A pioneer of experimental cinema, but also conceptual technology (yes, I made this one up), Anthony McCall has built a unique place in the recent history and present of contemporary art. From the UK to the US, from analogue to digital, McCall has created a body of work as playful as it is culturally relevant.
For more information about the exhibition go here.
My co-host is Liberté Nutti, who you can follow here for good tips about modern and contemporary art: @libertenuti.
To know more about her, you can check her website.
Support Exhbitionistas here.
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Bluesky: @exhibitionistas.bsky.social
00:00:07
Hello, exhibitionistas. I hope you're doing very, very
00:00:10
well. I'm your host, Joanna Pianevis,
00:00:14
independent writer and curator. So I got a phone call.
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I got a phone call asking me why I hadn't covered Anthony McCall
00:00:23
in the podcast yet and I couldn't really answer.
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And to be honest, I had been secretly wanting someone to
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nudge me in that direction. We have been covering Tate
00:00:35
Modern quite a bit. We'll be covering at Atkins's
00:00:39
exhibition at the Britain, so I thought it's too much.
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But Tate, you've been doing a wonderful job.
00:00:46
I could not avoid covering Solid Light, the exhibition that is
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still open and will be open until June.
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We do go back to the 70s and then we reconnect with the
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beginning of the century. Anthony McCall is quite a unique
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career and we have lots of fun. We talk a lot about cinema,
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about drawing, about immersive experiences in contemporary art.
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We ask ourselves what their future is and what the future of
00:01:19
museums is as well, if we're talking about technology.
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So it's going to be a good one. I think you're going to enjoy
00:01:26
it. And also, you know, I have to do
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my job and remind you that you can support my work.
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You can support exhibitionists. There are several ways of doing
00:01:36
it. But I also want to tell you that
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I'm writing quite a bit on sub stacks.
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So if you're interested in alternating your relationship
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with me through reading rather than listening, I have my page
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over there. So it's Joanna, Pierre Nevis.
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It's easy to find me and you can also support me there if you
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prefer it. I will put a link into the shows
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notes so you can donate. You can just do a one off
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contribution or you can become a member.
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Same thing on Sub Stack. It's up to you.
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I'm so grateful to those who support exhibitionists, to those
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who also support me on Sub Stack, it's incredible.
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So without further ado, I think you're going to really enjoy
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this episode. So let's do this.
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Let's dig into Anthony Mccalls. Solid, light, a tape, modern.
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Hello and welcome to Exhibitionist.
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There's the podcast where we visit exhibitions so that you
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have to and we visit exhibitions separately and compare notes
00:02:49
during the recording just for you.
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And as usual, I have a very special Co host.
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She is returning. I'm talking about Liberty Nutty,
00:03:01
your favorite art advisor, and we will be discussing at her own
00:03:06
request, Anthony Mccall's exhibition, Solid Light at Tate
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Modern. And fear not, it's open until
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the 2nd of June. So you have a lot of time to go
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and see it. First of all, let me welcome
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Liberty to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming
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back. Liberty, how are you doing?
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Hi, Adriana. Nice to see you again.
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And I'm very excited to speak about Anthony McCall and his
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exhibition Solid Lights. What's your perception of
00:03:37
Anthony McCall? Did you?
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Had you experienced his work before?
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A lot? What, what, what, what?
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What's the idea you have of him? Oh, OK, tricky question.
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To start with, I'm a little bit ashamed to say that I've never
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heard about him before, which you know.
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That's so great. If he if he's listened to US one
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day, I really apologize about that.
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I've just, I just had no idea. And I went to Tate in the
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morning on Sunday to catch up with Mike Kelly, which was
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closing two weeks ago. And take when you are a member,
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you can go, they do something which is fantastic.
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You have an hour on Sunday before they open for the
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members. And that's really worth the
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membership in a way. And then I was alone and I, I, I
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went to see my Kelly and then the room above there was solid
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light. And I love the title and I was
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really intrigued and I thought that was a very beautiful title.
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And I just didn't really understand it.
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And I thought, oh, I'll go and see.
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And that's where the adventure started.
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Then I'm completely, if I may say, virgin to his work.
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And I was so stunned and so impressed that I called you and
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I said, let's talk about him. I want to know who he is.
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Because there is a small introduction at Tate, but they
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don't say much. That's why I was even more
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intrigued in a way. And I went with no, no
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preconception, no special ideas. I was very fresh in the morning,
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you know, when you're very curious.
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I was alone, or so you. Have that clarity right that
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morning clarity and you're so available.
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And when you visit an exhibit, I love visiting exhibition with
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friends, but when you go alone, in a way you are for myself, I'm
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much more, you know, I really open the gate and I really
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haven't. I don't know, I'm much more
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sensitive. And then you think you open I'm
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I'm slower also, and that's why the reception was maybe stronger
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for me for this works. Here we go then, I've told you
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my secret. History is so full of these
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figures, a bit like Anthony McCall, who have kind of been
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intermittently here. I remember McCall being
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discussed by colleagues, like senior colleagues, about, well,
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we're in 2025 S 25 years ago, maybe because of the show that
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Chrissy Isles organized at the Whitney Museum called Into the
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Light. I was in Portugal at the time
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and I remember someone telling me about this exhibition, which
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was about experimental films. So sculptural propositions,
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experimental conceptual propositions involving film in
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some way. I remember experiencing the work
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and I didn't have time to research.
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Did the exhibition travel and come to Portugal?
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I don't remember. But I remember seeing his most
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famous work Line describing a cone in the flesh and thinking,
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wow, if experimentalism can be this, then I'm I'm all in.
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I'm all in. So shall we dig into the life of
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Anthony McCall? You know, Listen not to bury the
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lead. You're not going to learn much
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more than you already know, I'm telling you.
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Yeah, it's quite a secret. Not secret, but discreet I would
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say. So let's dig into.
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Tell us more. Anthony Mccall's life, so he was
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born in 1946 in Saint Paul's Cray.
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I looked it up and it's near Orpington near London.
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OK. But you know, Saint Paul's Cray
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could be anywhere. It's very vague.
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Again, like we were saying, he's very reserved.
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And I didn't do you know what? This time I kind of felt like
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respecting it, you know, because there's this this, there's this
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aura in his life. And when you read interviews of
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him, he's either incredibly technical or he talks about some
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events that I'm going to tell you they are so huge and had
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such impact on his life and his creative output that it kind of
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becomes a bit about that. So, so he studied at, he studied
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graphic design and photography at Ravensbourne College on the
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outskirts of London. And so I'm, I'm quoting him.
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So this is already his young adult years.
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He became quote, steeped in other ways of using cinema.
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It was called the experiment, experimental film, it was called
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expanded cinema, structural film, New American cinema.
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So he was involved with a group of people called Exits who were
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interested in cinema, but they were a little bit like some
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visual arts artists, interested in the moving image and the
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display and the apparatus of projection in cinema, but not
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really in cinema itself in terms of a projected image that tells
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the story. So much so that he, in 1972,
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thought of a piece to be filmed called Landscape for Fire, which
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is presented in the exhibition as a film which was a sort of
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orthogonally displayed or placed spots of fire in the field that
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were then filmed. I mean, the installation was
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filmed, the lighting, the fires were filmed.
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There's a sound, but the film is incredibly experimental.
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It's atmospheric, so he's in the relationship with an outdoor
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space, but obviously it's already about light, so there's
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something happening there. This movie is very just for
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diligence. It's it then it's the in the
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first room. It is very 70s.
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You know, the way they're dressed and all that.
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Just that people can understand. Absolutely.
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So something happens in 1973, which is that he meets and
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that's the thing that really, especially when you look at
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pictures of him, so very kind of simple and elegant, not too
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sophisticated attire. He he seems like a very
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reserved, calm man. I don't know how to describe it
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otherwise. And he falls in love with Carol
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Lee Schneeman, of all people, and he follows her to New York.
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So in 1973. Incredible.
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He goes to New York, which for me was the most surprising thing
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about this whole story. She had lots of friends there.
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So when he arrives in New York, he a whole world opens to him.
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So he says, and I'm quoting him. It was a revelation to find a
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bar full of people talking about art.
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So he describes in New York exactly as we imagine it to be,
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full of people and full of a community, with a community of
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people who are completely, 100% engaged in their own work, but
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also in other people's works. And that's what really warmed
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his heart and made him feel like he belonged immediately.
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So he says, quote, I was pleased to be there with Carolee, and I
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got to meet a lot of her performance friends.
