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Created & Hosted by Dr. Joana P. R. Neves, art curator and writer with over 20 years of experience in the contemporary art field. Artistic director of Drawing Now Paris since 2018, she has worked across the industry, from the art market to education. She co-launched the art residency and project space Worlding in 2020. Exhibitionistas’ first year offered exhibition discussions with guest co-host Emily Harding; organically, it grew into a more experimental show exploring art topics, stories and interviews complemented by Joana’s publication Art Thinkosaurus on Substack. She champions ‘Art Wonderment’s’ embrace of complexity against the lure of ready-made opinions. A polyglot, she grew up in Lisbon, studied and lived in Paris, to finally settle in London with her artist husband, four children and two cats.
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Copyright: Joana P. R. Neves, 2024.
00:00:08
Hello. Hello.
00:00:09
Welcome back to Exhibitionistas. Emily here.
00:00:12
I'm so glad that you could join us.
00:00:14
We have a great show for you today.
00:00:17
In the spirit of the holidays, we've invited along Joanna's
00:00:21
daughter, Constanza Saturnino. She's a young artist living in
00:00:25
London and this conversation really looks at the perspective
00:00:32
of art from someone who grew up really, really steeped in in
00:00:38
art, with her entire family being artistically minded and
00:00:43
someone who's found her own way within it.
00:00:47
It's a great insight. I found it a great insight into
00:00:52
how a young artist is holding her art and is defining her art
00:00:59
in her own way. And not to mention she is just a
00:01:04
wonderful person. So thanks so much for joining.
00:01:07
Thanks so much for listening in, and I hope that you enjoy this
00:01:11
conversation as much as I did. Hello and welcome to this Family
00:01:32
Edition episode where I, Joanna, invited my daughter to talk
00:01:36
about growing up, going to exhibitions and eventually
00:01:39
studying contemporary Dons to take all this experience into an
00:01:44
artistic practice. This is an opportunity for me as
00:01:48
a mum to ask her questions that normally I wouldn't think to ask
00:01:52
and my lovely Co host Emily is here to poke this dynamic.
00:01:57
So first of all, hello Konsha. Thank you for being here and
00:02:04
welcome to this side of the podcast, the recorded site.
00:02:08
Hello, very excited to be here. Yeah, it's so nice to see you,
00:02:12
Konsha. I'm really, really excited to
00:02:14
have this conversation with you. As I was saying earlier, I
00:02:18
follow you on Instagram. So that's like a a big, big
00:02:22
treat to kind of delve into the art you've been making and, you
00:02:27
know, kind of where it all came from, especially as, you know,
00:02:30
Joanna mentions that you grew up in this milieu of, you know,
00:02:33
contemporary art your entire life.
00:02:37
So, yeah. So thanks for being here.
00:02:39
Thank you for having me. Well, first of all, I have to
00:02:42
say that you do not have my name or your dad's name and you
00:02:49
decided to go with another name. So I'm going to introduce you as
00:02:53
Constanza Saturnino, which is very weird to pronounce with an
00:02:57
English accent. It is.
00:03:00
I don't think I've ever. Done that.
00:03:01
Pronounce it as it's meant to be pronounced.
00:03:04
Go ahead, Constanza Saturnino. That's it.
00:03:08
Beautiful ring, I must say. So, well, first of all, I'm
00:03:15
gonna ask you ladies our usual question, which is how was your
00:03:21
weakened culture? What have you been watching?
00:03:23
Reading, Eating maybe? Anything.
00:03:27
That you want to. Put out there, the thing that we
00:03:31
watched this week was much belated.
00:03:34
It came out a year ago is the movie Tar, which Joanna, you and
00:03:38
I have discussed before and have rival views on because I I loved
00:03:44
it. I thought it was I thought it
00:03:46
was really great. So this is Cate Blanchett, and
00:03:49
she plays this maestro that heads up this the Berlin
00:03:54
Orchestra. And the it's, it's like more
00:03:58
than 2 1/2 hours long. And I love the way I love the
00:04:04
ponderousness of it. I love sort of the length of
00:04:08
time it takes to build the story.
00:04:12
And essentially, to me, it was, it was, you know, right in the
00:04:17
right. In the opening scene, she talks
00:04:19
about the conductor's role in time and that it's the
00:04:23
conductor's role is manipulating time.
00:04:26
And you know, she talks about how, you know, the music doesn't
00:04:30
start until I make it start. You know, So just these
00:04:34
absolutely kind of grandiose feelings she has about the role
00:04:40
that she has as a maestro, but but kind of that that is the
00:04:45
through line as well. I mean, she is a woman on the
00:04:48
precipice of a major breakdown. And, you know, she's she's
00:04:53
looking at midlife and she's, you know, she's pondering her
00:04:57
own, you know, her own, you know, death, but also like her
00:05:03
own relevance because she in in one scene, you see she is doing
00:05:07
a guest lecture at Juilliard and she's confronted with the next
00:05:11
generation that have very different ideas than she has
00:05:15
about how to behold music. And and I feel like it's a death
00:05:20
there. So she's kind of seeing the exit
00:05:23
of her generation's ideals. She's a Gen.
