Joana P. R. Neves is an art curator but also an art fair artistic director. So, she invited art advisor Liberté Nuti to ask her: what does an art advisor do? And why is her job somewhat maligned? How does one decide to work in the modern art sector? But before anything else, what drew her to art in the first place?
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This is Exhibitionistas’ first guest episode and Joana’s first interview for the podcast. Why? Because it came to our awareness how little the general public knows about art jobs, but also how little, amongst peers, we even discuss them.
It’s always worth asking questions.
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Expect: a dive into Liberté’s past and her discovery of art; art history musings; art theory or art language / jobs dissected or used in accessible ways; art wonderment in buckets; international art; thoughts on exhibitions; and art etiquette challenges…
To know more about Liberté Nuti: @libertenuti
Music: Sarturn.
Did the episode stir Art Wonderment memories? Share them via text or voice message.
Created & Hosted by Dr. Joana P. R. Neves, art curator and writer with over 20 years of experience in the contemporary art field. Artistic director of Drawing Now Paris since 2018, she has worked across the industry, from the art market to education. She co-launched the art residency and project space Worlding in 2020. Exhibitionistas’ first year offered exhibition discussions with guest co-host Emily Harding; organically, it grew into a more experimental show exploring art topics, stories and interviews complemented by Joana’s publication Art Thinkosaurus on Substack. She champions ‘Art Wonderment’s’ embrace of complexity against the lure of ready-made opinions. A polyglot, she grew up in Lisbon, studied and lived in Paris, to finally settle in London with her artist husband, four children and two cats.
Find us:
On Instagram – @exhibitionistas_podcast
On Substack (NEWSLETTER: sign up!): Art Thinkosaurus > Exhibitionistas Files
Online: www.exhibitionistaspodcast.com
Do you want to be a guest on Art Etiquette? Reach out: joana@exhibitionistaspodcast.com
Copyright: Joana P. R. Neves, 2024.
00:00:09
Hello everyone, welcome to the podcast if you're new here.
00:00:13
This is not our typical episode because we have a guest for the
00:00:17
first time. Our usual method is simply to
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discuss my Co host and I solo exhibitions we visit separately.
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Emily, my Co host, is on sick leave and could not make it to
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the podcast. So we decided to try something
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we have been pondering, which is to invite guests who can bring a
00:00:34
different perspective to exhibitions but also the art
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world. In my other life as a curator, I
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do interviews with artists and why not bring the skill set to
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this podcast? So there are two things that led
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me to invite today's guest. First of all, she's a blast, and
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secondly, she can put to rest all the questions you may have
00:00:55
about what it is that art advisors do and how they make
00:00:59
their money. Yes, that dirty word that we
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don't like to discuss in Europe, But in fact, many people ask
00:01:06
themselves exactly that, even artists and curators.
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And our first guest, Liberte Nuti, is happy to clarify all of
00:01:16
this for you. From my perspective, our guest
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is part of a group that I belong to as well, which is all the
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intermediaries between the artist, the art and the private
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or public collection, the museum or the home.
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There are so many agents like myself, a curator, writer and
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podcaster, who contribute to make the art world what it is.
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And talking to us can help understand a lot and break
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certain myths as well. So we will not shy away from the
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fact that much more than curators, art advisors are
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somewhat demonised. Our guest is great at explaining
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the art market and its intricacies quite bluntly.
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Then we move on to the hizz on that of this podcast.
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Fear not, we do mention exhibitions.
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I asked Lee Bertie about her dream exhibitions from the
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distant and recent past as well as her ideal exhibition.
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Let me also remind you to join our Patreon page which is on the
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shows notes and perhaps even support us financially for
00:02:21
justice, $1.50 a month. So this is my job done.
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Speaking of The Dirty words, Speaking of money, it will help,
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$1.50 is not a lot and it does help a lot, believe me.
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So I think this is going to be rather enjoyable.
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It's a bit different. So without further ado, let's do
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this. Hello everyone and welcome to
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the podcast where we visit exhibitions so that you have to
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so that you experience them vicariously through us.
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But today we have a complete novelty.
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We are very, very glad to welcome our first guest art
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advisor, Liberty New team. However, the format is not too
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far from the premise. Because we have visited
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exhibitions together. Haven't really, Bertie.
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Yes, we have and hello and thank you so much for having me on the
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podcast. That's a joy.
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It's lovely to have you. It's been a pleasure to visit
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Exhibitions with you and I'm sure it's going to be a pleasure
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to exchange with you on this topic.
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So we will talk about your work as an arts advisor and then we
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will discuss our most special experiences with Exhibitions in
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the past, the present and perhaps even the future.
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You know, some futurology, Who knows?
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So Liberty is a specialist in modern and Impressionist arts,
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with a particular focus on works on paper.
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She was a senior Director in the Impressionist and Modern
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Department at Christie's London, where she worked from 1997 to
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2018. For several years, Liberty
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organized the biannual Impressionist Art Private Sales
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exhibition in Hong Kong and gave several lectures on
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Impressionist art. In 2018, Liberty joined the
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contemporary art gallery Hazard Birth, where she oversaw the
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sales of Impressionist and Modern art, and in line with the
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gallery's particular strength in history, she focused on the 20th
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century avant-garde movements such as Dada and Surrealism,
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working particularly on Jean Arc, Pablo Picasso and Francis
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Picabia. So, Liberti, how on earth did
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you end up working with art? Which is to say, how did you
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become an art advisor, first for others and now with your own
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company? Have Nutty.
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Oh well, it's been a a long journey, I have to say.
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I started 30 years ago nearly then it's it's, it's been many
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years. I started when I was around 20
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years old and I was starting my career.
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I didn't really know what to do. I started to kind of work in the
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cinema industry and the TV industry, which I love very
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much. And very quickly I realized the
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cinema and the the TV is very much about visual but also
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stories and I'm much more into images which are not moving.
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And I realise I enjoy so much going to the museum and taking
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that in that I quit the the TV world and joined the art world.
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That's interesting because it was actually exhibitions that
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led you to decide moving towards the art world rather than the
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cinema and TV world. I think it was in a way because
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I was doing internship and I was studying law and you know, you
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are in a career mood and that's what I wanted to do.
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I was in France and I realized really by going to the Louvre in
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the evening, they, they just had started that in, in Paris.
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It was just the most relaxing, the most that where I could find
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myself and that was really resonating with me.
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And from that on, I just, I decided that that would be my
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past. And I remember I talked to my
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aunt one day and I, you know, when you're 2324, you don't know
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what to do in with your life. And she just said do what you
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love. And I thought that's it, easy.
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Do what you love and try to manage to get paid for it.
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That's the. That's the.
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Thing exactly. But actually the money follows.
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When you do what you love, the money follows.
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To be very honest with you, even in the art world and let alone
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you know, your general audiences in museums and and galleries, we
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wonder what art advisors do, What is it that you do and how
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do you make your money? So I am going to very bluntly
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ask you the question, what does an art advisor do?
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Whoa, OK, I didn't know that was so mysterious then.
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What I do, it's really helping people to navigate the art world
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as an art advisor. I am an art advisor and a
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broker. Then I also do sell arts.