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Solowitz and Mel Bokner visited my studio within three months of
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landing. I always considered that
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tremendously generous. So he felt welcomed by the New
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York Intelligentsia, the New York groundbreaking trailblazer
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artist of the time, and he started creating together with
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them. So one of the things that he
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talks about is that he had a, a technical issue, say, I don't
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know what, you know, what to use to light fires in a field.
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And someone would say, oh, I know this dude who helped so and
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so Judy Chicago back in LA, whatever to do her own Fresno,
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to do her own installations. I'll take you there.
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And then they would talk. The three of them would get
00:12:30
together and then kind of go together to make an Anthony
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McCall piece in a field. So it was a very creative time.
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He experimented quite a lot. And in 1973 he devises line
00:12:47
describing a cone. So that's the major turning
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point in his activity where he first works with a 16mm camera,
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a projector and camera. And he works with the cone of
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light that is projected by the machine.
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And the whole piece is absolutely what he calls an
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animation film drew in some ways on the wall through a
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projection, through a camera, A dots.
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So it starts with a dot of light that very slowly starts forming
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a circle and in that movement. So it takes 5 minutes for you to
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kind of realize how it's how it's working and what it's
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doing. And once the, the the sort of
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orbit starts to happen, you start to realize that there is a
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sort of a silky cone in space that seems incredibly material
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and you start playing with it. You cannot but go into the the
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cone. And I remember seeing the work
00:13:55
and thinking, can I should I, you know that behavior in
00:13:59
exhibitions, you never know if you can touch, if you can move,
00:14:02
if you can cross, but you're supposed to.
00:14:05
And one of the really, really enjoyable things about this is
00:14:10
not only you experiencing the work, but also watching other
00:14:13
people doing it, because the smoke and the atmosphere gives a
00:14:20
materiality and a tangibility to this cone of light.
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And we'll talk about that aspect in a bit.
00:14:28
So he starts devising several works and something happens in
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1977 and he's invited to present line describing a cone at the
00:14:40
Modena Musette in Stockholm in Sweden.
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So he travels there, everything's installed, the
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everyone's sitting and it starts for the audience.
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So it's presented like a film. So it has a start.
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And he says, well, the first 5 minutes are incredibly
00:14:59
unsettling because nothing happens.
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But it's the 70s, right? We're used to this.
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So the audience stays. This is in Stockholm, everyone's
00:15:08
polite, they wait. After 5 minutes, nothing
00:15:12
happens. The film goes on.
00:15:15
Minutes and minutes pass Nothing.
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It's absolutely invisible. And the reason why it's
00:15:22
invisible, it's because in New York he would present his films,
00:15:26
his his installations in world warehouses that were incredibly
00:15:31
dusty. The atmosphere was full of dust.
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There would be at least 10 people smoking cigarettes and
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that dust and that cigarette smoke would materialize the
00:15:43
lights. No one was smoking at the Mudana
00:15:47
Musette. There was no dust.
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It was an impeccable, clean, ascetic space and therefore the
00:15:54
film was invisible. He says that people stayed for a
00:15:58
long time until the end, very politely, nothing happened.
00:16:03
Meanwhile, he was running to a shop, buying cigarettes.
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He came back, lit a bunch of cigarettes.
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The security guard grabbed him by the collar, saying what are
00:16:14
you doing? You cannot light cigarettes in
00:16:16
here. It was a whole thing thing and
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it was kind of a disaster. At the end of the of this
00:16:23
decade, he stops working. So he becomes a graphic designer
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and he says, well, I needed to make a living.
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There's there's this huge hiatus from Huron.
00:16:34
So from the end of the 70 seventies.
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And when he was asked whether it was difficult for him, how he
00:16:42
lived this kind of distancing from his own practice, not only
00:16:47
the art world, but also his own practice, he said, well, every
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so often someone would want to interview me about my art.
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And that was always rather painful.
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I was always quite troubled by the reminding, by the reminder.
00:17:03
And so when he was asked if he had any artistic urges, because
00:17:06
this was isn't with this hiatus lasted until the end of the 90s,
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he replied, quote, yes, but there's something important
00:17:17
called denial. The studio was very demanding,
00:17:21
deadline orientated work. There wasn't any time UN quote.
00:17:27
So what he started doing, and that's even more painful I find
00:17:31
is he would do like Richard Serra's books, for example, had
00:17:35
a graphic design studio and he had a lot of work.
00:17:37
It was quite successful. He was working with other
00:17:40
artists and so he had this time, so 20 years, a span of 20 years,
00:17:47
mostly without producing any work.
00:17:51
And this is the important part. He came back to an art practice
00:17:57
at the end of the 90s because technologically he was
00:18:03
interested again. So he found that there were
00:18:07
something called fog machines that could work with his
00:18:11
installations. And so at the turn of the
00:18:15
century, he participates in this exhibition in 2000 by Chrissy
00:18:20
Iles, who's a very, very important curator.
00:18:23
And who, who's the exhibition Into the Lights, like reached
00:18:28
Portugal, You know, at some point, it was a big deal.
00:18:31
It had lots of reviews. It marked an era and it's funny
00:18:36
that it was in 2000 and it was very technological and at the
00:18:39
same time it was very analog. And So what happens in Anthony
00:18:44
Mccalls life is that he goes from the analog to the digital.
00:18:48
That's a really interesting story as well.
00:18:51
That will probably help us in our conversation to the fine or
00:18:55
to try and play with what exactly it is that he's doing in
00:19:00
terms of the material, the genre, what what is happening in
00:19:05
his work. What's interesting also here in
00:19:07
this Baku, which I was wondering when he has such a strong, I
00:19:13
would say conceptual. I think he's really a conceptual
00:19:17
artist and you're so much in in the landscape and successful and
00:19:23
the beauty of his career is to have not made too many works and
00:19:29
they are quite spaced in time. And I was wondering how do you
00:19:33
make a living as an artist? Because to keep such a line, not
00:19:37
to do commercial projects, you know, it's if you do one work
00:19:43
every 10 years on a retrospective way, it looks OK.
00:19:48
But on a day-to-day, how do you make a living?
00:19:52
I think his profile as an artist is a really interesting one, and
00:19:57
it's a profile that kind of defies, I think, our idea of
00:20:01
what an artist is. And I find that incredibly
00:20:04
exciting because we usually talk about women retrieving from the
00:20:08
art world, female artists having a hard time being followed,
00:20:12
having exposure. And here we have a man who had a
00:20:15
certain point. Just stepped back.
00:20:19
I think there's a beautiful encounter between concepts and
00:20:22
technology and his work that is absolutely fascinating.
00:20:25
And this because so the landscape for fire was a very
00:20:32
mathematical piece. When you look at it, you think
00:20:37
of Judy Chicago, who was also using smoke.
00:20:41
And there's a real connection between them outside in, in the
00:20:47
in the, in the landscape, in the fields.
00:20:50
But him, he was calculating, he was crunching numbers.
00:20:55
He was really, really programming things to the
00:20:57
millimeter. And what attracted him to the
00:21:00
fog machine that was activated with oil.
00:21:03
So it had a little smell, but not strong enough for him not to
00:21:08
use it. So he started using it to
00:21:10
reactivate his pieces until the haze machine was invented.
00:21:14
And the haze machine is with the sorts of starch.
00:21:17
So it's, it's, it doesn't have any odor and it is very dense.
00:21:22
It produces a very dense smoke. But another thing that happened
00:21:26
as well is that he started working with programmers.
00:21:31
So now he wasn't painting on film.
00:21:35
Now he was again calculating and drawing, so he was drawing a lot
00:21:42
and he was working with the cone.
00:21:45
That's the major thing. And he sometimes he says someone
00:21:49
questions him about him about this, and he says, yeah, I could
00:21:52
have been interested in the pyramidal shape, maybe like you
00:21:55
could have sculpted the projection.
00:21:57
But that's what's interesting, because that was what the
00:22:00
machine was doing, I think, personally.
00:22:03
Yeah, it's the cinema. It's the idea of the cinema, the
00:22:05
cone. You can think also cinema
00:22:09
Paradisio. You know the end of the movie
00:22:12
when you just see that code. This is a continuation of that
00:22:15
in a way and that's makes his were quite romantic.
00:22:20
Yeah, yes. Oh, and there's another thing in
00:22:22
this new era is that he says. Well, the titles of the pieces
00:22:26
before were very descriptive, a line describing a code.
00:22:30
So that was the time where conceptualism was at its peak.
00:22:34
It was all about being literal and descriptive.
00:22:37
So line describing a cone that. Seems I would call that DRY.
