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Hello. Hello.
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Welcome back to Exhibitionistas. Emily here.
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I'm so glad that you could join us.
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We have a great show for you today.
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In the spirit of the holidays, we've invited along Joanna's
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daughter, Constanza Saturnino. She's a young artist living in
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London and this conversation really looks at the perspective
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of art from someone who grew up really, really steeped in in
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art, with her entire family being artistically minded and
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someone who's found her own way within it.
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It's a great insight. I found it a great insight into
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how a young artist is holding her art and is defining her art
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in her own way. And not to mention she is just a
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wonderful person. So thanks so much for joining.
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Thanks so much for listening in, and I hope that you enjoy this
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conversation as much as I did. Hello and welcome to this Family
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Edition episode where I, Joanna, invited my daughter to talk
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about growing up, going to exhibitions and eventually
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studying contemporary Dons to take all this experience into an
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artistic practice. This is an opportunity for me as
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a mum to ask her questions that normally I wouldn't think to ask
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and my lovely Co host Emily is here to poke this dynamic.
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So first of all, hello Konsha. Thank you for being here and
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welcome to this side of the podcast, the recorded site.
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Hello, very excited to be here. Yeah, it's so nice to see you,
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Konsha. I'm really, really excited to
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have this conversation with you. As I was saying earlier, I
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follow you on Instagram. So that's like a a big, big
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treat to kind of delve into the art you've been making and, you
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know, kind of where it all came from, especially as, you know,
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Joanna mentions that you grew up in this milieu of, you know,
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contemporary art your entire life.
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So, yeah. So thanks for being here.
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Thank you for having me. Well, first of all, I have to
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say that you do not have my name or your dad's name and you
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decided to go with another name. So I'm going to introduce you as
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Constanza Saturnino, which is very weird to pronounce with an
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English accent. It is.
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I don't think I've ever. Done that.
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Pronounce it as it's meant to be pronounced.
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Go ahead, Constanza Saturnino. That's it.
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Beautiful ring, I must say. So, well, first of all, I'm
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gonna ask you ladies our usual question, which is how was your
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weakened culture? What have you been watching?
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Reading, Eating maybe? Anything.
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That you want to. Put out there, the thing that we
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watched this week was much belated.
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It came out a year ago is the movie Tar, which Joanna, you and
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I have discussed before and have rival views on because I I loved
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it. I thought it was I thought it
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was really great. So this is Cate Blanchett, and
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she plays this maestro that heads up this the Berlin
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Orchestra. And the it's, it's like more
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than 2 1/2 hours long. And I love the way I love the
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ponderousness of it. I love sort of the length of
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time it takes to build the story.
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And essentially, to me, it was, it was, you know, right in the
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right. In the opening scene, she talks
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about the conductor's role in time and that it's the
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conductor's role is manipulating time.
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And you know, she talks about how, you know, the music doesn't
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start until I make it start. You know, So just these
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absolutely kind of grandiose feelings she has about the role
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that she has as a maestro, but but kind of that that is the
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through line as well. I mean, she is a woman on the
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precipice of a major breakdown. And, you know, she's she's
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looking at midlife and she's, you know, she's pondering her
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own, you know, her own, you know, death, but also like her
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own relevance because she in in one scene, you see she is doing
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a guest lecture at Juilliard and she's confronted with the next
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generation that have very different ideas than she has
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about how to behold music. And and I feel like it's a death
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there. So she's kind of seeing the exit
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of her generation's ideals. She's a Gen.
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Xer. So Joanna, you and I can maybe
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identify or at least understand, you know, it's like where she's
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coming from. And and so it's like a a death
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in that sense, too. And yeah, I just thought it was,
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I thought it was a really unusual film filmed really
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unusually. And there's a there's a review
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that Zadie Smith wrote about it in New York books.
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And the review itself was nominated for a Pulitzer and.
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No idea about this. Yeah, I didn't.
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Yeah. And, and I it's really worth a
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read. I mean, there's, you know,
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there's not many movies, I think that don't really tell you
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exactly where it's going to go. I mean, this could have easily
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been a movie, you know, and I think part of, you know, your
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critique is, is the right one, Joanna, about the role of genius
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and kind of that over emphasized thing.
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And it it has a lot of that, but it's it is ultimately about the
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Achilles heel of that, you know, in the movie.
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And this is one thing that Zadie Smith points out in her review
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is Cate Blanchett and her wife have a daughter.
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And when the daughter is upset in the middle of the night, she
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likes people to come in and hold her feet.
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So you have Cate Blanchett going into the bedroom and holding
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this little girl's feet to calm her down.
