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I'm Joanna Pierre Nevis, your host, and this is exhibitionist
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this. I'm an independent writer and
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curator with a wide-ranging 2 decades career in contemporary
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art, from commercial galleries to art fairs, from research to
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curating, from Lisbon to London through Paris.
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But when I'm asked what I do outside the out world, the
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inevitable reaction is, oh, I don't know anything about
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contemporary art. Ouch.
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So call it a midlife crisis, call it arrogance, but I gave
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myself the task of trying to fill that gap with Co host
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conversation Episodes centered around a genuine exchange of
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thoughts, feelings and precious context around solo exhibitions,
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interviews and special episodes based on a particular topic to
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keep you alert and on your toes. If you want to read further into
00:01:07
some of the topics discussed in the episodes and more, you can
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also find me on Sub Stack under my name, Joanna Pyroneves.
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All right, so we're talking about the Ed Atkins exhibition
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at Tate Britain. Today.
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The Tate has several buildings, so there's Tate Liverpool,
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there's Tate St. Ives, which is a marvel of
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modernist architecture in Cornwall.
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And then in London you have two Tates.
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So you have Tate Modern, which is dedicated to contemporary
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international arts and then you have Tate Britain, which is
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modern and contemporary arts for artists based in Britain or
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British. So that's where we're headed
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today. And today I have a newcomer, a
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new Co host. He is my favorite type of Co
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host because he is an exhibition goer, but he does not work in
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the contemporary art field. So Nick Taylor is here with me.
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He's an architect. He did study Fine Arts.
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He's he's cheating a little bit, but he's now an architect in
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West London. So if you're nearby and if you
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need an architect, he's your person.
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So Nick, how, how are you feeling about this?
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I'm excited, I'm great, I'm happy to be here.
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You make me sound like a Ghostbuster.
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Why? If you need if you need someone
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to help. Who are you going to call?
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I seem to remember you telling me that it's your favorite Tate
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and even your favorite Museum in London.
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Yes, it's definitely my favorite Tate.
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Whether or not it's my favorite Museum in London is slightly
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because you have, do you classify the Barbican as as a
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museum? There's a museum in the
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Barbican, So yeah, it probably falls short on the museum.
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But in the rankings of tape buildings, the the tape Britain
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is by far my favorite. Yeah.
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But being an architect, that sounds weird to me because I
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would think that you would choose Tape Modern as opposed to
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Tape Britain, which is kind of this imperialistic old building,
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although it has been renovated in 2013.
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So why? Why is it so special to you?
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Yeah. It's a good question.
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So if you were, if you were speaking purely from an
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architectural point of view, if you were to show me the drawings
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or the models or the renders and describe the project from a as a
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as a as a project, then the tape modern is by far the best
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building of the lot, I think. And OK, so I'm going to do more
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on masters and almost created a new genre of art gallery with
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the Tate, with the Tate Modern. It was this amazing thing on the
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on the South Bank in London. But being a Londoner, my
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experience is personal. And I started going to the Tate
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Britain before the Tate Modern was even there.
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And so my connection to that building is deeply personal.
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And it was the Tate Britain was my was my joy space that I would
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go to when I needed time alone, time to reflect, time to expand
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my mind. I have, I have many personal
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memories of going to this building and leaving a better,
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happier person. So for that reason, purely
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romantic it is. It's my favorite.
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But then, having said that, it's also a great building.
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It is. It's a great.
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And then I think the the dialogue between the traditional
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building and the new architecture is so each time I
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go there, I find it so successful.
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It's one of those successful exercises, I think in
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architecture. I mean, I don't know if you, I
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mean from an architectural point of view, do you agree with that?
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Absolutely. Yeah.
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The, the, yeah, absolutely. When you have a, when you have a
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building that's so rich in heritage and, and, and obviously
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of its era and its time and it's such a stand out building in
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itself. I can't imagine the pressure as
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an architect, you would have to then create something new onto
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that. And and what they've achieved is
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just, is amazing. By the way, you know, the Tate
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is 25 years old, So the Tate Modern, do you remember because
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I wasn't here, Do you remember as a Londoner the Tate kind of,
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you know, the decision to establish it, the the building
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or building it and then the inauguration.
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Do you have any memories of that?
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No, you, you. You would have been 18 or 19.
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Yeah, I would have been in my late teens and and I would have
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been a typical teenage chasing silly things and just not
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concentrating. On not aware on things.
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Coming. Up so say who in?
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Fact. The Tate, the Tate Modern kind
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of just landed. And for me it was, I wasn't even
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aware of it being under construction.
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And I think I think it opened when I was probably in my first
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year at architecture school. So it was this spaceship that
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just landed in London. And even at that stage, you
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know, I was incredibly naive and didn't know anything.
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So who's it designed by Herzog and who Herzog?
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And, you know, it was a complete education for me at that point.
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Yeah. And of course, because it was
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such a big deal, we then went, visited, studied it had a look
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and. And.
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Yeah. And so I kind of I grew into
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architecture as the tape modern was emerging on the on the
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consciousness of of everyone who visited.
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So it's kind of I think maybe our paths are quite are quite
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similar in that sense. Shall I go and introduce Ed
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Atkins to you and to our listeners?
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So Ed Atkins is a British artist who is a child of the 80s, much
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like yourself, Nick, and he came of age in the 90s.
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He now lives in Copenhagen with his partner and his two
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children. But he grew up in a small
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village near Oxford called Stones Field.
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He's a really great writer. I'm reading his book Flowers, so
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his last book. He talks a little bit about his
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childhood, also his compulsions, all that glitches in his body.
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But one of the things that kind of stuck with me while I was
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researching him was that he would sit at the top of the
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stairs when his parents left home.
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He would itemize the number of ways in which they they could
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die and that he could lose them. You know, by all accounts, an an
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anxious kid whose parents were quite, well, not your regular
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parents. So his mum was an arts teacher,
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his dad was a graphic designer. And he, he has a sense of a
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certain sadness coming from them because his dad kept insisting
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that you should follow your vocation, that you should always
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do what you like for work. You, you should earn your money
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and your life through the things that you like doing.
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Because they were both artistic and they both sacrificed their
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work in order to have a steady job.
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He talks about his career as being a way for his parents also
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to make it to take Britain, let's say.
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And so his education was very steeped in arts, in arts of all
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kinds. So apparently they would watch
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lots of great films that wouldn't be mainstream films
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particularly for example, Verner Herdog films.
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His mom played the piano really beautifully.
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His dad loved jazz. And in 2009 he was working with
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Christian Markley. And so Christian Markley is an
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artist who was then producing a Seminole work called The Clock,
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which was a 24 hour film that was in real time, so 24 hours.
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And the time was counted in the film through found footage of
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clocks in films. So what's Ed Atkins was doing
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was trying to find footage of clocks in everywhere.
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And so he says that at a certain point he would he he exhausted
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everything of the culture around us and he went into Eastern
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European films, Russian films. So he watched everything and
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that was really crucial in his work.
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Another thing that happened was that he was asked to produce a
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video and while he was still at Slate 2009, and he was a bit
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tentative about it. He doesn't know why he agreed to
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it. And when he started looking at
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images and editing, he found the deepest of pleasures like he
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found home. And that was a real pivotal
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experience for him. And he still sees himself as an
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editor in some ways across all his work.
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Then another thing happened which was also more on the
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existential side of things. And the really sad event which
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is that he lost his dad to cancer.
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And at the same time he was producing work.
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He was very prolific as soon as he finished his MA and in 2011
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he showed his work at Tate Britain, actually in the Art Now
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section. So Tate Britain has a room along
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the other rooms of the permanent collection where young artists
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are invited to do a presentation of their work, to do an
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installation. Then he went on to be, I think,
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writer in residence at the Chisenhill Gallery in London.
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And it was while he was producing the work for that
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particular gallery that he had another experience with
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technology, which was to associate an Xbox Kinect with a
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software from a startup called Face Shift, which was facial
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capture and this motion tracking video device that he used to
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film himself. And while he was filming
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himself, he was being rendered in terms of animation.
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He was really taken by the ability of that those devices to
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capture something of the liveness of a performance
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somehow and at the same time to create a piece and a detached
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video piece that he could show later.
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And in 2014, so really quite young, he had a sort of Seminole
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exhibition because of what he showed there at the Serpentine
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Gallery, a multi screen installation which features for
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the first time an avatar for which he used himself, not as
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the visual, the the final rendering of the character, but
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he used his own body to kind of create that avatar named Dave.
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I've seen that exhibition. And for me that was kind of a
00:12:08
turning point as well, I have to say, because I remember visiting
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it and really intensely disliking it.
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So it's a white dude in a sort of a digital basement.
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He looks a bit like a Skinhead slash troll in Cell, Proto in
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Cell, but at the same time he's so lonely.
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He's smoking, he's drinking, and he's deflate.