00:22:41
Dry as conceptual artists often accused of being.
00:22:46
And it is to some point. It plays that game, doesn't it?
00:22:50
And now, of course, the works that he's presenting in the
00:22:54
exhibition, you have, for example, face to face.
00:22:57
And he says that when he installed one of the 1st works
00:23:01
that he recreated, he saw the image breathing.
00:23:06
So the the 1st work that he produces is called breathing.
00:23:09
So he says, well, it was an Organism.
00:23:12
I could see that it was a body. And he doesn't prevent himself
00:23:18
from going there and from being, like you say, much more romantic
00:23:22
about it, or at least much more lyrical about the relationship
00:23:26
with the works. And he talks about also the fact
00:23:31
that he, his work is not site specific.
00:23:35
So it's geared towards the body of the the spectator.
00:23:40
And he says it's site sensitive, but it doesn't play with the
00:23:44
architecture. So it's not about playing with
00:23:48
something that is there. It's about creating, like you
00:23:52
were saying, an immersive environment for the spectator.
00:23:55
And so one thing to know about his work is that you need to be
00:23:58
in the dark. Like you said, it completely
00:24:01
subverts what you who think an exhibition is, which is
00:24:06
something very well lit on a wall to of course simplify it.
00:24:10
It's very subversive in many, many ways in terms of
00:24:13
installation. So he takes off again, a new
00:24:17
new, new start of a career. I want to highlight a moment in
00:24:22
his career because my rabbit hole of research took me there
00:24:26
to Tasmania in 2015. There's a a festival called Dark
00:24:34
Mofo in Tasmania and he created something called Night Ship for
00:24:43
the Dewent River. And so for 10 nights, Night Ship
00:24:49
was a ship that would sail along the shore with a Searchlight.
00:24:57
So it was obviously a cone of light into the night that you
00:25:00
could see in the darkness. I like the idea that the night
00:25:05
is kind of a dark room of a museum as well.
00:25:07
I like this this notion. So yes, we come to now the Tate,
00:25:14
the exhibition at the Tate You. Know now he's, he's, I don't
00:25:18
know. He's in his sixties, 70s I would
00:25:20
say. Well, he was born in 46.
00:25:24
OK, then he's Yeah, he's. In his. 70s, late 70s.
00:25:28
He also has two very good galleries, one in London and
00:25:34
Germany and then one in America. Then maybe also when you get to
00:25:37
this really established galleries, they also, you know,
00:25:43
their work is to make sure you are represented in in museum.
00:25:48
Then there is a momentum of I think what he's doing which is
00:25:53
relevant and also where he is because before if he was just a
00:25:57
graphic designer, becoming quite obscure.
00:26:01
I would say that his work is being regularly shown and
00:26:06
touring kind of the planets and the galleries that you mentioned
00:26:10
is Putmaggers in Germany and and and the UK and Sean Kelly in New
00:26:16
York. If I'm.
00:26:17
Not, yes, exactly. New York.
00:26:18
Kelly. Yeah, they're two really big
00:26:20
galleries. Liberty, apologies, I didn't
00:26:23
tell you much more than you already knew.
00:26:26
I think it is a life. No, I think On the contrary, I
00:26:30
think it's it's like his work, there is an elegance to even his
00:26:34
life. It's quite discreet.
00:26:36
And when you hear him talking, you know, even though, because I
00:26:40
was wondering, is he an American artist or an English artist?
00:26:43
And when he speaks, he's, he has a strong English accent.
00:26:47
He's he's very English. And even in the way he speaks,
00:26:50
he's very restrained, which reserve which keeps the the
00:26:56
yeah, not restrained, more reserved.
00:26:59
And the way also he presents things are very reserved.
00:27:02
Then I think you gave us a lot of clues and and that really
00:27:08
kind of goes very well with his work.
00:27:10
So what was the what was the the, the thing that kind of stay
00:27:15
with you regarding his biography?
00:27:20
That is an artist who started from the 70s in the 70s and then
00:27:25
the, the, this amazing in the, the, the, the, the first cone
00:27:32
light ease 1973, which is a long time ago.
00:27:38
And then that's what I love in his work is the the whole
00:27:43
discovery of the the haze and the way he was using before the
00:27:49
the smoke and then the dust, which kind of gives his work a
00:27:54
very bohemian feel. Yes.
00:27:58
And you know when it because it's so clean and conceptual,
00:28:01
but then you have this, this fantastic.
00:28:04
You can see it's New York, it's fun, they're smoking, it's part
00:28:09
of the crowd. And you can feel that in, in
00:28:12
that work. And I just didn't really know
00:28:15
when I hear you, I'm like, of course, that's his humanity.
00:28:18
That, that's why the work is so fantastic.
00:28:20
I think because it started so early and it's, it's, it's, it's
00:28:25
rooted in that bohemian, very artistic moment of New York.
00:28:30
You go back in time and you see where it comes from.
00:28:33
It's quite touching and moving. So I think we should go for a
00:28:38
break. Dear listeners, if you want to
00:28:40
get a cuppa, if you want a coffee, if you need to go, you
00:28:44
know, just just take this little break.
00:28:47
We'll be back very, very shortly.
00:28:50
So stay tuned, stay with us. Music.
00:29:21
Welcome back everyone. So I'm here with Liberty Mutti
00:29:24
and we are talking about Anthony Mccalls exhibition Solid Light
00:29:29
at Tate Modern. I kind of breezed through the
00:29:33
1st 2:00 rooms. I had seen Landscape of Fire,
00:29:37
the film which is in the second room before, can't remember
00:29:40
where. And the first room is very
00:29:44
technical drawings, some photos of the the works that you're
00:29:48
going to see then in the third room.
00:29:51
And so it will it is a curated exhibition.
00:29:54
It was curated by the great Gregor Moyer.
00:29:57
And so this exhibition pays attention also to the technical
00:30:01
aspect of Anthony Mccall's work. But because I knew what was
00:30:07
waiting for me in the last room and because maybe I saw so many
00:30:12
drawings of his at Martina Buchaya Gallery in Paris, which
00:30:16
I love and that are really beautiful.
00:30:19
He has really beautiful drawings.
00:30:21
These ones were far more technical.
00:30:23
So although I'm a drawing person, I, I honestly did not, I
00:30:28
have to confess, spend much time in the first room.
00:30:31
What was your your experience? The first room is very
00:30:34
technical, it's very small. And like you, I skipped it
00:30:37
because I just wanted to see the work and I just didn't have the,
00:30:44
the attention or to really, you know, get very nitty gritty.
00:30:47
And it's, it must have been a difficult decision.
00:30:51
As a curator, do you put that at the beginning to explain or do
00:30:55
you let people experience? Then you do a bright room with
00:30:59
all the drawings. You know, as a visitor, I would
00:31:01
have preferred that because you experience everything.
00:31:04
You're completely open, you're completely, you know, and then
00:31:07
you say, OK, what it is about and then you have the CD and
00:31:10
then you have the drawings. And that would have been better
00:31:14
because when I left then then you you end up in front of the
00:31:19
of the lift and then that's it. Then I skipped the first room
00:31:22
got in the second room where you have a classic movie on the wall
00:31:29
and the movie is a field, very green field with white.
00:31:37
I think it's they're all men, they're all dressed completely
00:31:40
in white, which is very 70s and very.
00:31:44
Cult like. Yeah, very cold, very John
00:31:47
Lennon. You know, they're, they're all
00:31:48
very, very long. They have long hair.
00:31:51
They have, I think maybe some beard.
00:31:54
And then they have this, this flash trousers and then the the
00:31:59
jacket which goes with it. Then it's totally 70s and they
00:32:02
are lighting every, I don't know, two or three meters.
00:32:07
They're putting these these fires and you have these fires
00:32:11
clearly in special sports on that that.
00:32:13
Was in 1972 and it's called Landscape for Fire.
00:32:17
And those people are the members of the exit group of
00:32:21
experimental cinema that he's that he's worked with.
00:32:25
Yeah. It's quite powerful.
00:32:27
It's, it's very conceptual, it's very 70s, but there is no
00:32:32
explanation. Then it kind of puts you in the
00:32:35
mood, but it's difficult to understand what it is.
00:32:39
And I was like, right then you watch it a little bit and then
00:32:44
there's a corridor or kind of A and then you just know you're
00:32:48
going to enter to something else.
00:32:50
And that's where I went. But in retrospect, this movie
00:32:55
from the 70's, the landscape for fires really stayed with me
00:33:02
because he anchors. He anchors the work.