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And, you know, kind of mentioning the link to Achilles
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heel, you know, kind of holding that Achilles heel, you know,
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very, very gently. And, you know, but her being
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completely oblivious to her own Achilles heel, which is her
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enormous hubris, the way she manipulates people, all of the
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ways that she benignly like on the on the face of it, she's not
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a tyrant, but she is someone who just plays people.
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She's playing everyone. And yeah.
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And so that that sort of abuse of power and the way that she
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does it, I just, I just really found it super intriguing.
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That's wonderful. I'm not going to say anything
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else about because I've watched it like I think when it came
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out. So what?
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My memory of the film is not very fresh, so I'll just leave
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it to your impression of it. You've almost convinced me.
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How about you, Concha? How was your week in culture?
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It was great. I finished a book in I think 3
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days, which is a world record for me.
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I'm dyslexic so it takes me a really long time.
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I love to read but I'm just a little bit slow.
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And it was The Last Sane Woman by Hannah Regal.
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It's about an artist who is kind of feeling a little bit lost in.
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She works with clay, she's a Potter and feeling a bit
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disconnected from her practice and her life and work.
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And so she ends up in this feminist archive and discovers
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these letters, which are an exchange between two friends,
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but you only have one side of the of that exchange.
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The artist's side and not the friend's side.
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That's right, yes, it turns out that this artist who at the time
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of writing is the same age of this of the main character who's
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in the present and is also a Potter and an artist and kind of
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going through very similar things, but from completely
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different time periods. And then you also have the woman
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on the other side that you don't get to have the the letters, but
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she also appears. Hannah Rigo is so amazing at
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jumping between these three women.
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Throughout the book, the relationships of these women,
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whether romantic or friendships, they're so well incorporated,
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but never kind of never take the forefront, especially when it's
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the the relationships. I really enjoy that they appear
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and you think you're going to find out more about their, you
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know, their love interest and, but they just kind of disappear.
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And it's not the it's not the focal point of their it's really
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about their work and their struggles through life as
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artists and as women. Wow, that sounds incredible.
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And so how old are these women? You said they're all relatively
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the same age, but in different eras.
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I think 25 but I'm wondering am I?
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Projecting. Projecting.
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Because, dear listeners, Quonshe is 25 years old and also makes
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things. Yeah, how funny works is if
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they're not 25. Yeah, I do work with clay, Yeah.
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You did. So Concha came to my room.
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I was in bed. And she was like, you have to
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read this. I don't want to be alone in
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this. You have to read this book.
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And I was like, OK, OK, OK. It was just waking up.
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We're going to bed. I don't remember.
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And I read the first pages. And when she goes into the
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archive, she asks for material about a woman who's struggling
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to do to make things. I think that's the question.
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Just it's just amazing, the best, the best art of a book,
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you know. How about you, Joanna?
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Oh well. So I travelled to Lisbon.
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I dove into my research for my book The Female Drawing Machines
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and visited a brilliant artist called Eden Blake.
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So Irene Blakey I I I guess, who emigrated from Brazil to Lisbon
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in 1973. She is now going through her 8th
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decade on the planet and she arrives in Portugal in that year
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and she finds it sad and lonely. There's only elderly people and
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children because all the young men are at war in Africa, in the
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ex colonies. And then 1974 arrives and the
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revolution takes place. And she never left the country.
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She stayed there her whole life and it was just so profoundly
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moving and nuanced to talk to someone who has gone through the
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60's, the 50's, the 60's, the 70s as an artist under a
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dictatorship and how she came to Portugal because she was
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interested in concrete poetry and she knew about.
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So there's this relation, this transatlantic relation between
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Portugal and and Brazil through concrete poetry, through
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experimental poetry. And so when she went to
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Portugal, it was because she was really interested in what was
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being done in Lisbon or, you know, in the country, but
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particularly in Lisbon. And she knew the poets, Eugenie
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Mellie Cash through maybe solid Tavaj already.
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You know, these people were doing such groundbreaking work
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with words on paper and taking it to kind of the visual arts as
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well. And you think, when I think back
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to those days, I think about constraint and oppression,
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torture, prisons, you know, but for her, it was coming from a
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dictatorship that had become really, really horrible from 68
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onward. And coming to Europe and to talk
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to these peers. Those are the moments in this
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profession, I think, where you just find these folds in time
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and in history that are really, really exciting.
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Great. So can I ask the first question?
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Sure, OK. And when you when you kind of
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think about your growing up, like what place does art have in
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it? And when did you first notice
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it? Because, I mean, you were so
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enmeshed in it, I imagine you know from your parents that it
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could almost just be sort of the air you're breathing and.
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Totally. And so when did you kind of
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start to notice it as a thing? There was this moment when I
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realised that the, the work that my dad was making, because I
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would see most of his life he's worked at home, not in a studio
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outside of the home. And even when he does have
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studios, I think he really likes working.