00:05:26
Xer. So Joanna, you and I can maybe
00:05:29
identify or at least understand, you know, it's like where she's
00:05:34
coming from. And and so it's like a a death
00:05:37
in that sense, too. And yeah, I just thought it was,
00:05:42
I thought it was a really unusual film filmed really
00:05:47
unusually. And there's a there's a review
00:05:55
that Zadie Smith wrote about it in New York books.
00:05:59
And the review itself was nominated for a Pulitzer and.
00:06:04
No idea about this. Yeah, I didn't.
00:06:07
Yeah. And, and I it's really worth a
00:06:09
read. I mean, there's, you know,
00:06:11
there's not many movies, I think that don't really tell you
00:06:16
exactly where it's going to go. I mean, this could have easily
00:06:20
been a movie, you know, and I think part of, you know, your
00:06:23
critique is, is the right one, Joanna, about the role of genius
00:06:29
and kind of that over emphasized thing.
00:06:34
And it it has a lot of that, but it's it is ultimately about the
00:06:39
Achilles heel of that, you know, in the movie.
00:06:42
And this is one thing that Zadie Smith points out in her review
00:06:46
is Cate Blanchett and her wife have a daughter.
00:06:50
And when the daughter is upset in the middle of the night, she
00:06:53
likes people to come in and hold her feet.
00:06:57
So you have Cate Blanchett going into the bedroom and holding
00:07:02
this little girl's feet to calm her down.
00:07:04
And, you know, kind of mentioning the link to Achilles
00:07:07
heel, you know, kind of holding that Achilles heel, you know,
00:07:11
very, very gently. And, you know, but her being
00:07:16
completely oblivious to her own Achilles heel, which is her
00:07:21
enormous hubris, the way she manipulates people, all of the
00:07:25
ways that she benignly like on the on the face of it, she's not
00:07:31
a tyrant, but she is someone who just plays people.
00:07:35
She's playing everyone. And yeah.
00:07:40
And so that that sort of abuse of power and the way that she
00:07:43
does it, I just, I just really found it super intriguing.
00:07:49
That's wonderful. I'm not going to say anything
00:07:52
else about because I've watched it like I think when it came
00:07:55
out. So what?
00:07:57
My memory of the film is not very fresh, so I'll just leave
00:08:02
it to your impression of it. You've almost convinced me.
00:08:06
How about you, Concha? How was your week in culture?
00:08:08
It was great. I finished a book in I think 3
00:08:14
days, which is a world record for me.
00:08:16
I'm dyslexic so it takes me a really long time.
00:08:19
I love to read but I'm just a little bit slow.
00:08:24
And it was The Last Sane Woman by Hannah Regal.
00:08:28
It's about an artist who is kind of feeling a little bit lost in.
00:08:41
She works with clay, she's a Potter and feeling a bit
00:08:47
disconnected from her practice and her life and work.
00:08:51
And so she ends up in this feminist archive and discovers
00:08:58
these letters, which are an exchange between two friends,
00:09:03
but you only have one side of the of that exchange.
00:09:07
The artist's side and not the friend's side.
00:09:11
That's right, yes, it turns out that this artist who at the time
00:09:18
of writing is the same age of this of the main character who's
00:09:23
in the present and is also a Potter and an artist and kind of
00:09:28
going through very similar things, but from completely
00:09:31
different time periods. And then you also have the woman
00:09:35
on the other side that you don't get to have the the letters, but
00:09:40
she also appears. Hannah Rigo is so amazing at
00:09:43
jumping between these three women.
00:09:46
Throughout the book, the relationships of these women,
00:09:49
whether romantic or friendships, they're so well incorporated,
00:09:54
but never kind of never take the forefront, especially when it's
00:09:58
the the relationships. I really enjoy that they appear
00:10:02
and you think you're going to find out more about their, you
00:10:05
know, their love interest and, but they just kind of disappear.
00:10:08
And it's not the it's not the focal point of their it's really
00:10:12
about their work and their struggles through life as
00:10:16
artists and as women. Wow, that sounds incredible.
00:10:19
And so how old are these women? You said they're all relatively
00:10:23
the same age, but in different eras.
00:10:25
I think 25 but I'm wondering am I?
00:10:32
Projecting. Projecting.
00:10:36
Because, dear listeners, Quonshe is 25 years old and also makes
00:10:42
things. Yeah, how funny works is if
00:10:45
they're not 25. Yeah, I do work with clay, Yeah.
00:10:49
You did. So Concha came to my room.
00:10:53
I was in bed. And she was like, you have to
00:10:55
read this. I don't want to be alone in
00:10:57
this. You have to read this book.
00:10:58
And I was like, OK, OK, OK. It was just waking up.
00:11:01
We're going to bed. I don't remember.
00:11:02
And I read the first pages. And when she goes into the
00:11:06
archive, she asks for material about a woman who's struggling
00:11:11
to do to make things. I think that's the question.
00:11:15
Just it's just amazing, the best, the best art of a book,
00:11:19
you know. How about you, Joanna?
00:11:22
Oh well. So I travelled to Lisbon.
00:11:26
I dove into my research for my book The Female Drawing Machines
00:11:33
and visited a brilliant artist called Eden Blake.