00:33:05
He kind of and it's a very strong image.
00:33:08
They're like a bit like you said, druids.
00:33:13
They're like druids. You feel you could be in Stone
00:33:15
Age or some some weird Celtic village in in Wiltshire.
00:33:21
I don't know where it was were shot, but and he and he makes
00:33:27
sense with the work afterwards. I think then that kind of gives
00:33:30
some weight to the whole project.
00:33:34
Then from that, that room we there's a corridor and then you
00:33:40
get in very, very dark rooms where there's this projection of
00:33:47
light through a cone. Then as always in a very dark
00:33:51
room, you need some time to adapt and understand where you
00:33:55
are. Are you safe?
00:33:58
You know, like when you are a child, you kind of you touch a
00:34:01
wall to make sure this is OK. And you know, your your light,
00:34:06
your eyes will adapt to that environment.
00:34:09
And soon you will see see the grey in the black.
00:34:13
And then there's this first great work, which is I think the
00:34:16
very captivating. And it's it's in the first
00:34:19
corner in the movie at the entrance, Anthony Michael say,
00:34:23
don't look at the drawing. Look at the cone.
00:34:26
Look at where the light comes. Then I turn there and then you
00:34:30
think, oh, I'm going to be completely blinded by that
00:34:33
light. But the way it does it, you are
00:34:37
not. Then you get you have this light
00:34:39
in your in your face. And that light also creates
00:34:44
space because the way it's quite technically expense.
00:34:47
I'm not sure I completely understood how he did it, but
00:34:50
because it this projector turns, it makes in the lights makes
00:34:56
these diagonals, which are like solid blocks of they're like
00:35:03
solid blocks. But actually you can put your
00:35:05
hands through because it's only air and that's created by the
00:35:08
A's. Then it's and it's very fun.
00:35:12
You start to put your hand through it and your head and,
00:35:16
and the, the, the haze create that great atmosphere, which is
00:35:21
which breaks this really dry and very geometric aspect of the
00:35:28
work. And also the cinema thing,
00:35:30
because you are looking at the projector, the cinema, you look
00:35:33
the other way and it's just fantastic.
00:35:36
And, and I was alone then I just really got very playful in it.
00:35:41
And it's just beautiful. The lines are diagonal.
00:35:44
They're like big blocks of imagine if you had a, a big
00:35:48
glass, then it's, it's very straight.
00:35:53
The other I'm, I'm more round in the round.
00:35:55
This is very, very straight. Then you kind of go, my hands
00:35:59
was going from one side to the other.
00:36:01
You go underneath, above. Yeah, it's, it's and you touch
00:36:08
the work. Normally you're not allowed to
00:36:09
touch works because it's on the wall and here first you're in
00:36:12
the dark and then you can go through it.
00:36:15
And that's where he gets technical with him, right?
00:36:18
So he explains the way he devises the work and he's
00:36:22
incredibly careful with the right distance of the projector
00:36:26
line describing a cone, he says because it's film and it's
00:36:34
painted on, so the film is worked on, he said.
00:36:37
And because it's that kind of projector and that kind of
00:36:41
material, so the film is celluloid.
00:36:45
He says the light is very silky. The cone of lights that it
00:36:49
creates is incredibly silky. Whereas with the other
00:36:52
projectors, because it's pixels, it becomes the pixels.
00:36:56
Make it a bit, you can see the pixels and it's a bit clumpy.
00:36:59
So in both cases the the texture changes, but the light is
00:37:05
incredibly, it's almost a blue, It almost has a blue kind of
00:37:10
hue. It's really, really beautiful
00:37:13
and it's very soft. And the fog, as you say, gives
00:37:16
it a sort of a gentle atmospheric, almost Caspar David
00:37:24
Friedrich like contemplative aspect to it, only you can
00:37:28
interact with it. It's a massive impact compared
00:37:32
to the means that are used to produce the impacts.
00:37:36
So yeah, I mean and all the works are in the same room.
00:37:40
The atmosphere is so full and you see so much of that miss.
00:37:43
You're like, oh, I'm going to be a little bit temp at the end,
00:37:47
which you're not. And the machine, maybe I was.
00:37:51
We were three in the exhibition. The machine also makes a teeny
00:37:54
noise, which is like like the wind.
00:38:01
OK, because that's I think that's when then you need some
00:38:03
time to relax. You need to be really, you need
00:38:07
time to adapt to your environment.
00:38:09
When you're there, you notice the mist, you notice the age,
00:38:12
you notice the light, you notice this, this very stuff sound,
00:38:17
which is. And then, yeah, you think I'm in
00:38:21
the Highland in Scotland somewhere.
00:38:23
You know that's. But tell us how he does it.
00:38:26
So there's another thing that separates so the analogue with
00:38:30
the digital is that so and and here we enter into the
00:38:35
discussion about what it is that he's doing.
00:38:39
And you very rightly said before the break that he comes from
00:38:46
experimental film, from graphic design and from a bohemian,
00:38:52
incredibly attuned group of people who were making things
00:38:57
together. Remember this was also the time
00:38:59
where Yoko Ono, and he does mention Yoko Ono as well, was
00:39:05
making you watch a drop of water dry, you know, together in in a
00:39:11
sort of these very meditative experimental at times when
00:39:17
described a bit dry were turned into something incredibly warm
00:39:23
because they were the activities of a group of like minded people
00:39:27
who wanted to go into a higher state of mind.
00:39:31
They wanted to experiment other realities through these very
00:39:36
strange, sometimes funny when you describe them, actions and
00:39:41
happenings. And so he was coming from there
00:39:45
and but he was also coming from this idea of deconstructing
00:39:49
cinema and looking at cinema in a different way.
00:39:53
And so he used 16mm film and cameras and projectors.
00:39:59
And so one of the things that was incredibly present when I
00:40:04
experienced line describing a cone for the first time is the
00:40:08
sound of the machine. It makes it, you know, it has
00:40:13
that sound of the projector of analog cinema.
00:40:18
So the the projectors in cinemas were behind, were up there in a
00:40:23
little room behind glass, a very thick glass because they were
00:40:27
very noisy. And so you're experiencing
00:40:30
something that you don't feel in this exhibition, which is that
00:40:36
you are looking at the mechanics of a great of, of the, of the
00:40:42
machine that created a great deal of your culture until the
00:40:48
70s. In that time, you're suddenly
00:40:51
looking in, inverting your relationship to it.
00:40:55
And instead of being in a dark room, sitting and letting the
00:41:00
image do everything for you and the machine do everything for
00:41:05
you, and just absorbing a story, you are suddenly moving.
00:41:10
You are looking at the device and you are playing with the
00:41:14
cone of lights. And it's very much connected
00:41:17
with the theories of the time. So Marshall Mcluhan, who in his
00:41:22
Seminole texts declared that the medium is the message.
00:41:27
You weren't using a technique in order to get to something else.
00:41:33
The technique was the purpose of your use.
00:41:38
So if you are using electricity, you don't use electricity to get
00:41:43
to something else. You electricity is light and it
00:41:47
brings you light. And so the the the container and
00:41:52
the contained are exactly the same thing.
00:41:54
And so the machine that is bringing the image is actually
00:41:59
the message and not the the story that it is projecting.
00:42:03
And you need at that time there was this whole theory as well
00:42:08
that said, you know, pay attention to the spectacle of
00:42:14
the images that are surrounding you because they depend upon
00:42:19
this. And this is what is creating
00:42:21
your relationship to the world. So at the time, that line
00:42:26
describing a cone was a drawing on the wall with a projector
00:42:31
with light. But it was also a discourse
00:42:33
about the culture. And I, if I may say very quickly
00:42:40
that my PhD was about Solowitz and Douglas Hubler in connection
00:42:46
to a French inventor of the 19th century called Etienne Jules
00:42:52
Maher. And this man was fascinating
00:42:55
because he invented graphic recording machines or he
00:42:59
systematize them. He expanded their use.
00:43:02
They were invented in Germany. So he would take a picture of a
00:43:06
jump in its different stages and he would produce a graphic
00:43:11
rendering of the jump. So you have the photo machine,
00:43:14
the photo or the the the cinematic image, and then you
00:43:18
have the graphic that went with it.
00:43:20
But he so now if you look up it's Engine Marie or Edward
00:43:24
Muybridge, you're going to say they're artists and they were
00:43:27
amazing. Who are these geniuses?
00:43:29
But actually, let's forget Muybridge.
00:43:32
It's Angel Marie was a scientist.