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At a certain point the character deflates like a balloon and
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falls on the table. So you kind of feel for that
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character and you're filled was with a sort of contradictory
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paradoxical emotions. And then my mind kept going back
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to it after having visited it, and I realized that I was really
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taken by the exhibition. It was a real shift of kind of
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learning how to look at something new, actually
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something that I've never seen before.
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I don't know if you felt that in the exhibition.
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I find it very effective. There's a connectivity in in his
00:13:13
work that I don't see in other video.
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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's really, it's really
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interesting to hear that back story, having seen the
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exhibition, but not knowing that before going in.
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Because as you're speaking, I'm thinking of the things that I've
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seen in the show. When you're talking about Dave
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and this guy in the basement, immediately I'm thinking of the
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guy who, who is in the apartment in the bed, who, who falls
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through the the floor into this sinkhole.
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But the idea that this guy is low, he's lonely.
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So you, yes, you're drawn into an emotional response where you
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are you're feeling for this person.
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You don't know why he's sad or why he's feeling like this, but
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as you're watching it, you can't help but but get emotionally
00:14:02
involved. And there's also another moment
00:14:06
in his work, which is really important.
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It's a film called Refuse or Refuse both work, and it's done
00:14:14
on purpose. And it's the first time that he
00:14:17
uses Unreal Engine. So Unreal Engine is a 3D
00:14:23
computer graphics game engine. It was developed by Epic Games
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and it was first used in 1998, which is weird.
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I was kind of surprised to know this.
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For the purpose of the exhibition, I would say that
00:14:40
what I kind of can present as being the main reference points
00:14:47
for him would be the editing aspect.
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And I would venture this and I, I'm interested in knowing what
00:14:55
you think. I think the edition part is
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really important. And I see the exhibition as as
00:15:01
an edition, as an edited form of creating an experience for a
00:15:08
viewer, a spectator. Then there's the liveness
00:15:11
aspect. So that experience he had with
00:15:14
the Xbox and the the facial motion capture rendering in
00:15:20
animation of a live moment and the fact that he chooses gaming
00:15:26
as opposed to film. So he really chooses a specific
00:15:32
medium that for him is interesting not only because of
00:15:34
the liveness aspect of it. So the interaction with what
00:15:38
you're creating as a creative but also as a gamer, you have a
00:15:42
duration to it, which means that you start a game, there's a real
00:15:47
time duration, something happens that is reflected on the image.
00:15:52
So you have an impact on the image, but also it ends and you
00:15:56
can start over. But when you start over, it's
00:16:00
never the same experience. I went to Take Modern and you
00:16:04
know, realized when I was there that it was at Take Britain.
00:16:07
So I had to go 2 times and it was interesting because it is
00:16:11
true that something's change as you cross, as you go through the
00:16:16
exhibition. And then to end on something a
00:16:19
bit different is the reference and the interest he had in
00:16:25
experimental theatre. So he he did drama at school.
00:16:29
So there's this whole line of a specific kind of experimental
00:16:33
theatre across the end of the 19th century and the 20th
00:16:37
century with Alfred Jarry who created Yubu, King Yubuhua.
00:16:42
He was really considered a pioneer even for Dada
00:16:45
surrealism. And then there's Anton Artur
00:16:48
with the Theatre of cruelty. So notion of theatre as not
00:16:52
having to be based on text and and being based on the presence
00:16:56
and the interaction between what's going on on the stage and
00:17:00
the spectators. And then you have The Theatre of
00:17:03
the Absurd with Samuel Beckett, who is very well known with his
00:17:07
piece Breath, which was based on on, On the Breath on Breathing,
00:17:12
but also Luigi P Randello with his famous play called 6
00:17:18
Characters in Search of an Author, and also Beckett.
00:17:21
So you always have this idea of absence in the theater of the
00:17:25
absurd. So Godot is not coming in
00:17:28
waiting for Godot in Pirandello, characters slash actors are
00:17:32
waiting for the the author who doesn't materialize.
00:17:35
And there's always this idea of boredom and and waiting, but
00:17:39
also this idea of absence. And Ed Atkins talks a lot about
00:17:43
loss, which is obviously connected to things and events
00:17:46
in his life, but also as a spectator.
00:17:49
You agree to look at something, but you're losing an aspect of
00:17:53
it. So if you're watching film, you
00:17:55
lose the three dimensionality of it.
00:17:57
If you're watching theater, you lose the connection and the
00:18:03
reactivity. When you're looking at a person
00:18:06
who's talking to you, you can't talk.
00:18:08
And finally, there's film. I think I will invite you to
00:18:12
lead us into the exhibition. The first space you move into is
00:18:16
immediately, it's a dark room with music.
00:18:21
So it's a nice sensory experience as you're warming up
00:18:24
into this thing. And then you the first
00:18:28
installation is the I don't know what it's called, but it was
00:18:31
the, it was like bedding. It was.
00:18:34
Embroidery. That's cool, I think.
00:18:36
Material with. Yes.
00:18:37
With the words very, very, very, very small.
00:18:43
So did you read that those were the writings of his dad's?
00:18:47
Yeah. Sick Diary.
00:18:50
And I was, I admit I was acutely aware that there is a 2 hour
00:18:58
film at the end of this where I will have to listen or have to.
00:19:03
I will listen to this diary being read and.
00:19:07
So how so the thing How did you know that there was that film at
00:19:11
the end? Because when because I'm not a
00:19:14
member of Take Britain, I have to, I have to buy the ticket.
00:19:17
And when you're, when you're on the website buying the ticket,
00:19:19
it has show times for that film. I had to plan my visit to the
00:19:25
exhibition knowing that OK, there are three show times I
00:19:29
want to get there for one of them.
00:19:30
And so working backwards, what time do I need to arrive?
00:19:34
So it's a completely different way of going to see an art.
00:19:39
Show where absolutely I was an innocent bliss because I have
00:19:43
the the tape membership card. They scanned the card, didn't
00:19:47
say anything. But that's a completely
00:19:49
different experience then, because yes, I I was regimented.
00:19:54
Yeah, but we'll we'll talk about it.
00:19:56
We'll talk about it. So we're still on Death Mask 2,
00:20:00
The scent and Kerr of 2010. So this these are his kind of.
00:20:06
Experimentations with digital editing.
00:20:09
Film montage with yeah, so high definition videos basically.
00:20:16
And he's, am I right in saying that he didn't, he doesn't want
00:20:20
to display his work in any kind of chronological order.
00:20:22
Yeah, he said that he doesn't like the idea of a
00:20:25
retrospective, which, you know, kudos to him because I mean,
00:20:28
he's 42 years old, there's no reason.
00:20:30
But it's a survey exhibition. It's a mid career survey
00:20:33
exhibition and that's how we saw it.
00:20:36
And not to bury the lead, he did something.
00:20:40
You can see that he's uncomfortable with the exercise,
00:20:44
but he's very good at deconstructing the rules.
00:20:48
And So what he did is, for example, the text at the
00:20:52
entrance usually is written by someone who is the person who
00:20:58
writes the text for exhibitions. And for those of you who listen
00:21:01
regularly to this podcast, you know I have a bone to pick with
00:21:05
them. They're usually like the
00:21:07
blandest texts. So the text that you read at the
00:21:10
entrance is him, and the first person he's talking to you is.
00:21:12
That a bit of a cheat code because really, so this is him
00:21:17
saying this is my show, this is my work.
00:21:19
This is how I want you to experience it.
00:21:22
This is how you should read my stuff before you go in.
00:21:26
So whereas if if he's not saying that, then he has to do that
00:21:31
work through his, he has to do that through his work.
00:21:35
Is it not a bit of a cheat to say go into my show, look at it
00:21:39
and feel like this or experience it this way?
00:21:43
I read a few interviews before going to the show, and I knew
00:21:45
that he had kind of fumble the game.
00:21:48
So I can tell you what the text says.
00:21:50
So it says my life and my work are inextricable.
00:21:55
How do I convey the liveness that made these works through
00:21:58
the exhibition? Not in some factual,
00:22:01
chronological, biographical way, but through sensations.
00:22:06
I want it. So the more you see, the richer,
00:22:10
more complex, less authored, less gettable things become.
00:22:15
And it's signed at Atkins. And then you have the Tate text,
00:22:20
which I am not going to read. Maybe he used this text to kind
00:22:26
of to, to disrupt the following texts.
00:22:32
I guess in some ways because when you read, yeah, it is
00:22:37
because when you read his text, you don't have a sense of the
00:22:39
exhibition at all. So you go through a corridor and
00:22:44
then you get. 2 with What was the name of this piece?
00:22:50
Hey, Sir. You've got three screens of
00:22:53
different sizes. They each screen is one behind
00:22:56
the other, maybe about 3 or 4 meters away from each other,
00:23:01
increasing in scale as they go back into the back of the room,
00:23:06
which was I don't know why actually I, I didn't, I didn't
00:23:10
even question why that was. I just chose the screen and
00:23:13
watch that one but. But you chose the screen.
00:23:18
Sorry. Interesting you chose the
00:23:20
screen. I did, yeah.