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And so I would see him work, you know, all the time.
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But I remember as if it was yesterday, the moment that I
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realised that what he spent hours doing, you know, sweat,
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blood and tears, that he that it that he would sell it and that
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it would disappear from his life and that you probably wouldn't
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see a lot of those works again. And I remember realizing that
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and going and going up to him and saying, Dad, did you?
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How did you let go of what you just spent age is making?
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And I guess I was a kid as well. So when I was, you know, making
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my things or I have my toys or I have the drawing I just made and
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I'm so proud of it. I'm keeping those things.
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A lot of what I'm making as a kid, I'm keeping it and
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realising that what he's playing with and making, he has to give
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it away. And I just remember thinking,
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that's how do you do that? How do you say goodbye?
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And he and he and he was so amazing.
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And he said, you know, it gets to a point where I'm, I, I'm
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working on something and I give it my all and I and I love it so
00:16:00
much and I get to spend so much time with it.
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But it gets to the magical part is that it gets to a point where
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it's not mine anymore. I get to share that what I've
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experienced. I get to share that with someone
00:16:13
else. And so it's letting go, but it's
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also letting it carry on in a different way.
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I really, I really enjoyed listening to to his answer.
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Part of me, the kids, part of me was still like, oh, but.
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Still go the the shock for me is sometimes speaking with artists
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who have a hard time letting go of their work.
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I'm always like, really, because I'm so used to seeing someone
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who's like, sure, this is going to go somewhere.
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And I'm, I'm letting go of it because this is my way of
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communicating with people. That's really is his language.
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Yeah, more than any other language, even skateboarding or
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surfing that he practiced for so many hours.
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And you know, that's not his way of that's his way of
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communicating with himself. And art is his way of
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communicating with other people. So I'm not surprised that that's
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what he answered. At the same time, we, we, we do
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get to spend so much time with the work that he makes.
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I would see it every single day. I would see it evolving.
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At certain times. He's working on certain themes.
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And so you're seeing him build these collections.
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And so even though it doesn't end up on the walls, we, we
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have, so we do get to spend so much time with it in the making,
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but also they'll be, you know, they might not be on the wall,
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but they'll be on the table. I get nostalgic sometimes
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because I, I then see images or he's bringing something back
00:17:44
that he was doing a long time ago.
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And I see those works. And I think, wow, I spent, I
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remember the time of my life when you were working with this
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and we were spending months and years with this around the house
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and now it's in someone else's house or you're bringing it
00:17:58
back. And it's nice to see that again.
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And so even though we don't put things on the walls, it, we do
00:18:03
get to spend such a, a wonderful amount of time with the with the
00:18:08
work in a different way than it being on the wall, which is
00:18:10
nice. And can I just say I love this
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answer so much of all of the ways you could answer that.
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Like how did how did art arrive in your mind and heart and soul
00:18:23
that you first noticed? You could have gone, oh, we went
00:18:27
to a museum or, you know, we had a book or mom curated something.
00:18:34
And I mean, but just the fact that, you know, your entry point
00:18:37
is this outpouring of intention and creation that your dad had
00:18:45
just to spirit it away to its life wherever it's going.
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Kind of that, you know, detachment, as you say, or just
00:18:54
kind of that passing along of, you know, Joanna, what you're
00:18:57
saying, what he has to say. And, and really that emphasis of
00:19:03
passing it on. Because it would have been a
00:19:05
different thing, I think, if he if he had felt the way a lot of
00:19:09
other artists feel, which is like, this is mine now, you
00:19:12
know, or that instinct that we all have, like you had when you
00:19:15
were a kid of this is mine. I may have this wrong but what
00:19:17
I'm hearing is like art is almost a thing that it isn't
00:19:22
something you keep at at least your introductory to it which.
00:19:25
Is yeah, it's incredible. So you mentioned drawing, which
00:19:29
is obviously your dad's is that's his main, his main
00:19:33
medium. What do you remember?
00:19:37
I mean, obviously you're a kid, you're colouring, you're making
00:19:40
stuff. I mean, all the kids are artists
00:19:42
all the time doing. Things.
00:19:44
Do you remember a time or was there a time when you were like,
00:19:49
OK, I'm going to try to make art.
00:19:51
I I. I, I wouldn't, I never thought
00:19:53
of of it like that because to me art is so present.
00:20:02
Everywhere that it, I never felt like I had to to to to name
00:20:07
something, to call something arts.
00:20:10
It just is it, it, it, it what I was drawing was art.
00:20:16
Just as you know, me seeing a flock of birds in the sky was
00:20:21
arts. I remember in secondary school,
00:20:25
our art teacher, he would often correct what people were drawing
00:20:32
and kind of take over people's work and go, no, don't do it
00:20:34
like this. And I think he was just, bless
00:20:36
him, a bit of a a frustrated artist who clearly just wanted
00:20:39
to do his own thing and, and. Many art teachers.