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Let's maybe do it in two parts, because I think broker.
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Different. Well, there's also very
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mysterious, so let's start with art advising and then you know
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your activity as a broker, because both are very
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interesting, I think. OK, I'll try.
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But to be simple, the way I work is I use my knowledge and my
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experience and I have 30 years in the art world and that can be
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helpful to others to buy the right thing and nowhere to go.
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And I help clients. They can be private clients or
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they can be in the trade to find what they need.
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It's really about finding things and with my knowledge, for
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example, if, if it's someone who's new and they love going to
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the museum and they decide, oh, we also want to have some art on
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the walls, then the first step would be to define what art you
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want, what art you love. Also, I think the value is
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important because you, you can buy, you know, you can start at
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5010 thousand, but you can also buy in the millions and you have
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to just to define a budget in a way.
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But it's really about what you want to own and it's, it's a
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journey. Then you will start with
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visuals, maybe going to exhibitions or it's really a
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discussion and that will emerge. And then from that on it's about
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finding the right thing, going to the right place to people you
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can trust and buying something, which is what it say it is for
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the right price. Then it's kind of a balance and
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if you buy a work of art, if you start, there are some very
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important key points because art is expensive and now more and
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more you can also see it as investment.
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Then before you put the money in you apart from buying what you
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love which is number one, you also have to have a backup to
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make sure the price you pay is the right price in relation to
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the market for example. Then there are more technical
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things which are you need to check the provenance.
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If you buy something which is modern, there has been in Europe
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two big wars and you have to think of spooliation.
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You need to make sure that this years during the wars I covered
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that we know where things went because you don't want to have a
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problem the day you lend your artwork to a museum and they
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say, oh, it doesn't belong to you, but.
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Jewish families give it back. Exactly.
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Then it it doesn't happen. You know this it, it doesn't
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happen often, but this is something to be aware of.
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And if the provenance is not strong enough, if, if the
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elements are not there, you can't buy the work of art.
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You have to be very, very careful.
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Then you have to check something very basic that the work is by
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the person it says it is. If you buy a Joan Miho for
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example, you want to make sure it is a Joan Miho and not a
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copy. That's it.
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Sounds silly but it's important. Then more technical.
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You might want to know about the condition because that affects
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the price. Something not in good condition
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will be more difficult to resell.
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That will that will reduce the price in a way.
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Then you can buy it. But you just need to be aware of
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the condition. Some people only want to buy
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thing in perfect condition. Some people will be happy to buy
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something not in so good condition at a reduced price,
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but as long as you do it with awareness and that's kind of my
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role to make sure you know what you buy and you've checked all
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the boxes, the important boxes, then they are the last.
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If you buy something quite substantial, there are also some
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contracts you have to make sure you have the title of property.
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You know, it's, it's just a lot of little detail to to be
00:11:32
careful of like when you buy a house or something expensive,
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you will do your homework and I'm there to do the homework.
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That's amazing. That's really, really
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enlightening. So the provenance, you know, if
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I think people who listen to us maybe more versed in
00:11:48
contemporary art. So in contemporary art, it's
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much more rare to find the issue of provenance because usually
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the artwork goes from the studio of the artist to the gallery.
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So that's not so much an issue in contemporary art.
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But when you work in contemporary art, is there any
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change? Because I'm presuming that all
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those issues, of course, when you speak of the, the two world
00:12:07
wars in, in Europe, they of course pertain to modern art.
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And even, you know, before that provenance is even more
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important. Um, and this is the good quality
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of the artwork you're selling, uh, or you're, you know, finding
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for your client. But when it comes to
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contemporary art, does do these kind of admin quality checks are
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are they the same? They are actually.
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It's great you're asking the question because there are two
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markets 1 called the primary market, which is the
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contemporary market. Primary means it comes from the
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the the studio of the artist goes to the gallery and straight
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to the first owner. Then it's just fresh to the
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market. It's never been anywhere and
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that's primary. Once someone has owned it and
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sell it to someone else, it can be after six months, after 10
00:13:03
years, after 100 years, you, you start to go in the secondary
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market that the work has already an history and that's where you
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check the provenance, the title of a property and and so on and
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so forth. And there are really 2 markets
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In the primary market, of course, it's more
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straightforward. You buy from a gallery, an
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artist you like and then the work.
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I think as an advisor here, the first work is accessibility,
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which is in the very, very successful contemporary market
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at the moment. If an an artist is very much in
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demand, let's say there's an exhibition in a big gallery, you
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have 30 works, but there are 200 people who want the works.
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How do they choose? Then an advisor will help you
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jump the queue. It might take one exhibition, 2
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exhibition, but that's kind of the role to be there to keep in
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touch with the right person and make sure you have access that's
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ahead because that's a lot of time.
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That's knowing the right channel.
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Then that's what as an advisor, you do more in contemporary.
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The second thing, in contemporary, you've got a lot
00:14:23
of new artists. How do you choose, how do you
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navigate that? Some people are more focusing me
00:14:29
on this primary or what we call the emerging market, where they
00:14:35
just know who's hot, who's good. They talk to curators like you
00:14:41
who look at the artist they've been to the studio.
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Then it's a bit of a different work, but that's also very
00:14:48
useful to be helped in the the the contemporary or primary
00:14:52
market. So I haven't forgotten that
00:14:54
you're also a broker, So what does that mean?
00:14:57
Then brokering is when you put A&B together, you have someone
00:15:02
who wants to sell a work of art and someone who wants to buy a
00:15:05
work of art and you add the bridge in the middle.
00:15:09
Then either you place the work or you try to find the work.
00:15:14
But generally these for example, I can be with discussion with a
00:15:19
client at the end they might just give me the work on
00:15:23
consignment and my role is to then I would kind of take care
00:15:28
of the work for six months until I've placed it in a collection
00:15:32
or with someone. Then that's called brokering.
00:15:35
It's really about the deal. Advisory is different.
00:15:38
You just give your advice and you will be paid on the advice
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and that's a little bit different.
00:15:44
But either way, you always know for who you work and that's very
00:15:49
important from the the beginning.
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You know if you work for the seller or for the buyer and
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that's crystal clear and that reflects in who is going to pay
00:16:01
you. Because that was going to be my
00:16:02
next question. I think the most mysterious
00:16:04
thing for people and even in the art world, sometimes we talk,
00:16:09
you know, with smaller galleries or curators amongst ourselves
00:16:12
and even with artists and we wonder, how do art advisors get
00:16:15
paid? How does it work?
00:16:17
You're kind of in the middle of the transaction.
00:16:20
And so do galleries pay you? Do your clients, do you have a,
00:16:24
a portfolio of clients and then they will pay you monthly for
00:16:30
you to find words for them. How does that work?
00:16:32
And be transparent as much as you can obviously, because
00:16:35
they're secrets of the trade. But can you just enlighten us a
00:16:38
little bit about? That I will try, but you might
00:16:41
be a bit disappointed because there are as many solution as
00:16:47
their advisors and clients. I think you really work with
00:16:52
whatever is the need. If someone is totally new, the
00:16:55
journey would be different and then the way I set the the fees
00:16:59
would be kind of because you have to first do the journey of
00:17:03
finding what you want and that takes time and that's education.