00:43:34
And So what he was doing is that he was not interested in the
00:43:39
beauty of the image that he didn't find beautiful.
00:43:42
By the way, he didn't consider them beautiful and he wasn't
00:43:45
interested in the image as it represents reality.
00:43:48
He then would use a technique to extract the movement, so he
00:43:57
would make these graphic renderings of the movement and
00:44:00
he would discard the photo itself with the person in the
00:44:05
different stages of the jump or whatever movement it was.
00:44:08
So he had the capacity of inventing cinema.
00:44:13
At a certain point he fell out with George de Mini, who was his
00:44:15
assistant who wanted to create these moving images and show
00:44:19
them to people. And Maher said why?
00:44:22
Why? I know what reality looks like.
00:44:24
What I want is to use it to dissect movement and understand
00:44:29
it. I'm not interested in something
00:44:31
that replicates what I already see.
00:44:34
And in the 70s you reconnect with this scientific stunts, but
00:44:39
in a cultural dissection of the culture that eventually got
00:44:47
interested in the moving image as it represents the world and
00:44:50
not the graphic rendering that it could have become.
00:44:55
So it's really interesting to see that that's work is very,
00:44:58
very deep into that era. And then when new technologies
00:45:04
appear, which were kind of what dragged him again into his
00:45:07
artistic practice, things are completely different.
00:45:10
They're not noisy, they're not smelly, they don't need
00:45:13
cigarette smoke, and they create a completely different
00:45:17
environment. And it's interesting how you
00:45:19
describe it because you don't have that presence of the
00:45:23
machine as much, right? How do?
00:45:28
You ideally just have this line slowly building on, on the
00:45:32
opposite of the code. Then you know there is a
00:45:34
technicality, but you don't see the machinery.
00:45:38
You don't it, it's all about it's, I think the title of the
00:45:43
exhibition is brilliant. It's solid light.
00:45:46
That's what it is about. It's about touching the light,
00:45:50
what it is and and despite this conceptual, you know, way he
00:45:58
works and his practice, which is very pure and which is you
00:46:04
really go in depth and he's he's going slowly and he's building
00:46:08
all these things. You end up in an environment
00:46:11
where you don't feel the machine you are that that's why I loved
00:46:15
in that exhibition is once you settle, then the first one is
00:46:20
about going through the this kind of solid light of like a
00:46:25
glass and you go through that and you hear the noise and you
00:46:28
have the aids and and suddenly I just felt I was reconnecting
00:46:33
with the environment. There is something very
00:46:35
environmental about that and that's brings back to the 70s
00:46:39
also. It's what you can see how
00:46:43
fragile is our world. You know, it's just all these
00:46:46
little particles. It's nothing, but it's what
00:46:49
makes us. And that's when the magic
00:46:51
happens. I think it's, it's you
00:46:54
understand that you are dust yourself and you are part of the
00:46:57
universe and everything is invisible.
00:47:00
But yet you can see it. You know, it makes, I think
00:47:03
that's the main thing it makes invisible visible.
00:47:08
And that's a movie in a way. And you are in that movie.
00:47:11
And that's where I completely broke.
00:47:14
I was like, Oh my God, this is so beautiful.
00:47:18
Then that's kind of the effect and and some there was two or
00:47:21
three people talking on the corner and that really annoyed
00:47:24
me. And they were somewhere just
00:47:27
breathing and you're like, just go away.
00:47:29
I'm in my universe. And then in the other
00:47:32
installation, the people are important because they cut the
00:47:35
light. Then they are, they are then the
00:47:38
the the that's the first one is a cone and then the second one
00:47:43
where I went was the one which is this it it's all about
00:47:49
arabesque. It's it's quite an ellipse and
00:47:52
then the it's very in the round. I don't know the name of that
00:47:57
one. Is it doubling back or face to
00:48:02
face? So the the works that he has
00:48:04
doubling back face to face and split second mirror which is
00:48:08
from 2018. So doubling back is from 2003.
00:48:12
I think that's doubling back. Yeah, I think.
00:48:16
Because and that's all the Arabs.
00:48:17
Yeah, yeah. And then that's where I went
00:48:20
second. And because it's it's all in in,
00:48:24
in that kind of yeah, Arabs line.
00:48:26
Basically it's. Kind of like the Infinity.
00:48:28
Symbol. Yes, exactly.
00:48:29
And now you are in a very different well, I was in a very
00:48:32
different spirit because he I wear skirts or dresses and it's
00:48:37
like the the the the helm of a of a dress in a way.
00:48:42
And you start to want to, I wanted to dance, you know, it
00:48:46
brings a lot of joy because it's all in the round and it's
00:48:50
twirling and you want to catch and take that light.
00:48:53
And that was very playful, this one.
00:48:56
And then the the third one I went to and that's where I
00:48:59
really settled was, I think face to face where you have you have
00:49:05
a screen in the middle, then one cone hit a screen and the the
00:49:09
other cone hit the other side. And then you catch in a
00:49:14
landscape in a way, bringing back to the first movie, the the
00:49:18
light is all, it's really a cone.
00:49:21
You are in that cone. And then you, I felt I was like,
00:49:25
in the universe, you are in The Big Bang basically.
00:49:28
And you can go in and out and you really see the smoke.
00:49:32
And then I sat down and I saw people going through and that
00:49:37
was really where the magic happened.
00:49:40
And there is a concept which I think he talks about, of
00:49:45
slowness. And for me, that's the second
00:49:50
very important part of his work. You know, there's something
00:49:54
environmental about it. And then the second thing is the
00:49:57
slowness. He makes you stop and he makes
00:50:01
you take your time. And it's very, very steady.
00:50:05
The, you know, it's the movie is not too long.
00:50:07
It's not 3 hours, but it's not 5 minutes.
00:50:10
It's just 20 minutes, very time. And he, he has this effect of
00:50:16
slowing and slowing and staying. And I think people are staying a
00:50:20
long time. And I stayed, I don't know how
00:50:23
long it, it felt like infinite. I'm quite a quickie.
00:50:26
Normally when I go to exhibition, I can zoom in, but
00:50:29
I'm, I'm quick And there I just, I just stand still for a long
00:50:34
time. And that's a success.
00:50:36
That's where you are. That for me, that's becomes
00:50:42
really a work about it. It really takes you.
00:50:45
What was your feeling going through it?
00:50:50
Maybe because of my interest in Mahe and this phenomenon that I
00:50:54
think is our phenomenon at the moment, which is all the images
00:50:58
we're looking at, our digital, and behind them there's a code,
00:51:02
There's an abstract mesh of symbols and codes and lines and
00:51:08
graphics that we're not aware of, but all the images we're
00:51:11
looking at are made of that and it's engine.
00:51:14
Mahe showed us that all movement in strength is translatable into
00:51:18
those codes. And Mahe also had to wait until
00:51:23
we invented computers for his imagery and his invention to
00:51:27
work fully, because only computer can calculate records
00:51:32
and archive all the information that you gather when you recall
00:51:36
movement. So in some ways he started
00:51:39
something that was then pursued by digital, by computing and by
00:51:44
coding, by algorithms and by the mathematics behind computers.
00:51:49
And Mccool the same thing. He reconnected with technology.
00:51:53
And I find it really interesting that the the atmosphere he
00:51:58
creates is so connected to the technologies we're using
00:52:02
nowadays. But it's kind of showing both.
00:52:07
He's showing the Ixels drawing and making something that was
00:52:12
rogrammed by someone who knows how to do that.
00:52:16
They were drawn by him, and then they're created in the space, in
00:52:20
a very specific located relationship with you as a body
00:52:25
and with your imagination and with your own culture, your own
00:52:29
background, your own physical. If you're in a wheelchair,
00:52:33
you're going to your head's going to cut through the cone.
00:52:36
If you're a child, you're going to experience it differently.
00:52:39
It roots you. It roots you in your own body
00:52:43
and suddenly with the universe. And it is such a beautiful
00:52:47
experience, that kind of solipsistic presence of the
00:52:51
projection. And the machine that's behind it
00:52:54
has this kind of passive wisdom almost that is conveyed through
00:53:03
the machine. And I'm really interested in AI
00:53:07
at the moment and the metaverse and everything that it's doing
00:53:11
and what we're doing with it. And I think that there is
00:53:15
something that we can learn from machines.