00:20:43
Oh, is when he said to one of my friends, oh, yeah, you're not,
00:20:47
you're not very good at drawing or, or, and I just was so
00:20:51
furious. And I said, you know, or I think
00:20:55
he was saying, oh, that's not it's not good or it's not art or
00:20:58
it's something. I can't remember what he said
00:21:01
verbatim, but it was along those lines.
00:21:03
And I had to, and I was very shy, but I had to say to him,
00:21:08
you can't say that everyone can draw.
00:21:13
There's of course different skill sets and different things
00:21:15
you can learn, but you can't say someone can't draw.
00:21:18
That is that is unacceptable. And actually another thing that
00:21:23
got me in trouble with an art teacher, to be honest with you.
00:21:27
I, I had AI had my, this was in, in London and I was learning in
00:21:36
my art class about Henry Mole and I was really enjoying
00:21:41
learning about, about him. And then I came home and I was
00:21:45
like, oh, we're learning about Henry Moore today.
00:21:48
I'm sure you know him. He was the first to, he was the
00:21:54
first to introduce that. I can't even remember now
00:21:57
actually how bad. The round shape.
00:22:02
The round shape sense. But there was there's a term
00:22:05
that I can't remember now, but doesn't matter.
00:22:07
It doesn't matter. And you turned to me furious and
00:22:12
you said that is incorrect. It was Barbara Hepworth.
00:22:17
It was not Henry Moore, your teacher.
00:22:19
It's wrong. It's it's not teaching you
00:22:21
properly. He was absolutely not the first.
00:22:23
And the next day, of course, I went to to school, to my art
00:22:26
teacher. And I said, actually, it wasn't
00:22:29
Henry Moore who was the first. I've been informed.
00:22:33
By a trusted source. So we did speak a lot about it.
00:22:40
The main thing that was present was the, the, the making for
00:22:44
sure. And, and, and back going back to
00:22:46
your question, Emily, I think that I'm wondering now the fact
00:22:52
that dad's never really kind of put up his work.
00:22:58
I, I, I don't remember having those feelings of making
00:23:02
something and thinking, oh, I'm making art and then I'm going to
00:23:04
put it up. I never put anything up really
00:23:10
or so art in that way. It really was about making and
00:23:14
enjoying the making so much and the the the the process of the
00:23:20
making, but also seeing what I'm doing.
00:23:23
But I never felt like it then needed to be called art or or or
00:23:29
or put up as as such displays when you say put up like.
00:23:32
Yeah, display, yeah. It just, yeah, it just was more
00:23:39
about experiencing it and then then then naming.
00:23:45
It brilliant. All right, well, this has been
00:23:47
fantastic. Let's take a quick break and
00:23:50
when we come back, we will talk to Concha a bit more about how
00:23:55
her art evolved and where she took it and where she is now,
00:23:59
which is a really fascinating, interesting place.
00:24:02
And I also have so many questions about and you know,
00:24:05
you may not be able to answer all of them, Khansh, but just
00:24:08
kind of how people, how younger people are experiencing the art
00:24:14
world as it were. So lots more to come.
00:24:19
Yeah, let's take a quick break. See you in a bit.
00:24:44
Welcome back again, we all have our hot drinks and we're ready
00:24:48
to dig into the second-half of the episode.
00:24:53
You poor thing, can I have? A very, very lukewarm coffee.
00:24:57
I might survive I. Might be the only one with a hot
00:25:00
drink actually. You're the only one who's got it
00:25:02
together today. Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:05
You're talking about this book you're reading about a young
00:25:09
woman living the artists life. You are doing that in, in your
00:25:14
own life now, which I mean, that's such an incredible
00:25:17
glimpse into what that means for someone making their way in the
00:25:22
art world in London, which is not so easy.
00:25:25
So you formally studied as a dancer What what, what took you
00:25:29
in that direction? I was always intrigued by dance
00:25:35
from a young age. The art that I wanted to make
00:25:38
was more related to movements, even when in in the artists and
00:25:47
shows and things that I was interested in when you when we
00:25:49
would go to exhibitions or when I would learn about an artist, I
00:25:55
was realizing that I was really interested in work that involved
00:26:00
movements and performance arts. And I remember the first time
00:26:03
that I think it was Dad, he was showing me the work of Richard
00:26:11
Long, that piece that he did when he walked back and forth on
00:26:16
a. Alignment by walking.
00:26:18
Which is goodness. Of a field of of really high
00:26:24
grass, but and there's a line there.
00:26:27
It's not even high. It's not even high.