00:17:06
Then then there are many different ways then that has to
00:17:10
be discussed always beforehand. You don't kind of start
00:17:15
discussing your fees in the middle of a deal that doesn't
00:17:18
work. Then you know where you stand
00:17:20
and you say this is my service, this is the way I do it.
00:17:23
And it really depends what the client needs.
00:17:25
If if it's someone new wants something, you know you have
00:17:29
them. You find the things you do the
00:17:31
full white glove service that may be on a retainer, which
00:17:35
means they can pay you per year and then you do the work for
00:17:42
them. You might also work for for I
00:17:46
might work for someone who's a seasoned collectors and and he
00:17:49
just want one thing. Find me this then that would be
00:17:53
a fee on the work. If you are a broker, you, for
00:17:59
example, if I take something on consignment, I will clearly
00:18:02
write in the contract, what is my, my, my fee on the sale.
00:18:07
Then this is very clear. But always from the beginning,
00:18:10
because the worst is when you're in the middle of closing a
00:18:15
transaction or an acquisition of a work and you start drawing
00:18:20
numbers and trying to make room for yourself that that's not the
00:18:23
way I work. And I think clarity from the
00:18:26
beginning, who you work with, what is your work and your added
00:18:31
value and how much you're going to be paid for that and then
00:18:35
everyone's happy. Do you know I have to tell you,
00:18:37
Liberty, how many times have people contacted me to do a
00:18:42
talk, to do an interview, to write a text, to curate an
00:18:46
exhibition without telling me how I'm going to get paid, how
00:18:51
much I'm going to get paid, when I'm going to get paid?
00:18:55
And I'm always the one to say, OK, that's interesting, but can
00:19:00
we talk? Can we talk?
00:19:01
Money, you know, and it kind of feels like in the art world and
00:19:06
I, that leads me to my next question.
00:19:08
Money is a bit of a dirty word. You don't really want to talk
00:19:11
about it. I think we've inherited this
00:19:14
thing of the saloon, you know, in the 18th and 19th century,
00:19:17
where people would do arts as a hobby and professionals in the
00:19:22
art world kind of have, especially independent ones like
00:19:25
myself and you. And to a certain extent, we have
00:19:29
to really battle for it in the contemporary art world.
00:19:32
And I'm a bit jealous, I have to say, of what you're saying.
00:19:35
And I think it's really interesting for our listeners
00:19:38
who are independent workers as well, and also for the artists
00:19:41
sometimes to really not be ashamed of talking about money.
00:19:46
And I, I'm talking about this because how many artists have I
00:19:50
told, you know, you need to be very clear with your galleries.
00:19:53
You need to discuss percentages, You need to discuss payments,
00:19:57
you need to discuss the system of payment.
00:20:00
And I always have the answer of, Oh yeah.
00:20:02
But you know, I'd never think about those things.
00:20:05
Like how how do you not think of we're in the capitalist society.
00:20:09
You have to think of your capital.
00:20:11
You know, it's, it's incredible. So thank you.
00:20:13
That's that's amazing. To add on that, I think yes,
00:20:16
Jerry Daisy's kind of idea of art is beautiful.
00:20:20
Art is for the heart. And that's why, you know, the
00:20:23
conversation with the money doesn't always come at the
00:20:26
forefront because you don't want to keep the poetry.
00:20:28
That's one thing. So secondly, it's in, in Europe,
00:20:35
the, the notion of service is not the same as in America.
00:20:39
I think people don't really see the added value.
00:20:42
They don't see what you bring to the table.
00:20:45
And they would take your advice as a curator, you know you've,
00:20:48
you've got many years of seeing so many things, you know so
00:20:51
much, but they will just ask you for your opinion.
00:20:55
Your opinion is valuable, but it will it'll be difficult for you
00:21:01
to then charge and people are not used to that and they are
00:21:05
not really wanting to do that. Then that's a problem.
00:21:08
That's that's a difficult conversation for advisors, for
00:21:11
curators, for artists. I can totally get it.
00:21:15
I get in America, it's more, it would be easier to say, you
00:21:21
know, I, I help you, I'll give you this service.
00:21:23
The service system is, is better.
00:21:27
I don't think in Europe people really pay, but then then it's
00:21:30
normal. You feel like that it's not
00:21:31
really easy to bring the, the money thing to the table.
00:21:35
That's why I always think it's better to bring it right in
00:21:38
front, right, right at the beginning and say, and also in
00:21:42
the well, we help a lot and I do so many things for free.
00:21:46
I also believe in being generous because if you're generous,
00:21:50
things good in the world become to you.
00:21:53
It can't be by the meter. Basically you just I, I give a
00:21:57
lot and then you establish some, some good relationship, some
00:22:06
trust, and then you can work together.
00:22:08
And I'm sure we've curated it the same, because how long is it
00:22:12
before a museum start to pay you, for example?
00:22:15
Yes, Well, well, with curators, with especially independent
00:22:19
curators, it's very simple. You are hired to do an
00:22:22
exhibition and you do it. The problem is that you
00:22:25
sometimes people reach out to you, you start working and you
00:22:28
think, OK, I'll draw out, you know, a plan or an exhibition or
00:22:32
a concept. And then suddenly you're 3456
00:22:36
months in and you haven't discussed the fee yet.
00:22:40
So at a certain point, you kind of go, oh, wait a minute, I'm
00:22:43
not, I'm OK. We're having this discussion
00:22:46
because one thing is to have a meeting with someone and discuss
00:22:49
possibilities. And you're giving, like you say,
00:22:52
free samples. Like I just had a conversation
00:22:55
with a high profile curator who's in the museum.
00:22:59
And we were talking about collections.
00:23:01
And I said, well, you know, I find it really interesting to do
00:23:04
this and this and this and within the collection as an
00:23:06
exhibition. And I learned afterwards that
00:23:10
they had taken this idea and, and, and taken it to fruition.
00:23:15
And I'm very happy. I don't want that idea.
00:23:17
I mean, ideas, you know, I was going to say something very
00:23:22
rude, but I'm going to say something else.
00:23:25
Ideas are like noses. Everyone, everyone has them.
00:23:28
I was going to say another part of the body because the
00:23:30
expression is very, very rude. So I'm so glad I stopped myself.
00:23:35
Anyway, that's great. That's just part of
00:23:38
conversations and I'm very happy.
00:23:41
And my husband keeps telling me, oh, people steal ideas from you
00:23:44
all the time. It's not stealing, it's just the
00:23:46
way it works. As professionals, we discuss, we
00:23:50
talk and anything. Anyway, things are in the
00:23:54
zeitgeist, they're in the air. And if you don't do it, someone
00:23:57
else will do it. And that's perfect.
00:23:58
It's fine. But then when you're contacted
00:24:01
by an institution to do a talk, say for example, they give you
00:24:05
the contact of with the artist, you start working with the
00:24:07
artist and you're ready in the midst of the of working towards
00:24:12
the project, towards the talk. And no one has asked you or told
00:24:16
you anything about a fee. That's problematic.
