If Hogarth and Mario Bros had a son, it would be Hardeep Pandhal, the artist whose drawings sprawl on the walls, on paper and on canvas at the Drawing Room until until the 13 April. Half auto-biography, half hybrid character-driven cross-temporal fantasies, one thing is certain, we loved “Inner World”.
If you’re not in London, and you want to know more about the artist, he is represented by Jhaveri Contemporary in Mumbai, who I profusely thank for all the information they sent me.
This time, my two co-hosts, interdisciplinary movement artist Naissa Bjørn and visual artist Constança Saturnino, are YOUNG. So we have an Gen X versus Gen Z episode. And it’s a delight.
We talk also talk about: neurodiversity, the spectator experience, drawing, community, aphantasia, dyslexia, synesthesia, contemporary drawing, exhibitions, art galleries.
Follow Naissa, and Naissa's hairdressing business. Follow Constança, and Constança's tattoo business.
SUPPORT INDEPENDENT PODCASTING OR, AS I CALL IT, INTELLECTUAL ENTREPRENEURSHIP
We also mention Milo's song An Encyclopedia. Listen here. It's great.
Follow us:
Bluesky: @exhibitionistas.bsky.social
00:00:12
Hi there, and thanks so much for tuning in.
00:00:15
So one of the reasons why I started Exhibition Esters is
00:00:19
because as an outwriter, sometimes I feel that I'm in a
00:00:23
very comfortable bubble talking to people who have the same
00:00:27
references that I do. Of course, artists force us to
00:00:31
burst the bubble and look beyond it many, many times, as is the
00:00:35
case of the artists we're talking about today.
00:00:37
But I also believe that the spectator experience, whether
00:00:41
you work in the art field or you don't, actually brings that
00:00:45
weirdness and that specificity, that uniqueness that makes us
00:00:49
all want to talk to each other and exchange experiences.
00:00:53
That's why I always try to invite Co hosts who compliments
00:00:58
me, I the professional or because they don't work in the
00:01:02
art field. So I have two Co hosts today and
00:01:06
they expand that desire of complementarity, but also of
00:01:10
contrast because they are, yes, they are young, they are Gen.
00:01:15
ZS. So we will have a Gen.
00:01:17
X, Gen. Z battle or should I say episode
00:01:21
this time. And it was the most delightful
00:01:24
experience and I think it will be for you as well.
00:01:28
So another thing I'd like to tell you is that I start the
00:01:32
episode differently this time. So in the vein of this idea of
00:01:35
exploring the spectator experience with its
00:01:38
idiosyncrasies, I talk about with my two Co hosts are
00:01:43
different kinds of brains. So one of us is aphantasic, the
00:01:47
other one has synesthesia, and the other one is dyslexic.
00:01:50
And these three specificities affect the way you behave in the
00:01:55
space and also how you perceive it.
00:01:57
This might become a full blown episode.
00:01:59
So if you have any experiences with these neurological
00:02:02
witnesses, please get in touch. I'm really interested in your
00:02:06
experience and finally, I needs to be sustainable through many
00:02:11
sources and follower support is the first one I can rely on
00:02:15
before reaching out to sponsors trying to apply for grants, for
00:02:19
example. So your role is really important
00:02:23
and your behavior can affect the community that we are.
00:02:26
So the link is there for you. You can donate 2 EUR, 2 lbs more
00:02:33
than that, whatever is comfortable for you.
00:02:35
And if you cannot do it, well, rest assured that people will do
00:02:39
it for you. And when you can, you can do it
00:02:42
for them because they might not be able to at that moment.
00:02:46
That's how we create a community.
00:02:48
That's how we also support intellectual entrepreneurship.
00:02:53
That's how I want to call myself from now on.
00:02:55
So without further ado, let's explore this generation gap.
00:03:00
Let's listen to the episode about Hadeep Pandal and his
00:03:04
inner world. Hello and welcome to Exhibition
00:03:19
Listers, the podcast where we visit Exhibition separately and
00:03:23
compare notes during the episode.
00:03:25
Today I am swimming across the generational gap because my two
00:03:29
guest Co hosts are going through their second decades on the
00:03:34
planet, whereas I will be celebrating my fifth one in a
00:03:38
year. So we are going to talk about
00:03:41
and we're going to visit for the first time the excellent Drawing
00:03:45
Room and we're going to talk about Hardeep Pandal's
00:03:49
exhibition in a World. But first, I will introduce my
00:03:54
lovely, lovely guest Co hosts for the very first time in the
00:03:58
podcast. Naisa Bjorn, who is an
00:04:02
interdisciplinary movement artist and also does other
00:04:06
things, but he'll tell us all about it.
00:04:08
And Kushnasa Saturnin, who is a returning guest.
00:04:12
You probably remember her from the festivities episode.
00:04:16
She is a visual artist who trained as a dancer and combines
00:04:20
all of those practices. So what do you have going on in
00:04:24
your life? But first and foremost, welcome
00:04:27
and thank you so much for joining me in this podcast.
00:04:31
Welcome, welcome. Currently, I am having a quieter
00:04:35
moment on the freelance scene, but on the side I cut hair as a
00:04:40
hairdresser, not just a fade, is the business name.
00:04:45
And I'm also slowly working on a solo piece that will hopefully
00:04:51
be premiering next year. And working by yourself is hard,
00:04:56
especially as a dancer in the studio all alone with four white
00:04:59
walls. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting
00:05:03
process and I think I definitely, I'm searching for
00:05:06
some collaborators to have in the space because it's a quiet,
00:05:10
lonely process. And Quasha, what do you have
00:05:14
going on in your life right now? Yes, quite similar to nice.
00:05:19
It's a bit of a quiet time, just focusing more on being in the
00:05:24
studio and making, which is nice and important.
00:05:30
But I do a tattoo on the side. I just hosted the first little
00:05:36
tattoo event yesterday in the world space, which is an arts
00:05:40
residency space that's also utilized for other events.
00:05:46
Yeah. Amazing.
00:05:47
OK, great. So usually in the podcast I ask
00:05:53
the, I think now very familiar question, what has been going on
00:05:58
culture wise in your lives? But I have a different question
00:06:01
today because two of us here have been diagnosed with ADHD.
00:06:06
I'm one of them and I actually write about it on my sub stack.
00:06:11
I'm interested in the spectator experience and how unique it is
00:06:17
as an experience and singular and at the same time how
00:06:21
congregating it can be through those differences.
00:06:23
And each one of us has a form of weirdness in terms of perception
00:06:28
of space. And they're very different.