00:23:21
I chose the middle screen because it.
00:23:23
Made like this the. Wall.
00:23:25
Really, because I, for me, was really playful, so I moved
00:23:30
around and I liked to see the repeated image because it's
00:23:35
always the same film. It's not one of those video
00:23:37
installations where you have different videos going on, which
00:23:40
always confuses me. I think, yeah, I just, I was
00:23:42
focused on the content because I knew that there was there was a
00:23:46
narrative in this. So I wanted to understand the
00:23:50
narrative and see, OK, what what's happening, those more
00:23:54
kind of morbid thoughts. It's the fourth pattern of what
00:23:58
would it be like if if a sinkhole just swallowed me up or
00:24:02
swallowed someone up and that was the way you went So when you
00:24:05
were. Talking so the the video, so the
00:24:08
text tells you that this is based on the sort of fizzy there
00:24:13
that he read about that happened in Florida where this person
00:24:18
when it was in a room and his whole house was swallowed by a
00:24:22
sinkhole and the person just disappeared.
00:24:24
So you so you know it's not going to end well, you know this
00:24:27
OK, this is going to be a a thing where eventually someone's
00:24:30
going to get someone's. Going to get, yeah.
00:24:33
It's like, it's like seeing, it's like going into a horror
00:24:36
film. Yes, which is which is really
00:24:38
interesting, right. So I'm sat there and I'm
00:24:40
watching it, but in also in the back of my mind, I'm thinking,
00:24:46
knowing now what I've read about the technology and about playing
00:24:50
with the reality and the I kind of felt like, OK, so this
00:24:57
doesn't look like realism. This is, this is almost, almost
00:25:02
like naturalism. It's it's a man in a room, but
00:25:05
he is alone and he is sad. He is.
00:25:10
You get all of this stuff. And there's a soundtrack as
00:25:12
well, which also pumps these emotions into you.
00:25:15
So you know what? You know what?
00:25:16
What you're watching. And yeah.
00:25:18
And there are close-ups on his face.
00:25:20
So he's singing a song, this this sorrowful song.
00:25:26
And you don't know why he's singing it or who he's singing
00:25:29
it to, but just the emotion gets you.
00:25:32
I forget the name of the cards. The psychologists would.
00:25:35
Famously used Oh, the Rorschach tests you would have
00:25:40
interpreted. Yes, he's holding exactly.
00:25:42
You're seeing a closer. Sit.
00:25:44
That's. It and you can see his thumb so
00:25:46
you know he's holding it, but the card is kind of oscillating.
00:25:52
Yeah, it's it's. It's vibrating.
00:25:54
He's holding it. He's not holding it still and
00:25:57
watching it, I think. Is he jerking off to one of
00:25:59
those cards? Me too.
00:26:01
I thought the same thing. And I thought, how can you show
00:26:06
a person holding a card and immediately you know what that
00:26:11
person's doing? Yeah, in an animation that is.
00:26:15
You hate yourself for thinking it.
00:26:16
You think? Not me, I.
00:26:18
Think, have I got? Is there a problem with me?
00:26:20
Why am I thinking this? And then and then you go and
00:26:23
then it pans out and think, oh, I was right.
00:26:26
That is what's happening. For me it was more confusing
00:26:29
because I don't have the appendage so I was even more.
00:26:36
It's an abstract. Disturbed because I was
00:26:39
thinking, how do I know how subjectively that?
00:26:41
Looks so so you see him at his most intimate and he's naked a
00:26:47
lot of the time he's got his clothes are on the floor and I'm
00:26:50
you're not sure is it daytime? Is it in the middle of the
00:26:52
night? You don't know because the
00:26:53
curtains are pulled and it's all artificial light.
00:26:55
And then it's and. But then it happens.
00:26:59
The sinkhole eats everything. Out and it gets pretty violent,
00:27:03
yeah. It's really, and also not in the
00:27:07
dark anymore. It's very white.
00:27:09
And you see the third room and also there's posters.
00:27:14
There's stuff on the walls. So there's a drawing, there's a
00:27:18
poster that's really weird of a dog placed upward and it says
00:27:24
fear. And then there's a quote by
00:27:26
Helen Keller about fear, which I can't remember, but I took a
00:27:29
picture. It says avoiding danger is no
00:27:32
safer in the long run than outright exposure.
00:27:36
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing, which
00:27:39
sounds in the face of what happened to that poor bloke.
00:27:44
You have a glass wall so you can see into the other room where
00:27:47
there's two beds and the poster of a little kitten holding on to
00:27:53
a branch saying hang in there, which is so cynical.
00:27:59
And then you go into the experimental writing, there's
00:28:04
wood panels that will punctuate this first half of the show.
00:28:08
And it's called Contemporary Art Writing Daily.
00:28:11
And you think, oh, what is this? And so it just says these texts
00:28:15
are by the anonymous writing projects, Contemporary Arts
00:28:18
Writing Daily CAWD. So it's an entity that's
00:28:22
anonymous and and writes on Commission.
00:28:25
And so he commissioned texts to them.
00:28:28
And then he says that he described the videos and the
00:28:31
thinking behind the videos, sent all of these via e-mail and
00:28:35
asked them to write whatever they wanted in response.
00:28:38
And he describes the text by writing.
00:28:42
They sent me a backwash of institutional ventriloquism,
00:28:47
Wikipedia entries, grotesquerie and humor.
00:28:51
The texts are laser burnt into off cut bits of museum trash, so
00:28:56
this is a real commentary on the institution of the museum if
00:29:01
ever there was one. I'm.
00:29:04
Glad you've explained it to me because that went over my head.
00:29:07
Did it? Yeah, it's another layer of the
00:29:12
exhibition for sure. Yeah, because there's.
00:29:15
I loved his, I loved his description of what he got back.
00:29:19
But in terms of what it what it meant in that on that layer, I
00:29:23
didn't get it. So interesting because it really
00:29:26
is a discourse. I mean where he writes about
00:29:29
what he received could also be a description of museum texts.
00:29:32
Basically sort of ventriloquism, Wikipedia entry and then the
00:29:38
text. Like for example, he has a
00:29:42
discarded MDF sort of pulpit on the wall and he and engraved on
00:29:49
it is the European output of manuscripts from 500 to 1500.
00:29:54
And then there's a graph and that's it basically, which I
00:29:57
find so funny. And it has a lot to do also with
00:30:01
technology because the book was kind of this first mass media
00:30:05
technology of communication and information.
00:30:08
And so of course it's silly and it's stupid and no one would
00:30:13
ever put that. But that that's what I would
00:30:15
dream to have as exhibition texts.
00:30:18
And I don't know if I said this on the podcast or not, but I was
00:30:22
really thinking about this and I was thinking I would just love
00:30:25
that one person in the museum really worked with the artists,
00:30:29
found out what the project was and just had a go at it.
00:30:32
I think you you need that kind of Comic Relief when you at the
00:30:39
end of this room, which you clearly did not have and.
00:30:42
Yeah, completely. Yeah, because it's such a
00:30:44
breakaway from anything you you've just seen to go into that
00:30:48
completely different space. Absolutely.
00:30:50
Yeah, yeah. So you didn't read the text, did
00:30:52
you? No, I not really because it
00:30:56
because it was. There are also many.
00:30:58
Yeah, there's just too much. And also going back to the whole
00:31:01
time thing. Oh, you were.
00:31:03
You were in a hurry. Yeah, If I was just wondering
00:31:05
around, maybe I would have read them, but I'm thinking I have
00:31:08
another hour and a half before the film starts or another
00:31:10
night, you know, I need to move on to that maybe.
00:31:13
I'll come back. To this but I never did.
00:31:16
So because for me the experience was very much an editing
00:31:20
experience, as in you go in, you learn about the that's cancer.
00:31:25
So each screen, each lone standing wall is covered with
00:31:30
those embroideries. And so you regularly come across
00:31:35
the the Sick Diaries and then you learn about that.
00:31:38
And when you're in that that piece Hissa, where the person's
00:31:44
going to be kind of eaten up by a sinkhole, you have next to it
00:31:49
2 beds, which were a play that he actually created with someone
00:31:54
else. And I forget the name of the
00:31:56
person. Apologies for that, which were
00:31:59
just two beds with a device under the covers, under the
00:32:03
duvet that make them makes the duvet move as if breathing, but
00:32:09
also as if a very little body was underneath it.
00:32:13
You don't quite know exactly. So for me that was kind of the
00:32:16
the sick bed, the surprise of death.
00:32:20
So I was kind of also doing my own film in my own head.
00:32:25
And it's the same bed or a similar bed to all the one on
00:32:27
the. Screen.
00:32:28
Yes, the white bed. The poster that's on the wall
00:32:30
that you mentioned, but the fear that poster is also in the film
00:32:34
as well on the wall of the guy. Does that maybe make you start
00:32:38
to feel maybe vulnerable in that, well, this guy had no idea
00:32:43
what was going to happen to him, what was going to and, and that
00:32:46
physical connection of the poster in his room that's now in
00:32:49
the room that you're in. Are you potentially in the same
00:32:53
scenario where who knows what's going to happen in 20 minutes
00:32:56
from now for you? Exactly.
