[00:00:08] Hello Exhibitionistas, we are back.
[00:00:12] I am Joana, the co-host of this podcast where we visit exhibitions so that you have to.
[00:00:19] And we're so glad to be in your presence.
[00:00:21] This is the first episode of Season 2.
[00:00:25] Where we'll just go back and share our thoughts and our feelings about the first season.
[00:00:33] And where we'll dig a bit deeper into the reasons why we do this, so this is going
[00:00:39] to be a conversation between Emily and myself.
[00:00:44] And it's also a way to introduce this new season that has some really, really fascinating
[00:00:50] people coming out pretty good episodes.
[00:00:52] Yeah, exactly.
[00:00:53] We're doing a little bit of the recap that you get on Netflix when you're watching a show,
[00:00:59] It's like a little bit of a look back what happened in the first season.
[00:01:03] You know, some light touch, remembrances, but you're not going to skip over this.
[00:01:08] This is one not to miss.
[00:01:09] So we'll kind of ease in as Joana mentioned and share some thoughts on the previous
[00:01:15] season, some of the things that have been lingering in our minds and a bit of an
[00:01:22] origin story for how and why this all began.
[00:01:26] I'm really looking forward to asking you a few questions, Emily, because sometimes we're so
[00:01:31] busy and we're so like, you know, what should we do?
[00:01:34] Have you done the research on this?
[00:01:36] And we go over our scripts and actually we didn't really ask ourselves the tough questions
[00:01:41] or the pleasurable questions.
[00:01:44] So maybe I will throw in the first question now, which I think, I'm really curious, Emily,
[00:01:51] what did you think when I asked you to do this podcast with me?
[00:01:57] What was like your immediate gut reaction?
[00:02:00] Yeah, my immediate reaction was in very easy.
[00:02:04] Yes.
[00:02:05] I mean, I actually remember where it was when I got the text message from you, which, you
[00:02:10] know, it's great that it was a text message.
[00:02:12] Hey, let's do an arts podcast.
[00:02:14] You know, I, you know, I was in my living room.
[00:02:18] My sister was visiting, I announced to the room, Joanne wants to do an arts podcast together.
[00:02:23] And both Peter and Molly were like, oh, do it.
[00:02:26] And I mean, I think, you know, I think there was a vast underappreciation of the amount
[00:02:32] of time that it would take.
[00:02:35] Definitely, which was part of it made it easy.
[00:02:39] So delusion played a part.
[00:02:41] But also I think, look, we've known each other a long time.
[00:02:45] It has always been one of the great joys of my life to, you know, go and see exhibitions
[00:02:51] with you and chat with you about them and see some of it through your eyes and still have
[00:02:58] my own distinct experience.
[00:03:00] You know, that has been wonderful.
[00:03:01] So it felt like a very natural extension of that.
[00:03:04] The art world as we know is not my expertise and it is your expertise.
[00:03:10] And you have a great way of inviting people in.
[00:03:14] I mean, you've had a great way of inviting me in, I should say.
[00:03:17] And I liked the idea of sharing that experience with other people.
[00:03:23] I mean, I know that there's a lot of folks who listen to this podcast to our steeped
[00:03:27] in the art world as you are.
[00:03:28] But I like the notion of, you know, making those barriers between regular person, regular
[00:03:37] Jane and the art world, making those more porous.
[00:03:43] And you know, making people feel welcome as I feel more welcome, the more I know about
[00:03:49] the place and, you know, kind of the internet.
[00:03:52] So what I want to say here is, yes, you were outside of the art world, but you already
[00:03:59] had something that made you go to exhibitions and you have that ability to not
[00:04:07] only experience them, but also be able to connect them, to real feelings, real experiences.
[00:04:18] So you're not just coming as a complete sort of no entity that knows nothing feels
[00:04:28] nothing, new nothing.
[00:04:30] And you know, so you already had, I mean, that's why I invited you to do this.
[00:04:34] There's already some, you had a foot in there, like some.
[00:04:38] Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:04:39] There was, there was already, you know, a relationship and a fascination built for sure,
[00:04:45] you know, of going to exhibitions.
[00:04:48] But I mean, I guess so, follow question to you, Joanna.