00:06:31
So 1 by 1. So you have dyslexia, which
00:06:37
means that you have a very, I don't think a lot of people know
00:06:41
this, but the perception of space is affected when you have
00:06:44
dyslexia. It is said that you think in 3D
00:06:47
and that's why it kind of lets us pop out and you switch
00:06:50
syllables and all of that. And so how does that affect your
00:06:57
perception of space, but obviously in particular
00:07:00
exhibition spaces and maybe even your relationship to art, art
00:07:04
making, artworks? I used to live above Poundlands
00:07:10
when I went to visit the flats. You have to go through this
00:07:15
alleyway and then turn on the left of these stairs where you
00:07:20
then are on this sort of balcony.
00:07:24
Not balcony, but. Terrace.
00:07:26
The Landing. Oh, Terrace.
00:07:28
And so then you have the door and you enter the flat and
00:07:31
that's how you get, you know, above the the Poundland flats
00:07:35
from going behind and then getting up the stairs through
00:07:39
the terrace to get into the flat.
00:07:41
And I was in the flat visiting it.
00:07:43
The tenant is very excited, saying this is lovely space,
00:07:48
love being here. Oh, I look through the window of
00:07:51
the kitchen. You can see the terrace.
00:07:53
We, we have loads of barbecues there in the summer.
00:07:55
It's really nice. And I was looking out the window
00:07:58
and I was thinking, oh wow, I can't wait to go there.
00:08:04
But I just want to get into the flat As soon as I enter a room,
00:08:11
anything that was before that room, I don't remember.
00:08:17
So I'm very present physically where I am all the time, but I
00:08:22
can't remember where where I've been.
00:08:24
It's not that you don't remember, no feel.
00:08:27
It's like you can't reconfigure the space.
00:08:30
Yes. OK, well and what about
00:08:32
exhibitions then exhibition visiting, is that is there
00:08:37
something that you feel can connect, you can connect to?
00:08:43
I think sometimes there's that little anxiety when there's lots
00:08:45
of rooms and the kind of options to to take different routes, the
00:08:52
kind of thing of, you know, is there a right way to go about
00:08:55
this? Have I been here before?
00:08:59
But so do you prefer a directional space, A directional
00:09:02
exhibition like where you can't just roam about, you just have
00:09:06
to visit it in that very specific order?
00:09:08
Yeah, I get very I get overwhelmed when when there's
00:09:11
lots of possibility to roam around and you can kind of these
00:09:15
work to go, but it feels very. Do you know what?
00:09:19
Do you remember COVID when museums had these arrows?
00:09:22
On the floor. And you, I loved it.
00:09:25
I loved it. So everyone was complaining
00:09:28
about it. And I was like, this is so
00:09:30
logical. You can just focus on the art.
00:09:33
You don't have to make choices. Why do people need choices?
00:09:37
I mean, I, I loved it at the at the supermarket as well.
00:09:40
Yes, like it made my my trip so much quicker because I'm not
00:09:46
like, oh wait, let me just turn back and go back to that aisle.
00:09:51
It's like. OK.
00:09:51
So moving on to NASA, you have synesthesia.
00:09:56
Tell us what that is and how you think it might affect your
00:10:00
relationship to exhibition going.
00:10:03
So synesthesia is when when you experience one sense, you
00:10:08
experience another one at the same time.
00:10:10
So for example, a common one is listening to music and seeing
00:10:14
colours or hearing sounds and smelling things or like I think
00:10:19
often another one is also like certain smells, illicit memories
00:10:24
and nostalgia. My I think the one of the
00:10:27
biggest effects of synesthesia I have is when I listen to music,
00:10:31
I really feel it in a textural way.
00:10:33
It's like this sound feels like a train zooming away or like
00:10:39
this sound really feels like slime moving.
00:10:41
And I think it really informs my movement practice and how I
00:10:46
react to sound. And when you first asked me this
00:10:50
question, I was thinking about it in relation to exhibitions.
00:10:53
And I realized when I go and see things, I will also like
00:10:56
viscerally feel the texture of the work or the piece.
00:11:01
And I think sometimes it makes me be like, I don't like that
00:11:05
because of like how I experience it.
00:11:07
And then I have to take a second and be like, wait, let me just
00:11:10
sit with the sensation and really take in the art first.
00:11:15
But yeah, I found I find that like some sculptures or a lot of
00:11:20
mixed media work will really like, I will really viscerally
00:11:24
feel a texture or something in my body.
00:11:30
Yeah, so in my Instagram, what do you call it, Profile
00:11:35
description. I guess I, I kind of announced
00:11:39
myself as the aphantasic curator because everyone asks me as soon
00:11:43
as I explain what aphantasia is, which is not being able to
00:11:46
visualize willingly or even unwillingly.
00:11:49
Most of the time people say, so how can you be a curator?
00:11:54
This is the first question. So I like to put it out there,
00:11:57
you know, as kind of a, yeah, there are different
00:12:00
relationships to spaces and to images.
00:12:03
So does that means that I cannot see anything?
00:12:06
So if I say banana, you will immediately see a banana, right.
00:12:12
So I don't see anything. And even if I try to see a
00:12:15
banana, nothing comes. So that's it baby, that that's
00:12:19
basically just what aphantasia is.
00:12:22
And apparently it's common in people with neurodivergences in
00:12:27
in general. So I have a.
00:12:29
Theory that that's what what makes you so good with words
00:12:35
because you don't have all these images distracting you in your
00:12:38
head so I feel like it allows you to be more precise whereas I
00:12:43
feel like I struggle with my words because I have such vivid
00:12:48
images in my mind that I think there's no way that my words
00:12:52
could ever amount to what I can see I.
00:12:55
I I feel the same, yeah. It's my home.
00:12:58
It's, I feel that it's my because people ask me like, so
00:13:02
how can you remember? Do you have memories?
00:13:04
I have very vivid memories and that's how exhibitions affect me
00:13:09
and how I felt and how I what I thought and what that led me to
00:13:15
and what state I kind of stepped into when I visit an exhibition.
00:13:22
And I'm far more interested in that than fetishizing the
00:13:25
objects In some ways, this idea of ownership or this idea of
00:13:31
this absolute need for them to be there all the time, which
00:13:36
thankfully leads to collecting and feeds artists.
00:13:39
But I don't have that necessity because for me it's a dynamic
00:13:43
relationship with that thing in in that space.
00:13:48
And then it becomes an A personal adventure or a
00:13:50
collective adventure. To me, it's more an experience.
00:13:54
We do have to move on to the exhibition.
00:13:58
First of all, talk a little bit about the drawing room, which is
00:14:01
a very special space and it's also medium based.
00:14:06
So I think that warrants a bit of an introduction.
00:14:09
OK, so the drawing Room has a really fascinating history
00:14:13
because it was founded by three curators, Mary Doyle, Kate
00:14:18
McFarlane and Katherine Stout in 2002.