00:32:58
Those kinds of fidi ver are those kinds of things that you
00:33:02
do your best to practice your best cognitive dissonance on
00:33:08
because you don't want to think about those in order to keep on
00:33:11
living right? You have to ignore that shit
00:33:15
happens and that you may not be here in 30 seconds.
00:33:20
So that kind of brings it home. Of course, bringing it to your
00:33:25
own space of course includes you because my theory is that we are
00:33:29
the actors of this play. So I mean, one of the
00:33:33
possibilities of experiencing the work, because I think it's a
00:33:36
very laid exhibition, one of the possibilities is you are the
00:33:40
actor in this theatre of the absurd that he's creating.
00:33:43
Because Dave, that character at Serpentine was for me the white
00:33:49
male threatening dude that you don't want to cross paths with
00:33:55
when you're going back home in the dark.
00:33:58
You know, you want to avoid that person.
00:34:01
But it's also a projection of projection of projections
00:34:06
because it was also he was also using his face.
00:34:10
And so there's a a thing of otherness and of, oh, he's
00:34:14
dealing with his own white males, cisgenderness, whatever.
00:34:18
And then here it's no longer that that's we're, we're really
00:34:21
not in that sort of more societal exploration of identity
00:34:29
and, and we're completely in another space for sure.
00:34:32
So we have. So we move on to the other room
00:34:36
that we can see a little bit of and it's really full.
00:34:41
It's so crowded. Yeah, so you're so you're
00:34:44
snaking through this zigzag maze like route and these costumes
00:34:53
there must, there must be, I think 3 layers going three,
00:34:58
yeah, three teams of of closed rails with so many costumes and
00:35:05
right the way up to the ceiling makes you feel tiny.
00:35:08
But you do feel like you're walking through maybe the the
00:35:12
back of an Opera House, these but so many costumes.
00:35:16
And then, but whilst you are, whilst you're walking through
00:35:20
your SO, your gaze is forced into the the path that you're
00:35:24
travelling, and there are screens at the end of each of
00:35:27
these corridors with what looks like a 90s computer game, or
00:35:33
maybe an early 2000s computer game.
00:35:36
Early 2000. That the right?
00:35:37
Is that the right passage? Of time I.
00:35:39
Don't know times, but yeah, but you're confronted with these
00:35:42
computer games effectively, which kind of they look like
00:35:46
they are the the computer games that my older brother-in-law
00:35:51
would have been playing when I was younger.
00:35:53
And they are those kind of fantasy worlds where you have
00:35:57
your own avatar and you and you have friends who are online and
00:36:01
they are also other people in their bedrooms somewhere playing
00:36:04
this game, living another an alternative life.
00:36:07
So it's a, it's a false reality and it's kind of a bit medley
00:36:11
medieval and the costumes that you're walking.
00:36:14
Around are also. Medieval.
00:36:17
And so, yeah, so you're walking around and you're trying to make
00:36:19
sense of of what you're seeing. I didn't watch that many of
00:36:23
those screens for that long. And again, maybe this is my own
00:36:27
anxiety because I've got to get to the end really in the next 45
00:36:32
minutes. So, So yeah, so I kind of, I
00:36:35
tried to understand as much as I could walking through it and
00:36:38
take in what I was confronted with.
00:36:41
But at the same time, again, that clock was ticking.
00:36:44
These films are in a sort of a loop and they so the idea of
00:36:49
these films is that these are characters that are so old men
00:36:54
and children who are crying and they have these viscous tears.
00:37:00
They're disgusting. They look like snot coming out
00:37:03
of their eyes. There's a parallel being made
00:37:05
with theatre. So again, the reference to the
00:37:09
theatre of the absurd where he's always interested in making the
00:37:14
either exploring a technology to its extreme and pushing its
00:37:19
boundaries or the the rules of the game.
00:37:23
And so you're not supposed to be crying viscous tears for ages
00:37:29
and arriving at a a cottage and the fire, but nothing's
00:37:32
happening. But then you have behind those
00:37:35
beds, you have the refuse refuse video, which is cut in half.
00:37:40
So he tells you that actually the whole video is really
00:37:43
interesting. It's the first time he used real
00:37:45
Unreal Engine, which was for him a theatre with our actors.
00:37:52
So there's this floor where things fall constantly.
00:37:57
And the idea was to study how different objects would behave
00:38:03
when hitting the pile of objects or the floor and making sure
00:38:07
that the machine could get them right.
00:38:10
And each time the video plays, it's a different version, so it
00:38:15
keeps changing the order of the objects the way they behave.
00:38:20
It's completely played for. It's very playful.
00:38:23
It's what I would do as a kid, but in real life.
00:38:27
There's an intersection between infancy where you just drop
00:38:31
things. Also babies, and he has small
00:38:34
children. They drop things to, to, to, to
00:38:36
know what happens when you when something's no longer in your
00:38:39
hand. But then there's also the
00:38:43
reference to Marcel Duchamp. You know the peace three
00:38:48
stoppages where he took a meter long thread and then dropped it
00:38:56
from a meter high and then indexed rulers to the shape of
00:39:02
the three fallen pieces of yarn and then presented them in a
00:39:08
little box. So there's this idea of dropping
00:39:10
something. Apparently he fudged that.
00:39:14
So apparently there has been some crazy, some nuts tried that
00:39:20
and it's impossible for the the the the yarn to or the threads
00:39:25
to fall like that and create those shapes that sounds.
00:39:28
Like an outrageous claim that that an artist has has lied.
00:39:33
It happens all the time. That's that's the basic of
00:39:36
creation is you lie. Architecture.
00:39:39
That's no, no, I think it's we have, we share that with you
00:39:43
guys. One day you come back and you
00:39:46
explain that theory to me. And also what is really funny
00:39:49
about this thing is that apparently so there were lots of
00:39:53
glitches, there were lots of problems creating this off
00:39:57
camera. There has to be a fish rotating
00:40:02
endlessly for the program to work because whenever they took
00:40:05
the fish out, the program would crash.
00:40:08
So. There's some fish out there
00:40:10
holding it all together, and the idea is to replicate gravity.
00:40:15
And of course it does and it doesn't.
00:40:17
So there's this kind of indecision between this thing
00:40:21
that you gain and this thing that you lose in this theater.
00:40:24
So and then at the end of the corridor, there's another video
00:40:27
of a sandwich being endlessly made with layers that kind of
00:40:33
floats and then fall on the bread.
00:40:36
Then the bread's compressed and it's real food, and then it's
00:40:40
just toys and stuff that make the sandwich.
00:40:45
He has a really weird relation with food because this whole
00:40:49
installation is called Old food. But so after this room, to your
00:40:54
despair, there's another video that you had to watch from
00:40:58
beginning to end as well. Yeah, yeah, this is the piano.
00:41:03
Piano Work 2, which is from 2023, so a COVID work and it's
00:41:16
again, it has that layer of embroidery.
00:41:18
Then you go to the other side and I was a bit like you this
00:41:22
time because I wanted to watch it from beginning to end.
00:41:24
And I did notice that people would sit, watch for a bit and
00:41:29
then leave. And he did the show really well
00:41:33
because of course I know what he looks like because I've seen
00:41:36
videos of his and I've done research on him.
00:41:38
Da, da, da. I work in the art field, so we
00:41:40
kind of know what he looks like. But your regular museum goer
00:41:43
doesn't. And so the the Polaroids, as you
00:41:46
call them in the entrance, show his face.
00:41:50
Then there's drawings all across the exhibition, Red drawings,
00:41:54
self portraits of him, either in really awkward positions,
00:42:00
usually his head, like he's dead.
00:42:02
It's a bit cadaverous kind of drawing.
00:42:07
Or on spiders, his head, on spider bodies.
00:42:12
And then here you finally meet him whole.
00:42:16
It's the whole Ed Atkins, but rendered animated.
00:42:22
So he had to sit in the room in Berlin in during so the pandemic
00:42:28
with a team on in the other room wearing a sort of onesie, really
00:42:33
uncomfortable. He had to have an iPhone kind of
00:42:40
on in front of his face. And it actually is a
00:42:44
performance. So he performs the, it's a
00:42:48
minimalist piece of music that is like 486 times the same note.
00:42:53
And you have to count the silence in between each note.
00:42:58
So he's very nervous, but it's not him, but it's him.
00:43:03
Yeah. So.
00:43:04
But did you get to watch the whole video?
00:43:07
Not the whole thing. I couldn't watch the whole
00:43:09
thing. So I was one of those people who
00:43:10
walked in and sat down for a bit.
00:43:12
I recognised it as him instantly, which is great.
