Art Advisor Liberté Nuti joins our host, art curator and writer Joana P. R. Neves, to discuss how cinema can become an art installation. Why did Anthony McCall create immersive art installations with cinema projectors and other technologies of popular culture? This contemporary British artist absorbed the NY vibe, but why did he disappear for more than a decade? Can his work be characterised "pop conceptual technology"?
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How did Anthony McCall preempt the development of technology associated with cinema? Where did his desire to create atmospheric cinema come from? And why will he always be a bit of an art mystery?... From the UK to the US, from analogue to digital, McCall has created a body of work as playful as it is culturally relevant, on show at Tate Modern. Read Joana's short presentation of the artist here.
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For more information about the exhibition go here.
My co-host is Liberté Nutti, who you can follow here for good tips about modern and contemporary art: @libertenuti.
To know more about her, you can check her website.
Music by Sarturn.
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Created & Hosted by Dr. Joana P. R. Neves, art curator and writer with over 20 years of experience in the contemporary art field. Artistic director of Drawing Now Paris since 2018, she has worked across the industry, from the art market to education. She co-launched the art residency and project space Worlding in 2020. Exhibitionistas’ first year offered exhibition discussions with guest co-host Emily Harding; organically, it grew into a more experimental show exploring art topics, stories and interviews complemented by Joana’s publication Art Thinkosaurus on Substack. She champions ‘Art Wonderment’s’ embrace of complexity against the lure of ready-made opinions. A polyglot, she grew up in Lisbon, studied and lived in Paris, to finally settle in London with her artist husband, four children and two cats.
Find us:
On Instagram – @exhibitionistas_podcast
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Online: www.exhibitionistaspodcast.com
Do you want to be a guest on Art Etiquette? Reach out: joana@exhibitionistaspodcast.com
Copyright: Joana P. R. Neves, 2024.
00:00:07
Hello, exhibitionistas. I hope you're doing very, very
00:00:10
well. I'm your host, Joanna Pianevis,
00:00:14
independent writer and curator. So I got a phone call.
00:00:17
I got a phone call asking me why I hadn't covered Anthony McCall
00:00:23
in the podcast yet and I couldn't really answer.
00:00:27
And to be honest, I had been secretly wanting someone to
00:00:30
nudge me in that direction. We have been covering Tate
00:00:35
Modern quite a bit. We'll be covering at Atkins's
00:00:39
exhibition at the Britain, so I thought it's too much.
00:00:44
But Tate, you've been doing a wonderful job.
00:00:46
I could not avoid covering Solid Light, the exhibition that is
00:00:51
still open and will be open until June.
00:00:54
We do go back to the 70s and then we reconnect with the
00:01:00
beginning of the century. Anthony McCall is quite a unique
00:01:04
career and we have lots of fun. We talk a lot about cinema,
00:01:10
about drawing, about immersive experiences in contemporary art.
00:01:16
We ask ourselves what their future is and what the future of
00:01:19
museums is as well, if we're talking about technology.
00:01:22
So it's going to be a good one. I think you're going to enjoy
00:01:26
it. And also, you know, I have to do
00:01:28
my job and remind you that you can support my work.
00:01:33
You can support exhibitionists. There are several ways of doing
00:01:36
it. But I also want to tell you that
00:01:38
I'm writing quite a bit on sub stacks.
00:01:40
So if you're interested in alternating your relationship
00:01:44
with me through reading rather than listening, I have my page
00:01:49
over there. So it's Joanna, Pierre Nevis.
00:01:51
It's easy to find me and you can also support me there if you
00:01:55
prefer it. I will put a link into the shows
00:01:59
notes so you can donate. You can just do a one off
00:02:03
contribution or you can become a member.
00:02:06
Same thing on Sub Stack. It's up to you.
00:02:08
I'm so grateful to those who support exhibitionists, to those
00:02:12
who also support me on Sub Stack, it's incredible.
00:02:15
So without further ado, I think you're going to really enjoy
00:02:18
this episode. So let's do this.
00:02:21
Let's dig into Anthony Mccalls. Solid, light, a tape, modern.
00:02:39
Hello and welcome to Exhibitionist.
00:02:41
There's the podcast where we visit exhibitions so that you
00:02:45
have to and we visit exhibitions separately and compare notes
00:02:49
during the recording just for you.
00:02:51
And as usual, I have a very special Co host.
00:02:56
She is returning. I'm talking about Liberty Nutty,
00:03:01
your favorite art advisor, and we will be discussing at her own
00:03:06
request, Anthony Mccall's exhibition, Solid Light at Tate
00:03:09
Modern. And fear not, it's open until
00:03:13
the 2nd of June. So you have a lot of time to go
00:03:16
and see it. First of all, let me welcome
00:03:20
Liberty to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming
00:03:23
back. Liberty, how are you doing?
00:03:25
Hi, Adriana. Nice to see you again.
00:03:28
And I'm very excited to speak about Anthony McCall and his
00:03:33
exhibition Solid Lights. What's your perception of
00:03:37
Anthony McCall? Did you?
00:03:38
Had you experienced his work before?
00:03:40
A lot? What, what, what, what?