00:14:21
So Mary Doyle and Kate McFarlane are still the Co directors of
00:14:26
the space and Katherine Stout I think is a trustee or has
00:14:30
another role within the institution.
00:14:32
But the interesting thing is that and that I didn't know
00:14:35
because I know that drawing room quite well is that they started
00:14:38
as a curatorial projects that was touring around the UK and
00:14:43
then they found the space and they devised the program, found
00:14:48
funding, etcetera. So the space that you visited,
00:14:51
which is absolutely incredible, they just moved in there I think
00:14:55
in 2023. It's a new space is kind of the
00:15:01
culmination of a very, very big journey, I think into becoming
00:15:07
the institution that it is today.
00:15:10
But I have a question for you actually.
00:15:12
Do you find it strange that you have an institution that is
00:15:15
based on the discipline and particularly the discipline of
00:15:19
drawing? No, I think it's great.
00:15:23
And you? Approve.
00:15:23
I approve. I mean, I, I find it interesting
00:15:27
because I feel like there's so much focus on painting in the
00:15:33
arts and like the National Portrait Gallery, when you think
00:15:36
of portraits, you'd think of a painting as opposed to a
00:15:39
sculpture or an illustration. And, and I also feel like
00:15:44
recently I've been enjoying comics a lot.
00:15:47
And there's a, there's a few artists, one called Rudy 69999,
00:15:56
I think on Instagram. And he makes these like little
00:16:00
doodle comics and posts them on Instagram.
00:16:03
And they are so touching and beautiful.
00:16:05
They really like, they really emote a lot from me.
00:16:09
And it's definitely made me rekindle my love for doodling as
00:16:13
well. And I think it's an art form
00:16:15
that you can spend hours or minutes on.
00:16:18
And I find that really powerful. I I'm I'm a big advocate for
00:16:22
drawing, basically. I didn't know we had you on
00:16:25
board, Naisa. I'm so I'm so glad.
00:16:27
No, absolutely. Well, yeah, it is interesting
00:16:31
because so drawing was not part of the genres of the art, right?
00:16:37
It was architecture, painting. So I'm talking about Renaissance
00:16:40
and you know the the academies in the past.
00:16:43
So painting, architecture and sculpture.
00:16:46
So those were the three major genres and drawing had a very
00:16:50
strange status within that history because it was seen as
00:16:56
the father of the arts. So it's kind of the patriarch as
00:16:59
as it were, as described by Giorgio Vasari in during the
00:17:03
Renaissance. So it there is this weird
00:17:06
history where drawing, when we come to the 60s, so when we come
00:17:12
to the new avant-garde, so kind of these big movements that
00:17:15
again rejected painting or kind of try to redefine the
00:17:19
relationship to those genres. They adopted photography and
00:17:24
drawing as these kind of undisputed disciplines that they
00:17:32
didn't argue against, let's say, or try to redefine.
00:17:36
There's also a lot of people still, even professionals in the
00:17:40
art world or in the art field who consider drawing still like
00:17:44
sort of a project, like a minor discipline or genre or medium or
00:17:49
whatever you want to call it. And it's interesting to see that
00:17:51
you have the photographer's gallery and you have the drawing
00:17:54
room and you have the photographer's gallery as a new
00:17:58
medium because new technology. And then you have drawing, which
00:18:02
probably might be the oldest, like you say, most kind of
00:18:07
visceral and compulsive form of arts, being these kind of very
00:18:12
cutting edge mediums in some ways or these disciplines that
00:18:17
sometimes by some people are not really considered arts and
00:18:21
therefore having an institution that defends them as such is
00:18:24
really important. But I I'm really passionate
00:18:27
about what Nice was saying. I experienced a a big culture
00:18:34
shock moving to this country from France because in France
00:18:39
cartoons and what are they called?
00:18:42
Comics. Comic.
00:18:43
Yes, comic books are so. Valued are so.
00:18:50
Valued. Yeah, but it's not.
00:18:52
But not just. They're valued for children and
00:18:55
for adults and old ages, really. And then I came here and there
00:19:00
was none. And my peers weren't reading
00:19:02
comic books that would go to the library and they weren't any
00:19:05
comic books. I couldn't believe it.
00:19:07
And animation as well, I feel like it's not very as valued
00:19:09
here as it is in France because it is seen a lot more as a as a
00:19:14
form of arts. And I think it's, yeah, we can
00:19:16
talk about this more later as well, because that's something
00:19:19
that is something that I thought a lot about with this exhibition
00:19:24
because of the drawing style. And it was really so exciting to
00:19:27
see that type of that type of drawing in an exhibition space.
00:19:32
And also because as someone who taught arts to kids, that was
00:19:36
very strictly told that my kids couldn't be drawing cartoons.
00:19:43
No. Yes, I think that we have such a
00:19:47
closed mindset when it comes to drawing still where it is coming
00:19:52
more into the exhibition space, but we still cast aside a lot of
00:19:56
drawing styles like cartoon and comic books and.
00:20:01
Yeah, yeah. So kudos to the drawing room and
00:20:05
to Hardeep Pandal, actually to bring this kind of iconography
00:20:10
into the exhibition space. And so to introduce Hardeep
00:20:15
Pandal a little bit, first of all, I need to give a big thanks
00:20:19
to Andrew Judd at Javeri Contemporary, which is the
00:20:23
artist gallery in Mumbai that has also an office here in
00:20:28
London. And they gave me the most
00:20:29
comprehensive press portfolio, artist portfolio, published
00:20:34
catalogues in PDF form. And it's so incredible and it
00:20:40
doesn't happen a lot. And thank you also to The
00:20:42
Drawing Room, who also sent me a lot of information about the
00:20:46
artists. Hardy Pandal was born in
00:20:48
Birmingham in 1985. He is a second generation
00:20:53
British Sikh and he received his BA from Leeds Beckett University
00:21:00
in 2007 and his MFA from Glasgow School of Art in 2013.
00:21:06
He is also known as and here this is going to be a tough one
00:21:11
because I may be mispronouncing this.
00:21:15
So he's also known as medieval. I want to say I will write it.
00:21:20
It's going to be on the screen to those who are watching the
00:21:22
video or mid level, I don't know.
00:21:24
Anyway, it's his activity as a songwriter slash voice artists,
00:21:31
video artists. So Hardy Pandal has a wealth of
00:21:37
visual languages and voice works that that are really, really
00:21:42
incredible and very prolific. So he works predominantly with
00:21:47
drawing. His visual and Sonic world
00:21:49
building develops through associative thinking and each
00:21:53
project is research led and explores what he calls post
00:21:58
Brown weirdness. So he shows his work a lot.