[00:04:51] Is why did you want to start this podcast?
[00:04:53] And why do you think it would be a good fit for us?
[00:04:56] Yes.
[00:04:57] So I didn't remember about the text message, now that I'm thinking about it was like, wow,
[00:05:01] I texted her, rather than calling her and saying, listen, I have an idea.
[00:05:07] And please give me five minutes to convince you.
[00:05:10] So about the podcast, I did think about audiences and first of all, I thought about myself
[00:05:15] as audience, Emily, by the way.
[00:05:18] So I was going to say, I listened to podcasts a lot and I realized the other day that you
[00:05:24] were the person who introduced me to podcasts.
[00:05:26] What?
[00:05:26] So with the way comes around goes around.
[00:05:29] Yes.
[00:05:30] Bad jibbona.
[00:05:31] What goes around comes around, bad jibbona.
[00:05:35] I remember you introducing me to this American life and in my brain going like podcasts.
[00:05:43] What the heck is that?
[00:05:44] Yeah, we met in 2012, right?
[00:05:48] So podcasts were kind of, yeah, you know, it was, I mean, this American life, obviously
[00:05:52] was a radio show that just turned into a podcast.
[00:05:55] But yeah, they were pretty kind of new than you were for sure.
[00:06:00] They weren't the thing there now.
[00:06:02] Well, they were for me.
[00:06:03] I can tell you that.
[00:06:04] And ever since then, I listened to podcasts religiously.
[00:06:07] I love them.
[00:06:09] And I listened to podcasts about absolutely everything.
[00:06:12] It really is a lesson to listen to people talk about what they're passionate about.
[00:06:16] And then I realized that I didn't listen to a lot of podcasts about art and I felt deeply ashamed.
[00:06:21] So I looked for podcasts about art, started listening to them and most of them are interviews with artists.
[00:06:30] And some artists are incredible at talking about their craft.
[00:06:33] They're just inspiring.
[00:06:35] Others not so much.
[00:06:37] And also the frame of the interviews is always so serious that sometimes you kind of think,
[00:06:43] okay, I'm going for a run.
[00:06:46] I never go for runs, but you know, like a hypothetical run that I will never go to.
[00:06:50] But like I'm going for a run, I need to listen to something you are not going to listen to someone talking about post structuralism.
[00:06:57] To an artist pretending to understand what they mean about.
[00:07:01] So I just thought there is nothing out there apart from very few ones.
[00:07:07] There's the great women podcast, great women artists spotcards by Katie Hassel.
[00:07:13] There's Ben Luke who's an amazing interviewer.
[00:07:17] But still always with the same thing if an interview,
[00:07:21] with said person who makes the work.
[00:07:23] And I thought that's a problem with contemporary art and because I work in contemporary art.
[00:07:28] That's the problem we make it so inaccessible.
[00:07:32] We make it so that you have to feel that you understand.
[00:07:36] It's like you're doing an exam and a lot of people who don't work in the art will tell me,
[00:07:41] oh, you know, oh, you working in contemporary art.
[00:07:43] You know, I don't know anything about contemporary art.
[00:07:45] I do appreciate you working, you know, and I'm like, god damn.
[00:07:49] What are we doing?
[00:07:50] Then we are not re-rendering the most amazing of things which is art.
[00:07:56] So inaccessible to people.
[00:07:58] And so I wanted to work on a podcast with someone who would break me down from my theoretical natural state.
[00:08:05] The idea was really to have the same thing you have in other areas of art and creativity,
[00:08:11] which is just two people talking about the art itself.
[00:08:16] Rather than kind of getting the same concept you have in a university,
[00:08:24] in magazines of the specialty because when you go to your doctor,
[00:08:29] your doctor doesn't explain what's wrong with you in medical terms that they would use with their colleagues.
[00:08:35] They dumb it down for you, but not in a stupid way, in a human way that you can understand
[00:08:42] and that you can connect to.
[00:08:45] And we don't do that in contemporary art often enough.
[00:08:48] So that's why I wanted to do this.