00:11:39
So Irene Blakey I I I guess, who emigrated from Brazil to Lisbon
00:11:48
in 1973. She is now going through her 8th
00:11:52
decade on the planet and she arrives in Portugal in that year
00:11:58
and she finds it sad and lonely. There's only elderly people and
00:12:04
children because all the young men are at war in Africa, in the
00:12:09
ex colonies. And then 1974 arrives and the
00:12:15
revolution takes place. And she never left the country.
00:12:20
She stayed there her whole life and it was just so profoundly
00:12:28
moving and nuanced to talk to someone who has gone through the
00:12:35
60's, the 50's, the 60's, the 70s as an artist under a
00:12:39
dictatorship and how she came to Portugal because she was
00:12:45
interested in concrete poetry and she knew about.
00:12:49
So there's this relation, this transatlantic relation between
00:12:53
Portugal and and Brazil through concrete poetry, through
00:12:59
experimental poetry. And so when she went to
00:13:02
Portugal, it was because she was really interested in what was
00:13:06
being done in Lisbon or, you know, in the country, but
00:13:10
particularly in Lisbon. And she knew the poets, Eugenie
00:13:14
Mellie Cash through maybe solid Tavaj already.
00:13:18
You know, these people were doing such groundbreaking work
00:13:22
with words on paper and taking it to kind of the visual arts as
00:13:26
well. And you think, when I think back
00:13:30
to those days, I think about constraint and oppression,
00:13:34
torture, prisons, you know, but for her, it was coming from a
00:13:39
dictatorship that had become really, really horrible from 68
00:13:44
onward. And coming to Europe and to talk
00:13:46
to these peers. Those are the moments in this
00:13:50
profession, I think, where you just find these folds in time
00:13:56
and in history that are really, really exciting.
00:13:58
Great. So can I ask the first question?
00:14:02
Sure, OK. And when you when you kind of
00:14:05
think about your growing up, like what place does art have in
00:14:11
it? And when did you first notice
00:14:14
it? Because, I mean, you were so
00:14:16
enmeshed in it, I imagine you know from your parents that it
00:14:21
could almost just be sort of the air you're breathing and.
00:14:25
Totally. And so when did you kind of
00:14:28
start to notice it as a thing? There was this moment when I
00:14:33
realised that the, the work that my dad was making, because I
00:14:37
would see most of his life he's worked at home, not in a studio
00:14:42
outside of the home. And even when he does have
00:14:44
studios, I think he really likes working.
00:14:49
And so I would see him work, you know, all the time.
00:14:55
But I remember as if it was yesterday, the moment that I
00:14:58
realised that what he spent hours doing, you know, sweat,
00:15:04
blood and tears, that he that it that he would sell it and that
00:15:08
it would disappear from his life and that you probably wouldn't
00:15:12
see a lot of those works again. And I remember realizing that
00:15:15
and going and going up to him and saying, Dad, did you?
00:15:18
How did you let go of what you just spent age is making?
00:15:22
And I guess I was a kid as well. So when I was, you know, making
00:15:26
my things or I have my toys or I have the drawing I just made and
00:15:29
I'm so proud of it. I'm keeping those things.
00:15:32
A lot of what I'm making as a kid, I'm keeping it and
00:15:34
realising that what he's playing with and making, he has to give
00:15:38
it away. And I just remember thinking,
00:15:41
that's how do you do that? How do you say goodbye?
00:15:46
And he and he and he was so amazing.
00:15:50
And he said, you know, it gets to a point where I'm, I, I'm
00:15:56
working on something and I give it my all and I and I love it so
00:16:00
much and I get to spend so much time with it.
00:16:02
But it gets to the magical part is that it gets to a point where
00:16:09
it's not mine anymore. I get to share that what I've
00:16:11
experienced. I get to share that with someone
00:16:13
else. And so it's letting go, but it's
00:16:16
also letting it carry on in a different way.
00:16:19
I really, I really enjoyed listening to to his answer.
00:16:23
Part of me, the kids, part of me was still like, oh, but.
00:16:25
Still go the the shock for me is sometimes speaking with artists
00:16:30
who have a hard time letting go of their work.
00:16:32
I'm always like, really, because I'm so used to seeing someone
00:16:36
who's like, sure, this is going to go somewhere.
00:16:39
And I'm, I'm letting go of it because this is my way of
00:16:45
communicating with people. That's really is his language.
00:16:49
Yeah, more than any other language, even skateboarding or
00:16:53
surfing that he practiced for so many hours.
00:16:56
And you know, that's not his way of that's his way of
00:17:00
communicating with himself. And art is his way of
00:17:03
communicating with other people. So I'm not surprised that that's
00:17:07
what he answered. At the same time, we, we, we do
00:17:10
get to spend so much time with the work that he makes.
00:17:15
I would see it every single day. I would see it evolving.
00:17:18
At certain times. He's working on certain themes.
00:17:22
And so you're seeing him build these collections.
00:17:24
And so even though it doesn't end up on the walls, we, we
00:17:28
have, so we do get to spend so much time with it in the making,
00:17:33
but also they'll be, you know, they might not be on the wall,
00:17:36
but they'll be on the table. I get nostalgic sometimes
00:17:39
because I, I then see images or he's bringing something back
00:17:44
that he was doing a long time ago.