00:26:29
It's not high. I'm a fantastic.
00:26:32
I don't visualize so I'm kind of making it up as I go.
00:26:34
That image lives rent free and my mind's 24/7 it's.
00:26:37
Just a path. It's just how you make paths in
00:26:40
nature. But he kind of went back and
00:26:42
forth and made that path rather than taking a path that probably
00:26:47
was some somewhere else in the field.
00:26:49
And it's just the black and white photograph called a line
00:26:52
made by walking and that's. And so is.
00:26:56
A very important work. In those moments, seeing the
00:26:59
involvement of the of the body in making art and in making
00:27:03
lines and in drawing. And but I also think it's quite
00:27:06
funny because when I remember when I was a teenager or a
00:27:10
university, I can't remember, but dad was saying, oh, you
00:27:12
know, you're saying, yeah, but you know, it's you really
00:27:15
brought kind of dance and movement into the the family.
00:27:20
That was your path. And, you know, you brought it to
00:27:22
us and that's, we might have brought things to you, but you
00:27:26
also brought things into the, the home and into, into my work.
00:27:30
And I was thinking, actually, that's, that's not true.
00:27:33
The performance was 24/7 at home.
00:27:36
And I, and I, I was so lucky to see the, the, the process of,
00:27:43
of, of, of, of, of drawing and how the body is so heavily
00:27:49
involved in the, in the making. And I used to kind of, I, I love
00:27:53
watching, watching him work. It was like a free performance.
00:27:58
And so I think that sure, I brought some more of the kind of
00:28:02
dance and contemporary dance aspect of things, but movement
00:28:06
was always, was always there. I didn't bring that.
00:28:09
He always had that. And his work is very physical,
00:28:11
so. Tell us a little bit about the
00:28:13
work you're doing now, and maybe also just like how movement in
00:28:19
the body plays a role in that. Work, I really enjoy the, even
00:28:23
the practical process of having to, to carry and lift and, and
00:28:29
forage big chunks of clay. And I love how much it, it
00:28:37
teaches me how, how strong I am, even in the practical sense of
00:28:40
having to carry things around. And, and I, I enjoy feeling the,
00:28:43
the strength that it, that it requires and that I, because I,
00:28:47
for a long time, especially as a woman, you'd think you are not
00:28:50
very strong and you can't carry a lot.
00:28:52
And the fact that I make myself carry a lot of things.
00:28:57
I really enjoy that feeling of a lot of the time I get an idea, I
00:29:00
have to do it and there might be, there might not be anyone
00:29:02
around to help me achieve this, this, this image that I have in
00:29:06
my head of this thing that I want to make, but I have to make
00:29:09
it. And, and so the body has to, to
00:29:13
comply and I have to, to do the thing.
00:29:16
And, and I, I really enjoy that how movement comes in into that
00:29:21
in that sense, in the practical sense.
00:29:23
And then I, I make a lot of things where the body has to go
00:29:29
inside. So some kind of sculptural work
00:29:32
where the body has to go inside of the, of the, of the piece.
00:29:37
And when I'm making it, I do work a lot around my body,
00:29:42
fitting the materials around as I'm working.
00:29:45
And it also feels like working as a choreographer because but,
00:29:53
but just the, the, the dancers that I'm working with don't know
00:29:56
that they're working with me and because they're the audience,
00:29:59
but I, I, I, I make something that is choreographed.
00:30:04
So then I know that the, the boy like the this helmets that I
00:30:08
hung, for example. I know that people are a lot of
00:30:11
people are going depending on heights, but they're going to
00:30:13
Crouch a little bit and then they're going to get inside the
00:30:15
helmets. And that's that.
00:30:17
It's almost like choreographing movements.
00:30:21
Did this piece in an arts residency and it's a sculpture
00:30:26
that I made out of Cobb in a field, which is this sort of
00:30:31
cocoon that to get inside of it, you have to be in Peter's
00:30:36
position. And I did a performance where I
00:30:38
was in the inside the, the sculpture and I had a sound
00:30:42
playing. And, but when the performance
00:30:44
finishes, I do invite people to go inside of it if they, if they
00:30:49
want to. And I, because I think I enjoy
00:30:51
the choreography aspect of it, that they're going to be moving
00:30:55
and the piece can carry on. I I enjoy being inside it so
00:30:58
much that I want people to experience what it's like to be.
00:31:03
It's also wanting to share something that I that I enjoy
00:31:07
experiencing with other people. I'm really curious to know if
00:31:13
you have what's your earliest memory of an exhibition, or
00:31:17
maybe not the earliest, but like the strongest experience that
00:31:20
you had visiting exhibitions when you were a child or a
00:31:24
teenager. What's your memory of that?