[00:08:50] And I have to say putting humility aside, I think we're the only format or one of the only formats
[00:08:56] that does that, that just talks about whipp passion with openness,
[00:09:02] the experience of being in the presence of a not work and just having the most amazing conversations
[00:09:08] amounted and having the pleasure to give time to it, and also to be mindful of the fact that
[00:09:14] you're sharing it with other people and you have to be understandable and you have to connect to people.
[00:09:21] So yeah, that's what I wanted, sorry, I feel like I'm lecturing you.
[00:09:25] It's not really at all.
[00:09:26] I'm looking at you like really passionately.
[00:09:28] But I'm lecturing myself and my own field basically.
[00:09:32] Pretty girl.
[00:09:33] So that's yeah.
[00:09:34] I couldn't agree more, I mean I think that is someone who's spent a lot of time with doctors lately.
[00:09:42] They wish they did.
[00:09:43] I wish they did speak in more colloquial terms, but yeah, I think that's absolutely true,
[00:09:49] and it's like there is just that experience of being in an exhibition that is so unique
[00:09:57] and so unlike anything else.
[00:10:00] And often people go their alone, you know, and it's like to have a place
[00:10:05] to talk about what that experience is like as much as you can.
[00:10:10] I mean, you know, talking about the experience of art is a bit like maybe dancing about architecture or
[00:10:16] something.
[00:10:17] Like I think your, you know, instincts about going into art through this niche of exhibitions
[00:10:26] and looking at it through that, that being the portal to this wider thing is
[00:10:34] yeah, it's really exciting.
[00:10:36] And I hope it, I hope it brings people in and makes them feel like they can connect with
[00:10:41] art in a way that they might not have otherwise.
[00:10:44] Nothing gives them more joy than to see people listening to the podcast all over the world
[00:10:49] because the exhibition really isn't excuse.
[00:10:52] And we make huge efforts in describing the exhibitions because we realize that most people
[00:10:57] listen won't experience those exhibitions.
[00:11:01] So it really is an excuse to kind of dig into the work of an artist.
[00:11:05] I have a question for you, haven't I?
[00:11:06] Then the one.
[00:11:08] So maybe because you're not suited to the art world, I'm really curious,
[00:11:13] but you went to see exhibitions before.
[00:11:15] Has any of the experiences we talked about?
[00:11:19] Have an impact on your life?
[00:11:22] No, being quite a casual exhibition go or previously and now it being a much more regular diet
[00:11:28] of exhibitions and exhibitions that I would have never gone to.
[00:11:33] That you know, artists I would have never sought out and galleries I would have never sought out before.
[00:11:39] I think one thing that that I've really noticed in the hiatus since we last met for the podcast
[00:11:46] is how much I've missed it.
[00:11:49] There is the sense of discovery that they bring and the sense of
[00:11:56] there's something about being in a place with other people regarding the same thing.
[00:12:04] You know, you're not having the same experience but there is something about
[00:12:09] being in a place where people are regarding things and maybe reflecting on things or experiencing
[00:12:15] things in a way that you might not be and that's so palpable.
[00:12:20] I don't know that I consider that quite as deeply or as much previous to the podcast
[00:12:28] and kind of acknowledging how enriching that is.
[00:12:31] There's this internal processing thing that's happening in a public place with other people.
[00:12:38] You know, I mean at Yoko, oh no, it's like, oh my gosh, is somebody on the floor?
[00:12:42] They're in a bag creating their own art.
[00:12:45] You know, it's like how cool is that?
[00:12:48] You know, it's just something you can't get anywhere else.
[00:12:52] I mean, I remember the feeling I got when I walked into Zaynab Salas show at
[00:12:59] Tapridden and it was like, yeah, overcome with calm I became.
[00:13:05] I think the second observation about art that I don't think I really fully appreciated before
[00:13:12] doing the podcast is it's healing nature.
[00:13:18] So earlier on the year, a friend of mine was splitting from their spouse
[00:13:24] and when they told me the news, they were like, okay well let's meet at the wall
[00:13:31] as kind of collection. There's painting there that they were like this just really speaks to me
[00:13:39] and I just want to go see it right now because I'm in a vulnerable way.