00:53:18
I think machines have a kind of presence in the way they learn
00:53:22
from us. And there's a lot of fiction out
00:53:27
there about that. And we're living exactly the
00:53:30
opposite. We're at in the hands of
00:53:32
Zuckerberg and Musk and who are reducing machines to
00:53:36
manipulative, creepy creatures. And then you have artists who
00:53:41
are creating machines that can live with us and can teach us
00:53:45
about time and can teach us about our own bodies through
00:53:49
difference. And I think that was kind of, it
00:53:54
is so timely. You, like we said, he's in his
00:53:56
late 70s, and yet I think he has this affinity with machines that
00:54:02
I find really beautiful and that I find really hopeful as well.
00:54:07
Then on to pick up on what you said.
00:54:09
Then there's three things which are interesting where where I
00:54:13
just want to add something. Only three.
00:54:16
That I can't remember then in the relation with the others, I
00:54:25
was pretty alone then I wanted my loneliness.
00:54:28
I wanted the universe to belong to me.
00:54:30
I wanted that's what I wanted the cocoon.
00:54:33
And you know, you were in a very different experience because it
00:54:38
was like a party and people were jumping around and experiencing
00:54:42
these in a more playful where McCall talks about, he says his
00:54:48
work a lot about people, the encounter, which I didn't really
00:54:54
understand because I was like, no, it's about you and your
00:54:57
perception. And I think with your
00:54:59
experience, I understand better. And I think he's interested in
00:55:04
how people are getting in the space and how people are looking
00:55:09
at the others, how you invade your own space.
00:55:12
And that's part of his work. And he talks about that the.
00:55:15
First thing I thought was friendships and couples were
00:55:19
born in this space. OK, but I not for me, but
00:55:24
clearly. And, and that's part of his
00:55:25
practice. And then the other thing is
00:55:28
about the slowness. And he also speaks about that
00:55:30
and I really experience it for myself.
00:55:33
And I loved it. And he, a journalist asked him
00:55:37
about a cell phone because of course, you know, it's so
00:55:40
beautiful. People love to take selfies.
00:55:43
And there is a photo of his work where everyone is looking at the
00:55:47
cone and someone is taking a selfie, which is so today, but
00:55:53
the the the curator was asking him and he was like, Oh yeah,
00:55:57
made me cringe a little bit at the beginning.
00:55:59
And but then he he comes to terms with it because he's happy
00:56:04
people, people are taking selfies.
00:56:07
It, you know, it's, it has its silliness.
00:56:09
But in his practice, he sinks that help people to stay longer.
00:56:15
And then that that kind of helps him with slowing down
00:56:20
everything. And I thought that's very
00:56:22
interesting how he has integrating integrated in his
00:56:26
mind and his in his practice, the way society is behaving.
00:56:31
He didn't like it, but then now he sees it as something
00:56:35
interesting, which which I like because of course you want to
00:56:42
take selfies there, but you know, do you want to do that or
00:56:45
not? You know, it's it's because it's
00:56:48
a space made for that. And I think Tate, of course, is
00:56:50
playing on that. And the sad thing I wanted to
00:56:52
mention in what you you said is Daisy experience, which is very
00:56:59
strong. And then as a curator or, you
00:57:02
know, someone who looks at the exhibition, there's a whole
00:57:07
aspect of his practice which is, I think very pure and very slow.
00:57:16
And it takes one thing very seriously.
00:57:20
And then there's a drawing aspect.
00:57:22
And then you have the film aspect.
00:57:24
And then you have the, is it a sculpture or is it what is a
00:57:28
sculpture? And then you have also, it's
00:57:30
quite architectural. You know, the space is
00:57:32
important. And when you look at his work,
00:57:34
there's a lot of things around his work, drawing, film,
00:57:40
sculpture, happening, immersive. Where do you put him?
00:57:47
And then that's very interesting, but that's all very
00:57:49
intellectual, while his work I think is is very tactile and
00:57:55
very simple in the way you interact with it.
00:57:57
Then I'm interested in that dynamic of, and then the first
00:58:01
room is all about that, this very technical drawing, very
00:58:04
dry. And then you have the experience
00:58:07
and did you feel that dynamic and does that interest you as a
00:58:11
curator? Yeah, it's such a good question
00:58:15
and we did mention that in the beginning.
00:58:19
I'm more interested in the way he interacts with new
00:58:23
technologies and what it says about how we're living in the
00:58:29
world with them. Because the whole question.
00:58:32
And that's why it was so interesting to go back to that
00:58:35
moment in my emerging career at the time.
00:58:39
I was so young, 25 years ago, you know, I was 24.
00:58:44
And I remember being excited by the intellectual aspect of it
00:58:48
and by the rhetoric of is it film?
00:58:52
Is it conceptual? Is it a drawing?
00:58:54
Is it sculpture? Is it cinema?
00:58:57
And now I find that it's all of it and.
00:59:02
It is. I think that's a conclusion.
00:59:04
It is. Right.
00:59:06
And the fact that there's drawing in there and graphic
00:59:09
design, I'm preaching to my own choir, obviously, as artistic
00:59:13
director of drawing. Now, I think that drawing has
00:59:16
that incredibly proteaic form of connecting languages.
00:59:27
The line is there. He did draw.
00:59:30
He studied graphic design. He also studied photography, and
00:59:33
for me, the idea of drawing and technology is very connected.
00:59:39
I think that that's kind of is the axis in some ways, but it
00:59:43
doesn't make it about that. It's very Renaissance in some
00:59:47
ways because the drawing in the Renaissance was the father of
00:59:50
all arts. So it was the patriarch and but
00:59:53
it disappeared into the masterpiece.
00:59:54
You didn't see a painting by or a sculpture by Michelangelo and
00:59:59
think, oh, drawing. But for the artist it was the
01:00:01
most important skill. So he also is very classical in
01:00:06
that, in those terms that excites me as someone who likes
01:00:10
to think about things. So personally, obviously, I will
01:00:14
think about. The dynamics of the languages
01:00:18
that are, are being used. But in terms of genres, I find
01:00:22
that conversation quite old. And I think it's, it's, it's
01:00:28
about the passion of the artist. So sometimes you talk to an
01:00:32
artist who's making videos and they tell you, for me, painting
01:00:38
is the the, the, the guiding light of my practice.
01:00:42
And you take it and you listen and you think, OK, that's
01:00:45
interesting and it helps you carry that work with you and,
01:00:50
and enter entering it. But in your experience of the
01:00:54
work, it doesn't really matter because it's surpasses whatever
01:01:01
technicality the artist is dealing with.
01:01:05
Once you've experienced the work, it's interesting to know
01:01:07
all these things and to revisit the work.
01:01:10
Exactly. There is different layers and I
01:01:12
see more like layers than something you have to put
01:01:15
together. And then if you are into
01:01:17
architecture, then you might study that side of his work.
01:01:19
And if you are into drawing, you might look at the drawing he.
01:01:23
Does say that the architecture doesn't interest him, but you
01:01:26
keep talking about it, so that's your relationship to it, which
01:01:30
is valid. And I think you're right, there
01:01:33
is something with the architecture there that he seems
01:01:37
to be uninterested in. Then there's one thing I would
01:01:41
like to speak about and, and which is intriguing for me when
01:01:47
I look at his work, when I think of his work and, you know, not
01:01:51
when I was dead, I didn't really know what was the year and when
01:01:57
they were made. And actually it was really, you
01:01:59
know, very surprised they were so early because for me, in the
01:02:05
last maybe 10 years, 10 to 15 years, we've seen more and more
01:02:10
immersive works for different reasons.
01:02:12
I think museum are very happy to have that because I engage the
01:02:17
audience in a different way that, you know, it's, it's
01:02:22
different to I think a museum before you used to walk in, you
01:02:25
have to make an effort, look, understand, read.
01:02:28
If you're an immersive work, it's very different.
01:02:30
And we've seen more and more of that.
01:02:33
And then in the even in the commercial world, we've seen
01:02:36
more of that because you've got some team lab, for example,
01:02:41
which is this, I don't know there.
01:02:43
I think it's an association between technology and artist.
01:02:48
And they create this super mega environment with movies of
01:02:52
flowers falling and they're incredible to to experience.
01:02:56
I found them a little bit empty, but they are really incredible.
01:03:00
And then I think pace is behind that and it's called super blue.
01:03:06
And then to pay for the installation, you and the making
01:03:11
of the installation, they sell tickets.
01:03:13
Then it becomes in between art and commercial.
01:03:19
And then you have also a new thing which has emerged, which
01:03:22
is called I think the City of the Lights where you have
01:03:26
classic blue chip like Van Gogh, Orkney, Estonard, Medigliani.