00:03:43
What's the idea you have of him? Oh, OK, tricky question.
00:03:47
To start with, I'm a little bit ashamed to say that I've never
00:03:53
heard about him before, which you know.
00:03:56
That's so great. If he if he's listened to US one
00:04:00
day, I really apologize about that.
00:04:03
I've just, I just had no idea. And I went to Tate in the
00:04:09
morning on Sunday to catch up with Mike Kelly, which was
00:04:14
closing two weeks ago. And take when you are a member,
00:04:21
you can go, they do something which is fantastic.
00:04:23
You have an hour on Sunday before they open for the
00:04:28
members. And that's really worth the
00:04:30
membership in a way. And then I was alone and I, I, I
00:04:35
went to see my Kelly and then the room above there was solid
00:04:39
light. And I love the title and I was
00:04:42
really intrigued and I thought that was a very beautiful title.
00:04:45
And I just didn't really understand it.
00:04:47
And I thought, oh, I'll go and see.
00:04:49
And that's where the adventure started.
00:04:52
Then I'm completely, if I may say, virgin to his work.
00:04:56
And I was so stunned and so impressed that I called you and
00:05:01
I said, let's talk about him. I want to know who he is.
00:05:04
Because there is a small introduction at Tate, but they
00:05:06
don't say much. That's why I was even more
00:05:09
intrigued in a way. And I went with no, no
00:05:13
preconception, no special ideas. I was very fresh in the morning,
00:05:19
you know, when you're very curious.
00:05:21
I was alone, or so you. Have that clarity right that
00:05:24
morning clarity and you're so available.
00:05:27
And when you visit an exhibit, I love visiting exhibition with
00:05:30
friends, but when you go alone, in a way you are for myself, I'm
00:05:37
much more, you know, I really open the gate and I really
00:05:41
haven't. I don't know, I'm much more
00:05:44
sensitive. And then you think you open I'm
00:05:47
I'm slower also, and that's why the reception was maybe stronger
00:05:53
for me for this works. Here we go then, I've told you
00:05:56
my secret. History is so full of these
00:06:02
figures, a bit like Anthony McCall, who have kind of been
00:06:06
intermittently here. I remember McCall being
00:06:12
discussed by colleagues, like senior colleagues, about, well,
00:06:20
we're in 2025 S 25 years ago, maybe because of the show that
00:06:28
Chrissy Isles organized at the Whitney Museum called Into the
00:06:34
Light. I was in Portugal at the time
00:06:35
and I remember someone telling me about this exhibition, which
00:06:39
was about experimental films. So sculptural propositions,
00:06:45
experimental conceptual propositions involving film in
00:06:49
some way. I remember experiencing the work
00:06:52
and I didn't have time to research.
00:06:55
Did the exhibition travel and come to Portugal?
00:06:58
I don't remember. But I remember seeing his most
00:07:01
famous work Line describing a cone in the flesh and thinking,
00:07:08
wow, if experimentalism can be this, then I'm I'm all in.
00:07:15
I'm all in. So shall we dig into the life of
00:07:21
Anthony McCall? You know, Listen not to bury the
00:07:23
lead. You're not going to learn much
00:07:25
more than you already know, I'm telling you.
00:07:28
Yeah, it's quite a secret. Not secret, but discreet I would
00:07:31
say. So let's dig into.
00:07:34
Tell us more. Anthony Mccall's life, so he was
00:07:38
born in 1946 in Saint Paul's Cray.
00:07:43
I looked it up and it's near Orpington near London.
00:07:47
OK. But you know, Saint Paul's Cray
00:07:50
could be anywhere. It's very vague.
00:07:52
Again, like we were saying, he's very reserved.
00:07:55
And I didn't do you know what? This time I kind of felt like
00:07:59
respecting it, you know, because there's this this, there's this
00:08:02
aura in his life. And when you read interviews of
00:08:06
him, he's either incredibly technical or he talks about some
00:08:12
events that I'm going to tell you they are so huge and had
00:08:18
such impact on his life and his creative output that it kind of
00:08:23
becomes a bit about that. So, so he studied at, he studied
00:08:28
graphic design and photography at Ravensbourne College on the
00:08:33
outskirts of London. And so I'm, I'm quoting him.
00:08:37
So this is already his young adult years.
00:08:40
He became quote, steeped in other ways of using cinema.
00:08:44
It was called the experiment, experimental film, it was called
00:08:47
expanded cinema, structural film, New American cinema.
00:08:52
So he was involved with a group of people called Exits who were
00:08:58
interested in cinema, but they were a little bit like some
00:09:02
visual arts artists, interested in the moving image and the
00:09:09
display and the apparatus of projection in cinema, but not
00:09:15
really in cinema itself in terms of a projected image that tells
00:09:19
the story. So much so that he, in 1972,
00:09:24
thought of a piece to be filmed called Landscape for Fire, which
00:09:29
is presented in the exhibition as a film which was a sort of
00:09:32
orthogonally displayed or placed spots of fire in the field that
00:09:40
were then filmed. I mean, the installation was
00:09:43
filmed, the lighting, the fires were filmed.
00:09:45
There's a sound, but the film is incredibly experimental.