00:22:02
In Scotland in 2020 had an exhibition at the Goldsmith
00:22:06
Center of Contemporary Arts Tramway, Glasgow in 2020, as
00:22:11
well New Art Exchange in Nottingham, a big show in 2020,
00:22:15
In 2019 Watch Chapel Gallery, South London Gallery, New Museum
00:22:19
in New York and many other art spaces.
00:22:23
He was shortlisted for the German Award in 2018 and
00:22:28
selected for Bloomberg New Contemporaries in 2013.
00:22:33
So as he was finishing his MFA. He has had a really beautiful
00:22:38
career, but at the same time he's shown his work a lot
00:22:41
outside of London, so it's really great to see.
00:22:44
Also in the drawing room, an artist who we don't get to see a
00:22:48
lot. He uses drawing as his main
00:22:51
activity of course, but his exhibitions are more these
00:22:54
projects that take over the space and the drawing room is no
00:22:58
exception. So there's objects, there's this
00:23:01
notion of installation, but there's also video.
00:23:04
So you can go on YouTube and watch particularly the video
00:23:08
that is discussed in the catalogue that you can find that
00:23:13
the drawing room as well online and in the space called Riddles
00:23:17
on Backstreet. So it's signed by Medieval and
00:23:22
Vandalorem featuring Mr. Ugly and it's a collaboration by Hadi
00:23:27
Pandal and Adam Sinclair. And I really, really urge you to
00:23:30
watch it. It's beautiful, it's amazing.
00:23:34
So he works with also textiles. He talks about this
00:23:38
collaboration with his mother who was knitting these sweaters
00:23:42
for him at some point. And so he decided to include
00:23:46
those knittings and also reinterpret them.
00:23:49
But he describes this relationship with his mom as a
00:23:52
kind of a constant thread, as it were, no pun intended, in his
00:23:57
work, because of the language barrier between both of them.
00:24:01
So she doesn't speak English very well and he's learning
00:24:07
Punjabi, but it it is difficult. So they're both kind of trying
00:24:12
to meet halfway, and that's one of the things that drives a
00:24:16
certain aspect of his work. So in 2015, he was a recipient
00:24:21
of the drawing bursary and he described his work as having
00:24:27
been led by short term agendas for institutions.
00:24:33
And I'm quoting him here. And in 2021 he experienced the
00:24:37
shift in the work where he decided to move into this notion
00:24:43
of world building. So storytelling, sick
00:24:48
storytelling, gaming, personal stories.
00:24:52
So this hybrid composite, visual and sound narrative worlds very
00:24:58
much inspired by sword and sorcery.
00:25:01
So for people who don't know such as myself, sword and
00:25:05
sorcery is described as a world where there is no fate of the
00:25:11
world at stake. Particularly it is a more action
00:25:17
sub genre and it's more morally grey.
00:25:20
It's more character driven than really this kind of high fantasy
00:25:24
kind of storytelling that his kind of universe let's say is
00:25:31
called the Pinto verse after a family joke.
00:25:35
So his father, whenever he had to call a taxi or to give his
00:25:41
name, he would say his name was Pinto.
00:25:44
And so Pandal interprets this this as it being a way of
00:25:51
building a character to exist in out there in the world, to face
00:25:56
the world somehow. And for me it was very strange.
00:26:00
And again, we go into this idea of the spectator perspective
00:26:04
because my name is Joanna Pionevis and the P stands for
00:26:10
Pinto because Pinto is a Portuguese name.
00:26:13
And immediately I thought, oh, his family.
00:26:16
So he's South Asian of or of South Asian descent.
00:26:19
So his family might come from Goa because in Goa there was a
00:26:24
Portuguese presence, let's call it that.
00:26:27
And so kind of the inheritance of the colonizer was visiting
00:26:33
the exhibition of someone who talks about the the fact that
00:26:37
colonialism is still here and is still very much alive, but
00:26:41
manifesting in other ways. I don't know where Pinto comes
00:26:44
from. It probably is a
00:26:46
misinterpretation on my part for sure.
00:26:49
Maybe it's a Punjabi word. So questions for you.
00:26:51
Did you know about sword and sorcery?
00:26:54
Did you think about it when you visited the exhibition?
00:26:56
I mean, I think it definitely made me think of Dungeons and
00:26:59
Dragons and like Co-op board games.
00:27:05
And I actually recently went to a board game Cafe and played a
00:27:11
board game with some friends called Escape the Castle.
00:27:15
And at first we were like whatever.
00:27:18
Like it'll just be a chill like a few pints and a board game.
00:27:22
Oh my God, no way. Every time we every time we
00:27:25
rolled the dice, we were screaming.
00:27:27
The tension, the agony like. It was.
00:27:31
Honestly, we we did not expect to be so taken by the charm of
00:27:36
the board game. But it really it it it really.
00:27:41
Yeah. I feel like I really connected
00:27:42
with that within the exhibition of this idea of like, his group
00:27:47
of friends on a quest and then facing obstacles.
00:27:51
Transcribing a different format onto a real experience allows
00:27:55
people to access it more easily and to, like, everyone knows
00:28:00
about Dragons and Knights because we've heard about them
00:28:04
since we were kids. And I think hearing this, like,
00:28:07
trivialized way of describing it was really nice, to be honest.
00:28:12
I really enjoyed it. Yeah.
00:28:13
So to talk a little bit about this idea of post Brown
00:28:20
weirdness, which is his own term for this disentanglement of post
00:28:28
colonial and decolonization that we talk a lot about now in
00:28:32
academia, but also in the curating field.
00:28:36
We talk a lot about decolonizing the museum.
00:28:39
There's a conscious efforts being made into bringing into
00:28:43
the museum these questions. There's this consciousness of
00:28:46
the fact that we have been speaking as white people with
00:28:50
the privilege of having roles in direction of museums and in
00:28:55
places of power. That we have been speaking to
00:28:58
each other and that now we need to open up and realize that that
00:29:03
that is a colonial stance within spaces that are open to
00:29:09
everyone. But as an artist, of course, and
00:29:12
Hardy Pandal himself, as someone who is speaking from that
00:29:16
perspective, there is this idea of the post Brown weirdness,
00:29:20
which I also see as a joke on the jargon of contemporary arts
00:29:26
with the post colonialism, which was a term that we use the Lord
00:29:31
at some point. And then we said, wait a minute,
00:29:33
we're not past colonialism. Why are we talking about post
00:29:36
colonialism? And so I love this idea of, oh,
00:29:40
I'm, I overcame my brownness, you know, So I I think it's a
00:29:45
really interesting way of conceptualization because as you
00:29:50
were saying, both of you, he renders these terms accessible
00:29:56
through humor and through storytelling that might not have
00:30:00
been within a more academic setting and type of vocabulary,
00:30:08
let's say your technical vocabulary.