01:03:32
And they kind of put in motion their work, which is, you know,
01:03:38
when you look at them, you know, maybe you're going to be
01:03:41
disappointed when you look at the work itself compared to the
01:03:43
experience you can have even in in USA they did an exhibition of
01:03:47
1874, the first Impressionist exhibition.
01:03:52
And there was the exhibition and next door there was the full on
01:03:58
experimental immersive experience.
01:04:02
And and McCall is in that field. But in a way he has stayed very
01:04:07
pure to his practice. And he could, you know, you say,
01:04:10
Oh yeah, he's very into technology, but he has taken
01:04:13
technology in a very, very, very selective way, which only serves
01:04:18
him and very carefully. And that I found very beautiful.
01:04:23
And that I found in a very courageous to not just fall for
01:04:29
things because it's easy. Technology is explosing, We're
01:04:32
exploring. And it's not.
01:04:33
It's like, OK, what is important for me?
01:04:35
What works. Yeah.
01:04:39
And as a curator, what do you think of all this new immersive
01:04:43
works? And where do you place my call
01:04:45
in that? Well, I think that there's two
01:04:49
different things, which is artists who are now exploring
01:04:54
new technologies and immersive technologies.
01:04:58
And I, when you were talking about immersive environments, I
01:05:02
was thinking, oh, but that's a very 70s thing.
01:05:04
Think La Monte, Young, Tanya Muro.
01:05:07
So many people who created these chambers sealed my rails in in
01:05:11
Brazil. Julia Park.
01:05:13
Yeah, Julio Park. You know, Julio Park, maybe I
01:05:17
don't. Know Julio?
01:05:18
Yeah, Julio. Right, so there it's a very 70s
01:05:24
thing that was very connected with meditation, altered states,
01:05:29
psychedelics, drug induced altered states, etcetera.
01:05:36
So and the mind is a drug in in some ways and and getting there
01:05:39
through music or through a a stable sound like the ohm of
01:05:44
meditation. All of that was in those
01:05:47
installations. And Mccool also comes from
01:05:53
there. You know, there's there's this
01:05:54
idea of suddenly the cinema is merging with a potentially much
01:05:59
more heightened space of experience.
01:06:03
And Q to now where you have these technologies and that's
01:06:08
where it is very interesting because Mccool came at the end
01:06:15
of the technology and kind of dried it out and expanded it in
01:06:21
its elemental quality. Whereas now you have a new
01:06:25
technology emerging. You're not coming to the end of
01:06:29
the metaverse and thinking, I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to
01:06:33
invert this. We're now experimenting with it.
01:06:36
And it's the task of the artists to come and say, OK, I am not
01:06:42
going to be manipulated by this. I'm going to manipulate it and
01:06:47
I'm going to work with it and see where it I can take it as
01:06:52
opposed to where it can take me or collaborate with it.
01:06:55
So you have. And I urge you to, dear
01:06:59
listener, if you haven't listened to my interview with
01:07:01
Auron Descalera and Alfredo Camerotti called Will AI Kill
01:07:07
the Exhibition Star? Do it because we talk a lot
01:07:11
about these things. And we talk about artists who
01:07:13
are doing poetry, we're doing drawing, we're doing music with
01:07:18
AI or sound installations with AI, which are not what you would
01:07:23
think. Spaces where you forget about
01:07:27
yourself, like in cinema, and suddenly you're so taken by what
01:07:31
you're seeing that it becomes entertainment.
01:07:34
I think you're drawing the line between a real metaphysical
01:07:37
experience of the artwork and entertainment where you're where
01:07:41
it's just escapism and which is fine and.
01:07:44
I I don't know is it? Really not against it.
01:07:46
Is that acceptable? But I think the landscape is
01:07:49
changing. And Mccoy's anchor before that.
01:07:53
And I really like the way he's threading very carefully on that
01:07:58
entertainment, not entertainment.
01:08:00
And the the creator, I don't know why they chose to show him.
01:08:04
But at the same time, at Tate, you have another exhibition
01:08:07
which echoes very well my, my, my call, which I yeah, it's
01:08:12
called Electrical Dreams. And it's kind of discovering all
01:08:17
the technology in the 60s and 70s and it works very well.
01:08:22
And it's very important to see it with my colon.
01:08:25
And it's, it's the, the what they've done at Ted is super
01:08:28
interesting and it's really worth seeing both.
01:08:32
I don't want to dwell into that. Maybe that's another episode,
01:08:35
but that's really a good compliment.
01:08:39
That's great that you say that, because I was thinking about
01:08:43
another answer to your question, which is that one of the things
01:08:47
that McCall has discussed in an an article for tape papers is
01:08:54
that line describing a cone is becoming damaged.
01:09:00
So the film is not how it was in the beginning.
01:09:03
So it has specks of light. And he says that he loves that.
01:09:07
He loves the fact that the film. Is.
01:09:09
Used has aged and as cellular as it happens with celluloid, it's
01:09:15
kind of becoming like a sort of a starry night kind of thing.
01:09:18
It's not as black as the digital, he says.
01:09:21
The digital files will remain unchanged.
01:09:26
They're not going to age like celluloid is aging.
01:09:30
And so there's two possibilities for beyond his time, let's say.
01:09:36
So the curator interviewing him asked over the scholar.
01:09:40
I don't know who, I can't remember who was asked him.
01:09:43
So what is your decision regarding light line describing
01:09:48
a cone? Will you let it die or will you
01:09:51
accept to have it transferred onto a digital file?
01:09:55
And so he said, I'm very lucky because I can decide this
01:10:00
myself. I want line describing a cone to
01:10:04
be what it is and I would accept to have it transferred onto a
01:10:14
digital file as it is so aged with the specs of light and with
01:10:19
a very imprecise line. So he says that the line is not
01:10:23
is not precise. If you look at it carefully,
01:10:26
it's not like the Digital 1, so it's not like the post 2000
01:10:29
works where the line is perfect. It's not razor sharp.
01:10:32
It's not razor sharp. What he is willing to do is do a
01:10:37
line describing a cone 2 point O, which would be the version of
01:10:45
that work in digital form, and it's two different works.
01:10:50
So for him, there is no, there's a completely different aspect to
01:10:57
his works and a different connection to technology to what
01:11:03
it is an immersive experience. And you're right in pointing out
01:11:09
the entertainment side of the Van Gogh exhibition, for
01:11:12
example, where suddenly you are experiencing his colors, his
01:11:19
palettes moving about, which I'm absolutely not against.
01:11:25
I think it's great. I think it's amazing that you
01:11:28
get to somehow be in the the mind and the perception of the
01:11:32
artist, because when you're making a painting is the exact
01:11:37
reverse of when you're experiencing a painting.
01:11:40
You're in the material, you're in the material aspect of it.
01:11:44
Of course, that immersive experience will not give you the
01:11:46
smell of the paint, will not give you the touch, will not
01:11:49
give you the concentration of the making of the color,
01:11:54
whatever. But it may allow you to be,
01:12:00
especially knowing that Van Gogh's mental health was
01:12:04
incredibly affected. He had visions, and he seems to,
01:12:11
he seemed to have synesthesia and he was taking medication
01:12:14
that kind of turned everything yellow for him.
01:12:17
So that perception was his own perception.
01:12:22
And like Kusama, the same thing. Why do these artists create
01:12:26
these immersive environments? Kusama, you know, has OCD, if
01:12:31
I'm not mistaken. I mean, she has this kind of
01:12:33
obsessive compulsive behavior or compulsive behaviors.
01:12:36
She interned herself into a mental health capacity.
01:12:43
So facility. So there's these altered states
01:12:47
that maybe can help you go into those states in the easier
01:12:54
because don't forget Michelle took mescaline.
01:12:58
So many artists and and and musicians were under the
01:13:03
influence in the 70s. I just don't want them to
01:13:07
replace the experience of the work, but I think they can be.
01:13:11
It's like watching a film. I now I find myself filming
01:13:15
paintings and it really enjoying that experience because I
01:13:19
noticed they don't. When I watch documentaries about
01:13:22
painters I enjoy so much being so close because you can't now
01:13:29
you have alarms. Like you can't get close to
01:13:31
paintings but you can with a camera.
01:13:34
Is it still the painting? Who cares in some ways if it's
01:13:38
giving you something and if it's doing you good and creating a
01:13:44
different experience than that of watching an influencer
01:13:48
selling weight loss tea on Instagram?
01:13:54
Yeah, yeah. You can have many forms and I
01:13:56
think you know where we're going.
01:13:57
It's all about that, that Now I think the question is for some
01:14:01
museum is how do they want the audience to experience a museum?