00:24:19
It is, and it's very you're not at ease.
00:24:23
But we must learn, especially as women to put the question on the
00:24:28
table. And that's a learning curve and
00:24:31
that with a big, big smile. And we have value.
00:24:35
It's also thinking of your own worth because if you don't ask,
00:24:41
it's, it's like you don't value your advice.
00:24:44
And at one point you. Just not say.
00:24:46
I'm worth it. I'm worth it.
00:24:48
I'm. Bringing some Exactly.
00:24:50
I'm bringing something to the table.
00:24:52
And of course, you're very lucky, Joanna, because you've
00:24:54
got about 10 ideas a minute. Then if you lose 1 doesn't
00:24:59
matter because you know, your brain is so full of ideas and
00:25:03
fresh and you know, this is wonderful about you, then it's
00:25:07
great not to get the Grinch about losing 1 idea.
00:25:10
But it's also, I think all of us as women, I guess men too, but
00:25:14
especially I feel as women, we need to learn to ask.
00:25:18
Yes, absolutely. Now I'm very, I mean, I've come
00:25:20
to a point when I, when I'm invited to something, I reply
00:25:24
back saying I'm very interested. What would be the fee?
00:25:27
Or do you prefer to tell you my fee?
00:25:30
I'm, I have no issues, no qualms whatsoever, you know, and now
00:25:34
I'm kind of like preaching, you know, about it.
00:25:37
I'm talking to artists because with artists it's terrible,
00:25:40
artists who don't. Have.
00:25:43
It's even harder, you know, because they, like you say, oh,
00:25:46
it kind of destroys the poetry. It doesn't.
00:25:49
It makes you. And I think what you said is
00:25:51
absolutely crucial. It makes you be respected.
00:25:55
People respect you when you know your own value.
00:25:58
And another thing I wanted to highlight is that you're
00:26:01
absolutely right. There's a big difference between
00:26:05
the United States and Europe. There's a huge gap in the way
00:26:12
work is appreciated and how you put money, where you put you,
00:26:16
where you put value. That's the in the United States,
00:26:19
those two things go together even in the art world, whereas
00:26:23
here it's much more difficult. And I want to say here I, I
00:26:27
think the UK is kind of an exception.
00:26:29
I think the UK is has. Yeah, UK.
00:26:32
Is. Yes, has a foot in the United
00:26:34
States. It's it's kind of a similar
00:26:36
mentality. But in the rest of Europe, it's
00:26:39
still very difficult and people don't understand what it is to
00:26:42
work independently as an intermediary, you know, which is
00:26:45
what we do. So I'm very happy to do this
00:26:48
episode with you. But now I have a very difficult
00:26:50
question for you. Another one, another one which
00:26:55
is that? OK, So art advisors are
00:26:58
demonized, right? You know, you and I were in
00:27:02
Paris for Art Basel last week, and even last week someone told
00:27:07
me, you know, oh, the art world, the speculative market, da, da,
00:27:10
da. And the art advisors, I mean,
00:27:12
they're the ones you are messing up the system and they're guilty
00:27:17
of supporting speculative prices, da, da, da.
00:27:20
So what would you say about that?
00:27:22
I mean, I'm sure that like with everything, there are art
00:27:25
advisors and art advisors. So probably the way you work
00:27:29
might be different from another way of working for another art
00:27:33
advisor. But how, how do you respond to
00:27:36
that? Because I'm I'm sure you're
00:27:37
aware of it. I don't know.
00:27:40
As you say they are art advisor and art advisor and art advisor
00:27:44
and art advisor. They come in every shape and
00:27:47
forms. Anyone can call themselves art
00:27:50
advisor. After COVID there was a big
00:27:53
joke. It was the Gmail art advisor.
00:27:55
Everyone was advisor at Gmail then already like a Gmail.
00:28:01
That's kind of like, all right. Are you a real professional?
00:28:05
I, I think you, I work with a lot of people who are extremely
00:28:10
professional. They know what they're doing.
00:28:12
They're serious. You know, they really give a
00:28:15
service in the industry, which is becoming more and more of a
00:28:19
very serious industry. There are lots of very, very
00:28:22
good people. Of course, you have people who
00:28:26
make the news because it's a glamorous industry.
00:28:29
And now there's one big art advisor called Lisa Schiff who
00:28:34
just kind of fall down. Yeah, she's just fall down a big
00:28:38
pedestal and she she screwed up completely and now she's
00:28:45
pleading guilty. This does not help.
00:28:47
Not everyone is like her and also you have to realize that.
00:28:51
She do for our listeners who are probably not aware of who this
00:28:54
is. She, I'm not entirely sure
00:28:56
because I tried to stay away from these, these things, but
00:28:59
basically it was a bit of like a Ponzi scheme.
00:29:03
She had some, not really a Ponzi scheme, but she had some clients
00:29:08
and she used money from the clients to kind of enjoy a very
00:29:18
beautiful life. And she was owning money and at
00:29:21
one point it just didn't add up and the whole thing pull out.
00:29:25
And she was a really, really, really big art advisor.
00:29:29
She was huge and she was advising big LA superstars and
00:29:35
that's going to be in the news and that's not good.
00:29:39
But not everyone is like that. And I can also imagine that when
00:29:43
you are in this kind of circle superstars, when you have lots
00:29:47
of millions of dollars, the temptation is higher than then
00:29:53
in other places. And you know that's it can
00:29:57
happen, but there are lots of very correct other advisor.
00:30:01
You can work in transparency. I really believe in transparency
00:30:07
and everything is going to be more and more transparent
00:30:10
anyway. Then you have contracts you have
00:30:13
seen which are clear. You can show the invoices.
00:30:18
You know, I don't think it should be demonized as you say.
00:30:22
I think it's getting more and more, not regulated, but more
00:30:25
and more transparent, more and more serious people.
00:30:29
But you just have to be careful who you hire.
00:30:32
Then make your research work with people who are in the know,
00:30:37
who have a good curriculum, who have some experience.
00:30:43
I would do that like in any industry.
00:30:46
You know you would not take an insurance broker who is a Gmail
00:30:49
insurance broker. OK.
00:30:51
So I have a question from from another angle, which is that
00:30:55
we've had conversations in Paris, so we were visiting art
00:30:58
fairs. And I have a feeling when I talk
00:31:02
to you and to some of your colleagues that there are
00:31:06
certain kinds of works that you wouldn't be able to sell to your
00:31:11
clients because the artists are not known enough for maybe
00:31:15
they're, they're not in the right platforms.
00:31:18
For example, even if there are in an art fair, they are not the
00:31:21
right investments, let's say. So there's a fine line between
00:31:26
investment and pleasure in what you do.
00:31:29
So my question to you would be, do you wait for the artist to
00:31:33
get to a certain stage? Do you have clients who don't
00:31:36
care and just want a certain kind of work and you look for
00:31:40
that kind of work for them? Do you have frustration
00:31:44
sometimes in really loving an artist and thinking I will never
00:31:48
be able to place an artwork of this person because I know you
00:31:52
to be incredibly passionate about contemporary art.