00:30:11
So in this interview that he did for Lux with Emilia Terracciano,
00:30:17
he says so. Quote from my personal
00:30:20
experience at secondary school in Birmingham, I remember
00:30:24
encountering more hostility from South Asian boys than white,
00:30:28
black or East Asian boys. This was primarily due to
00:30:32
religion, even though most classmates weren't strict, and
00:30:36
the cultural divide between Indian and Pakistani identity,
00:30:39
even though all of us were born in the UK.
00:30:42
Indian Muslims had it both ways. Laughs.
00:30:45
I suspect these attitudes were transmitted via the family home,
00:30:50
but I don't think our school teachers were prepared or
00:30:53
trained to be sensitive to these issues.
00:30:56
The fallout of partition resurfaced in unexpected and
00:31:00
unrelenting ways. However, there were little to 0
00:31:04
outlets for people belonging to the first generation to think
00:31:07
through and confront it. I had quite an education in
00:31:10
these histories of segregation and I am now avenging the
00:31:13
effects of partition through forms of humanizing violence as
00:31:17
a career. I think my go to preference to
00:31:20
work with suggested and elliptical text and voice in my
00:31:24
work has arisen from the lack of direct verbal and textual
00:31:28
communication I am able to have with my mother.
00:31:31
So this is a very big portrait of such a specific relationship
00:31:37
to notions of identity and to the the inheritance of partition
00:31:43
meaning of the division of territories by imperialists
00:31:47
presence, in this case the British one in the South Asian
00:31:51
territories. So it's really interesting to
00:31:55
see how he has been thinking about these questions that then
00:32:02
are the focus of his projects. For example, he had a, he had a
00:32:07
moment in his work quite recently where he explored his
00:32:13
first encounter with the expression BAME.
00:32:19
So BAME means black, Asian and minority ethnic.
00:32:24
And so the this acronym was from what I understood in one of the
00:32:31
forms that he had to fill out when he was at university.
00:32:36
And so that idea of suddenly having a redefinition or a group
00:32:44
of community that he belongs to was very, very interesting to
00:32:50
him. And in the same interview, he
00:32:53
says my work has always been about privilege.
00:32:56
So he also looks within these questions where the privilege is
00:33:05
rather than presuming that the prep privilege is somewhere
00:33:09
specific from the get go. So he explores these notions of
00:33:14
privilege and at the same time, of course, he's really
00:33:18
interested in iconographies, religious iconographies from his
00:33:23
Sikh culture. So there's lots of projects that
00:33:26
are also based on experiences in the temple when he was a kid and
00:33:30
focusing on certain characters that became characters in the
00:33:34
world building, obviously. I'm also curious if like the
00:33:39
idea of privilege and relating it to video games where like
00:33:44
especially within the swords and sorcery type games where you you
00:33:49
can level up the further you go on a journey and you gain more
00:33:53
armour and you gain more weaponry to be able to face the
00:33:57
world that you're in. I think that's an interesting
00:34:00
relation to like the older you get, the more you understand
00:34:05
what weapons you have and what protection you have for your own
00:34:08
identity in a world that isn't respecting of your identity.
00:34:13
That's. So interesting there, there's so
00:34:15
much to say about gaming in regards to how he panned out
00:34:20
and. It's very fascinating.
00:34:22
It's so fascinating. He's also been really interested
00:34:27
in death within video games and violence.
00:34:32
And at a certain point I was reading about his numerous
00:34:37
projects and he at a certain point talks about massacre, I
00:34:42
think. So massacre.
00:34:44
Cool. And this validation through
00:34:49
violent death in gaming, which I didn't really understand.
00:34:55
I need to go back to it again that that stayed with me because
00:35:01
as parents who have kids who game, and when you don't game,
00:35:07
you see it from the outside. And the first thing that you
00:35:11
think about is this idea of death and violence.
00:35:15
And I remember thinking that is so counterintuitive and
00:35:20
counterproductive, this idea that you get to die and then go
00:35:24
go at it again. And while having a philosophy, a
00:35:28
personal philosophy based on Buddhism, which is that I think
00:35:31
we die many times in our lives. That would be much more to say
00:35:35
about this really fascinating person, but we will probably
00:35:39
move on to the exhibition leads by the meticulous and
00:35:45
synesthetic sinister sizing hand of NASA.
00:36:01
So welcome back, thank you for sticking with us.
00:36:05
We are now going to push the doors of the drawing room, which
00:36:10
are actually being pushed by NAISA himself.
00:36:12
He's going to guide us through it and at the same time share
00:36:16
his first impressions and his reactions to Hardeep Pandal's
00:36:21
exhibition in the world. NAISA, the platform is yours.
00:36:26
Go for it. Thank you.
00:36:29
The space when you entered felt almost like a little museum gift
00:36:33
shop or like a gallery gift shop because it has a bookshelf of
00:36:38
books full of illustrations. And then further along to the
00:36:42
right, there's a library space where you can work and study.
00:36:45
And it felt very intimate. It almost felt like a small
00:36:49
university gallery space and I I really like that it's tucked
00:36:53
away amongst an estate in like lots of flats.
00:36:58
I think it's really quaint and like, adorable.
00:37:02
And you know what's adorable as well?
00:37:03
Is that library anyone can go into?
00:37:06
It. And they have one of the biggest
00:37:09
collections of books of about contemporary drawing.
00:37:13
They have 4000 items that you can have access to in the most,
00:37:23
in the loveliest of spaces. It's there for you.
00:37:27
So the the exhibition space has two galleries and as you enter
00:37:32
further along, there's a small dark room which has a projection
00:37:37
and it has his piece, which I can't remember this moment, but
00:37:42
it has a video piece playing. And then the larger space is A4
00:37:46
white wall, well actually a three white wall and a glass
00:37:49
wall. And it has his illustrations in
00:37:54
the space, a column in the middle, some benches, some
00:37:57
viewing benches. I think the, the thing that
00:38:00
struck me when I first walked in was there was this huge, like
00:38:07
cartoon creature painted directly onto the gallery wall.
00:38:13
And it's connecting all of the pieces that are up.
00:38:17
There's one wall which has it's, it's like a series of 15 works
00:38:25
and it's all from 2021 and then the rest are from 2024.
00:38:31
And the large creature that's painted on the walls connects
00:38:36
the 2024 works together. And I always find it very
00:38:42
intriguing when there are pieces of work that are clearly just
00:38:45
being made for that space. And then if the exhibition is a
00:38:49
temporary one, it will just be painted over and will only exist
00:38:52
for that space. And I really enjoy that.