01:14:06
And you don't want to transform a museum as a kind of
01:14:12
entertainment park. You know that says a fine line
01:14:16
and but you also want your audience to come.
01:14:18
Then I think that's that's more the role of the director and the
01:14:21
creator to really think how you know how want how much you want
01:14:24
to push the boundaries for this very big kind of city of the
01:14:28
Lumiere where you enhance everything great.
01:14:32
But they I found as a as a modern art.
01:14:38
If I say especially it's, it's, I'm just a little bit worried
01:14:43
that, you know, when you see the real thing, you'll get
01:14:46
disappointed because if you keep henancing when you go first you
01:14:50
have to make an effort when you look at things.
01:14:53
And then also, you know, it's dusty, it's smaller, the colours
01:14:58
are faded over time. When this works, you know by
01:15:00
Vongo Monet or you know they are old, they are 150 years old and
01:15:05
and then are they going to be disappointing in the flesh?
01:15:11
There is also this movement now towards in a lot of younger
01:15:16
artists, towards a real contact with materials, with Earth, with
01:15:21
the pencil, because if there's two people who grew up in this
01:15:25
technology will be sick of it, you know, it will be too much.
01:15:30
It will be too, too, I think, too.
01:15:37
What's the words to to available to it it it's?
01:15:43
I think like always, you you. You want something else?
01:15:46
Yeah, but you rediscover the roots.
01:15:48
You know, I think every generation does that.
01:15:50
And going back to the, you know, they did that in the 70s also,
01:15:55
you know, looking at at, you know, when MACO was looking at
01:15:59
fire and water and air in a very simple concept.
01:16:03
Exactly. And light and it's all about the
01:16:06
light, right? I have one final question
01:16:09
because we must go, we have to go.
01:16:12
I wanted to give this conversation to us something
01:16:15
completely different, but it was it's always such a joy to talk
01:16:18
with you that we've of course we improvised.
01:16:21
But I wanted to ask you, so Anthony McCall is one of those
01:16:25
artists that we can call the one trick pony, right?
01:16:28
He does. And because collectors, when you
01:16:31
talk to collectors, people who buy art, they're always
01:16:34
concerned with this idea. A lot of them are concerned with
01:16:37
this idea of novelty. Like, oh, this artist is always
01:16:39
doing the same thing. Oh, this is exhibition is the
01:16:41
same thing they did before. So it it is a thing, isn't it?
01:16:47
To kind of realize that this artist not only is A1 trick
01:16:50
pony, but he also was absent for a long time from the art world.
01:16:57
What do you make of that? Is that a problem, as you know,
01:17:01
maybe from the market perspective, from your
01:17:03
perspective? And what do we expect from
01:17:06
artists and what is an artistic career?
01:17:09
What is it? Is it problematic?
01:17:12
Well, lots of question in one questions.
01:17:17
Well, first, in the case of Anthony McCall, I haven't spoken
01:17:21
to the to these galleries, but I would think, you know, he's not
01:17:26
what we call a commercial artist and people who will buy his
01:17:30
work, maybe he can buy a drawing, but then that would be
01:17:34
in a very specific collection because you need to know the
01:17:38
work to buy the kind of back works and otherwise you will buy
01:17:43
the installation, which then you need to be an institution.
01:17:46
Then first as a, you know, pure commercial artist is in a
01:17:50
special category, which which is yeah, and you know, he's more an
01:17:56
artist you will show unlimited or you would do a, you know, you
01:18:00
will take the whole gallery with an installation.
01:18:03
Then that's already puts him in a different category.
01:18:07
So Unlimited is a section of an art fair called Art Basel where
01:18:13
you expose monumental works. It's a huge warehouse where
01:18:18
galleries galleries who are participating in the fair, in
01:18:21
their booths, they can propose a major big monumental artwork.
01:18:26
Sorry, just a parenthesis for those who don't know.
01:18:28
Then that's on the commercial side.
01:18:29
Now on the really the the carrier.
01:18:33
Every artist is different and some artists, their practice is
01:18:39
to renew themselves a lot. Sometime when I go and see a
01:18:45
retrospective, you might walk out and say, Oh my God, he's
01:18:48
quite repetitive. And, and even some very big
01:18:51
artist, you're like the retrospective kind of killed him
01:18:55
a little bit because he's, he's found no, but sometime an artist
01:19:00
find a kind of a cosy corner and that's kind of for me, what I
01:19:03
call a trademark. And that's where you lose
01:19:05
interest in my calls case. Look, you know, when I hear you
01:19:14
telling about his life and and his practice, there is a
01:19:19
slowness about it and something very careful, which is maybe due
01:19:25
to, you know, the fact that, you know, he couldn't set his work
01:19:29
or the the landscape has changed.
01:19:31
It might just not be on his own factor.
01:19:36
But actually that plays in his favour because suddenly you turn
01:19:40
your head and you realise he's been so true to his own
01:19:44
practice, to his own research, and the slowness has integrated
01:19:48
this, you know, work, which is then it's very admirable and
01:19:54
it's very pure and it's very real.
01:19:56
And then that goes well with his body of work then.
01:20:02
And that doesn't make him less interesting in a way.
01:20:08
And why not? You can create just one
01:20:11
important work of art in your life and it's OK.
01:20:15
You know who said you have to create 5000?
01:20:19
You know, some artists are about perfection and there is
01:20:22
something very precise and perfectionist about his work.
01:20:29
Then I'm not, I don't know, I'm not really puzzled about that.
01:20:35
I was more wondering about him. I was like, what do you do in
01:20:40
between? You know, you need to have some
01:20:41
nerves to, to, to wait, big nerves because life goes on.
01:20:47
People ask you need money. You know, it's, it's how do you
01:20:50
survive all these years? Yeah, I mean, he was a graphic
01:20:54
designer, so I think. That wasn't.
01:20:56
I didn't. I think work probably got in the
01:20:59
way as well of his practice, right?
01:21:01
But yeah, it's interesting when you say, 'cause I think there's
01:21:05
always this expectation of artists to have a certain kind
01:21:10
of career and to be the, we have a romantic idea of the artist as
01:21:18
this filter through which the world goes through that will
01:21:23
deliver a, a, a vision of the world.
01:21:27
And the job of the artist is to go across time and keep on
01:21:31
filtering and keep on producing images that will come from them,
01:21:36
but also kind of reflect us in the world.
01:21:39
And there's kind of their job. That's what they're here to do.
01:21:43
And there's an expectation of a continuation in time.
01:21:47
But creativity is so much more than that.
01:21:49
And it's your worry about McCall is because you know, so many
01:21:54
artists and you know how hard it is to have a creative output
01:21:57
that makes sense to you and also make a living in parallel to
01:22:03
that. So it, it it's so interesting
01:22:06
that your mind went there and, and, and thought about his
01:22:09
survival. You know, how did he make it?
01:22:11
You know, how did he live? How was I, was he OK?
01:22:15
And you had this worry about him, which I find so moving and
01:22:20
so interesting. Just wanted to add that he does
01:22:22
have drawings. There's, there's these beautiful
01:22:23
drawings of his. I'm not sure he's prolific in,
01:22:28
in that sense, but I guess if you're a private collector, I
01:22:31
guess you could still have a photo or a drawing of his.
01:22:35
But as you say, he's more of an institutional artist.
01:22:39
He will be, you know, in, in presented in museum collections
01:22:44
and private foundations and, and the like for sure.
01:22:48
So liberty, I think we've come to the end of it.
01:22:54
It was really a pleasure to see that exhibition and I will urge
01:22:58
anyone to go and see it and experience it for themselves
01:23:03
because it's, it's, he's a beautiful artist.
01:23:06
The, the, the, the five work 5 works presented are beautiful
01:23:12
and they really add to the discourse.
01:23:14
And then if you have time, go also and see Electric Dreams,
01:23:18
which is finishing in a month, I think because they are really
01:23:23
explaining they're the roots of what's coming basically.
01:23:27
And I thought it was fascinating that they could put that
01:23:30
together. Thank you so much for staying
01:23:34
with us, for sticking with us. It was such a pleasure.
01:23:37
Thank you so much, Liberty for coming back to the podcast.
01:23:40
It was, as ever, a pleasure to to exchange views with you and
01:23:47
to all of you out there. Have a great, great couple of
01:23:50
weeks and we will be with you very, very soon.
01:23:55
Thank you so much, Liberty. Thank you, Joanna.
01:23:58
Bye. Bye.
01:23:59
Bye bye everyone, take care.