00:43:15
And that's really clear, the way that you've described how he did
00:43:18
that. Because I, without even
00:43:19
realising, yeah. And you instantly, you know, OK,
00:43:22
this is him and I, and I did remember in the in the foyer
00:43:28
before you go into the show, you see a photo of him with the
00:43:31
iPhone on his head. So, you know, you know, I know
00:43:35
how he how they created this. It's not a secret.
00:43:39
Yes. It's part of it.
00:43:42
And again, just the emotion, the facial stuff.
00:43:46
It's a human being and it is him.
00:43:48
But it's it's him. Yeah, but it's not and it's I, I
00:43:53
liked it, but I didn't love it as much as the other the other
00:43:57
stuff. But again, it was it was just
00:43:59
another layer, but it moved me on to the next room, which then
00:44:02
I really liked. So I have, I have a quote of his
00:44:09
about about seeing himself. So that's from flowers from his
00:44:14
book. So his last book that he just
00:44:18
published, he it just came out. And so he says the final
00:44:21
renderings very like me. But unlike with a photo, I don't
00:44:25
find it paralyzingly repulsive. I find it, I find it
00:44:30
fascinatingly so. And the difference between kinds
00:44:33
of repulsion is very important to me.
00:44:36
It describes me, the double S and effigy I want to make suffer
00:44:41
in my steed. I find it liberating to be able
00:44:44
to do something about the repulsiveness rather than be
00:44:47
stalled by my being inside of myself and incapable of
00:44:51
apprehending myself. So it's really interesting
00:44:54
because he talks about this idea of being in imprisoned in your
00:44:58
own body, which I very much relate to.
00:45:01
I have a very peculiar relationship to having a body.
00:45:04
And my daughter actually has she, she kind of records
00:45:09
sentences of stupid or funny things we say.
00:45:13
And there's one of me saying like, ah, I hate the material
00:45:16
world. Why do we have to be material?
00:45:19
Like a rant of some kind that that I very regularly go on.
00:45:24
And also this idea that he talks a lot about, which is that he
00:45:28
loves not working with actors because these characters, you
00:45:34
can, he can make them suffer. They can be his victims.
00:45:37
Is he talking about an urge to want to make someone suffer that
00:45:41
he has, or is he saying that we all have this urge?
00:45:44
You're in a world where the rules are different and so like
00:45:48
making a painting, anything can happen.
00:45:51
And he says in an interview recently in Freeze, technology
00:45:55
can enable access to a different version of yourself.
00:45:58
So you can play out your fantasies, but those fantasies
00:46:02
also exist because there's this virtual world.
00:46:05
So. But.
00:46:06
So. Yeah.
00:46:06
So you skip that really quickly. And then you moved on to the
00:46:11
following room and to your, you know, increasing despair.
00:46:16
There were other films and. This room was dominant to me.
00:46:20
This room was dominated by the big empty ply box that was in
00:46:25
the centre of the room. Oh yes.
00:46:29
As you move in there, there's just this big empty void, which
00:46:33
was fascinating for me because it's a room in a room and I'm a
00:46:39
sucker for anything which is spatial architectural.
00:46:41
So I'm drawn to this and I want to know what is this?
00:46:46
Why is this here? And then you can't step into it.
00:46:51
Yeah, I read that. I, I, I walked right up to it
00:46:53
and then read on the floor. Do not touch.
00:46:57
And you're like, this is not architecture.
00:46:59
That's the limit of the exercise.
00:47:01
It's contemporary art. Exactly, and I'm trying to
00:47:04
remember the name of the artist and it's completely, completely
00:47:08
escaped me incredibly. The name of the artist.
00:47:11
T Gormley. Oh yes, a bit Gormley esque
00:47:14
because you're in the tape. You don't.
00:47:18
You don't think so. In the tape all the buildings
00:47:20
are the rooms are huge. Of course they are.
00:47:23
The ceiling is about 6 metres away from your head, and within
00:47:28
this space you've now created a smaller space that relates
00:47:33
directly to your human scale that.
00:47:35
Automatically. Where you are feeling like this
00:47:38
small entity moving through. Now you're a big thing in this.
00:47:42
I see. In this one so yeah, to me that
00:47:45
that brought me right back to OK, now I'm I'm my human scale
00:47:48
again. And that was that was my first
00:47:52
experience of that room. We're seeing this.
00:47:54
Thing that's so interesting because I've seen that piece
00:47:56
before. So this is the installation of
00:47:59
the video worm. So it's a there's a projection
00:48:02
on the other side that we'll talk about that you experience
00:48:05
as an empty room before coming in.
00:48:06
And I saw the I saw it for the first time three years ago or
00:48:10
two years ago in at cabinet, his Gallery in London.
00:48:14
And I remember not really getting it, like not, you know,
00:48:20
not the not gettedness of it. And it's funny that you on the
00:48:25
other hand, kind of go and go like, oh, I read this, I know
00:48:28
how to read this. This is what it's bringing me
00:48:30
back to my own scale. And I honestly did not get that
00:48:33
at all. That's.
00:48:34
Maybe I just got lost in the in the familiarity of it, and
00:48:37
that's my own failing, no? No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:48:41
Everything's valid as an experience.
00:48:44
Well, it's just that you didn't get lost in any point.
00:48:47
Everything is challenging is is challenging me to to understand
00:48:53
or to read into some or or to perceive something, but it's
00:48:57
work. You can't.
00:48:59
You're not just completely relaxed as you're walking
00:49:01
through your thinking and you're and you're and you're trying to
00:49:04
engage with something. And then I come into this room
00:49:07
and it's like maybe this was my my relief in that, OK, I can I
00:49:12
get this. I can.
00:49:14
It's that familiarity to it. And that's why, as soon as I saw
00:49:17
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And then there's this. This film, old film called Voila
00:50:49
La Verite, which is which was really painted by him and he
00:50:56
hired actors to make the soundtrack, which is just
00:50:59
mastication noises and size and and, and noises like that.
00:51:05
So I was really taken by that and sat down and watched it.
00:51:10
And I think that's where he mentions Antonachto, the Theatre
00:51:14
de la Cruelty, Theatre of Cruelty, very important for
00:51:18
theatre, experimental theatre, figure of the beginning of the
00:51:23
20th century. So I was there.
00:51:25
I was kind of like going back to his references.
00:51:28
Then you're right, the empty stage.
00:51:30
So I can't remember. I know that someone said that
00:51:33
theatre is amazing, the problem of the actors.
00:51:36
And I've been trying to fight because when I was in the
00:51:39
exhibition, that's what came to mind.
00:51:42
I thought it was Alfred Jaffe, but I'm not sure who said that.
00:51:45
Or maybe it was just a friend of mine.
00:51:48
I don't. Know it's a great quote, I love
00:51:51
it. Guys out there please in the
00:51:53
comments tell me who said this. I can't find it and I know it's
00:51:57
French so it's back. It's back in my front days.
00:52:00
So some French friend told me this.
00:52:03
I've never heard it. And listen, I'm maybe now is the
00:52:06
right time to confess I have a theatre studies A level.
00:52:10
No. So maybe.
00:52:13
I should do it. You do though.
00:52:14
But here in the UK modernism didn't arrive.
00:52:17
That's my theory. And people like you and Nick are
00:52:20
very isolated. You are a modernist architect or
00:52:24
of a modernist inclination. And modernism didn't arrive
00:52:28
here. You study Shakespeare.
00:52:30
I mean, you don't study Beckett. Modernism still hasn't arrived
00:52:34
in the UK. We're still waiting.
00:52:35
I mean, it's still waiting. We, we have a very gothic
00:52:38
mindset. That's our, we have a romantic
00:52:41
gothic notion that we, that we just are, we, we can't help
00:52:46
falling back to that. And modernism, I think is a.
00:52:50
Is the gudu. It's the gudu of England.
00:52:53
It's we're still waiting. It's untrusted.
00:52:56
It's untrusted. Because it's foreign and.
00:52:59
And oh, it's German. Yeah, it's it's.
00:53:02
So we are. We are.
00:53:03
It's not of us. It's not British.
00:53:05
But why are we talking about modernism?
00:53:07
Because I was talking about the theater of Creotte and the
00:53:12
Antonachto, and I did ask myself to what extent people would
00:53:17
connect to the reference to Antonachto.
00:53:20
Because for me, it's a given. I studied in a French school.
00:53:23
I'm not sure that it would be familiar.
00:53:26
A little bit like his childhood. Who were the kids watching
00:53:29
Herzog films? I mean, to be honest, I did do
00:53:31
the same with mine. We watched the grizzly bear film
00:53:35
together. But he was watching Herzog films
00:53:40
with his parents in the 90s. No one, like no one would be
00:53:45
doing that. So he, he had a sort of a, a
00:53:48
very peculiar and unique, I think, upbringing and, and
00:53:51
education and. References.
00:53:53
They didn't have a Herzog section in Blockbuster.
00:53:57
No they they didn't have experimental film from German
00:54:04
weird dudes. The the the most you would have
00:54:07
would be David Lynch. I think that would be the the
00:54:09
most extreme. Yeah, yeah.
00:54:13
That, that would be the video that's always there.
