00:53:47
unsophisticated type of work. That was very like new
00:53:53
neoclassicism that was very famous at the end of the 19th
00:53:58
century, right, Liberty? I'm not saying.
00:54:01
Anything. Yeah, it's.
00:54:02
It's end of the century. Yeah, yeah.
00:54:04
But it's really from, I don't know when it starts, but it's
00:54:07
really all the 19th century. Exactly.
00:54:10
And then it goes all the way and then it morphs into the
00:54:14
Exposition Universal way. They were also integrating
00:54:18
furniture and discoveries and architecture and, and, and there
00:54:23
there were these big places where people were coming in
00:54:25
mass. That that's really interesting
00:54:27
because I do share what you're saying.
00:54:30
I mean, there's a lot of what we see even in museums nowadays
00:54:33
that will not stand the test of time.
00:54:35
But it's also important that it is there because one of the
00:54:39
things I usually say in the podcast is that sometimes you
00:54:43
look, for example, Jose Bonar is a very good example of a female
00:54:47
artist. He was, you know, she painted
00:54:51
animals. She was a a notorious lesbian of
00:54:54
the 19th century. And she painted what she could
00:54:59
paint. And then she expressed herself
00:55:01
through those animals that she depicted.
00:55:03
And I remember being in, when I lived in Paris, there was kind
00:55:06
of a turning point where she went from being considered
00:55:09
kitsch to being considered someone who was saying something
00:55:13
through a very strong symbolism with animals and a very
00:55:17
expressive kind of painting. And she was finally appreciated.
00:55:20
So it's always good to have things there.
00:55:22
You know, I'm not against buying and, and investing and, and
00:55:25
taking a risk because sometimes things make sense in a certain
00:55:29
time and then they don't in another and then they make sense
00:55:32
again. So you know.
00:55:34
It's so no, but it's also what is contemporary art.
00:55:38
You know, there is a lot being created.
00:55:41
You need to show it and things will stand.
00:55:44
The will stand in time, some will not, some will disappear
00:55:49
and reappear. And, but this is kind of the,
00:55:53
the, the roots of creation. That's, that's, that's how
00:55:56
things are made and, and everyone is expressing
00:56:00
themselves and you have different mediums and all that.
00:56:02
And that's also how a curator or an advisor can help sift through
00:56:08
that with not much, there is not much gap.
00:56:14
And, and it's, it's difficult to sift through that because we are
00:56:17
in our time. But that's the idea also is to
00:56:20
help sing in this sea of of artists and works and, and, and
00:56:26
trends and, and, and curators are are there to, to explain
00:56:31
and, and, and see. And I think the the other
00:56:34
advisor who also speak to curators and understand and
00:56:38
study a bit more, that's how you can help.
00:56:40
Well done, Liberty for bringing us back to the issue at hand
00:56:45
today. I have one final question for
00:56:48
you and thank you so much for putting up with me for an hour
00:56:53
now. So what would be the exhibition
00:56:58
you would like to see in the future?
00:57:00
What do you want people to set up in a museum?
00:57:05
What kind of exhibitions would you like to see?
00:57:07
What artists maybe you'd like to have a bigger focus on in the
00:57:11
future? Oh, I'm a fan of monographic
00:57:18
exhibition when you focus on one artist because that's really
00:57:23
what helps to understand who's the artist and get into the
00:57:27
earth and earth is complex is the good days, the bad days.
00:57:31
And it's often span of, you know, 30-40, fifty years.
00:57:36
And I think for me, my favorite exhibition are when they are
00:57:41
monographic and they really take a nerve on an artist and they
00:57:44
allow you to understand and make a judgement or get into the
00:57:52
work. Then whoever it is, I think it's
00:57:56
very important to revisit often the big artists and the museum
00:58:01
are doing that in different continents.
00:58:05
All of them you realize maybe a fair knowledge, you know, we
00:58:10
don't speak much about him and maybe, you know, you haven't
00:58:13
been wonderful. He has a complicated and, and
00:58:17
there are lots of problems, but you know, maybe him and, and I
00:58:21
think museum are quite good every 20-30 years to bring back
00:58:27
an artist which, you know, has been a little bit forgotten.
00:58:30
And nowadays a beacon faces around Van Gogh and Monet.