00:09:50
It's atmospheric, so he's in the relationship with an outdoor
00:09:55
space, but obviously it's already about light, so there's
00:09:59
something happening there. This movie is very just for
00:10:02
diligence. It's it then it's the in the
00:10:04
first room. It is very 70s.
00:10:06
You know, the way they're dressed and all that.
00:10:08
Just that people can understand. Absolutely.
00:10:11
So something happens in 1973, which is that he meets and
00:10:17
that's the thing that really, especially when you look at
00:10:21
pictures of him, so very kind of simple and elegant, not too
00:10:27
sophisticated attire. He he seems like a very
00:10:32
reserved, calm man. I don't know how to describe it
00:10:38
otherwise. And he falls in love with Carol
00:10:42
Lee Schneeman, of all people, and he follows her to New York.
00:10:46
So in 1973. Incredible.
00:10:49
He goes to New York, which for me was the most surprising thing
00:10:53
about this whole story. She had lots of friends there.
00:10:56
So when he arrives in New York, he a whole world opens to him.
00:11:02
So he says, and I'm quoting him. It was a revelation to find a
00:11:07
bar full of people talking about art.
00:11:11
So he describes in New York exactly as we imagine it to be,
00:11:15
full of people and full of a community, with a community of
00:11:19
people who are completely, 100% engaged in their own work, but
00:11:24
also in other people's works. And that's what really warmed
00:11:29
his heart and made him feel like he belonged immediately.
00:11:33
So he says, quote, I was pleased to be there with Carolee, and I
00:11:37
got to meet a lot of her performance friends.
00:11:40
Solowitz and Mel Bokner visited my studio within three months of
00:11:45
landing. I always considered that
00:11:48
tremendously generous. So he felt welcomed by the New
00:11:53
York Intelligentsia, the New York groundbreaking trailblazer
00:11:58
artist of the time, and he started creating together with
00:12:03
them. So one of the things that he
00:12:04
talks about is that he had a, a technical issue, say, I don't
00:12:11
know what, you know, what to use to light fires in a field.
00:12:14
And someone would say, oh, I know this dude who helped so and
00:12:18
so Judy Chicago back in LA, whatever to do her own Fresno,
00:12:23
to do her own installations. I'll take you there.
00:12:27
And then they would talk. The three of them would get
00:12:30
together and then kind of go together to make an Anthony
00:12:33
McCall piece in a field. So it was a very creative time.
00:12:39
He experimented quite a lot. And in 1973 he devises line
00:12:47
describing a cone. So that's the major turning
00:12:51
point in his activity where he first works with a 16mm camera,
00:12:57
a projector and camera. And he works with the cone of
00:13:03
light that is projected by the machine.
00:13:07
And the whole piece is absolutely what he calls an
00:13:11
animation film drew in some ways on the wall through a
00:13:15
projection, through a camera, A dots.
00:13:18
So it starts with a dot of light that very slowly starts forming
00:13:23
a circle and in that movement. So it takes 5 minutes for you to
00:13:28
kind of realize how it's how it's working and what it's
00:13:33
doing. And once the, the the sort of
00:13:37
orbit starts to happen, you start to realize that there is a
00:13:42
sort of a silky cone in space that seems incredibly material
00:13:49
and you start playing with it. You cannot but go into the the
00:13:54
cone. And I remember seeing the work
00:13:55
and thinking, can I should I, you know that behavior in
00:13:59
exhibitions, you never know if you can touch, if you can move,
00:14:02
if you can cross, but you're supposed to.
00:14:05
And one of the really, really enjoyable things about this is
00:14:10
not only you experiencing the work, but also watching other
00:14:13
people doing it, because the smoke and the atmosphere gives a
00:14:20
materiality and a tangibility to this cone of light.
00:14:26
And we'll talk about that aspect in a bit.
00:14:28
So he starts devising several works and something happens in
00:14:34
1977 and he's invited to present line describing a cone at the
00:14:40
Modena Musette in Stockholm in Sweden.
00:14:44
So he travels there, everything's installed, the
00:14:48
everyone's sitting and it starts for the audience.
00:14:51
So it's presented like a film. So it has a start.
00:14:54
And he says, well, the first 5 minutes are incredibly
00:14:59
unsettling because nothing happens.
00:15:03
But it's the 70s, right? We're used to this.
00:15:05
So the audience stays. This is in Stockholm, everyone's
00:15:08
polite, they wait. After 5 minutes, nothing
00:15:12
happens. The film goes on.
00:15:15
Minutes and minutes pass Nothing.
00:15:18
It's absolutely invisible. And the reason why it's
00:15:22
invisible, it's because in New York he would present his films,
00:15:26
his his installations in world warehouses that were incredibly
00:15:31
dusty. The atmosphere was full of dust.
00:15:35
There would be at least 10 people smoking cigarettes and
00:15:40
that dust and that cigarette smoke would materialize the
00:15:43
lights. No one was smoking at the Mudana
00:15:47
Musette. There was no dust.
00:15:49
It was an impeccable, clean, ascetic space and therefore the
00:15:54
film was invisible. He says that people stayed for a
00:15:58
long time until the end, very politely, nothing happened.
00:16:03
Meanwhile, he was running to a shop, buying cigarettes.