[00:13:44] Yes. I think for me, especially contemporary art gets couched in a very cerebral place
[00:13:52] and you know, I think that the experience of going to so many
[00:13:59] exhibitions in a row has really opened up the much more emotional landscape of them for me
[00:14:06] and I think I appreciate that a lot more than I used to. I mean, when I was a more casual gore,
[00:14:12] I think that I usually left and I mean, I still do to a certain degree,
[00:14:16] left with a head full of ideas but I think now I'm leaving exhibitions with a lot more to feel
[00:14:25] about if that makes sense. Do you remember this Ethan Hawk TED Talk that he did during COVID?
[00:14:31] I liked it so not a particularly new idea but Ethan Hawk had this TED Talk a few years ago
[00:14:37] about creativity and you know, it says that like the society pushed back against art is like
[00:14:44] oh what's the point? Like what are you going to do with that? Oh well it's just the
[00:14:48] Agnes Martin's and minds on a thing and like what's the point? And you know people people who can
[00:14:56] dismissive of art can say things like that until a loved one dies or they have helped scare or a
[00:15:03] big professional setback or something like that and then they reach for that song or that poem
[00:15:09] or you know that piece in the Wallace collection. Exactly yeah and and then it's those times
[00:15:17] when we are most vulnerable and I know that way that we seek it out and this idea of healing in art
[00:15:25] has kind of been out on my mind because of the famous magazine also and book called on freedom
[00:15:31] that I keep yapping about and that I've read a few times now. I mean there's four texts in it
[00:15:39] and the first one it's about the notion of freedom and the first one is freedom and art
[00:15:44] and it's a really really interesting text and quite thought provoking and she does say that you know
[00:15:51] the punk upset the bourgeoisie kind of thing in art has been replaced by this notion of healing
[00:15:57] and she quotes Helen Moll's worth who's done the death of an artist podcast and he's a curator
[00:16:04] as having written that in art forum in 2016 I think. A lot of artists listen to the podcast and
[00:16:10] what oppression put on an artist's creativity you know to have that healing power
[00:16:17] and I find myself a bit with Maggie Nelson although I'm completely with this I'm working with a lot
[00:16:24] of artists who are working with the notions of care and notions of healing and notions of balancing
[00:16:30] out the body and finding out how to be a body rather than being in a body which I there's a
[00:16:38] big difference. I think a lot of artists are working on it but decided healing and just going to art
[00:16:43] when you're feeling bad the child in me goes like you know because I always drew so much pleasure
[00:16:51] from art and so much joy and so much hope of things not just being what I was seeing them to be
[00:17:00] like I remember when I was a child in Lisbon and going to the museum and reading just thinking
[00:17:06] okay I'm so relieved the world is not just what's in front of me which is really boring it's
[00:17:12] boring I bought and I know there's other possibilities out there so I think there's that as well
[00:17:21] there's that of going to the museums and just thinking you can live in yellow and yellow is a really
[00:17:30] I remember us talking about blue with Zane Absaler and just thinking I never thought about blue so much
[00:17:37] and colors and that made me so happy and that made me so joyful and I stayed in that
[00:17:43] thing for a while because you kind of bring me into that because you also make bring me into the
[00:17:51] feelings more than to the or connecting feelings with thoughts and making them more enjoyable and full
[00:17:59] and and complex you know so yeah I mean there's also that but I do understand I saw that
[00:18:06] Ethan Hawke thing on Instagram and I was just like thank you Ethan Hawke thank you because I saw these
[00:18:13] collectors in DC and they only collect conceptual art so they have like the most cold
[00:18:24] rigid I mean I'm not saying that this is not my opinion this is what their friends tell them they're like you
[00:18:29] have you know stuff with words on them on the walls and you know and then photos and text and
[00:18:37] lines and you know like the coldest of color that they this mathematical coldness of conceptual
[00:18:44] and they have they love on color and on color has these postcards where they just sent
[00:18:55] postcards to people or rights or do drawings and paintings with dates on them and the postcards
[00:19:02] usually say I there's a date and it says I'm still alive or I'm alive and so the the friends of
[00:19:10] this couple there's it's a couple um you started by collecting like the most political expression
[00:19:17] is supposed to expressness German art and went completely the way they were telling me that they
[00:19:24] had a horrible train accident a few years back um yeah and they were already elderly at the time