00:58:37
But these exhibitions are going to be more and more difficult
00:58:41
because the cost of moving these works around and the insurance
00:58:46
costs are enormous. And I think for the moment, I'm
00:58:49
really enjoying staying at the National Gallery.
00:58:51
There is a in London, there is a great wrong go exhibition, which
00:58:55
I don't think you can repeat that it, it's 61 works by him.
00:59:00
They've made a huge effort. It, it's, it's, I don't know how
00:59:03
they can borrow so much, I guess because they are the National
00:59:07
Gallery of London. But and the cost of it, it's we
00:59:12
are so spoiled to have that in, in, in, in the city.
00:59:14
Yeah, yeah, that's a great answer because even for reasons
00:59:19
of sustainability, you know, Judy Chicago, when she did the
00:59:22
show at the Serpentine, she didn't bring all her big works.
00:59:26
Ah, interesting. That's another big problem.
00:59:28
That's another big problem because I was speaking to a
00:59:32
collector who grew up in South America and she was saying,
00:59:37
well, you're all talking about sustainability, but in my
00:59:39
country, the only way to see the old masters is if they travel
00:59:44
there. And I think, well, yes, but at
00:59:47
the same time, you know, you probably have local big masters
00:59:51
and you know, and you do a big crip once in a lifetime and you
00:59:54
see all the masters. I mean, I don't know, I don't
00:59:56
have any answers that don't sound cruel.
00:59:57
But it is true that those exhibitions might be very
01:00:00
difficult also For these reasons.
01:00:03
And there's, there's a big, we have to rethink a lot what we
01:00:06
do. Maybe we extend the exhibitions
01:00:08
and leave them. I mean, the Van Gogh exhibition,
01:00:10
I don't know, could stay for three years over there and they
01:00:13
could find other ways of making people.
01:00:16
That's a good way. That's a good.
01:00:18
I'm sure there are some problems because you can't borrow things
01:00:21
forever, but I think longer. Less is more.
01:00:25
Just do better, but longer. Things can still circulate.
01:00:29
There's other ways of circulating.
01:00:30
It's just a question of preparing things in advance.
01:00:34
The question is the conservation.
01:00:36
The question is the, you know, the preparing things in advance.
01:00:39
We don't always in the art world prepare things.
01:00:41
I mean, when you're an independent curator and you work
01:00:44
in small galleries, you know that museums have their
01:00:46
programs, you know, done for 5-10 years and you think that's
01:00:50
a long time, but it's not, It's not such a long time when you
01:00:53
think about it. So it's a question of timing,
01:00:56
but you've brought the attention to something that's incredible.
01:01:00
First of all, the reason why it's so nice to visit
01:01:02
exhibitions with you. And I'm with you, I love to go
01:01:04
on my own, but it's so nice to visit them with you because
01:01:07
sometimes you're looking at a contemporary, very contemporary,
01:01:10
you know, someone who's in their Ortiz producing something and
01:01:14
you think, oh, this makes me think of K bot.
01:01:18
And I'm like, oh, OK, that's not where my mind would go.
01:01:22
So it's always fascinating. And you're also bringing the
01:01:24
attention to solo exhibitions, which will be our next episode.
01:01:29
We will do a next episode on Mike Kelly.
01:01:31
So having said this, thank you so much, Di birthday.
01:01:35
This was such a pleasure. I think we could go on for an
01:01:38
hour more, but we don't want to torture our listeners.
01:01:41
I think now is the right balance and been really, really
01:01:45
insightful and exciting talking to you.
01:01:49
And I'm pretty sure that our listeners now will be much more
01:01:51
enlightened in regards to all these agents of the art world
01:01:56
between the studio of the artist and the collection.
01:01:59
You know, all of us work in there and we all do something
01:02:02
useful. And I I think it's important to
01:02:04
put the message out there. So thank you so much.
01:02:07
Thank you Joanna, it's been a lot of fun to do the post cast
01:02:10
with you and yeah, I hope you know some answer will be but I
01:02:15
have been brought to light and let's carry on singing,
01:02:18
exhibition and great art. Let's do that.
01:02:21
OK, Well, thank you so much. Bye everyone.
01:02:23
Thank you for listening and have a great, great life.