00:17:46
And I see those works. And I think, wow, I spent, I
00:17:49
remember the time of my life when you were working with this
00:17:52
and we were spending months and years with this around the house
00:17:55
and now it's in someone else's house or you're bringing it
00:17:58
back. And it's nice to see that again.
00:18:00
And so even though we don't put things on the walls, it, we do
00:18:03
get to spend such a, a wonderful amount of time with the with the
00:18:08
work in a different way than it being on the wall, which is
00:18:10
nice. And can I just say I love this
00:18:14
answer so much of all of the ways you could answer that.
00:18:18
Like how did how did art arrive in your mind and heart and soul
00:18:23
that you first noticed? You could have gone, oh, we went
00:18:27
to a museum or, you know, we had a book or mom curated something.
00:18:34
And I mean, but just the fact that, you know, your entry point
00:18:37
is this outpouring of intention and creation that your dad had
00:18:45
just to spirit it away to its life wherever it's going.
00:18:51
Kind of that, you know, detachment, as you say, or just
00:18:54
kind of that passing along of, you know, Joanna, what you're
00:18:57
saying, what he has to say. And, and really that emphasis of
00:19:03
passing it on. Because it would have been a
00:19:05
different thing, I think, if he if he had felt the way a lot of
00:19:09
other artists feel, which is like, this is mine now, you
00:19:12
know, or that instinct that we all have, like you had when you
00:19:15
were a kid of this is mine. I may have this wrong but what
00:19:17
I'm hearing is like art is almost a thing that it isn't
00:19:22
something you keep at at least your introductory to it which.
00:19:25
Is yeah, it's incredible. So you mentioned drawing, which
00:19:29
is obviously your dad's is that's his main, his main
00:19:33
medium. What do you remember?
00:19:37
I mean, obviously you're a kid, you're colouring, you're making
00:19:40
stuff. I mean, all the kids are artists
00:19:42
all the time doing. Things.
00:19:44
Do you remember a time or was there a time when you were like,
00:19:49
OK, I'm going to try to make art.
00:19:51
I I. I, I wouldn't, I never thought
00:19:53
of of it like that because to me art is so present.
00:20:02
Everywhere that it, I never felt like I had to to to to name
00:20:07
something, to call something arts.
00:20:10
It just is it, it, it, it what I was drawing was art.
00:20:16
Just as you know, me seeing a flock of birds in the sky was
00:20:21
arts. I remember in secondary school,
00:20:25
our art teacher, he would often correct what people were drawing
00:20:32
and kind of take over people's work and go, no, don't do it
00:20:34
like this. And I think he was just, bless
00:20:36
him, a bit of a a frustrated artist who clearly just wanted
00:20:39
to do his own thing and, and. Many art teachers.
00:20:43
Oh, is when he said to one of my friends, oh, yeah, you're not,
00:20:47
you're not very good at drawing or, or, and I just was so
00:20:51
furious. And I said, you know, or I think
00:20:55
he was saying, oh, that's not it's not good or it's not art or
00:20:58
it's something. I can't remember what he said
00:21:01
verbatim, but it was along those lines.
00:21:03
And I had to, and I was very shy, but I had to say to him,
00:21:08
you can't say that everyone can draw.
00:21:13
There's of course different skill sets and different things
00:21:15
you can learn, but you can't say someone can't draw.
00:21:18
That is that is unacceptable. And actually another thing that
00:21:23
got me in trouble with an art teacher, to be honest with you.
00:21:27
I, I had AI had my, this was in, in London and I was learning in
00:21:36
my art class about Henry Mole and I was really enjoying
00:21:41
learning about, about him. And then I came home and I was
00:21:45
like, oh, we're learning about Henry Moore today.
00:21:48
I'm sure you know him. He was the first to, he was the
00:21:54
first to introduce that. I can't even remember now
00:21:57
actually how bad. The round shape.
00:22:02
The round shape sense. But there was there's a term
00:22:05
that I can't remember now, but doesn't matter.
00:22:07
It doesn't matter. And you turned to me furious and
00:22:12
you said that is incorrect. It was Barbara Hepworth.
00:22:17
It was not Henry Moore, your teacher.
00:22:19
It's wrong. It's it's not teaching you
00:22:21
properly. He was absolutely not the first.
00:22:23
And the next day, of course, I went to to school, to my art
00:22:26
teacher. And I said, actually, it wasn't
00:22:29
Henry Moore who was the first. I've been informed.
00:22:33
By a trusted source. So we did speak a lot about it.
00:22:40
The main thing that was present was the, the, the making for
00:22:44
sure. And, and, and back going back to
00:22:46
your question, Emily, I think that I'm wondering now the fact
00:22:52
that dad's never really kind of put up his work.
00:22:58
I, I, I don't remember having those feelings of making
00:23:02
something and thinking, oh, I'm making art and then I'm going to
00:23:04
put it up. I never put anything up really
00:23:10
or so art in that way. It really was about making and
00:23:14
enjoying the making so much and the the the the process of the
00:23:20
making, but also seeing what I'm doing.
00:23:23
But I never felt like it then needed to be called art or or or
00:23:29
or put up as as such displays when you say put up like.
00:23:32
Yeah, display, yeah. It just, yeah, it just was more
00:23:39
about experiencing it and then then then naming.