00:38:55
It makes me think of exhibitions more as a performance rather
00:38:59
than something that you can commodify or that you can buy.
00:39:03
It's like he's very clearly stating this is for your
00:39:06
experience only within this space, and then it will
00:39:09
disappear. And I really love that.
00:39:12
It's, it's varied. It's very drawing still, even
00:39:16
though the techniques are quite specific.
00:39:19
But there's drawings on the wall on paper, there's framed works
00:39:23
that there's even a canvas at some point.
00:39:25
There's even the painting. And then as you say, there's
00:39:28
this creature that connects you at the actual drawing on the
00:39:33
sheet of paper and on the canvas and then moves out of it and
00:39:38
connects all the walls. And there's one line, one of the
00:39:41
walls is just a line with drips of paint that are super
00:39:48
spontaneous and at the same time very pleasing aesthetically.
00:39:54
And there's a whole collection of drawings that are part of a
00:39:57
series. And that made me think of a very
00:40:01
famous Hogarth collection of drawings about these sons of
00:40:09
wealthy people who become lost, get lost in lots of types of
00:40:16
vices. And have terrible outcomes in
00:40:19
their lives. It's called Rake's Progress.
00:40:24
So it made me think of something really classical.
00:40:26
But in terms of imagery, it's not at all like that.
00:40:30
And I found it quite spectacular that this particular kind of
00:40:34
world made me think of something so classical at the same time,
00:40:40
which probably says a lot about me as well, but it also says
00:40:44
something of the word. I felt a really visceral world
00:40:50
because of that big drawing that we were just talking about,
00:40:54
connecting all of the pieces together.
00:40:59
It almost feels like a showing of something that really comes
00:41:04
from within and it really felt like entering inside.
00:41:11
Well, you know, we're talking about synesthesia and, and this
00:41:15
has never happened to me before in an exhibition, but it's the
00:41:17
first time that I entered an exhibition space and I and I got
00:41:21
a song. Oh.
00:41:23
And I had this, these two lines playing in my head the whole
00:41:28
time and I couldn't stop it. And some of the line is actually
00:41:32
in one of his drawings, which is crazy.
00:41:35
It was the most bizarre experience.
00:41:37
But so you know, do you know Milo the rapper?
00:41:39
Yeah. So in the beginning of one of
00:41:42
his songs, I think it seems I. Know it thanks to you by the
00:41:45
way. You're welcome.
00:41:48
Thank you. But at the beginning, he said
00:41:51
this is an encyclopedia containing the Latin names of
00:41:54
the ugliest parts of my insides and that.
00:41:59
And it really that to me, that's just how it felt, like he's
00:42:03
showing me his insides. And I'll maybe talk about the
00:42:10
other line later, but when we talk more specifically about the
00:42:12
different drawings. So Theresa, what did you look at
00:42:16
first? So you got in, did you go and
00:42:18
watch the video or did you go straight into the the
00:42:22
exhibition? Bigger the bigger exhibition
00:42:25
space where you have all these drawings.
00:42:27
I, I went straight in and watched the video in the first
00:42:30
gallery space where the video, which is called Dragon Peace was
00:42:34
playing. When I, when I first went in, it
00:42:36
was the first thing that I watched.
00:42:38
And it is, it's a, a compilation of him rapping from his bed with
00:42:45
sunglasses on these like sort of hiking visor sunglasses.
00:42:51
And then it cuts to videos of video game death from dragon
00:42:57
slaying. And it is so bizarre.
00:43:02
And I was, I was really, I was really taken by the humor of it.
00:43:06
I think when you enter an exhibition space, you are
00:43:09
immediately like, Oh, I must digest the arts and not, not
00:43:13
wear a smile. And it immediately like made me
00:43:15
giggle and like completely broke my composure.
00:43:18
And I was like, this is great. I'm, I'm obsessed that I am
00:43:22
like, it really invites like a lightness to taking in the rest
00:43:28
of the work because the rest of the work takes a lot of
00:43:32
inspiration from fairy tales and I want to say maybe not oracles,
00:43:37
but like religion, religious imagery and like religious
00:43:41
stories. Yeah, I I really got a sense of
00:43:46
his humor from it. There's this very precise space
00:43:51
in your brain that that humor hits.
00:43:53
I felt it's very well done because you are giggling, you
00:43:58
are laughing, you're in, I agree with you.
00:44:01
You're immediately in, in a, in a good mood and that you carry
00:44:07
these terms that he brings you, that he gives you.
00:44:11
You're carrying these notions into the exhibition.
00:44:14
Because I watched the video first and so I got into the
00:44:18
exhibition in the way that I almost would have preferred if
00:44:22
there were no texts on the wall. Because I think that video is
00:44:26
enough to introduce the questions that he's so
00:44:30
passionate about. And then it leaves space for all
00:44:34
the rest that he's also very passionate about and has nothing
00:44:37
to do with him being a second generation British Sikh or
00:44:41
whatever. It is also his universe and he's
00:44:45
very specific imagery that has to do with gaming, but also like
00:44:50
psychedelic comics, illustration.
00:44:55
Even the kind of drawing, because you have spray, so the
00:44:59
the drawing is sprayed onto the wall easy.
00:45:02
There's airbrushing a lot in the drawings, which is very
00:45:05
unexpected and produces very weird effects that are quite
00:45:10
striking. Like you were saying Quasha, it
00:45:12
seems to be vibrational almost. The, the first thing that struck
00:45:17
me was definitely the, the painted creature on the wall and
00:45:22
I, it has these like long arms spanning the walls and I was
00:45:27
trying to follow the arms and I, I went to the first arm, which
00:45:32
was as you enter the right sides, so anti clockwise around
00:45:37
the space you went anti. Clockwise, yeah.
00:45:40
What a freak. Absolutely not.
00:45:44
That's wrong. You cannot do that.
00:45:47
That's. So bad no.
00:45:50
And then also interestingly, because I went anti clockwise
00:45:53
and then I arrived to the end of the the series of 15
00:45:58
illustrations and the caption said to be read left to right
00:46:03
and I was like, Oh no, I've I've completely I've fucked the
00:46:08
system. I've read it the wrong way but.
00:46:11
You didn't. That's not that.
00:46:13
No, not at. All but then and and then as
00:46:15
soon as I reached that, then I, I believe I went back clockwise.
00:46:20
I I was doing some, I was on my own quest for sure in that
00:46:25
space. And the catalogue is called
00:46:27
Inheritance Quest, which is, which is interesting, but it, it
00:46:32
doesn't matter because it's funny because it was so like
00:46:36
parenthesis. As a curator, what I always do
00:46:39
is I go into the space and I try to figure out where
00:46:42
instinctively you would go to 1st, which is obviously an
00:46:48
imprecise science because there's always that person who
00:46:52
has synesthesia, he's going to go the other way.