[00:19:32] they're quite they're quite I think they're in their 80s now and so she was okay she was hurt but
[00:19:40] he was in a very bad state in hospital and one day one of the friends was talking to her
[00:19:48] asking how he was doing and she was saying you know we don't know he's not out of the wood's yet
[00:19:53] and they looked at her and were like do you know what you know that on color of pieces you have
[00:20:00] I get them now I get them the the time the dates the marking of being here this feeling of being
[00:20:08] and the possibility of losing our friends I yeah I get it even if there is you know just that
[00:20:16] fleeting moment of your deepest darkest time and you see a piece of art that moves you and
[00:20:26] consoles you if that's the only time you've ever seen art to me it's like wow brilliant amazing
[00:20:33] you've been going to exhibitions professionally for many many moons you know as a curator
[00:20:43] as things that you've done yourself that you are reviewing or interviewing artists or what have
[00:20:49] you I mean is there anything different about the way that you experience exhibitions for the podcast
[00:20:56] than how you have experienced them in other professional guys that was trying to see if you'd
[00:21:03] have a question this is it that's difficult one yes no it's just shameful when I'm going to say
[00:21:11] it's just I have to admit it ever since we started the podcast I have to say that I have a feeling
[00:21:20] of reuniting with the the excitement and the joy and the depth of experience that I did before
[00:21:29] I started working at contemporary art and it's that old thing isn't it when you work in the
[00:21:36] field that you love that job may kill the love you have for that field one of the reasons why
[00:21:42] I wanted to talk about is that I travel a lot for work and I spend a lot of time away from London
[00:21:48] and I realized that I was missing a lot of shows because when I would come back to London I'd be like
[00:21:56] no this is home I'm very I'm an introvert I love being at home I have to write quite a lot so
[00:22:03] you know who's a good excuse not to leave the house to be with kids and to be you know with family
[00:22:09] and just being a cozy nice place and not be challenged again by those artists and so I realized
[00:22:16] that I wasn't going I was missing a lot of shows in London and also when I went there I was running
[00:22:22] and it would be like okay done this did that you know and didn't even look up the artists and
[00:22:28] I was falling prey to what I was saying about in the beginning which is that when you read a book
[00:22:34] you're like oh he was this Miranda July oh I'm gonna look her up and oh she lives in California
[00:22:40] oh she's so whatever a year old and she's in her 50s or whatever any kind of like oh I'm going
[00:22:47] to send to an interview of hers and I wouldn't do that in my own field I'd be like no you
[00:22:53] know I know more or less okay and I jury not this in their 30s okay I see more or less but no you
[00:22:59] don't you know nothing you absolutely you always have to I now what I do even when I'm talking
[00:23:05] about Agnes Martin I will always stop from the beginning again and I did that in the beginning
[00:23:12] and now with the podcast I have that mindfulness of no you don't know Agnes Martin
[00:23:20] but I I do I read a lot of books about her or whatever Iography but no I don't go back to the
[00:23:26] beginning dig deep into what interested you in that sense and we go back and reread or rewatch or
[00:23:35] re look again because you think you know but you don't because art's not born knowing it's about
[00:23:41] where you're at in your life I mean there's books I read to the lighthouse regularly I love Virginia
[00:23:47] Wolf is one of my you know big discoveries when I was a kid and I reread that all the time
[00:23:53] and at the beginning I would identify with the young painter and now I'm with the mother the angel
[00:24:00] of the house that he supposedly have to kill according to Virginia Wolf the main character the wife
[00:24:07] and you know you always have to go back that's the beauty of art it keeps changing because
[00:24:13] you keep changing and you have to bring that into the work as a curator and I do it with my artists
[00:24:20] and I do it with my people and my my shows and my texts but I have to say I have to say I love
[00:24:27] I didn't know what you were going to say you know just kind of coming at it from a different angle
[00:24:34] revives that passion and love and interest and and I love that the podcast is doing
[00:24:40] that for you and I think that's such a great you know kind of thing to remind yourself of you know
[00:24:47] about things that you are passionate about it's like there are hidden depths or there are
[00:24:53] you know there's ways of seeing it that will help revive that you know that thing that got you into
[00:25:01] the first place is there an episode that surprised you or that you weren't expecting to do what it did