00:23:45
It brilliant. All right, well, this has been
00:23:47
fantastic. Let's take a quick break and
00:23:50
when we come back, we will talk to Concha a bit more about how
00:23:55
her art evolved and where she took it and where she is now,
00:23:59
which is a really fascinating, interesting place.
00:24:02
And I also have so many questions about and you know,
00:24:05
you may not be able to answer all of them, Khansh, but just
00:24:08
kind of how people, how younger people are experiencing the art
00:24:14
world as it were. So lots more to come.
00:24:19
Yeah, let's take a quick break. See you in a bit.
00:24:44
Welcome back again, we all have our hot drinks and we're ready
00:24:48
to dig into the second-half of the episode.
00:24:53
You poor thing, can I have? A very, very lukewarm coffee.
00:24:57
I might survive I. Might be the only one with a hot
00:25:00
drink actually. You're the only one who's got it
00:25:02
together today. Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:05
You're talking about this book you're reading about a young
00:25:09
woman living the artists life. You are doing that in, in your
00:25:14
own life now, which I mean, that's such an incredible
00:25:17
glimpse into what that means for someone making their way in the
00:25:22
art world in London, which is not so easy.
00:25:25
So you formally studied as a dancer What what, what took you
00:25:29
in that direction? I was always intrigued by dance
00:25:35
from a young age. The art that I wanted to make
00:25:38
was more related to movements, even when in in the artists and
00:25:47
shows and things that I was interested in when you when we
00:25:49
would go to exhibitions or when I would learn about an artist, I
00:25:55
was realizing that I was really interested in work that involved
00:26:00
movements and performance arts. And I remember the first time
00:26:03
that I think it was Dad, he was showing me the work of Richard
00:26:11
Long, that piece that he did when he walked back and forth on
00:26:16
a. Alignment by walking.
00:26:18
Which is goodness. Of a field of of really high
00:26:24
grass, but and there's a line there.
00:26:27
It's not even high. It's not even high.
00:26:29
It's not high. I'm a fantastic.
00:26:32
I don't visualize so I'm kind of making it up as I go.
00:26:34
That image lives rent free and my mind's 24/7 it's.
00:26:37
Just a path. It's just how you make paths in
00:26:40
nature. But he kind of went back and
00:26:42
forth and made that path rather than taking a path that probably
00:26:47
was some somewhere else in the field.
00:26:49
And it's just the black and white photograph called a line
00:26:52
made by walking and that's. And so is.
00:26:56
A very important work. In those moments, seeing the
00:26:59
involvement of the of the body in making art and in making
00:27:03
lines and in drawing. And but I also think it's quite
00:27:06
funny because when I remember when I was a teenager or a
00:27:10
university, I can't remember, but dad was saying, oh, you
00:27:12
know, you're saying, yeah, but you know, it's you really
00:27:15
brought kind of dance and movement into the the family.
00:27:20
That was your path. And, you know, you brought it to
00:27:22
us and that's, we might have brought things to you, but you
00:27:26
also brought things into the, the home and into, into my work.
00:27:30
And I was thinking, actually, that's, that's not true.
00:27:33
The performance was 24/7 at home.
00:27:36
And I, and I, I was so lucky to see the, the, the process of,
00:27:43
of, of, of, of, of drawing and how the body is so heavily
00:27:49
involved in the, in the making. And I used to kind of, I, I love
00:27:53
watching, watching him work. It was like a free performance.
00:27:58
And so I think that sure, I brought some more of the kind of
00:28:02
dance and contemporary dance aspect of things, but movement
00:28:06
was always, was always there. I didn't bring that.
00:28:09
He always had that. And his work is very physical,
00:28:11
so. Tell us a little bit about the
00:28:13
work you're doing now, and maybe also just like how movement in
00:28:19
the body plays a role in that. Work, I really enjoy the, even
00:28:23
the practical process of having to, to carry and lift and, and
00:28:29
forage big chunks of clay. And I love how much it, it
00:28:37
teaches me how, how strong I am, even in the practical sense of
00:28:40
having to carry things around. And, and I, I enjoy feeling the,
00:28:43
the strength that it, that it requires and that I, because I,
00:28:47
for a long time, especially as a woman, you'd think you are not
00:28:50
very strong and you can't carry a lot.
00:28:52
And the fact that I make myself carry a lot of things.
00:28:57
I really enjoy that feeling of a lot of the time I get an idea, I
00:29:00
have to do it and there might be, there might not be anyone
00:29:02
around to help me achieve this, this, this image that I have in
00:29:06
my head of this thing that I want to make, but I have to make
00:29:09
it. And, and so the body has to, to
00:29:13
comply and I have to, to do the thing.
00:29:16
And, and I, I really enjoy that how movement comes in into that
00:29:21
in that sense, in the practical sense.
00:29:23
And then I, I make a lot of things where the body has to go
00:29:29
inside. So some kind of sculptural work
00:29:32
where the body has to go inside of the, of the, of the piece.
00:29:37
And when I'm making it, I do work a lot around my body,
00:29:42
fitting the materials around as I'm working.