00:31:27
A lot of memories I have are playing with my brother in
00:31:34
exhibitions. We had to go inside this this
00:31:41
room that got turned into a sort of a maze.
00:31:46
It was a room that was completely blacked out.
00:31:49
You know, it was dark, you couldn't see a thing.
00:31:53
There was some little lights, but because as soon as you would
00:31:57
walk it would trigger certain things that would make things
00:32:02
appear. I think there might have been a
00:32:04
what? Was that I have a faint memory
00:32:08
of that. A ghost.
00:32:10
So there's I, I remember a lot of the kind of the games that we
00:32:13
would create in those in those spaces.
00:32:16
The piece of art that you remember most is something you
00:32:19
entered into and and you are now making art.
00:32:24
Oh, wow. I did not think.
00:32:26
Wow, that's how funny. I did not think about that.
00:32:29
Oh yeah. And a lot of a lot of the, the
00:32:32
places that I Oh my gosh, this is so funny.
00:32:36
A lot of a lot of the things that I make, when you enter
00:32:39
them, it's dark. Wow.
00:32:42
Exactly. I find that really interesting
00:32:45
that the your first memories in exhibitions are of playing in
00:32:51
exhibition spaces because we talk a lot about this in the
00:32:56
podcast, which is you can have so many relationships to arts,
00:33:03
but also to exhibition spaces and to museums.
00:33:06
I was always very relaxed about it because I thought they're
00:33:09
going to encounter something at some point, you know, I don't
00:33:12
have to kind of drive them to. So I mean in terms of in terms
00:33:17
of your work and how you think of your work, how do you think
00:33:24
about that in relation to exhibitions?
00:33:27
I'm not thinking somewhat about where the work will end up, Yes,
00:33:32
but I guess more how I want people to experience the work
00:33:36
and that's what takes me to then.
00:33:37
Oh, OK. So I guess if I want people to
00:33:40
experience it like this, I have to show it like this.
00:33:42
I'm very aware, extremely aware of how hard it is to make it in
00:33:48
those spaces, exhibition spaces. Like sometimes people might
00:33:53
think that because of my upbringing that I can see things
00:33:57
as much more achievable. And I do in a sense, but but not
00:34:02
in the sense of, Oh yeah, it's easy to make.
00:34:06
And then for it to be shown, it's really hard.
00:34:10
It takes a lot of a lot of work to in the making process, but an
00:34:15
awful lot of work in the networking and the being in the
00:34:19
right place at the right time. And a lot of people also think
00:34:22
that I'm because of my upbringing, I'm very aware of
00:34:25
the insurance and outs of finances look like as a
00:34:29
freelance artist and I have friends and and artist friends
00:34:33
that ask me. So I really struggle to to kind
00:34:36
of price my work. How does your dad do it?
00:34:39
How do then? And then I realised I have no
00:34:43
idea what he prices his work as we don't in our house, we do not
00:34:49
talk about money, we do not talk about business.
00:34:53
Yeah, we talk about not having money.
00:34:55
We talk. About not having money.
00:34:57
And I was thinking, I have no idea how to be a freelancer in
00:35:04
the business side of it. And I mean, and it's great that
00:35:08
I can ask when I have those questions that I do have.
00:35:10
And that's a huge privilege to be able to just, you know, give,
00:35:15
give you guys a call. I love to have my flaws as a
00:35:17
parent exposed out there. That's.
00:35:22
But I mean. Actual side of things.
00:35:24
Never, never a word about it. How to survive in the world?
00:35:28
No idea. How to make art?
00:35:30
Sure. But I also think that we do need
00:35:33
to talk more about not not just at home, but in general about
00:35:37
the joy of making. Paid.
00:35:38
Income from doing what you love, but also just making an income.
00:35:43
And I think talking about money has become so kind of dirty and
00:35:47
taboo. And my friends are saying a lot,
00:35:50
you know, Oh, do you know what? Like I wish I, I didn't have to
00:35:54
work actually. And then I hate working and a
00:35:56
lot of means going on. Or maybe it's just me actually,
00:36:02
I can't speak for my whole entire generation, but a lot of
00:36:04
kind of like I just want to be running in the fields, you know,
00:36:09
F working. Can I swear I don't know F
00:36:13
working or even just kind of even friends saying, you know,
00:36:20
actually I'm totally fine with my partner doing the work and me
00:36:24
being the artist, you know, taking care of the house and
00:36:28
then doing my artwork. And I think, oh, it's not where
00:36:32
I feel like we're entering a dangerous territory here where I
00:36:35
know that what people are saying is that they just want to be
00:36:38
able to make their arts and not have to think about the part
00:36:42
time job or having to make money from it.