00:54:16
You can guarantee and you could get that one out.
00:54:18
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah.
00:54:20
So I was kind of thinking that and I stopped and I looked at
00:54:23
the film and watch the film of of a film director that I didn't
00:54:27
know. And so it is a weird moment of
00:54:31
like suddenly being extracted from this very ultra
00:54:36
technological setting. And then you go into the next
00:54:40
room where there's this huge screen vertical that kind of
00:54:47
disrupts the cinema screen and just creates a line and where he
00:54:53
cuts refuse refuse into two. So usually the film is a unique
00:54:59
setting where you see the things fall and then they land on the
00:55:04
on the ground. And here you just see them fall
00:55:07
and it's as if they Pierce the floor, the real floor of the
00:55:10
Tate, and suddenly disappear into another dimension.
00:55:14
So there's this kind of fantastical, kind of a miracle
00:55:20
side to it. Yeah, yeah, this was for me.
00:55:24
This was the space before the space because I saw it, but then
00:55:29
I was so taken with what was behind it, behind the big screen
00:55:32
with the falling objects is a is a gallery space with, I'm going
00:55:38
to guess maybe 25 frames of a roughly A2 size white frames.
00:55:45
Each frame is filled with post it notes on a grid.
00:55:50
Just simple post it notes with hand drawn sketches, doodles,
00:55:54
etcetera on them. And it's 3 walls that you look
00:55:59
around and he says that these were post it notes that he was
00:56:04
that he started during the pandemic in 20/20/20 I think it
00:56:09
was. Yes, 2020.
00:56:10
He would make these little hand drawn sketches, almost as little
00:56:13
I love you notes to his daughter.
00:56:15
He'd put them in in her lunch box and then kind of slowly
00:56:20
dawned on him that these posting notes didn't really mean that
00:56:23
much to her. She wasn't aware of the real
00:56:25
value of what he's doing for her.
00:56:28
So he started to keep knowing, realising then that actually
00:56:31
they probably mean more for him than to her.
00:56:36
But I think it's kind of. So if I understand it correctly,
00:56:40
he's talking about the at that strange time when a lot of
00:56:46
people found that they had more time on their hands and and the
00:56:50
world shrank, say his world shrank down to these posting
00:56:53
notes because his work more. I don't know if his work
00:56:55
stopped, but he found he had more time and he could.
00:56:58
Some of these drawings would have taken a very long time.
00:57:01
They're not simple quick doodles of a stick man or a whatever
00:57:06
person doing these are mini pieces.
00:57:09
I love them. And you can only really do that
00:57:13
during lockdown unless, unless that was your, unless that was
00:57:17
your job to do that. I mean, I, I loved it because on
00:57:23
one level absolutely loved it on one level because of the
00:57:26
richness of the work, just the, the breadth of what he's drawing
00:57:31
and the randomness and the trying to understand where is
00:57:35
this image come from? Why is it?
00:57:38
And then realising maybe you'll never know where that came from.
00:57:41
And he may, he probably doesn't know it's a, it's a mind dump.
00:57:45
And that's what's also lovely about it is the care and
00:57:49
attention that's taken into these drawings is beautiful.
00:57:53
And it's for something as simple as a little note that you're
00:57:56
going to put in your child's lunch box.
00:58:00
And So what I, the elements of it that I really, really loved
00:58:04
and elements that I, I question. So the bits that I love is this
00:58:08
idea as a parent, because I have three children myself, where you
00:58:13
will go out of your way and, and you will go beyond what you need
00:58:20
to do for your child. And it's like a you're, you're
00:58:24
doing it for yourself, you know. So even lunches, for example, I
00:58:27
make my children's lunches still.
00:58:29
And it's like a little moment I have every morning where I get
00:58:34
to be a bit creative and do something.
00:58:37
I'm not really doing it for them.
00:58:39
I mean, I want them to enjoy the lunch, but I'm doing it because
00:58:41
this is me telling them that I love them.
00:58:44
And so I completely relate with what he's doing with the post it
00:58:47
notes in that sense. The bit I slightly question is
00:58:51
that at what point did he realise that the post it notes
00:58:57
meant more to him than to his daughter?
00:59:00
And at what point did he decide I'm going to start keeping these
00:59:04
in that little folder and and preserving them?
00:59:07
And then from that point onwards, when he is drawing his
00:59:11
post it notes is are they still the same thing or does he know
00:59:15
that he's collating something for a show?
00:59:18
That's the bit that I'm wondering about.
00:59:20
The genuine. There's an awareness and he I'm
00:59:26
sure he must know this will be great in the tape Britain in
00:59:30
five years when I have a room and I'm going to put all these
00:59:33
post it notes in a frame. I I just maybe that's the
00:59:36
cynical part of me that mean it robs it of its IT robs it of its
00:59:42
innocence because he's completely aware that yeah, I
00:59:46
mean, he's keeping them. If if he had if he had created
00:59:51
these drawings, given them to his daughter and then not known
00:59:54
what happened to them and she collected them and put them in a
00:59:57
folder. And then after however many a
01:00:00
year or whenever gave them to him and said, I kept all of
01:00:03
these by the way, they don't mean anything to me, but you may
01:00:05
as well have them. And then he.
01:00:07
Put them on display. That would that would for me,
01:00:10
that would have meant more because I think he's aware of
01:00:13
the value of these things and he's aware that.
01:00:16
So, So what I'm trying to get to is I think that in that
01:00:19
awareness, they completely stop being notes to his daughter.
01:00:24
They are now pieces for a show or pieces for himself.
01:00:29
It's funny you say that because he, I, he says that this is his
01:00:36
best piece for him. It's the best work.
01:00:41
And I wondered if it was because it was a moment where he wasn't
01:00:46
making art in my mind. I thought, oh, he liked these
01:00:50
because of course what you're drawing is always informed, but
01:00:54
you're making jokes to yourself, obviously.
01:00:56
And so he's informed by, it's still informed by the same
01:01:00
things as the other pieces in the show are.
01:01:03
I like that moment of awareness, first of all, because it's a
01:01:06
father talking about being a dad and being a good dad, which is
01:01:11
so rare in any exhibition in any film that you might watch.
01:01:17
They're like good dads or dads that just do you know something
01:01:21
for the enjoyment of it and not because their wives told them to
01:01:24
do. It's so rare that that in itself
01:01:27
is is a beautiful thing. And also it's a parent like his
01:01:31
dad and his mom who's communicating with the daughter
01:01:36
through his own passion because he loves drawing and also
01:01:44
through the passion of his parents.
01:01:46
So it's almost a generational thing that he's giving to his
01:01:48
daughter. And I think the piece is about
01:01:50
the disconnect. He said he talks about this
01:01:52
gesture as utterly devotional. That's the the expression on the
01:01:56
wall. And for me, the show then
01:01:59
shifted and it became about him as a son, as a child and as a
01:02:06
parent now, and us as the children as well, or the
01:02:10
parents. And suddenly you're playing
01:02:13
another role because you're everyone has a carer or the
01:02:17
absence of a parent. You might be a teacher.
01:02:20
He has a connection to the other generation.
01:02:22
So for me, it became about this utter devotion that you have in
01:02:30
certain moments of intense consciousness or of obligation
01:02:33
or responsibility towards others.
01:02:36
And I also saw the exhibition as his responsibility towards his
01:02:39
parents, which is a a displaced and defensible, indefensible
01:02:47
responsibility, but that he has nonetheless because there's a
01:02:51
painting of his dad in the exhibition and the next work is
01:02:56
also his mom's voice. So at this point it became too
01:03:02
much about him. I wondered.
01:03:04
My question was, I am so full of Ed Atkins's pathos, like do I
01:03:11
want to carry this person, this person's pathos as much?
01:03:16
But then, so how did you move in the?
01:03:18
Because this is the last bit of the show.
01:03:21
I guess you go from my memory. You then go into the Sky News
01:03:24
room into the. Room.
01:03:26
No, there's the film. There's a film before?
01:03:30
Or is it the Sky News? You have to walk in and then out
01:03:33
the spaces at this point, right? Yeah, yeah.
01:03:36
You go in and out of the posted space and then there's the major
01:03:39
space and then there's a feature film and I have no idea where
01:03:42
where that was and how I got there.
01:03:44
Well, I. And then there's a Sky News.
01:03:46
Trying to get out because. I me too.
01:03:50
Oh, OK, it wasn't just me. But you know what happened to me
01:03:52
in the Hissa room? OK, so I leaned onto the wall as
01:03:59
you would do when you were watching the screen.
01:04:01
And then suddenly I fall into the next room of the temporary
01:04:06
exhibition. The the so I had my sinkhole
01:04:12
moment where the door dematerialized and suddenly I
01:04:17
saw Damien Hirst sharp, which very appropriate by the way, for
01:04:20
this the theme. And then I kind of come in the
01:04:25
room again and, and being the good student only child's that I
01:04:30
am, like closing the door and kind of like not even trying to
01:04:34
understand what happened at that point.