00:29:45
And it also feels like working as a choreographer because but,
00:29:53
but just the, the, the dancers that I'm working with don't know
00:29:56
that they're working with me and because they're the audience,
00:29:59
but I, I, I, I make something that is choreographed.
00:30:04
So then I know that the, the boy like the this helmets that I
00:30:08
hung, for example. I know that people are a lot of
00:30:11
people are going depending on heights, but they're going to
00:30:13
Crouch a little bit and then they're going to get inside the
00:30:15
helmets. And that's that.
00:30:17
It's almost like choreographing movements.
00:30:21
Did this piece in an arts residency and it's a sculpture
00:30:26
that I made out of Cobb in a field, which is this sort of
00:30:31
cocoon that to get inside of it, you have to be in Peter's
00:30:36
position. And I did a performance where I
00:30:38
was in the inside the, the sculpture and I had a sound
00:30:42
playing. And, but when the performance
00:30:44
finishes, I do invite people to go inside of it if they, if they
00:30:49
want to. And I, because I think I enjoy
00:30:51
the choreography aspect of it, that they're going to be moving
00:30:55
and the piece can carry on. I I enjoy being inside it so
00:30:58
much that I want people to experience what it's like to be.
00:31:03
It's also wanting to share something that I that I enjoy
00:31:07
experiencing with other people. I'm really curious to know if
00:31:13
you have what's your earliest memory of an exhibition, or
00:31:17
maybe not the earliest, but like the strongest experience that
00:31:20
you had visiting exhibitions when you were a child or a
00:31:24
teenager. What's your memory of that?
00:31:27
A lot of memories I have are playing with my brother in
00:31:34
exhibitions. We had to go inside this this
00:31:41
room that got turned into a sort of a maze.
00:31:46
It was a room that was completely blacked out.
00:31:49
You know, it was dark, you couldn't see a thing.
00:31:53
There was some little lights, but because as soon as you would
00:31:57
walk it would trigger certain things that would make things
00:32:02
appear. I think there might have been a
00:32:04
what? Was that I have a faint memory
00:32:08
of that. A ghost.
00:32:10
So there's I, I remember a lot of the kind of the games that we
00:32:13
would create in those in those spaces.
00:32:16
The piece of art that you remember most is something you
00:32:19
entered into and and you are now making art.
00:32:24
Oh, wow. I did not think.
00:32:26
Wow, that's how funny. I did not think about that.
00:32:29
Oh yeah. And a lot of a lot of the, the
00:32:32
places that I Oh my gosh, this is so funny.
00:32:36
A lot of a lot of the things that I make, when you enter
00:32:39
them, it's dark. Wow.
00:32:42
Exactly. I find that really interesting
00:32:45
that the your first memories in exhibitions are of playing in
00:32:51
exhibition spaces because we talk a lot about this in the
00:32:56
podcast, which is you can have so many relationships to arts,
00:33:03
but also to exhibition spaces and to museums.
00:33:06
I was always very relaxed about it because I thought they're
00:33:09
going to encounter something at some point, you know, I don't
00:33:12
have to kind of drive them to. So I mean in terms of in terms
00:33:17
of your work and how you think of your work, how do you think
00:33:24
about that in relation to exhibitions?
00:33:27
I'm not thinking somewhat about where the work will end up, Yes,
00:33:32
but I guess more how I want people to experience the work
00:33:36
and that's what takes me to then.
00:33:37
Oh, OK. So I guess if I want people to
00:33:40
experience it like this, I have to show it like this.
00:33:42
I'm very aware, extremely aware of how hard it is to make it in
00:33:48
those spaces, exhibition spaces. Like sometimes people might
00:33:53
think that because of my upbringing that I can see things
00:33:57
as much more achievable. And I do in a sense, but but not
00:34:02
in the sense of, Oh yeah, it's easy to make.
00:34:06
And then for it to be shown, it's really hard.
00:34:10
It takes a lot of a lot of work to in the making process, but an
00:34:15
awful lot of work in the networking and the being in the
00:34:19
right place at the right time. And a lot of people also think
00:34:22
that I'm because of my upbringing, I'm very aware of
00:34:25
the insurance and outs of finances look like as a
00:34:29
freelance artist and I have friends and and artist friends
00:34:33
that ask me. So I really struggle to to kind
00:34:36
of price my work. How does your dad do it?
00:34:39
How do then? And then I realised I have no
00:34:43
idea what he prices his work as we don't in our house, we do not
00:34:49
talk about money, we do not talk about business.
00:34:53
Yeah, we talk about not having money.
00:34:55
We talk. About not having money.
00:34:57
And I was thinking, I have no idea how to be a freelancer in
00:35:04
the business side of it. And I mean, and it's great that
00:35:08
I can ask when I have those questions that I do have.
00:35:10
And that's a huge privilege to be able to just, you know, give,
00:35:15
give you guys a call. I love to have my flaws as a
00:35:17
parent exposed out there. That's.
00:35:22
But I mean. Actual side of things.
00:35:24
Never, never a word about it. How to survive in the world?
00:35:28
No idea. How to make art?
00:35:30
Sure. But I also think that we do need
00:35:33
to talk more about not not just at home, but in general about
00:35:37
the joy of making. Paid.
00:35:38
Income from doing what you love, but also just making an income.