00:31:55
Even though I introduced you as a kind of Impressionism
00:31:59
specialist, you are incredibly aware of contemporary art and
00:32:04
you have a fine detailed way of looking at things, and I've seen
00:32:09
you take a lot of pleasure in that.
00:32:11
So tell me a little bit about that.
00:32:14
Then it's funny, you always think of pleasure and then the
00:32:17
investment. They can go together.
00:32:21
The pleasure is there but and should always be there,
00:32:25
especially if you are someone who's going to buy art.
00:32:29
I really see myself as someone who's a safeguard and you can
00:32:34
buy anything you want. This is not a problem.
00:32:36
Any artist you know, you can go in every direction.
00:32:40
You just have to do your homework to make sure you are
00:32:42
buying the right thing. And, and I think the art of
00:32:46
buying, and that's where the role of the art advisor is, is
00:32:50
often not to buy. You don't want to buy
00:32:52
everything. You have to focus on quality.
00:32:55
Yeah, I'm always I'm there to make sure you are not buying.
00:33:00
Because people are not aware that there's so many people who
00:33:03
buy compulsively. I worked in galleries and I've
00:33:07
seen that. And these people, they don't
00:33:10
need someone to advise them. They know what they're doing and
00:33:13
but they might take someone to help them saying oh.
00:33:16
Alright. Take a step back.
00:33:18
Relax, take a step back and maybe have a more cohesive
00:33:21
collection and and maybe organise there it tastes a
00:33:25
little bit better. And not buy the same thing over
00:33:28
and over again, you know? Yeah, I mean.
00:33:30
But if you find your the gallery of your, then the the commercial
00:33:34
gallery of your dream, you love that program entirely.
00:33:38
This is your taste. You don't need someone else to
00:33:41
help you. You just find someone nice in
00:33:43
that gallery and you buy their program in depth and that could
00:33:46
be one way to do it. Why not after?
00:33:51
If you want to have more diversification or you don't
00:33:55
know where to start, that's maybe good to have a
00:33:58
conversation with Someone Like You.
00:34:01
John I was a curator or someone like me who kind of help just
00:34:05
thinking, what do we really want to buy?
00:34:09
Which direction? Being a bit careful because, you
00:34:12
know, you go to an art fair. It's like a candy store.
00:34:15
It's so tempting. Especially I'll Basel this year.
00:34:20
Oh yeah, exactly. It's just it's a joy.
00:34:23
And then if you are really into very contemporary artists, maybe
00:34:26
you work with someone who's really into the emerging artist.
00:34:31
I'm more kind of solid with the 20th century then, but I also do
00:34:36
contemporary, but they they, I would not be the person for
00:34:39
pure, pure, pure contemporary ethic.
00:34:42
And then there are some artists I absolutely adore and I work
00:34:46
with and I really want to place them then some.
00:34:51
I work with an estate, for example, and I absolutely adore
00:34:54
work and I'm going beyond my your role, my role exactly to to
00:35:02
talk to curator. We we've talked about that
00:35:04
artist, placing her in in museum, helping the estate and
00:35:08
I'm passionate about that artist and I own some of her work.
00:35:11
Yeah, I think you and I are very complimentary in the sense that
00:35:14
you bring a clear perspective from and within the market and
00:35:19
for the market. And I think you're right,
00:35:21
curators balance out things because let's not be naive.
00:35:25
Obviously the work I did with my Co curator Joanna Carrilli for
00:35:31
the artist Emma Blanc obviously was a touring exhibition within
00:35:35
Europe and Israel and of course it contributes to bring the
00:35:41
prices up, you know if she does all these exhibitions.
00:35:46
But we bring the artist because we believe in the quality of the
00:35:51
work. So in some ways we inject a
00:35:54
completely different perspective into the market, which is OK.
00:35:58
We are art specialists. We can explain by curating a
00:36:03
perfect show that this artist is incredible, is worth taking into
00:36:09
institutions. And when you create shows in
00:36:12
institutions as well, what happens, Especially when it's
00:36:14
individual shows. Sometimes the museum buys the
00:36:18
work, which has happened with Erma Blank, so obviously the
00:36:21
price goes up. She's more valued because she's
00:36:24
in more institutional collections, but that's not why
00:36:27
we do the work. We do the work because we
00:36:30
believe in the artists, so we can't.
00:36:32
Exactly. And that should be your pride.
00:36:34
I think your pride is not in her selling more or less.
00:36:38
And your pride is you believed in her, you love her work,
00:36:42
you're touched by her work and you really want to bring her to
00:36:46
the world. And how beautiful that at the
00:36:47
end she end up with five shows. She ends up with pieces in
00:36:52
museum and then now a great gallery who represents her.
00:36:56
You know, that should be your pride.
00:36:57
And actually, that's the, the essence of your work is to
00:37:01
reveal to the work, to the world, some artist.
00:37:05
And she's not an easy artist. She's quite minimalist.
00:37:08
And you really brought her to light and thank you for that.
00:37:12
It's because she's wonderful. Yeah, she's incredible.
00:37:15
So Speaking of exhibitions, we're going to move on to the
00:37:19
second part of our conversation, which is about exhibitions.
00:37:24
But in this context today, it's not about an exhibition that you
00:37:28
and I have visited like Emily and I do.
00:37:30
This is a different kind of question.
00:37:32
So the first one I have for you is what was the exhibition that
00:37:38
marked something for you that was foundational, even if it was
00:37:42
when you were five years old? Like what was the exhibition you
00:37:45
visited that really changed the game for you and even maybe
00:37:51
convinced you to work in the art world?
00:37:57
For me, that the, the exhibition, which was the most
00:38:00
important in, in a way that it really brought me so much
00:38:05
clarity and I really saw how an exhibition can transform your
00:38:11
view of an artist and your understanding.
00:38:14
Was in New York in 1996 when I went to MoMA on my own, because
00:38:20
that's always where I have the, the biggest kind of revelation
00:38:24
when I'm on my own. Even though I love going to
00:38:27
exhibition with you, I always think when you go and see an
00:38:31
exhibition, I, I go as a, as my, my old, 15 years old and very
00:38:37
fresh mind. And I'm like, bring it on, show
00:38:41
me, talk to me. The doors are opening.
00:38:45
And then you really have to open your mind and focus and, and
00:38:48
start the dialogue with the artist.
00:38:50
And I was in Mama in in New York and I went to see a very big
00:38:55
show called Picasso and Portraiture, which was about
00:38:59
representation of the different woman in his life and the
00:39:04
transformation in his work. And I don't know why, but the
00:39:07
way was set up in the MoMA, which is very big museum with
00:39:12
big rooms, was one room per woman in Picasso's life.
00:39:17
And Picasso had different partners in his life with always
00:39:22
very different stories and they were well told.
00:39:25
And the women are very different and they each of them, when he
00:39:30
loves them, they become part of his herb and his herb.
00:39:37
It's very funny how they are the herb and the herb is what the
00:39:41
artist has to say and it all goes together.
00:39:44
Then it's not about the woman herself, and it's not about just
00:39:48
the herb. It's she brings.
00:39:50
Each woman brings something new in his discourse.