00:46:58
Anything goes, anything goes. It's a space.
00:47:01
You can do whatever you want with it.
00:47:03
I hardly take photographs, but because of the podcast I thought
00:47:08
it would be good because I wanted to make sure that I
00:47:10
remember correctly. That's something that I was a
00:47:14
bit worried about. And so I got my phone and the
00:47:20
drawing changed completely on my phone and it, and it really made
00:47:27
me wonder if that was done on purpose, because it was quite a
00:47:32
striking change. The, the, that the parts of the
00:47:37
drawing that were vibrating all of a sudden were so clear and
00:47:41
had this 3D effect on my phone. But I wonder with all of the
00:47:46
gaming things, it just made me think whether it could
00:47:53
potentially be intention because that the only experience I've
00:47:58
had is the always the opposite, that if I do decide to take a
00:48:00
picture, that it always looks horrible and actually erases a
00:48:06
lot of what I'm seeing. And it was the first time that I
00:48:08
was having the opposite where I was not only enhancing it, but
00:48:12
it almost felt like it was revealing a secret.
00:48:14
And it makes me think about those games that we have now
00:48:18
where you point your phones to, you know, real life where you
00:48:23
are. And then these creatures appear
00:48:26
like Pokémon Go. But there's other games like
00:48:29
that as well. And.
00:48:32
Fascinating, yeah. And it's not usual for me to
00:48:36
relate to things like that again, because gaming world is
00:48:38
not really my my world. But I was really enjoying this
00:48:42
new way of experiencing. And I'm not saying that he did
00:48:45
it on purpose. I just, I was just curious and
00:48:49
it was just a different experience that I hadn't really
00:48:52
had before with, with with. Drawing Yeah, I, I definitely
00:48:57
felt a similar experience with the series Inner Worlds, I
00:49:03
think. Yeah.
00:49:03
Inner World, the four illustrations that are censored
00:49:09
in a room, it's like a 4x4 room. And they, they look like self
00:49:14
portraits of him drawing and him playing video games.
00:49:18
And I looked at them briefly and then I went to look at some
00:49:22
other works. And when I came back, I realized
00:49:24
that there were characters from Super Mario Bros in there.
00:49:29
There's Toad, there's the little turtles.
00:49:31
And again, like, he, he, he really just he, he makes me
00:49:36
giggle. The, the, the sense of humor and
00:49:39
the detail is so nice. And I think, I think you're
00:49:43
right in the same thing where like you take a photo and you
00:49:45
are revealed something like coming back to an image, you're
00:49:50
suddenly like, Oh my God. Wait, I know this character.
00:49:53
I've. I've seen this before.
00:49:56
I really enjoyed that, Yeah. OK, I see what you mean.
00:50:01
That's interesting. Didn't happen to me at all.
00:50:04
So the materials used are Indian ink, I think pencil, acrylic,
00:50:14
and also airbrushing. And one of the things that
00:50:17
fascinated me, I really loved his self-portrait because right,
00:50:22
that image is incredible. With the chains on the face.
00:50:26
With the chains on the face. So from his forehead emerges
00:50:31
this necklace with these and from the necklace then downward
00:50:37
you have these arms that that they're a part of the necklace,
00:50:42
like a sort of a pendant. And his face is floating.
00:50:49
And that's because he uses airbrushing on drawings.
00:50:54
Like I think it's because he goes beyond what you would you
00:50:58
go do with the airbrushing. He puts an extra layer and then
00:51:02
another layer and then suddenly, or maybe not enough, I don't
00:51:06
know exactly what the technique is, but it gives it a sort of a
00:51:09
hue of blurriness and volume. And then suddenly the face pops
00:51:16
out and it's a very human unique face.
00:51:20
And at the same time it looks like a character in a funfair.
00:51:24
Because the the also the texture of the airbrushing makes you
00:51:30
think of things painted on image, imagery painted on stuff,
00:51:37
objects in the street, for advertising or for whatever.
00:51:41
It's so hybrid. It's such a strange image and at
00:51:46
the same time you can't stop looking at it.
00:51:49
It's so vivid and so present. Haunting.
00:51:53
Yeah, in a way it's it's like a very heavy smoke.
00:51:57
Yeah, it feels like a mix, this these different influences In
00:52:02
the one drawing, you'll have something like a Mario character
00:52:07
and then you'll have the, you know, old dripping candle on top
00:52:13
of a piece of wood stuck to a wall at it.
00:52:18
It felt like a a a really beautiful way of of showcasing
00:52:22
this all of his multitudes, but through different styles of of
00:52:30
game and I wonder memory maybe as well.
00:52:34
Yeah, and also it made me think of heavy metal imagery as well.
00:52:38
And there's this reference to 2021, this project where he
00:52:45
made-up this story. Oh, it's actually isn't made-up.
00:52:47
Apparently that's something that happened to him.
00:52:50
He got into a fight in a heavy metal concert and it made me
00:52:54
think a lot about and I thought he was much younger, know that
00:52:59
he's old, but I thought he was maybe in his early 30s.
00:53:03
And I was thinking how, how does he have these references?
00:53:07
Was he listening to heavy metal? Because I associated so much
00:53:10
with my generation and the music I was listening to when I was
00:53:13
younger. So again, it's this wealth of
00:53:20
passions that he has, they are not particularly connected to
00:53:26
his. I mean, he's not contained by
00:53:29
his generational, the typical products of his generation,
00:53:36
let's say. That's also one of the things I
00:53:38
really loved about him, that he connects to things that are very
00:53:43
that come from very different times and very different
00:53:46
cultures and that makes you connect so specifically with
00:53:50
him. I loved his drawings, which are
00:53:53
just on Indian ink on paper because of course it's drawing
00:53:58
and I love drawing that takes you to other animation, to other
00:54:04
languages and other materials. But I also love Indian ink
00:54:10
drawing. I love that.
00:54:11
And I love that sequence where he there's a lot of text and
00:54:15
apparently he says that those sentences that come to him,
00:54:19
they're just kind of go in there and they're just isolated
00:54:24
thoughts. And also I love that in some
00:54:27
drawings that are very big and with lots of color in the style
00:54:32
that is more like comics characters that are finished and
00:54:37
that are more that come together in a more packaged way, let's
00:54:41
say. And suddenly you have a sentence
00:54:45
with Biropen. Yeah, I was thinking that too.
00:54:50
And like a a little pencil phrase.