00:36:44
But we fought so hard to be able to to work, you know, especially
00:36:51
as women and make our money. And I'm not really enjoying this
00:36:56
kind of this, this way that we're kind of going backwards a
00:37:02
little bit. And, and, and, and I think we
00:37:06
need to understand how dangerous it is to say, you know, I wish I
00:37:09
didn't have to work because, because also, and I know that
00:37:14
that's not really what they mean, but I wish we spoke more
00:37:17
about the joy of the joy of working.
00:37:22
And we're also very much a generation that is so focused on
00:37:26
well-being. And I grew up with the morning
00:37:28
routine videos and the evening routine videos and doing all
00:37:31
these things for your, your, your health and your nutrition
00:37:35
and working out and doing this. And it's just like actually the
00:37:40
moments that I feel the most at bliss and the most alive and the
00:37:46
most at one with not just myself, but but with the world,
00:37:51
with, with the, with being here, with being alive is when I'm
00:37:56
working and when I'm doing things that take me outside of
00:37:59
myself. Does that mean that it, it, you
00:38:02
know, I was working on something for five hours and maybe I
00:38:05
skipped lunch or I skipped my, you know, morning workout and
00:38:09
then who cares that I'm it? This is this is it, this is,
00:38:16
this is what I would rather be be talking about.
00:38:19
Actually is, is working and, and, and redefining, I guess
00:38:24
what, what we mean by what work is because I know that when
00:38:28
people are saying, Oh, I wish I didn't have to work, I know that
00:38:30
they're talking about the kind of rat race of the things we
00:38:34
need to do to upkeep. And that's something, of course
00:38:36
we need to question. And, and it's really hard,
00:38:38
especially as an artist, to sustain your work and to make
00:38:42
money from your work. It's it's hard and we can't
00:38:44
romanticize that. But, but I also think that we
00:38:48
need to talk about the joy of working and the privilege that
00:38:52
it is to be able to, to call what we do work because it is
00:38:56
work. It's such important work and
00:38:59
things that allow us to, to, to live in, in, in this world that
00:39:06
finally takes the focus outside of ourselves and this, this,
00:39:10
this, this perfect way that we're being pressured to, to, to
00:39:15
live and carry these perfect healthy lives.
00:39:19
But actually health sometimes actually looks like sweating,
00:39:25
making this sculpture that you decided you need to make for
00:39:28
some reason and, and spending five hours on it and, and, and
00:39:34
maybe you haven't showered that day, but actually that's, that's
00:39:36
health. Yeah.
00:39:39
That is so beautiful. That is really, really, I mean,
00:39:43
thank you so much for saying all of that.
00:39:45
And it's, it's just sparked so many things in my own mind.
00:39:48
And it feels like what you're talking about is, you know, sort
00:39:52
of redefining work almost as our contribution outside of
00:39:57
ourselves. So what are we doing to
00:39:59
contribute and, and viewing work in that way, you know, just
00:40:07
feels so much more empowering, especially with the work that
00:40:10
you do, I imagine. But also you, Joanna and you
00:40:14
know, even for myself and Oh yeah, again, everyone.
00:40:18
Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I totally, I
00:40:21
totally feel these sort of anti capitalism sentiment of, you
00:40:27
know, of this moment and what some of you know, your
00:40:31
contemporaries, perhaps in particular are really feeling
00:40:33
like I, I get that wholeheartedly.
00:40:38
But you're absolutely right. There's a lot of baby that gets
00:40:41
thrown out with that bathwater. You know, if it's, you know, if
00:40:46
it's, if it's all encompassed in, you know, I don't want to
00:40:50
work. I just want to enjoy myself and,
00:40:53
you know, live, live a live a carefree life.
00:40:56
You're missing a lot if that's the if that's the road.
00:41:01
Yeah, it's funny because that makes me think of our Tibetan
00:41:05
Buddhist friends who we met in Paris in the building that we
00:41:10
lived in and he lived somewhere in the 5th floor or 7th.
00:41:14
And I remember that they introduced us to.
00:41:17
So it was a family to Tibetan Buddhism, and we were already
00:41:21
quite drawn to Buddhism and we had a lot of chats with them
00:41:24
about it. And I remember thinking, oh, we
00:41:28
have to know more about the rituals and know more about the
00:41:32
meditative States and what we need to do.
00:41:35
And he turned to me and he said, but you know that one of the
00:41:41
things that you can do as a Buddhist is to be doing your
00:41:48
work as mindfully as you can and as with as much presence as you
00:41:55
can. That's a form of prayer.
00:41:58
And I remember thinking, OK, that's not what I'm asking you.
00:42:01
I want to know what the rituals are, you know?
00:42:05
I want some rites. I want some rituals that just
00:42:08
take me to transcendence, please.