00:39:54
And it was so clear the decades, you know, there's Olga, the
00:39:58
wife, she's a a Russian dancer. He meets her and he starts to be
00:40:04
successful and he's becoming a bit of a bourgeois.
00:40:08
He's 40 years old. He has his first child and it's
00:40:11
it's the end of the First World War.
00:40:14
And his line is very classical. There's the whole kind of.
00:40:20
In, in Europe, there's a whole movement about return to order
00:40:24
and it's everything is classic. The drawings are classic, the
00:40:28
representation is classic. They, they look at Ang and he's
00:40:33
becoming quite bourgeois and this is a very big phase,
00:40:36
beautiful phase in his in his earth.
00:40:40
Then that was one room. And then you move to the, the
00:40:45
suddenly, you know, after being such a bourgeois, gets a little
00:40:48
bit bored, becomes quite difficult.
00:40:51
I think she's bipolar and and it's a bit of a hell in his
00:40:54
couple. And he meets this young woman.
00:40:57
She's 17 years old. She's blonde, she's very sporty.
00:41:00
She's called Maritares. And a big love affair will start
00:41:05
and is painting completely transformed, very colourful,
00:41:08
full of love. Then in that that room, you can
00:41:12
see all the, the, the, the pastely colours, very bright
00:41:15
colours, the love, the Fern, the, the, the hues and the sex.
00:41:20
It's everywhere. It's like completely
00:41:22
overwhelming. And that's Mahita's phase.
00:41:25
And with the. 17 year olds. Ah, old Picasso.
00:41:28
Yeah. I know, I know.
00:41:29
That's why he's been a bit in the gutter, but he's coming back
00:41:32
now. It it's it's it's.
00:41:34
I'm happy to leave him in the gutter, but I can see that
00:41:37
you're very passionate about him, so no you.
00:41:39
Have to look at the you have to look at the art, not at the
00:41:42
life, but that's another conversation.
00:41:44
And and then you move to it meets Dohama after that
00:41:48
relationship and do Hama. She's this very strong brunette
00:41:55
surrealist artist, the big character, and she will become
00:42:00
Lafam Kipler, the crying woman, because Spain is going through a
00:42:04
terrible, terrible civil war. And this is very painful for
00:42:10
Picasso, the the Spaniard. And that kind of reflects
00:42:13
through the woman. And that exhibition really
00:42:16
showed how Picasso transformed with what was going on outside
00:42:23
in the world through the woman he was loving and choosing as
00:42:27
sitters. And that was such a revelation.
00:42:31
And actually, it, it's been my anchor for reading Picasso of,
00:42:39
you know, each time you show me a Picasso, I can immediately
00:42:42
know where that fits because I have this exhibition who has
00:42:45
structured my mind and my understanding of his very long
00:42:49
career and very, very fructose of I can always relate to that,
00:42:57
that that exhibition and to have such a revelation, you know, I,
00:43:02
I would be always thankful to the curators who've put that
00:43:04
together. It was incredible.
00:43:06
But what would be your big exhibition, Joanna?
00:43:09
What? What did change your your life?
00:43:13
I've been thinking about that and I have to say I wasn't aware
00:43:17
of curating weirdly when I was a child.
00:43:20
And I think it's difficult to understand curating.
00:43:25
And that's why, you know, in in some ways it's one of the
00:43:29
reasons why I decided to set up the podcast, because people are
00:43:31
not always aware of the fact that we really think
00:43:33
exhibitions. And I love your example because
00:43:36
feminism aside, that's such a detailed exhibition that we
00:43:40
don't have very often because people are presented as like
00:43:43
these geniuses coming from a sort of pure cloud where no,
00:43:48
you're touched by the moment you're going through in history,
00:43:52
you're going to touch by politics, Even if you're a very
00:43:55
minimalist, which is what I learnt with Emma Blanc, painter
00:43:59
or artist, there is change across time in your work.
00:44:03
And I think that's really interesting.
00:44:05
And it is the job of the of curating to do that and to, and
00:44:08
it's not done precisely very often.
00:44:12
But of course, you know, exhibitions per SE.
00:44:16
If I go way back, I don't have a specific exhibition, but I have
00:44:21
an experience in a space. When I was growing up in Lisbon,
00:44:25
my mum would take me to Gurbanken Foundation.
00:44:29
And she would always. You, you know the space.
00:44:32
It's incredible. And for those who don't know,
00:44:35
Portugal went through a very long dictatorship, which most
00:44:39
people know, but it had a real impact on art.
00:44:43
So there was no art anywhere. Art museums only showed very
00:44:47
official art, which is was not that bad actually when, but that
00:44:51
would be a whole other conversation.
00:44:54
But Gobenkin Foundation was founded by Mr. Gobenkin, which
00:44:58
who's called the 1% because he put 1%, he sold his fuel
00:45:06
business in return for having always having 1% of the income
00:45:11
from the company. And so with that, he just built
00:45:14
a huge collection and he's, he, he set himself up in Portugal.
00:45:18
For some reason he fell in love with the with the country was
00:45:21
Armenian and he lived in Paris for a long time.
00:45:24
And then he moved to Portugal. And that was the only place
00:45:27
during the dictatorship that you had contemporary art or you had
00:45:31
modern art and that artists could tap into in, in terms of
00:45:35
grants to go study elsewhere and to move away from the country
00:45:39
which was under such a horrible dictatorship.
00:45:42
So Gobenkin was really important in Portugal and it keeps on
00:45:46
having an amazing activity. They have incredible exhibitions
00:45:50
and they have the permanent collection and I remember my mum
00:45:53
taking me there and my, my poor mum, I don't know how she, I
00:45:58
don't know how she put up with me.
00:46:00
I remember being very, very probably under 10 years old and
00:46:03
explaining the abstract works. I love the abstraction and the
00:46:06
colours and just explaining the paintings to my mum.
00:46:12
I don't know. She was very patient or she was
00:46:14
probably laughing her, you know, her socks off.
00:46:16
But I'm sure she was very happy because often children, they
00:46:20
just just, they can't, they can't care less.
00:46:23
In an exhibition, very difficult for them to focus.
00:46:25
And if you have a child who's looking at something, this is
00:46:28
bless. Yeah, she loved it.
00:46:30
So I think she probably was very happy to also, you know, get
00:46:33
some time with the with the artworks.
00:46:35
And there's an artist in in Portugal called Rosetti Mirage.
00:46:41
And he illustrated children's books, but he was also in
00:46:44
Gulbankian and he has these very still easy, very schematic.
00:46:50
It was that time, it was the end of the 70s, beginning of the
00:46:53
80s, where you had a lot of abstraction and a lot of
00:46:56
colours, so inherited from modernism in children's books
00:47:01
and in education. And so we were still in that
00:47:04
blissful time where those things were important.
00:47:07
And I remember seeing him in my books and then seeing him in the
00:47:11
museum. It was such an incredible thing.
00:47:13
And it spoke so much to me. And so, yeah, OK that.
00:47:17
That must be that must be your challenge for 2025.