00:54:53
Yeah. There's this very this, this
00:54:59
atmosphere that he creates that is so inviting in the sense of,
00:55:04
you know, come and see this, this world that I want to share
00:55:06
with you. But also in such like a it does
00:55:11
the fantastical aspect, but also the very homely aspect, because
00:55:14
the whole time that you are seeing the exhibition, you can
00:55:17
hear in the background the rap that he's rapping.
00:55:21
Yes, that that he's in bed and that.
00:55:23
Yeah. And he's, you know, like it just
00:55:26
to me is so reminiscent of, you know, I will maybe be doing my
00:55:30
own thing with friends or at home and my brothers are in the
00:55:34
other room doing a rap together or sharing a song and messing
00:55:39
around. And it just feels like you're in
00:55:41
someone's home and someone's just in the other room messing
00:55:44
around or rapping with a friend. And and it is, yeah.
00:55:50
It, it, it, it, it really puts you at at ease and, and, and,
00:55:57
and in this humor, but yet you are surrounded by something that
00:56:02
also feels so intimate. And I wanted to talk about the
00:56:08
writing as well because that's another moment that I had with
00:56:11
the with the song, because the other lyric of Milo's song is,
00:56:15
he says in this loop, people of color coloring, people of color
00:56:21
coloring. Coloring.
00:56:24
And and then I I have this song stuck in my head and then I'm
00:56:28
going through the drawings and in one of them he writes over
00:56:32
and over again in a loop. It changes a bit, but it's
00:56:35
pretty much just him saying I have some urgent coloring in to
00:56:39
do. Yes.
00:56:41
And in all of those things of those series, the drawings are
00:56:44
not colored in. And so it's this kind of like
00:56:48
refusal of this, the way that they are kind of forced to
00:56:54
identify, forced to have to talk about their, the, the, the, the,
00:56:59
the, the colour of their skin. And at the same time, he, he is
00:57:05
colouring in and, and, and kind of showing us all of these,
00:57:09
well, the different aspects of his insides and, and also the,
00:57:16
the colouring in, you know, I have some urgent colouring in to
00:57:19
do. Made me think of because
00:57:20
colouring in is something that she say a lot with children.
00:57:23
We're going to do some colouring.
00:57:24
We're going to colour inside the lines and sometimes, you know,
00:57:29
because he's drawing cartoons and how that's still something I
00:57:33
think that he's viewed as a child style of drawing and not
00:57:36
such a serious high form of art. And it just spoke to me in so
00:57:42
many ways. And it was such a coincidence
00:57:47
that it just was playing in my mind so much and again, made me
00:57:50
think of that kid that I worked with that to me was doing such
00:57:55
important art and but it just was seen as kind of childish and
00:58:00
not so important. So this thing, if I have some
00:58:02
urgent coloring in to do, it feels like almost like a joke,
00:58:07
like because like, like it's not urgent, but it is.
00:58:11
And yeah. It felt like reading a really
00:58:15
accessible comics book because there's a lot of stories, so you
00:58:21
go into the exhibition and you learn a lot about a person and
00:58:26
their musings, their obsessions, their fears, the monsters that
00:58:33
live with them. It made me think of Goya.
00:58:36
It made me think of really traditional classical references
00:58:41
for some reason, because it's quite dark.
00:58:45
We keep talking about humor, but there's a lot of darkness in
00:58:48
there, like lots of comics do and lots of these worlds.
00:58:53
They talk a lot about attacks. They talk a lot about, like you
00:58:58
say, pushing you into your own identity, but it is your own
00:59:02
identity. But you don't see yourself like
00:59:05
that. You're made of multiplicities
00:59:07
and it almost makes you feel like you're entering into
00:59:11
someone's world who's also telling you.
00:59:15
Yeah. I mean, you can go through me
00:59:18
and through this inner world from through so many aspects,
00:59:21
and none of them are acceptable because maybe I was prejudiced
00:59:25
also in thinking he was younger because of this world's building
00:59:29
that he does, which connotes as childish.
00:59:33
And my mind maybe went there and did the thing that he's telling
00:59:38
us we do, which is presume a lot of things about someone because
00:59:43
of what they're talking about. So this claim to be very
00:59:48
specific, but at the same time not be reduced to that
00:59:52
specificity is so present in in in the show.
00:59:57
It's. Yeah, it's really.
01:00:01
Yeah, there's a lot to read and at the same time you don't have
01:00:04
to. There's also that freedom
01:00:06
because sometimes one of the things that I was thinking is
01:00:08
maybe a not professional was thinking you.
01:00:11
I I love a thing about drawing, which is that most of the time
01:00:15
it is supposed to be to end up in a book.
01:00:19
And here is the other way around.
01:00:21
It's these drawings that are extracted from those worlds
01:00:25
suddenly are in the exhibition space.
01:00:28
But it doesn't make for a difficult exhibition experience
01:00:32
because you can pick and choose. It's like a game of multiple
01:00:36
choice. You can take the alleyway or you
01:00:38
can kill that character or you can maybe run away from the
01:00:42
character. And there's there's this is just
01:00:46
one room, but it felt like you had a lot of dimensions to the
01:00:50
exhibition and even the space. Actually, we at you end up
01:00:53
seeing the space in a completely different way.
01:00:55
And not one time that I think, oh, this is a single room.
01:00:59
You know, there was sometimes I do when I go to the drawing
01:01:02
room, I think, oh, it's A and that ceilings are very high and
01:01:06
it's a, it's a, it's a very specific kind of space.
01:01:10
But no, it was. It felt very like little doors
01:01:13
and little spaces that you go. Into it's still very quest like
01:01:16
in that sense. I think also how some of the
01:01:21
illustrations are from A room, literally and then the video is
01:01:26
from his bedroom. It's like makes the whole space
01:01:30
expansive because you're it's from within the mind.
01:01:34
So your your imagination is expanding with it and you're
01:01:37
making all of these connections to traditional artists and like
01:01:42
medieval quests and video games. That was a a joy to experience
01:01:48
on well. Thank you so much.
01:01:51
Thank you for doing this and thank you for listening.
01:01:55
Thank you for sticking with us. We are so very happy to have
01:02:00
shared this exhibition with you. If you can visit it, go.
01:02:04
It's there for a while still until May if I'm not mistaken.
01:02:08
And if you can't, there is there will be images in the Instagram
01:02:14
account of exhibitionist as you can watch the video.
01:02:18
There's images there if you're having just a Sonic experience
01:02:22
with us. And obviously there's the
01:02:25
drawing room website that you can go to and also Javeri
01:02:29
Contemporary, which is the artists gallery that has a lot
01:02:34
of images of his work. So thank you so much for
01:02:37
sticking with us and until next time, have a great, great day.
01:02:44
Bye bye, take care. Thank you.
01:02:46
Bye.