01:04:35
Just kind of like Alice in in in Wonderland trying to not be
01:04:40
Alice and closing the door. And then I see this security
01:04:44
dude coming towards me and he just go like, did you lean on
01:04:47
the wall? I was like, yeah, I did.
01:04:49
Yeah. Oh, yeah, Yeah, I thought so.
01:04:51
And I was just like, what? There's a door that if you lean
01:04:54
on it just takes you to the other.
01:04:57
Side of the exhibition whilst watching that whilst watching
01:05:01
Hissa. What?
01:05:01
Yeah. Through a wall.
01:05:03
Yeah, that was a kind of butterflies in the stomach
01:05:07
moment. Yeah.
01:05:10
Brilliant. Tell me about the I'm really
01:05:12
curious about the end of your exhibition experience.
01:05:16
In my mind going to the show, I knew this was the thing that I
01:05:22
had in my mind. I am going to sit through two
01:05:24
hours of someone reading through an account of a diary of their
01:05:32
cancer experience. So that's not easy.
01:05:36
And I didn't, I didn't anticipate it was going to be
01:05:38
easy. So when you know that's coming
01:05:41
up, it kind of, it starts to dominate your, your mind as as
01:05:44
you're getting closer to it. So I get into the space and I
01:05:48
make sure I've got the best seat, which I think is the best
01:05:50
seat because there are three rows of sofas.
01:05:55
It's like a cinema. It's a nice, lovely big black
01:05:58
room with great acoustics, a huge screen at the front.
01:06:02
And then there are, it's like a posh cinema, 3 rows of black
01:06:06
sofas. So I of course am sitting on the
01:06:09
back row at the centre of the screen, get myself comfortable
01:06:13
and the film stops. And so the film's called Nurses
01:06:17
Come and Go, but none for me. It was produced by the Hot Wig
01:06:22
Art Foundation, and it has actors like Real.
01:06:29
Great actors as well, I love Toby Jones and Saskia Reeves.
01:06:33
Toby Jones. Yeah, both amazing.
01:06:35
I love this. So that relaxed me as well
01:06:38
because it's a, it's like your aunt and your uncle have just
01:06:42
walked in on the screen and you, you know that you're going to be
01:06:44
looked after. They're going to take care of
01:06:46
you. But they're also playing a sick
01:06:48
joke on you. I know.
01:06:51
Yeah, there is, there is that, but it yeah, yeah, there is
01:06:54
that. So I discovered it.
01:06:56
I was like, oh, there's a feature film.
01:06:58
I see the times I'm like fuck again.
01:07:01
Like I need to come 1/3 time, you know, because this was my
01:07:03
second visit and I was just like, shit, got, you know, got
01:07:08
had again. I need to come back.
01:07:10
I don't have two hours ahead of me because the film lasts for
01:07:13
two hours, right? I mean, or an hour and a half
01:07:15
for it's a feature film and it's the so it's a performative
01:07:20
piece. And that's, there's a reason why
01:07:22
it's so long. It's the actors performing for
01:07:25
six or seven or eight people, young people in front of them
01:07:29
sitting on chairs. So it's Toby Jones reading the
01:07:33
sick Diaries and Saskia Reeves in the back.
01:07:37
He just said that he creates these animations so that he
01:07:41
could do whatever he he he wants to them.
01:07:44
And now he has real actors was as if we've come to a point in
01:07:48
the technology that it's everything is so the deep fakes,
01:07:53
you know, everything is so realistic that it it there's no
01:07:58
point anymore and using that technology.
01:08:00
And so now you go to real bodies.
01:08:03
But that's yeah. But then but they're playing.
01:08:06
But they're also playing a very different role to the characters
01:08:09
in his earlier films with the with the technology, because
01:08:16
they're they're not really showing the emotion.
01:08:20
They're reading the emotion or Toby Jones is reading the
01:08:24
emotion, but it's not his emotion.
01:08:27
So he's just relaying to you and, and actually quite a it's
01:08:34
very clever because what he's saying is very moving, but he's
01:08:37
not moved. Saski Reeves is.
01:08:41
Did you see the beginning of the film?
01:08:43
No, I saw the end where they play, so there's two bits.
01:08:47
So they read The Sick Diaries and then the end is Saski Reeves
01:08:51
is actually his daughter and they perform the games that Ed
01:08:56
Atkins plays with his daughter, which is the ambulance games or
01:09:01
something. She's the nurse and he's the
01:09:03
patient. Yeah, yeah, so but at the very
01:09:06
beginning of the film you see them welcoming in the the
01:09:10
younger, the audience is very young.
01:09:12
I would say they're probably mid to late teens, maybe yes, early
01:09:15
20s, I'm not sure. But there's definitely, they are
01:09:18
the children in the room, if you like, and, and the grown-ups in
01:09:22
the room are Toby Jones and Saskia Reeves.
01:09:24
And you see them, welcome them in and it's all very polite and
01:09:27
nice. And so in that sense, you're
01:09:30
what you are. You are presented the two
01:09:34
grown-ups in the room as the host.
01:09:36
With the artifice, yeah. Exactly.
01:09:39
So they are then automatically they are the parents in my mind.
01:09:44
And so I found Saskia Reeves response to the the retelling of
01:09:50
the diary or the reading of the diary really interesting in
01:09:54
contrast to the audience, the younger audience that you're
01:09:57
watching, hearing it. Because if she is the mum, or
01:10:02
maybe she's not the mum, maybe she's just another grown up who
01:10:06
is closer to the experience just by her age and her stage in life
01:10:12
than these younger people. Listening to what becomes quite
01:10:16
a it starts off being sad, it starts off being a bit desperate
01:10:21
and then it becomes a bit more horrific.
01:10:24
At the beginning, the bits that the young audience find are
01:10:28
funny, they start to look because he's talking about poo
01:10:32
or things that are quite childish and you think like,
01:10:35
yes, OK, he's talking about, he's talking about emptying his
01:10:40
bowels or whatever. But is it I, I don't know if
01:10:44
it's funny. Maybe it's because my stage in
01:10:46
life and I'm closer to this. So I see it as as what it is,
01:10:50
whereas they see it. Maybe the whole thing that he is
01:10:53
discussing is you can see it's it's more abstract to them
01:10:58
hearing it. Whereas you see Saskia Reeves is
01:11:01
behind them. She's not facing him, she's
01:11:04
facing side on. So he's facing the people
01:11:07
listening and they are. It's like story time.
01:11:10
They're they're gazing at him. Saskia Reeves is listening, but
01:11:15
she's staring 1000 yards away, sometimes smoking a cigarette,
01:11:20
which I thought was interesting, and sometimes.
01:11:23
Because Ed Atkins smokes and eats junk food, but he talks a
01:11:28
lot about that in flowers. He has these.
01:11:30
Really disgusting habit. Yeah.
01:11:32
The Silk Cut cigarettes in the worm video is his.
01:11:37
He has these very unhealthy habits.
01:11:40
Jeanette as a film, I went in there with, I'm going to say
01:11:42
trepidation, but certainly wondering of how I'm going to do
01:11:47
this, how, how am I going to fare in this.
01:11:51
And it was remarkably, I'm not going to say easy.
01:11:56
It was remarkably possible you could do it.
01:12:00
Yeah. And it's OK.
01:12:01
And you did. By the end of it, you, you, you,
01:12:04
you went on the journey. It's, it's literally, it's just
01:12:06
a guy sitting on a chair reading diary entries from how he feels
01:12:10
every day and the treatments. And sometimes it's going into
01:12:12
details about the certain nurses that he likes or the nurses that
01:12:16
he doesn't like. So you get the, you get the
01:12:19
day-to-day sense of what he's going through.
01:12:22
And of course it gets worse and worse and worse.
01:12:25
And then they play the game. So it was and the game, I think
01:12:29
the last part of it is about maybe 20 minutes, the ambulance
01:12:32
game. OK, so there's, there's what I
01:12:34
have a huge question that I, I've not really, I haven't found
01:12:39
a suitable answer for myself, which in, in that game.
01:12:42
So the whole way through the whole retelling of the diary,
01:12:45
you're watching Toby Jones read the diary, but you're also
01:12:49
watching the audience, the camera, because again, it's
01:12:52
great editing the way that it's shot.
01:12:55
So you're watching the close-ups on the people as they're
01:12:58
responding to what they're hearing.
01:13:00
And then they play the game and it's kind of more of the same
01:13:03
thing going on, but it's an absurd piece of acting because
01:13:09
they are now children. I suppose.
01:13:11
Toby Jones is playing an older person play, pretending to be a
01:13:15
child, if that makes sense. If he's the dad.
01:13:19
There is a moment in the ambulance game where, so maybe I
01:13:26
should just briefly explain. Toby Jones is lying on the floor
01:13:29
saying what's wrong with him? He has got a problem and, and
01:13:33
Saskia Reeves, the ambulance driver, stroke medic, stroke
01:13:37
nurse, stroke doctor, surgeon, physician, whatever, is looking
01:13:41
for all these various cures for all these things that are wrong
01:13:45
with him. There is a moment where she
01:13:48
covers him because she realizes this is bleak and there's only
01:13:52
one treatment left for you. And she covers him with these
01:13:55
paper towels almost like he is deceased, He's dead.