00:35:43
And I think talking about money has become so kind of dirty and
00:35:47
taboo. And my friends are saying a lot,
00:35:50
you know, Oh, do you know what? Like I wish I, I didn't have to
00:35:54
work actually. And then I hate working and a
00:35:56
lot of means going on. Or maybe it's just me actually,
00:36:02
I can't speak for my whole entire generation, but a lot of
00:36:04
kind of like I just want to be running in the fields, you know,
00:36:09
F working. Can I swear I don't know F
00:36:13
working or even just kind of even friends saying, you know,
00:36:20
actually I'm totally fine with my partner doing the work and me
00:36:24
being the artist, you know, taking care of the house and
00:36:28
then doing my artwork. And I think, oh, it's not where
00:36:32
I feel like we're entering a dangerous territory here where I
00:36:35
know that what people are saying is that they just want to be
00:36:38
able to make their arts and not have to think about the part
00:36:42
time job or having to make money from it.
00:36:44
But we fought so hard to be able to to work, you know, especially
00:36:51
as women and make our money. And I'm not really enjoying this
00:36:56
kind of this, this way that we're kind of going backwards a
00:37:02
little bit. And, and, and, and I think we
00:37:06
need to understand how dangerous it is to say, you know, I wish I
00:37:09
didn't have to work because, because also, and I know that
00:37:14
that's not really what they mean, but I wish we spoke more
00:37:17
about the joy of the joy of working.
00:37:22
And we're also very much a generation that is so focused on
00:37:26
well-being. And I grew up with the morning
00:37:28
routine videos and the evening routine videos and doing all
00:37:31
these things for your, your, your health and your nutrition
00:37:35
and working out and doing this. And it's just like actually the
00:37:40
moments that I feel the most at bliss and the most alive and the
00:37:46
most at one with not just myself, but but with the world,
00:37:51
with, with the, with being here, with being alive is when I'm
00:37:56
working and when I'm doing things that take me outside of
00:37:59
myself. Does that mean that it, it, you
00:38:02
know, I was working on something for five hours and maybe I
00:38:05
skipped lunch or I skipped my, you know, morning workout and
00:38:09
then who cares that I'm it? This is this is it, this is,
00:38:16
this is what I would rather be be talking about.
00:38:19
Actually is, is working and, and, and redefining, I guess
00:38:24
what, what we mean by what work is because I know that when
00:38:28
people are saying, Oh, I wish I didn't have to work, I know that
00:38:30
they're talking about the kind of rat race of the things we
00:38:34
need to do to upkeep. And that's something, of course
00:38:36
we need to question. And, and it's really hard,
00:38:38
especially as an artist, to sustain your work and to make
00:38:42
money from your work. It's it's hard and we can't
00:38:44
romanticize that. But, but I also think that we
00:38:48
need to talk about the joy of working and the privilege that
00:38:52
it is to be able to, to call what we do work because it is
00:38:56
work. It's such important work and
00:38:59
things that allow us to, to, to live in, in, in this world that
00:39:06
finally takes the focus outside of ourselves and this, this,
00:39:10
this, this perfect way that we're being pressured to, to, to
00:39:15
live and carry these perfect healthy lives.
00:39:19
But actually health sometimes actually looks like sweating,
00:39:25
making this sculpture that you decided you need to make for
00:39:28
some reason and, and spending five hours on it and, and, and
00:39:34
maybe you haven't showered that day, but actually that's, that's
00:39:36
health. Yeah.
00:39:39
That is so beautiful. That is really, really, I mean,
00:39:43
thank you so much for saying all of that.
00:39:45
And it's, it's just sparked so many things in my own mind.
00:39:48
And it feels like what you're talking about is, you know, sort
00:39:52
of redefining work almost as our contribution outside of
00:39:57
ourselves. So what are we doing to
00:39:59
contribute and, and viewing work in that way, you know, just
00:40:07
feels so much more empowering, especially with the work that
00:40:10
you do, I imagine. But also you, Joanna and you
00:40:14
know, even for myself and Oh yeah, again, everyone.
00:40:18
Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I totally, I
00:40:21
totally feel these sort of anti capitalism sentiment of, you
00:40:27
know, of this moment and what some of you know, your
00:40:31
contemporaries, perhaps in particular are really feeling
00:40:33
like I, I get that wholeheartedly.
00:40:38
But you're absolutely right. There's a lot of baby that gets
00:40:41
thrown out with that bathwater. You know, if it's, you know, if
00:40:46
it's, if it's all encompassed in, you know, I don't want to
00:40:50
work. I just want to enjoy myself and,
00:40:53
you know, live, live a live a carefree life.
00:40:56
You're missing a lot if that's the if that's the road.
00:41:01
Yeah, it's funny because that makes me think of our Tibetan
00:41:05
Buddhist friends who we met in Paris in the building that we
00:41:10
lived in and he lived somewhere in the 5th floor or 7th.
00:41:14
And I remember that they introduced us to.
00:41:17
So it was a family to Tibetan Buddhism, and we were already
00:41:21
quite drawn to Buddhism and we had a lot of chats with them
00:41:24
about it. And I remember thinking, oh, we
00:41:28
have to know more about the rituals and know more about the
00:41:32
meditative States and what we need to do.