00:47:21
You must meet him. Come on, this is I, I take you
00:47:25
on that. We'll check on the on the
00:47:27
podcast at the end of 2025. You must meet him.
00:47:31
That's it. That's it.
00:47:32
Yeah, Challenge. Close the circle.
00:47:34
Yes, Challenge. That's a challenge.
00:47:35
You know, everyone is listening. You've got the challenge.
00:47:41
So I have another question for you now, which is what is the
00:47:44
exhibition that gives you the most FOMO?
00:47:47
You know, the exhibition where you think, I wish I could have
00:47:51
been there, you know, either because you weren't born yet or
00:47:54
because you were somewhere else and you've heard of this show.
00:47:58
What is the exhibition that gives you that feeling?
00:48:02
OK. For FOMO, I think coming back to
00:48:05
your podcast, you I realised that I live in a big town,
00:48:13
London, where there are lots of fantastic exhibition and like
00:48:17
you when I guess that's why you started that, that podcast, I, I
00:48:22
can miss them so easily, which makes me so angry with myself.
00:48:27
Then now I've set a time every week to go and see exhibition,
00:48:32
not to miss them. And you travel the world and you
00:48:35
miss what's on your doorstep. Then that's FOMO #1 which I'm
00:48:39
working on it, I'm curing it. I'm, I'm kind of on the mend.
00:48:45
And I think your podcast is also a big help to know what's going
00:48:50
on, what not to be missed in my in our own town.
00:48:53
Then that's first foremost. And then for, you know, as a
00:48:57
specialist in impressionist and modern art, the the one
00:49:01
exhibition that was always the dream and I think is the dream
00:49:05
of anyone in my field is the first Impression Impressionist
00:49:11
exhibition, which took place in 1874 in Paris in a small
00:49:21
photographer studio. The the Nada studio.
00:49:27
Exactly. And all the, the, the impression
00:49:30
is they got so fed up with the studio, not with the Salon, not
00:49:34
to get in. They set up their own exhibition
00:49:39
small room and they were like, OK, let's roll on.
00:49:42
And that's kind of where it all started.
00:49:45
And then if there was one exhibition where it can be a
00:49:49
little teeny mosquitoes and go in and watch, it would be that.
00:49:56
I think that's kind of where it all started.
00:49:59
It's also what it is about avant-garde and, you know,
00:50:04
breaking from the mould. It's just fantastic.
00:50:07
And thanks God, last year the music Dorsey in celebration of
00:50:12
the must be 100 years of 150 years, sorry of the
00:50:17
Impressionist movement. They put together a fantastic
00:50:21
exhibition which recreated the Nada studio and they found most
00:50:26
of the works. Yeah.
00:50:27
You're giving me FOMO. That's it.
00:50:29
That's a big. FOMO.
00:50:30
Right now. That's a big formal then.
00:50:34
And actually he was, according to one of your colleague, a
00:50:38
curator at the Orsay. He was paired there and the the
00:50:43
length of the exhibition, the most successful exhibition they
00:50:49
ever had in terms of numbers, which is incredible because it
00:50:53
was when I went in, I was so happy.
00:50:56
And I you see the Nada studio and exactly with the all the
00:51:00
painting and they kind of recreated the place and this
00:51:03
also show a lot of paintings from the side of them.
00:51:06
You can see what was taste of the time and what the
00:51:11
impressionist we're trying to create, which is a complete
00:51:14
different feel in terms of painting and, and what they
00:51:18
wanted to say. And that was a very interesting
00:51:22
way to really show what was happening at the time in Paris.
00:51:25
And I thought, oh, that's quite a niche exhibition, but actually
00:51:29
it's a really big blockbuster. And now it's your second chance.
00:51:33
Don't know if you're going to take that, but it's in
00:51:36
Washington. It's just opened in Washington
00:51:38
two weeks ago. You walk in and you are, you are
00:51:41
there. It's 1874.
00:51:42
It's it's incredible. It's so interesting that you're
00:51:45
talking about this, the the need for the impressionist, which
00:51:48
which is arguably and from what you say, the most famous and
00:51:54
appreciated movement since the mid 19th century.
00:51:59
For the general public. It's interesting to know that
00:52:02
they had no place to show their work.
00:52:04
They were not appreciated. And we forget.
00:52:06
We forget that and. No, not many people went.
00:52:09
And the people who went there, they were laughing there.
00:52:11
They hated it. They they, no, they, they
00:52:14
actually, they didn't hated it. I think some did, but a lot of
00:52:17
people were just making fun and a lot of critics, they were just
00:52:21
like having a complete laugh. People were going there to have
00:52:25
a laugh that way. It was.
00:52:27
But what's interesting in that exhibition is you see that the
00:52:30
works which are a bit now out of fashion from the real salon,
00:52:35
the, the official salon was also very, very good.
00:52:39
And it was, it was this fantastic big painting, which
00:52:42
are now kind of put a bit of a on on the side in museums.
00:52:46
And, and it's a shame because there are some fantastic
00:52:49
paintings. And by the way, I, I always
00:52:52
think when I go to big art fairs, the whole world is
00:52:56
rushing there and everyone is well dressed and it's like it's
00:53:01
a big social events and, and it's all about painting.
00:53:04
And for me, I'm sure that what we are living now, it's more or
00:53:09
less what's what's happening at the salon, you know, this kind
00:53:11
of rush. And, and that's why I always
00:53:14
think the art there are the salon of the time.
00:53:17
And you know, it was a moment where Europe was wealthy.
00:53:20
Like, you know, we are in a wealthy moment also and it's
00:53:23
it's the same. Oh my gosh, it's, I'm so happy
00:53:27
because no one can see me, but I just gasped and kind of like put
00:53:30
my hand to my mouth because I've been, I was saying this in our,
00:53:34
in Paris last week. I was saying this is a pompier.
00:53:37
So for those who don't know, a pompier is a term that
00:53:42
characterises a very kind of in your face, unsubtle,
00:53:47
unsophisticated type of work. That was very like new
00:53:53
neoclassicism that was very famous at the end of the 19th
00:53:58
century, right, Liberty? I'm not saying.
00:54:01
Anything. Yeah, it's.
00:54:02
It's end of the century. Yeah, yeah.
00:54:04
But it's really from, I don't know when it starts, but it's
00:54:07
really all the 19th century. Exactly.
00:54:10
And then it goes all the way and then it morphs into the
00:54:14
Exposition Universal way. They were also integrating
00:54:18
furniture and discoveries and architecture and, and, and there
00:54:23
there were these big places where people were coming in
00:54:25
mass. That that's really interesting
00:54:27
because I do share what you're saying.
00:54:30
I mean, there's a lot of what we see even in museums nowadays
00:54:33
that will not stand the test of time.
00:54:35
But it's also important that it is there because one of the
00:54:39
things I usually say in the podcast is that sometimes you
00:54:43
look, for example, Jose Bonar is a very good example of a female
00:54:47
artist. He was, you know, she painted
00:54:51
animals. She was a a notorious lesbian of
00:54:54
the 19th century. And she painted what she could
00:54:59
paint. And then she expressed herself
00:55:01
through those animals that she depicted.