00:16:08
He came back, lit a bunch of cigarettes.
00:16:11
The security guard grabbed him by the collar, saying what are
00:16:14
you doing? You cannot light cigarettes in
00:16:16
here. It was a whole thing thing and
00:16:19
it was kind of a disaster. At the end of the of this
00:16:23
decade, he stops working. So he becomes a graphic designer
00:16:28
and he says, well, I needed to make a living.
00:16:31
There's there's this huge hiatus from Huron.
00:16:34
So from the end of the 70 seventies.
00:16:37
And when he was asked whether it was difficult for him, how he
00:16:42
lived this kind of distancing from his own practice, not only
00:16:47
the art world, but also his own practice, he said, well, every
00:16:51
so often someone would want to interview me about my art.
00:16:55
And that was always rather painful.
00:16:58
I was always quite troubled by the reminding, by the reminder.
00:17:03
And so when he was asked if he had any artistic urges, because
00:17:06
this was isn't with this hiatus lasted until the end of the 90s,
00:17:12
he replied, quote, yes, but there's something important
00:17:17
called denial. The studio was very demanding,
00:17:21
deadline orientated work. There wasn't any time UN quote.
00:17:27
So what he started doing, and that's even more painful I find
00:17:31
is he would do like Richard Serra's books, for example, had
00:17:35
a graphic design studio and he had a lot of work.
00:17:37
It was quite successful. He was working with other
00:17:40
artists and so he had this time, so 20 years, a span of 20 years,
00:17:47
mostly without producing any work.
00:17:51
And this is the important part. He came back to an art practice
00:17:57
at the end of the 90s because technologically he was
00:18:03
interested again. So he found that there were
00:18:07
something called fog machines that could work with his
00:18:11
installations. And so at the turn of the
00:18:15
century, he participates in this exhibition in 2000 by Chrissy
00:18:20
Iles, who's a very, very important curator.
00:18:23
And who, who's the exhibition Into the Lights, like reached
00:18:28
Portugal, You know, at some point, it was a big deal.
00:18:31
It had lots of reviews. It marked an era and it's funny
00:18:36
that it was in 2000 and it was very technological and at the
00:18:39
same time it was very analog. And So what happens in Anthony
00:18:44
Mccalls life is that he goes from the analog to the digital.
00:18:48
That's a really interesting story as well.
00:18:51
That will probably help us in our conversation to the fine or
00:18:55
to try and play with what exactly it is that he's doing in
00:19:00
terms of the material, the genre, what what is happening in
00:19:05
his work. What's interesting also here in
00:19:07
this Baku, which I was wondering when he has such a strong, I
00:19:13
would say conceptual. I think he's really a conceptual
00:19:17
artist and you're so much in in the landscape and successful and
00:19:23
the beauty of his career is to have not made too many works and
00:19:29
they are quite spaced in time. And I was wondering how do you
00:19:33
make a living as an artist? Because to keep such a line, not
00:19:37
to do commercial projects, you know, it's if you do one work
00:19:43
every 10 years on a retrospective way, it looks OK.
00:19:48
But on a day-to-day, how do you make a living?
00:19:52
I think his profile as an artist is a really interesting one, and
00:19:57
it's a profile that kind of defies, I think, our idea of
00:20:01
what an artist is. And I find that incredibly
00:20:04
exciting because we usually talk about women retrieving from the
00:20:08
art world, female artists having a hard time being followed,
00:20:12
having exposure. And here we have a man who had a
00:20:15
certain point. Just stepped back.
00:20:19
I think there's a beautiful encounter between concepts and
00:20:22
technology and his work that is absolutely fascinating.
00:20:25
And this because so the landscape for fire was a very
00:20:32
mathematical piece. When you look at it, you think
00:20:37
of Judy Chicago, who was also using smoke.
00:20:41
And there's a real connection between them outside in, in the
00:20:47
in the, in the landscape, in the fields.
00:20:50
But him, he was calculating, he was crunching numbers.
00:20:55
He was really, really programming things to the
00:20:57
millimeter. And what attracted him to the
00:21:00
fog machine that was activated with oil.
00:21:03
So it had a little smell, but not strong enough for him not to
00:21:08
use it. So he started using it to
00:21:10
reactivate his pieces until the haze machine was invented.
00:21:14
And the haze machine is with the sorts of starch.
00:21:17
So it's, it's, it doesn't have any odor and it is very dense.
00:21:22
It produces a very dense smoke. But another thing that happened
00:21:26
as well is that he started working with programmers.
00:21:31
So now he wasn't painting on film.
00:21:35
Now he was again calculating and drawing, so he was drawing a lot
00:21:42
and he was working with the cone.
00:21:45
That's the major thing. And he sometimes he says someone
00:21:49
questions him about him about this, and he says, yeah, I could
00:21:52
have been interested in the pyramidal shape, maybe like you
00:21:55
could have sculpted the projection.
00:21:57
But that's what's interesting, because that was what the
00:22:00
machine was doing, I think, personally.
00:22:03
Yeah, it's the cinema. It's the idea of the cinema, the
00:22:05
cone. You can think also cinema
00:22:09
Paradisio. You know the end of the movie
00:22:12
when you just see that code. This is a continuation of that
00:22:15
in a way and that's makes his were quite romantic.