01:14:00
In that moment when she's doing that, as the camera kind of pans
01:14:03
out, you realize the room is now empty and the younger audience
01:14:08
are no longer in their chairs. And I'm thinking, has he died?
01:14:12
Is this, is this, is this a preparation for someone for
01:14:15
burial or whatever? And she does that, all of that.
01:14:19
And then as the camera then pans back out to another view, you
01:14:22
see everyone's back in the room again.
01:14:24
So for that brief moment the room was empty and I don't know
01:14:27
why. I think it's about this missed
01:14:29
encounters in presence. You're with the person and then
01:14:35
that moment when they're not there is a moment where it's the
01:14:39
sinkhole moment, isn't it? Is that singularity where as as,
01:14:44
as because those Diaries, mind you, were read to the family.
01:14:50
So the family would read them or he would read them to the
01:14:52
family. So it wasn't like a private
01:14:54
diary. They, they were an incredible
01:14:57
family. They, they kind of could connect
01:14:59
like that. And then it's also the portrait
01:15:03
of this intergenerational impossibility of ever really
01:15:08
being on the same level. So I don't know, there's this
01:15:11
kind of disconnect and the singularity, the moment of death
01:15:14
where it's it happens to you, it's not going to happen to
01:15:16
anyone else. But it's also absurd.
01:15:18
The thing in the exhibition and, and we talked a little bit about
01:15:21
it before, but to make it quick, is that you didn't know, you
01:15:27
were a bit befuddled by people's behavior in relation to moving
01:15:32
image and the exhibition. So it's a, it's a, it's a
01:15:36
problem, I would say, where it's an issue in exhibitions because
01:15:40
when you go to the Tate, you kind of feel like, OK, I'll be
01:15:43
there one hour tops. You kind of go through the
01:15:45
rooms. Poor people, you went there and
01:15:48
then decided to have lunch together.
01:15:50
They will not because they won't, they won't have time, you
01:15:52
know. And The thing is that in
01:15:54
contemporary art, and you asked me the question, and I was
01:15:57
really surprised about that because I thought it was a given
01:16:00
you're not supposed to watch from beginning to end.
01:16:02
And it was so cute when you said, like, I was so lucky I got
01:16:05
there in the beginning of the video, which for me is not an
01:16:08
issue at all because there's this kind of tacit rule of this
01:16:12
is for you to experience, go through, come back if you want,
01:16:15
stay if you want, watch the whole thing.
01:16:17
But then I got to piano work too.
01:16:19
And I thought, this is a performance.
01:16:20
You have to watch it from beginning to end.
01:16:22
Makes no sense. So there's the intersection of
01:16:24
cinema and performance through theatre and I, I was a bit
01:16:29
annoyed when I got to the end and I was like, I don't have
01:16:32
time to watch the whole of it. And I really want to watch it
01:16:35
whole because being bored is part of it.
01:16:37
It's part of a performative piece.
01:16:39
That moment where you're kind of like and you're almost falling
01:16:42
asleep and then something wakes you up, you feel real time.
01:16:46
That's the purpose of it. And in that way, it's a very
01:16:49
traditional piece of avant-garde, you know, theatre,
01:16:55
film, Warholian, if you will, whatever.
01:16:58
And it's the second time that I'm kind of led to say in the
01:17:02
podcast, like this ticket. The same with Marina Abramovic
01:17:05
to the Royal Academy. Should be valid for three visits
01:17:10
because then you have one and then you have Sky News Life with
01:17:16
no, without sound and with no. I thought there was sound,
01:17:22
subtitles. Was there sound?
01:17:24
There was sound. Oh, there's sound, but there's
01:17:26
no subtitles. Yeah, I think that's the thing.
01:17:28
I I thought the Sky News thing was really interesting in the
01:17:33
context of you seeing it before you go into the the film about
01:17:40
the dad, the two hour film and then seeing it.
01:17:42
You have to see it again when you come out.
01:17:45
Yeah, because the very thing, the very the very thing about
01:17:49
this rolling news that never sleeps, it never stops.
01:17:53
It just goes round and round and round is this monster that will
01:17:58
never sleep. And then you go into watch this
01:18:01
film where someone dies and then you come out and the monster is
01:18:06
still there. And this idea for me, I always
01:18:09
feel that when you die, the world should stop.
01:18:13
The world should at least pause, but it never does.
01:18:16
You know, the day after you die, everything carries on as if you
01:18:19
were never here. And and that that idea for me
01:18:24
of, you know, when someone dies, for the people connected, it can
01:18:27
be the most either horrific or seismic thing in someone's life.
01:18:32
It could be a marker in, in their, in their life.
01:18:37
But for the world, it's just another day.
01:18:40
There's no, there's no mention of it.
01:18:42
There's no, it doesn't change anything.
01:18:45
And so that for me, that Sky News being where it was and the
01:18:49
way you experienced it before and after, was it just it, it
01:18:54
highlighted the things you that you already know that this thing
01:18:57
is this thing is relentless. And also the Sky News or any
01:19:04
like news channel glitches because there's a moment where
01:19:10
it either repeats, but also there's moments where you need
01:19:13
image. And that really annoys me.
01:19:15
And that's why I don't watch news.
01:19:18
Most of that I read it's you have to fill in the holes like
01:19:23
you have either to produce a completely absurd image that has
01:19:26
nothing to do with what you're talking about.
01:19:28
And then you have the the scrolling text it's underneath
01:19:31
that has nothing to do with the news.
01:19:34
And there's this glitchy body of news and that takes me to
01:19:40
something that I didn't say about Ed Atkins, which is that a
01:19:43
lot of the things that you see, he doesn't do him.
01:19:46
He's not a geek. He has people do the stuff for
01:19:49
him. So he's not committed to this
01:19:52
technology. For him, the technology is like
01:19:55
the body because the body of his dad was glitching like it was
01:19:59
all so dysfunctioning and it and and he talks about a problem he
01:20:04
has on his right hand where. He it, it spasms and so many
01:20:09
times he's like in a restaurant carrying something and the hand
01:20:12
spasms and he spills his drink all over himself.
01:20:16
And again, it's interesting that he's because it really looks
01:20:21
like something that might happen when you're playing a game,
01:20:24
those old games where suddenly a wall is no longer there or
01:20:28
suddenly you can go through the door, but you shouldn't be able
01:20:30
to or. And for him, he really talks
01:20:34
about these technologies as the interesting sort of delirium of
01:20:41
what the body can be and do, and also the and, and carrying the
01:20:45
same flaws and the same defects that you will find in a body,
01:20:50
but in a completely different context.
01:20:51
That then kind of creates a critical distance or as an
01:20:55
emotional distance or a sentimental distance.
01:20:58
But then that distance is filled with melancholia.
01:21:01
Was it a tell me? Was the exhibition an enjoyable
01:21:04
experience? Was the podcast an X-ray?
01:21:06
Will you be back? I loved it.
01:21:09
I've loved every element of that.
01:21:10
I, I think that it was a very enjoyable experience because
01:21:18
when is it not enjoyable to go to an art gallery?
01:21:21
Even the ones that you don't connect with, the whole thing is
01:21:24
still enjoyable. Surely that's why you go because
01:21:27
it's not guaranteed every time you go that you're going to love
01:21:29
what you see. So you're not going there, from
01:21:32
my experience, you're not going there to love something or to
01:21:36
you're going there to ask yourself questions.
01:21:40
So even the fact maybe the question was it enjoyable is
01:21:45
irrelevant because it's always enjoyable, I think.
01:21:49
And As for talking with you, it's a delight.
01:21:51
Always a delight. Ah, there I was fishing for that
01:21:55
one. You have to say that.
01:21:58
And while you're being recorded, I don't have the the true talk
01:22:01
behind it. But anyway, thank you so much,
01:22:03
Nick. Thank you for doing this with
01:22:05
me. It was a real pleasure.
01:22:07
And thank you, listeners, for being out there and sticking to
01:22:12
the very end. This was a very long episode and
01:22:16
yeah, well thank you. Thank you all.
01:22:18
This episode was recorded on the 12th of May of 2025.
01:22:23
My Co host was a lovely Nick Taylor and we talked about Ed
01:22:28
Atkins's exhibition which has No title, it's just his name, Ed
01:22:33
Atkins. It takes place at Pay Britain
01:22:36
and it's on until the 25th of August, so we have plenty of
01:22:41
time to visit it. The research assistant for this
01:22:45
episode was Sahej Malik, and the music is by Satan.
01:22:50
As ever, thank you so much for sticking with us.
01:22:54
Don't forget to sign up for the newsletter.
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01:23:17
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01:23:29
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01:23:33
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01:23:35
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01:23:38
Bye bye.