00:55:03
And I remember being in, when I lived in Paris, there was kind
00:55:06
of a turning point where she went from being considered
00:55:09
kitsch to being considered someone who was saying something
00:55:13
through a very strong symbolism with animals and a very
00:55:17
expressive kind of painting. And she was finally appreciated.
00:55:20
So it's always good to have things there.
00:55:22
You know, I'm not against buying and, and investing and, and
00:55:25
taking a risk because sometimes things make sense in a certain
00:55:29
time and then they don't in another and then they make sense
00:55:32
again. So you know.
00:55:34
It's so no, but it's also what is contemporary art.
00:55:38
You know, there is a lot being created.
00:55:41
You need to show it and things will stand.
00:55:44
The will stand in time, some will not, some will disappear
00:55:49
and reappear. And, but this is kind of the,
00:55:53
the, the roots of creation. That's, that's, that's how
00:55:56
things are made and, and everyone is expressing
00:56:00
themselves and you have different mediums and all that.
00:56:02
And that's also how a curator or an advisor can help sift through
00:56:08
that with not much, there is not much gap.
00:56:14
And, and it's, it's difficult to sift through that because we are
00:56:17
in our time. But that's the idea also is to
00:56:20
help sing in this sea of of artists and works and, and, and
00:56:26
trends and, and, and curators are are there to, to explain
00:56:31
and, and, and see. And I think the the other
00:56:34
advisor who also speak to curators and understand and
00:56:38
study a bit more, that's how you can help.
00:56:40
Well done, Liberty for bringing us back to the issue at hand
00:56:45
today. I have one final question for
00:56:48
you and thank you so much for putting up with me for an hour
00:56:53
now. So what would be the exhibition
00:56:58
you would like to see in the future?
00:57:00
What do you want people to set up in a museum?
00:57:05
What kind of exhibitions would you like to see?
00:57:07
What artists maybe you'd like to have a bigger focus on in the
00:57:11
future? Oh, I'm a fan of monographic
00:57:18
exhibition when you focus on one artist because that's really
00:57:23
what helps to understand who's the artist and get into the
00:57:27
earth and earth is complex is the good days, the bad days.
00:57:31
And it's often span of, you know, 30-40, fifty years.
00:57:36
And I think for me, my favorite exhibition are when they are
00:57:41
monographic and they really take a nerve on an artist and they
00:57:44
allow you to understand and make a judgement or get into the
00:57:52
work. Then whoever it is, I think it's
00:57:56
very important to revisit often the big artists and the museum
00:58:01
are doing that in different continents.
00:58:05
All of them you realize maybe a fair knowledge, you know, we
00:58:10
don't speak much about him and maybe, you know, you haven't
00:58:13
been wonderful. He has a complicated and, and
00:58:17
there are lots of problems, but you know, maybe him and, and I
00:58:21
think museum are quite good every 20-30 years to bring back
00:58:27
an artist which, you know, has been a little bit forgotten.
00:58:30
And nowadays a beacon faces around Van Gogh and Monet.
00:58:37
But these exhibitions are going to be more and more difficult
00:58:41
because the cost of moving these works around and the insurance
00:58:46
costs are enormous. And I think for the moment, I'm
00:58:49
really enjoying staying at the National Gallery.
00:58:51
There is a in London, there is a great wrong go exhibition, which
00:58:55
I don't think you can repeat that it, it's 61 works by him.
00:59:00
They've made a huge effort. It, it's, it's, I don't know how
00:59:03
they can borrow so much, I guess because they are the National
00:59:07
Gallery of London. But and the cost of it, it's we
00:59:12
are so spoiled to have that in, in, in, in the city.
00:59:14
Yeah, yeah, that's a great answer because even for reasons
00:59:19
of sustainability, you know, Judy Chicago, when she did the
00:59:22
show at the Serpentine, she didn't bring all her big works.
00:59:26
Ah, interesting. That's another big problem.
00:59:28
That's another big problem because I was speaking to a
00:59:32
collector who grew up in South America and she was saying,
00:59:37
well, you're all talking about sustainability, but in my
00:59:39
country, the only way to see the old masters is if they travel
00:59:44
there. And I think, well, yes, but at
00:59:47
the same time, you know, you probably have local big masters
00:59:51
and you know, and you do a big crip once in a lifetime and you
00:59:54
see all the masters. I mean, I don't know, I don't
00:59:56
have any answers that don't sound cruel.
00:59:57
But it is true that those exhibitions might be very
01:00:00
difficult also For these reasons.
01:00:03
And there's, there's a big, we have to rethink a lot what we
01:00:06
do. Maybe we extend the exhibitions
01:00:08
and leave them. I mean, the Van Gogh exhibition,
01:00:10
I don't know, could stay for three years over there and they
01:00:13
could find other ways of making people.
01:00:16
That's a good way. That's a good.
01:00:18
I'm sure there are some problems because you can't borrow things
01:00:21
forever, but I think longer. Less is more.
01:00:25
Just do better, but longer. Things can still circulate.
01:00:29
There's other ways of circulating.
01:00:30
It's just a question of preparing things in advance.
01:00:34
The question is the conservation.
01:00:36
The question is the, you know, the preparing things in advance.
01:00:39
We don't always in the art world prepare things.
01:00:41
I mean, when you're an independent curator and you work
01:00:44
in small galleries, you know that museums have their
01:00:46
programs, you know, done for 5-10 years and you think that's
01:00:50
a long time, but it's not, It's not such a long time when you
01:00:53
think about it. So it's a question of timing,
01:00:56
but you've brought the attention to something that's incredible.
01:01:00
First of all, the reason why it's so nice to visit
01:01:02
exhibitions with you. And I'm with you, I love to go
01:01:04
on my own, but it's so nice to visit them with you because
01:01:07
sometimes you're looking at a contemporary, very contemporary,
01:01:10
you know, someone who's in their Ortiz producing something and
01:01:14
you think, oh, this makes me think of K bot.
01:01:18
And I'm like, oh, OK, that's not where my mind would go.
01:01:22
So it's always fascinating. And you're also bringing the
01:01:24
attention to solo exhibitions, which will be our next episode.
01:01:29
We will do a next episode on Mike Kelly.
01:01:31
So having said this, thank you so much, Di birthday.
01:01:35
This was such a pleasure. I think we could go on for an
01:01:38
hour more, but we don't want to torture our listeners.
01:01:41
I think now is the right balance and been really, really
01:01:45
insightful and exciting talking to you.
01:01:49
And I'm pretty sure that our listeners now will be much more
01:01:51
enlightened in regards to all these agents of the art world
01:01:56
between the studio of the artist and the collection.
01:01:59
You know, all of us work in there and we all do something
01:02:02
useful. And I I think it's important to
01:02:04
put the message out there. So thank you so much.
01:02:07
Thank you Joanna, it's been a lot of fun to do the post cast
01:02:10
with you and yeah, I hope you know some answer will be but I
01:02:15
have been brought to light and let's carry on singing,
01:02:18
exhibition and great art. Let's do that.
01:02:21
OK, Well, thank you so much. Bye everyone.
01:02:23
Thank you for listening and have a great, great life.