00:22:20
Yeah, yes. Oh, and there's another thing in
00:22:22
this new era is that he says. Well, the titles of the pieces
00:22:26
before were very descriptive, a line describing a code.
00:22:30
So that was the time where conceptualism was at its peak.
00:22:34
It was all about being literal and descriptive.
00:22:37
So line describing a cone that. Seems I would call that DRY.
00:22:41
Dry as conceptual artists often accused of being.
00:22:46
And it is to some point. It plays that game, doesn't it?
00:22:50
And now, of course, the works that he's presenting in the
00:22:54
exhibition, you have, for example, face to face.
00:22:57
And he says that when he installed one of the 1st works
00:23:01
that he recreated, he saw the image breathing.
00:23:06
So the the 1st work that he produces is called breathing.
00:23:09
So he says, well, it was an Organism.
00:23:12
I could see that it was a body. And he doesn't prevent himself
00:23:18
from going there and from being, like you say, much more romantic
00:23:22
about it, or at least much more lyrical about the relationship
00:23:26
with the works. And he talks about also the fact
00:23:31
that he, his work is not site specific.
00:23:35
So it's geared towards the body of the the spectator.
00:23:40
And he says it's site sensitive, but it doesn't play with the
00:23:44
architecture. So it's not about playing with
00:23:48
something that is there. It's about creating, like you
00:23:52
were saying, an immersive environment for the spectator.
00:23:55
And so one thing to know about his work is that you need to be
00:23:58
in the dark. Like you said, it completely
00:24:01
subverts what you who think an exhibition is, which is
00:24:06
something very well lit on a wall to of course simplify it.
00:24:10
It's very subversive in many, many ways in terms of
00:24:13
installation. So he takes off again, a new
00:24:17
new, new start of a career. I want to highlight a moment in
00:24:22
his career because my rabbit hole of research took me there
00:24:26
to Tasmania in 2015. There's a a festival called Dark
00:24:34
Mofo in Tasmania and he created something called Night Ship for
00:24:43
the Dewent River. And so for 10 nights, Night Ship
00:24:49
was a ship that would sail along the shore with a Searchlight.
00:24:57
So it was obviously a cone of light into the night that you
00:25:00
could see in the darkness. I like the idea that the night
00:25:05
is kind of a dark room of a museum as well.
00:25:07
I like this this notion. So yes, we come to now the Tate,
00:25:14
the exhibition at the Tate You. Know now he's, he's, I don't
00:25:18
know. He's in his sixties, 70s I would
00:25:20
say. Well, he was born in 46.
00:25:24
OK, then he's Yeah, he's. In his. 70s, late 70s.
00:25:28
He also has two very good galleries, one in London and
00:25:34
Germany and then one in America. Then maybe also when you get to
00:25:37
this really established galleries, they also, you know,
00:25:43
their work is to make sure you are represented in in museum.
00:25:48
Then there is a momentum of I think what he's doing which is
00:25:53
relevant and also where he is because before if he was just a
00:25:57
graphic designer, becoming quite obscure.
00:26:01
I would say that his work is being regularly shown and
00:26:06
touring kind of the planets and the galleries that you mentioned
00:26:10
is Putmaggers in Germany and and and the UK and Sean Kelly in New
00:26:16
York. If I'm.
00:26:17
Not, yes, exactly. New York.
00:26:18
Kelly. Yeah, they're two really big
00:26:20
galleries. Liberty, apologies, I didn't
00:26:23
tell you much more than you already knew.
00:26:26
I think it is a life. No, I think On the contrary, I
00:26:30
think it's it's like his work, there is an elegance to even his
00:26:34
life. It's quite discreet.
00:26:36
And when you hear him talking, you know, even though, because I
00:26:40
was wondering, is he an American artist or an English artist?
00:26:43
And when he speaks, he's, he has a strong English accent.
00:26:47
He's he's very English. And even in the way he speaks,
00:26:50
he's very restrained, which reserve which keeps the the
00:26:56
yeah, not restrained, more reserved.
00:26:59
And the way also he presents things are very reserved.
00:27:02
Then I think you gave us a lot of clues and and that really
00:27:08
kind of goes very well with his work.
00:27:10
So what was the what was the the, the thing that kind of stay
00:27:15
with you regarding his biography?
00:27:20
That is an artist who started from the 70s in the 70s and then
00:27:25
the, the, this amazing in the, the, the, the, the first cone
00:27:32
light ease 1973, which is a long time ago.
00:27:38
And then that's what I love in his work is the the whole
00:27:43
discovery of the the haze and the way he was using before the
00:27:49
the smoke and then the dust, which kind of gives his work a
00:27:54
very bohemian feel. Yes.
00:27:58
And you know when it because it's so clean and conceptual,
00:28:01
but then you have this, this fantastic.
00:28:04
You can see it's New York, it's fun, they're smoking, it's part
00:28:09
of the crowd. And you can feel that in, in
00:28:12
that work. And I just didn't really know
00:28:15
when I hear you, I'm like, of course, that's his humanity.