[00:25:09] to you or an exhibition that you were expecting to feel a certain way about and that ended up being
[00:25:16] completely different to what your expectations were so many I mean we're to start really I mean
[00:25:26] I mean you know certainly I'm Marina Abram of it as I was going to divide the ticket suddenly
[00:25:30] wondering kind of she's going to be she's like a be here is she like she's a performance artist
[00:25:35] like this is a retrospective of her first death like how's this going to work and not considering
[00:25:39] that at all until the moment I got there it's just looking thinking about that show that was such a great
[00:25:46] show wasn't it I mean just the just great amount of work she's done and just the
[00:25:58] creation of it I mean I just think they did such a fantastic job of making something a
[00:26:06] femoral very present and alive in that space I mean hats off are you know I mean you know my normal
[00:26:16] go to is like okay I've got to see this exhibition life is very full and busy you know I've
[00:26:23] going to give myself 45 minutes or whatever maybe I'm here over lunch or something and
[00:26:31] what I what I'm always surprised by is how once you're in it for me anyway it's usually quite
[00:26:39] transcendent it's like that feeling that heridness will melt away yeah yeah yeah I think what surprised
[00:26:49] me the most was the feeling that I always had the baguette really but that was more kind of like a
[00:26:59] theoretical or an ethical stance of unreliability of liking or disliking something and the
[00:27:10] because we have to put ourselves in the research mode and trying to do a sort of an
[00:27:19] expose about the artists that we talk about it always brings me to a point where I'm like
[00:27:28] I'm making myself available for this work and if I don't connect to it I make a net later
[00:27:37] but I do have a sense of where these people are coming from and the work that is being made is there
[00:27:48] in a genuine effort to connect to themselves and to the audience it has surprised me how much I
[00:27:57] enjoy being open and even sometimes going against what I very naturally and viscerally
[00:28:08] feel when I visit an exhibition I studied art criticism I read all the
[00:28:13] cream and green birds and the lucid parts and all of those art critics and how art criticism was about
[00:28:20] how this artist has it or doesn't how they understood his ideas or they didn't how they failed
[00:28:27] miserably like you know when gusts and started doing yeah he's kind of like comics oriented imagery
[00:28:34] and however one's like he's lost the plot you know and now that's why healing is coming into place
[00:28:42] because we know that art is not it's not marketing it's not a sort of competition to see the
[00:28:52] artist that gets it better because whatever the it is is up for grabs who knows what art is doing you know
[00:29:01] who knows what it's therefore and who knows why we do it and the reality is there's more and more
[00:29:07] artists and more and more space for art in our society now like we're reconnected to prehistoric
[00:29:14] times where people went into caves and were like yeah let's just do a mammoth you know we don't eat them
[00:29:20] but you know let's just draw them and let's just do some codes some stuff that means something that
[00:29:27] kind of resembles the words we use in our mouths and let's just like let go and do stuff in
[00:29:35] these on these walls and these you know tablets that we're making of clay and then you know and
[00:29:41] and these these vases are looks so empty let's just put some intense into them and you know
[00:29:46] and we're making space for that and that's really amazing and who am I to just go and say
[00:29:53] that's crap yeah it's bullshit unless i see i think there does always you know can never be
[00:30:02] always something unless i see that there is a trend that i feel it's completely empty but i
[00:30:11] don't think we would do in that episode on one of those exhibitions i don't know be very helpful because
[00:30:16] there's a lot of trendiness you know supported by a market and you know that's and i don't
[00:30:23] I'm not very interested in going in there and also who am I again to say maybe one of those artists
[00:30:29] I find is it responding to a certain trend may just grow and become like this amazing
[00:30:37] creative force i mean who knows you know yeah so yeah i think that's that was the biggest
[00:30:44] surprise you know i remember noticing that about you very early on when we would see
[00:30:48] are it was just your just just your openness to be like look this is there art let's not think
[00:30:54] about it in terms of good or bad or what they should have done or the silly or not silly or
[00:30:59] whatever but you know just the fact that you just we're looking at it objectively and
[00:31:09] subjectively but not in a way that was there to tear it down or remember some of the early
[00:31:17] times of going to galleries and just like hey i'm going here to this thing you want to come and