00:42:10
Thank you. And then I was working and I
00:42:13
thought, oh God, I'm so stupid. And, and even the, the, the, the
00:42:18
spiritual side of them seeing so much of the, oh, and we need to
00:42:23
go back to our divine feminine and our idleness and the kind of
00:42:27
just laying around and, and just being feminine.
00:42:30
And which again, I think also can be such a wonderful thing.
00:42:34
But I, I feel the most feminine when I'm carrying the heaviest
00:42:37
things and sweating and, and, and being busy in my working, my
00:42:41
making and using my hands. And we just don't talk about
00:42:46
that enough. Taking away anxiety around
00:42:49
money, around where you might go, just in the work itself, in
00:42:56
your work. What excites you for what's
00:42:59
next? Yeah.
00:43:00
When you when you ask the question, I instantly went to to
00:43:05
my hands and the materials that I work with.
00:43:11
And it is really what excites me the most about what I do is kind
00:43:16
of sensory aspect of really being in touch with with the
00:43:18
materials. Going back to the meditation
00:43:21
story that she shared, it really is something that allows me to
00:43:24
be so in the present moment and and that excites me that it's
00:43:30
something that forces me to to to go out there into the world
00:43:35
and to get in the forest and, and pick up my things for the to
00:43:40
make these ideas that I have in my mind come true.
00:43:42
And it's almost like a, a cheat codes that I, that I, that I
00:43:50
created that forces me to go out there and take my body outside
00:43:54
into the, into the elements and really breathe in the air.
00:43:58
And that excites me so much. That's brilliant.
00:44:05
Thank you. Yeah, I know.
00:44:07
I just have this image of your hands and the material and just,
00:44:11
you know, just exploring wherever that takes you and
00:44:16
that's lovely. So where where can people find
00:44:18
out more about your work? Yes, so I do have an Instagram
00:44:24
account where I try my best to share as much as I can.
00:44:26
Yeah, and I'll, I'll just say that on the Instagram account,
00:44:30
for anyone like me who loves being outside and has done a lot
00:44:34
outside, I get massive FOMO when I see it.
00:44:38
It's just these incredible perspectives on nature and they
00:44:43
it really your Instagram is such a joy.
00:44:46
Yeah. What is your Instagram account
00:44:48
called? It's at Saturn dot conch.
00:44:53
I think I'm no, I'm no, that's correct.
00:44:56
I'm gonna be on the show's notes.
00:44:57
It's fine. I'll put as I always do.
00:45:01
And I also have a website that I'm also trying to be better
00:45:07
with, which is I think WWW dot constanzasaturnino.com.
00:45:15
We'll also put that in the show notes and we're going to
00:45:18
include, we're going to include field trail.
00:45:21
As well. Tell us about Field Trail.
00:45:24
I am also a hand spoke tattoo artist, which I should have
00:45:29
mentioned actually talking about movements because I think that's
00:45:33
another way that I've merging drawing and movement together.
00:45:36
And of course, tattooing is drawing on the body as a canvas,
00:45:41
and it's drawing that moves with you for life.
00:45:43
Yes, you can find my tattoo work at Field Field dot Trail on
00:45:49
Instagram. Yeah, also a brilliant feed.
00:45:52
You have a very, very distinctive marks.
00:45:56
Oh, thank you, that means a lot. Brilliant.
00:45:58
Thanks so much, this was very weird.
00:46:05
No, thank you. No, it's been really, really
00:46:08
amazing and I love what you guys are doing and to to be a part of
00:46:14
it. It's really, really special.
00:46:15
And so thank you so much for having me in this wonderful
00:46:18
space that you've great. Together we can talk about art
00:46:22
and we need more spaces like this.
00:46:24
So yeah, thank you for doing this and for having me here with
00:46:28
you guys today. Well, thank you, my love.
00:46:30
Thanks so much. It's been a real privilege to
00:46:33
actually almost feel like I'm sitting back and watching, you
00:46:37
know, two friends talking, which is really nice.
00:46:40
So thank you both and everyone out there.
00:46:44
Have a great wrap up of 2024. Let's move into 2025 with more
00:46:53
episodes and lots of art. So many incredible exhibitions
00:46:59
coming up in 2025 too, so that should be very exciting to
00:47:03
address on the on the podcast, yes.
00:47:06
And I also invite people to enter the division of of life
00:47:10
and seeing arts everywhere. I think it would take less
00:47:14
pressure off of exhibition spaces and gallery spaces if we
00:47:19
could see that it Arts doesn't just live there, it lives
00:47:22
everywhere we go. 100% that's it.
00:47:26
Yeah, it's time to go. Thank you so much.
00:47:28
Thanks everybody. Take care.
00:47:30
Bye bye. Bye.
00:47:31
Thank you. Bye.
00:47:52
The.