00:28:18
That, that's why the work is so fantastic.
00:28:20
I think because it started so early and it's, it's, it's, it's
00:28:25
rooted in that bohemian, very artistic moment of New York.
00:28:30
You go back in time and you see where it comes from.
00:28:33
It's quite touching and moving. So I think we should go for a
00:28:38
break. Dear listeners, if you want to
00:28:40
get a cuppa, if you want a coffee, if you need to go, you
00:28:44
know, just just take this little break.
00:28:47
We'll be back very, very shortly.
00:28:50
So stay tuned, stay with us. Music.
00:29:21
Welcome back everyone. So I'm here with Liberty Mutti
00:29:24
and we are talking about Anthony Mccalls exhibition Solid Light
00:29:29
at Tate Modern. I kind of breezed through the
00:29:33
1st 2:00 rooms. I had seen Landscape of Fire,
00:29:37
the film which is in the second room before, can't remember
00:29:40
where. And the first room is very
00:29:44
technical drawings, some photos of the the works that you're
00:29:48
going to see then in the third room.
00:29:51
And so it will it is a curated exhibition.
00:29:54
It was curated by the great Gregor Moyer.
00:29:57
And so this exhibition pays attention also to the technical
00:30:01
aspect of Anthony Mccall's work. But because I knew what was
00:30:07
waiting for me in the last room and because maybe I saw so many
00:30:12
drawings of his at Martina Buchaya Gallery in Paris, which
00:30:16
I love and that are really beautiful.
00:30:19
He has really beautiful drawings.
00:30:21
These ones were far more technical.
00:30:23
So although I'm a drawing person, I, I honestly did not, I
00:30:28
have to confess, spend much time in the first room.
00:30:31
What was your your experience? The first room is very
00:30:34
technical, it's very small. And like you, I skipped it
00:30:37
because I just wanted to see the work and I just didn't have the,
00:30:44
the attention or to really, you know, get very nitty gritty.
00:30:47
And it's, it must have been a difficult decision.
00:30:51
As a curator, do you put that at the beginning to explain or do
00:30:55
you let people experience? Then you do a bright room with
00:30:59
all the drawings. You know, as a visitor, I would
00:31:01
have preferred that because you experience everything.
00:31:04
You're completely open, you're completely, you know, and then
00:31:07
you say, OK, what it is about and then you have the CD and
00:31:10
then you have the drawings. And that would have been better
00:31:14
because when I left then then you you end up in front of the
00:31:19
of the lift and then that's it. Then I skipped the first room
00:31:22
got in the second room where you have a classic movie on the wall
00:31:29
and the movie is a field, very green field with white.
00:31:37
I think it's they're all men, they're all dressed completely
00:31:40
in white, which is very 70s and very.
00:31:44
Cult like. Yeah, very cold, very John
00:31:47
Lennon. You know, they're, they're all
00:31:48
very, very long. They have long hair.
00:31:51
They have, I think maybe some beard.
00:31:54
And then they have this, this flash trousers and then the the
00:31:59
jacket which goes with it. Then it's totally 70s and they
00:32:02
are lighting every, I don't know, two or three meters.
00:32:07
They're putting these these fires and you have these fires
00:32:11
clearly in special sports on that that.
00:32:13
Was in 1972 and it's called Landscape for Fire.
00:32:17
And those people are the members of the exit group of
00:32:21
experimental cinema that he's that he's worked with.
00:32:25
Yeah. It's quite powerful.
00:32:27
It's, it's very conceptual, it's very 70s, but there is no
00:32:32
explanation. Then it kind of puts you in the
00:32:35
mood, but it's difficult to understand what it is.
00:32:39
And I was like, right then you watch it a little bit and then
00:32:44
there's a corridor or kind of A and then you just know you're
00:32:48
going to enter to something else.
00:32:50
And that's where I went. But in retrospect, this movie
00:32:55
from the 70's, the landscape for fires really stayed with me
00:33:02
because he anchors. He anchors the work.
00:33:05
He kind of and it's a very strong image.
00:33:08
They're like a bit like you said, druids.
00:33:13
They're like druids. You feel you could be in Stone
00:33:15
Age or some some weird Celtic village in in Wiltshire.
00:33:21
I don't know where it was were shot, but and he and he makes
00:33:27
sense with the work afterwards. I think then that kind of gives
00:33:30
some weight to the whole project.
00:33:34
Then from that, that room we there's a corridor and then you
00:33:40
get in very, very dark rooms where there's this projection of
00:33:47
light through a cone. Then as always in a very dark
00:33:51
room, you need some time to adapt and understand where you
00:33:55
are. Are you safe?
00:33:58
You know, like when you are a child, you kind of you touch a
00:34:01
wall to make sure this is OK. And you know, your your light,
00:34:06
your eyes will adapt to that environment.
00:34:09
And soon you will see see the grey in the black.
00:34:13
And then there's this first great work, which is I think the
00:34:16
very captivating. And it's it's in the first
00:34:19
corner in the movie at the entrance, Anthony Michael say,
00:34:23
don't look at the drawing. Look at the cone.