[00:31:23] come and not know anything about and just be you know in my sort of you know kind of
[00:31:29] ledite you know sort of new to art way I'd be like I don't know how you get this new would
[00:31:35] you know you'd be like well this is what they were doing and this is why it was new at the time
[00:31:39] and that that and that way that you have of being with art i think it's really special because
[00:31:47] it's not the binary good bad this that but is is part of what i think you know certainly brought
[00:31:54] me in deeper i don't really care about technique i i didn't find that's very important you know
[00:32:02] i think we were that was one of the big problems with classicism and you know and also why
[00:32:12] some artists were completely discarded you know at some point what it shall be was horrible you
[00:32:16] could not look at but to tell you or you could not look at shagal or you could not you know and
[00:32:21] then suddenly it's like oh there's amazing art you know because whatever the parameters were for a
[00:32:28] good technique or a bad technique change and shifted and that's not what moves you because the
[00:32:33] thing is when you look at children's drawings they're perfect always like you could have a museum
[00:32:39] of every family's children's drawings and it would just fill your heart with joy i mean it's just
[00:32:45] amazing and perfect and they don't have any particular i mean they have their own techniques they
[00:32:52] develop their own idiosyncrasies and they are taught at school like to hold a pencil like this or
[00:32:57] taught but then you know they develop their own way of doing things and and i think that's the
[00:33:04] thing if you get to that place i don't care if your technique is not good it may you can sense
[00:33:10] that there's a genuine intentionality there's a presence there and that's what counts for me i really
[00:33:16] you know some people are because it was such good i really that does not speak to me at all i don't care
[00:33:24] about it it's not it's not what draws me to and not work for sure there is knowledge though there is skill
[00:33:32] but i think that that the artist develops their own skill one of the other things that i have loved
[00:33:38] and has surprised me about this podcast is just the listeners i mean they are coming in
[00:33:46] from all over you can see that the moment a new episode drops it would be like
[00:33:54] people in South Korea have picked it up and it's you know that that has just been such a joy to see
[00:34:01] or you know all over southeast Asia and Europe and kind of i don't know i guess
[00:34:06] areas i might not have expected to be you know kind of natural listeners and the questions that
[00:34:15] you put on instagram and the answers that we get have been such a joy and have
[00:34:21] led to so many discoveries of my own of you know exhibitions or artists that you know i haven't
[00:34:29] that are you know just been great to be exposed to so i love the fact that there's
[00:34:37] so many ideas and so much energy coming in from the listeners that's been great so this this first
[00:34:42] episode is to just for you to get re-acquainted with us or maybe to get to know was for the first time
[00:34:49] maybe your first listener and you just have a conversation between two people about art
[00:34:57] from here on during the second season we will be doing episodes about exhibitions in London and
[00:35:03] boy are there exhibitions in London for you to look forward to so if you can't make it to London
[00:35:10] we will we're here for you if you can we'll be doing some episodes of out these amazing shows
[00:35:17] so the first one is going to be Tracy M in at wide cube so that's the first episode we have
[00:35:24] after this one prepared the second or the third one i think is going to be the second is
[00:35:32] another feature of the curve space at the barbican with Pamela for Timo's some stream
[00:35:39] and finally so we have lined up three episodes so if you have suggestions for the following ones
[00:35:45] by all means please reach we challenge to us the third one that will be nice i mean we we'd love to
[00:35:53] and the third one is going to be a boogie a mic Kelly at the tate take modern so three
[00:36:01] episodes lined up that you can look forward to and we look forward to sharing them with you
[00:36:08] absolutely this is a wrap thank you so much thank you Emily yeah this has been great yeah
[00:36:15] and thank you i mean it's just been you know it's been really nice to look back at the first season
[00:36:20] and think about the terrain that we have choverised in the art world in London
[00:36:25] and just for me personally and just my own relationship with art and you know the relationship
[00:36:31] with the listeners and hearing you know what they see and what they feel and what they hear
[00:36:38] and what they're interested in and it's just been such a joy so yeah thank you thank you Emily
[00:36:44] and we'll see you very very very soon take care bye bye bye