00:41:35
And he turned to me and he said, but you know that one of the
00:41:41
things that you can do as a Buddhist is to be doing your
00:41:48
work as mindfully as you can and as with as much presence as you
00:41:55
can. That's a form of prayer.
00:41:58
And I remember thinking, OK, that's not what I'm asking you.
00:42:01
I want to know what the rituals are, you know?
00:42:05
I want some rites. I want some rituals that just
00:42:08
take me to transcendence, please.
00:42:10
Thank you. And then I was working and I
00:42:13
thought, oh God, I'm so stupid. And, and even the, the, the, the
00:42:18
spiritual side of them seeing so much of the, oh, and we need to
00:42:23
go back to our divine feminine and our idleness and the kind of
00:42:27
just laying around and, and just being feminine.
00:42:30
And which again, I think also can be such a wonderful thing.
00:42:34
But I, I feel the most feminine when I'm carrying the heaviest
00:42:37
things and sweating and, and, and being busy in my working, my
00:42:41
making and using my hands. And we just don't talk about
00:42:46
that enough. Taking away anxiety around
00:42:49
money, around where you might go, just in the work itself, in
00:42:56
your work. What excites you for what's
00:42:59
next? Yeah.
00:43:00
When you when you ask the question, I instantly went to to
00:43:05
my hands and the materials that I work with.
00:43:11
And it is really what excites me the most about what I do is kind
00:43:16
of sensory aspect of really being in touch with with the
00:43:18
materials. Going back to the meditation
00:43:21
story that she shared, it really is something that allows me to
00:43:24
be so in the present moment and and that excites me that it's
00:43:30
something that forces me to to to go out there into the world
00:43:35
and to get in the forest and, and pick up my things for the to
00:43:40
make these ideas that I have in my mind come true.
00:43:42
And it's almost like a, a cheat codes that I, that I, that I
00:43:50
created that forces me to go out there and take my body outside
00:43:54
into the, into the elements and really breathe in the air.
00:43:58
And that excites me so much. That's brilliant.
00:44:05
Thank you. Yeah, I know.
00:44:07
I just have this image of your hands and the material and just,
00:44:11
you know, just exploring wherever that takes you and
00:44:16
that's lovely. So where where can people find
00:44:18
out more about your work? Yes, so I do have an Instagram
00:44:24
account where I try my best to share as much as I can.
00:44:26
Yeah, and I'll, I'll just say that on the Instagram account,
00:44:30
for anyone like me who loves being outside and has done a lot
00:44:34
outside, I get massive FOMO when I see it.
00:44:38
It's just these incredible perspectives on nature and they
00:44:43
it really your Instagram is such a joy.
00:44:46
Yeah. What is your Instagram account
00:44:48
called? It's at Saturn dot conch.
00:44:53
I think I'm no, I'm no, that's correct.
00:44:56
I'm gonna be on the show's notes.
00:44:57
It's fine. I'll put as I always do.
00:45:01
And I also have a website that I'm also trying to be better
00:45:07
with, which is I think WWW dot constanzasaturnino.com.
00:45:15
We'll also put that in the show notes and we're going to
00:45:18
include, we're going to include field trail.
00:45:21
As well. Tell us about Field Trail.
00:45:24
I am also a hand spoke tattoo artist, which I should have
00:45:29
mentioned actually talking about movements because I think that's
00:45:33
another way that I've merging drawing and movement together.
00:45:36
And of course, tattooing is drawing on the body as a canvas,
00:45:41
and it's drawing that moves with you for life.
00:45:43
Yes, you can find my tattoo work at Field Field dot Trail on
00:45:49
Instagram. Yeah, also a brilliant feed.
00:45:52
You have a very, very distinctive marks.
00:45:56
Oh, thank you, that means a lot. Brilliant.
00:45:58
Thanks so much, this was very weird.
00:46:05
No, thank you. No, it's been really, really
00:46:08
amazing and I love what you guys are doing and to to be a part of
00:46:14
it. It's really, really special.
00:46:15
And so thank you so much for having me in this wonderful
00:46:18
space that you've great. Together we can talk about art
00:46:22
and we need more spaces like this.
00:46:24
So yeah, thank you for doing this and for having me here with
00:46:28
you guys today. Well, thank you, my love.
00:46:30
Thanks so much. It's been a real privilege to
00:46:33
actually almost feel like I'm sitting back and watching, you
00:46:37
know, two friends talking, which is really nice.
00:46:40
So thank you both and everyone out there.
00:46:44
Have a great wrap up of 2024. Let's move into 2025 with more
00:46:53
episodes and lots of art. So many incredible exhibitions
00:46:59
coming up in 2025 too, so that should be very exciting to
00:47:03
address on the on the podcast, yes.
00:47:06
And I also invite people to enter the division of of life
00:47:10
and seeing arts everywhere. I think it would take less
00:47:14
pressure off of exhibition spaces and gallery spaces if we
00:47:19
could see that it Arts doesn't just live there, it lives
00:47:22
everywhere we go. 100% that's it.
00:47:26
Yeah, it's time to go. Thank you so much.
00:47:28
Thanks everybody. Take care.
00:47:30
Bye bye. Bye.
00:47:31
Thank you. Bye.
00:47:52
The.