00:34:26
Look at where the light comes. Then I turn there and then you
00:34:30
think, oh, I'm going to be completely blinded by that
00:34:33
light. But the way it does it, you are
00:34:37
not. Then you get you have this light
00:34:39
in your in your face. And that light also creates
00:34:44
space because the way it's quite technically expense.
00:34:47
I'm not sure I completely understood how he did it, but
00:34:50
because it this projector turns, it makes in the lights makes
00:34:56
these diagonals, which are like solid blocks of they're like
00:35:03
solid blocks. But actually you can put your
00:35:05
hands through because it's only air and that's created by the
00:35:08
A's. Then it's and it's very fun.
00:35:12
You start to put your hand through it and your head and,
00:35:16
and the, the, the haze create that great atmosphere, which is
00:35:21
which breaks this really dry and very geometric aspect of the
00:35:28
work. And also the cinema thing,
00:35:30
because you are looking at the projector, the cinema, you look
00:35:33
the other way and it's just fantastic.
00:35:36
And, and I was alone then I just really got very playful in it.
00:35:41
And it's just beautiful. The lines are diagonal.
00:35:44
They're like big blocks of imagine if you had a, a big
00:35:48
glass, then it's, it's very straight.
00:35:53
The other I'm, I'm more round in the round.
00:35:55
This is very, very straight. Then you kind of go, my hands
00:35:59
was going from one side to the other.
00:36:01
You go underneath, above. Yeah, it's, it's and you touch
00:36:08
the work. Normally you're not allowed to
00:36:09
touch works because it's on the wall and here first you're in
00:36:12
the dark and then you can go through it.
00:36:15
And that's where he gets technical with him, right?
00:36:18
So he explains the way he devises the work and he's
00:36:22
incredibly careful with the right distance of the projector
00:36:26
line describing a cone, he says because it's film and it's
00:36:34
painted on, so the film is worked on, he said.
00:36:37
And because it's that kind of projector and that kind of
00:36:41
material, so the film is celluloid.
00:36:45
He says the light is very silky. The cone of lights that it
00:36:49
creates is incredibly silky. Whereas with the other
00:36:52
projectors, because it's pixels, it becomes the pixels.
00:36:56
Make it a bit, you can see the pixels and it's a bit clumpy.
00:36:59
So in both cases the the texture changes, but the light is
00:37:05
incredibly, it's almost a blue, It almost has a blue kind of
00:37:10
hue. It's really, really beautiful
00:37:13
and it's very soft. And the fog, as you say, gives
00:37:16
it a sort of a gentle atmospheric, almost Caspar David
00:37:24
Friedrich like contemplative aspect to it, only you can
00:37:28
interact with it. It's a massive impact compared
00:37:32
to the means that are used to produce the impacts.
00:37:36
So yeah, I mean and all the works are in the same room.
00:37:40
The atmosphere is so full and you see so much of that miss.
00:37:43
You're like, oh, I'm going to be a little bit temp at the end,
00:37:47
which you're not. And the machine, maybe I was.
00:37:51
We were three in the exhibition. The machine also makes a teeny
00:37:54
noise, which is like like the wind.
00:38:01
OK, because that's I think that's when then you need some
00:38:03
time to relax. You need to be really, you need
00:38:07
time to adapt to your environment.
00:38:09
When you're there, you notice the mist, you notice the age,
00:38:12
you notice the light, you notice this, this very stuff sound,
00:38:17
which is. And then, yeah, you think I'm in
00:38:21
the Highland in Scotland somewhere.
00:38:23
You know that's. But tell us how he does it.
00:38:26
So there's another thing that separates so the analogue with
00:38:30
the digital is that so and and here we enter into the
00:38:35
discussion about what it is that he's doing.
00:38:39
And you very rightly said before the break that he comes from
00:38:46
experimental film, from graphic design and from a bohemian,
00:38:52
incredibly attuned group of people who were making things
00:38:57
together. Remember this was also the time
00:38:59
where Yoko Ono, and he does mention Yoko Ono as well, was
00:39:05
making you watch a drop of water dry, you know, together in in a
00:39:11
sort of these very meditative experimental at times when
00:39:17
described a bit dry were turned into something incredibly warm
00:39:23
because they were the activities of a group of like minded people
00:39:27
who wanted to go into a higher state of mind.
00:39:31
They wanted to experiment other realities through these very
00:39:36
strange, sometimes funny when you describe them, actions and
00:39:41
happenings. And so he was coming from there
00:39:45
and but he was also coming from this idea of deconstructing
00:39:49
cinema and looking at cinema in a different way.
00:39:53
And so he used 16mm film and cameras and projectors.
00:39:59
And so one of the things that was incredibly present when I
00:40:04
experienced line describing a cone for the first time is the
00:40:08
sound of the machine. It makes it, you know, it has
00:40:13
that sound of the projector of analog cinema.
00:40:18
So the the projectors in cinemas were behind, were up there in a
00:40:23
little room behind glass, a very thick glass because they were
00:40:27
very noisy. And so you're experiencing
00:40:30
something that you don't feel in this exhibition, which is that
00:40:36
you are looking at the mechanics of a great of, of the, of the
00:40:42
machine that created a great deal of your culture until the
00:40:48
70s. In that time, you're suddenly
00:40:51
looking in, inverting your relationship to it.
00:40:55
And instead of being in a dark room, sitting and letting the
00:41:00
image do everything for you and the machine do everything for
00:41:05
you, and just absorbing a story, you are suddenly moving.
00:41:10
You are looking at the device and you are playing with the
00:41:14
cone of lights. And it's very much connected
00:41:17
with the theories of the time. So Marshall Mcluhan, who in his
00:41:22
Seminole texts declared that the medium is the message.
00:41:27
You weren't using a technique in order to get to something else.
00:41:33
The technique was the purpose of your use.
00:41:38
So if you are using electricity, you don't use electricity to get
00:41:43
to something else. You electricity is light and it
00:41:47
brings you light. And so the the the container and
00:41:52
the contained are exactly the same thing.
00:41:54
And so the machine that is bringing the image is actually
00:41:59
the message and not the the story that it is projecting.
00:42:03
And you need at that time there was this whole theory as well
00:42:08
that said, you know, pay attention to the spectacle of
00:42:14
the images that are surrounding you because they depend upon
00:42:19
this. And this is what is creating
00:42:21
your relationship to the world. So at the time, that line
00:42:26
describing a cone was a drawing on the wall with a projector
00:42:31
with light. But it was also a discourse
00:42:33
about the culture. And I, if I may say very quickly
00:42:40
that my PhD was about Solowitz and Douglas Hubler in connection
00:42:46
to a French inventor of the 19th century called Etienne Jules
00:42:52
Maher. And this man was fascinating
00:42:55
because he invented graphic recording machines or he
00:42:59
systematize them. He expanded their use.
00:43:02
They were invented in Germany. So he would take a picture of a
00:43:06
jump in its different stages and he would produce a graphic
00:43:11
rendering of the jump. So you have the photo machine,
00:43:14
the photo or the the the cinematic image, and then you
00:43:18
have the graphic that went with it.
00:43:20
But he so now if you look up it's Engine Marie or Edward
00:43:24
Muybridge, you're going to say they're artists and they were
00:43:27
amazing. Who are these geniuses?
00:43:29
But actually, let's forget Muybridge.
00:43:32
It's Angel Marie was a scientist.
00:43:34
And So what he was doing is that he was not interested in the
00:43:39
beauty of the image that he didn't find beautiful.
00:43:42
By the way, he didn't consider them beautiful and he wasn't
00:43:45
interested in the image as it represents reality.
00:43:48
He then would use a technique to extract the movement, so he
00:43:57
would make these graphic renderings of the movement and
00:44:00
he would discard the photo itself with the person in the
00:44:05
different stages of the jump or whatever movement it was.
00:44:08
So he had the capacity of inventing cinema.
00:44:13
At a certain point he fell out with George de Mini, who was his
00:44:15
assistant who wanted to create these moving images and show
00:44:19
them to people. And Maher said why?
00:44:22
Why? I know what reality looks like.
00:44:24
What I want is to use it to dissect movement and understand
00:44:29
it. I'm not interested in something
00:44:31
that replicates what I already see.
00:44:34
And in the 70s you reconnect with this scientific stunts, but
00:44:39
in a cultural dissection of the culture that eventually got
00:44:47
interested in the moving image as it represents the world and
00:44:50
not the graphic rendering that it could have become.
00:44:55
So it's really interesting to see that that's work is very,
00:44:58
very deep into that era. And then when new technologies
00:45:04
appear, which were kind of what dragged him again into his
00:45:07
artistic practice, things are completely different.
00:45:10
They're not noisy, they're not smelly, they don't need
00:45:13
cigarette smoke, and they create a completely different
00:45:17
environment. And it's interesting how you
00:45:19
describe it because you don't have that presence of the
00:45:23
machine as much, right? How do?
00:45:28
You ideally just have this line slowly building on, on the
00:45:32
opposite of the code. Then you know there is a
00:45:34
technicality, but you don't see the machinery.
00:45:38
You don't it, it's all about it's, I think the title of the
00:45:43
exhibition is brilliant. It's solid light.
00:45:46
That's what it is about. It's about touching the light,
00:45:50
what it is and and despite this conceptual, you know, way he
00:45:58
works and his practice, which is very pure and which is you
00:46:04
really go in depth and he's he's going slowly and he's building
00:46:08
all these things. You end up in an environment
00:46:11
where you don't feel the machine you are that that's why I loved
00:46:15
in that exhibition is once you settle, then the first one is
00:46:20
about going through the this kind of solid light of like a
00:46:25
glass and you go through that and you hear the noise and you
00:46:28
have the aids and and suddenly I just felt I was reconnecting
00:46:33
with the environment. There is something very
00:46:35
environmental about that and that's brings back to the 70s
00:46:39
also. It's what you can see how
00:46:43
fragile is our world. You know, it's just all these
00:46:46
little particles. It's nothing, but it's what
00:46:49
makes us. And that's when the magic
00:46:51
happens. I think it's, it's you
00:46:54
understand that you are dust yourself and you are part of the
00:46:57
universe and everything is invisible.
00:47:00
But yet you can see it. You know, it makes, I think
00:47:03
that's the main thing it makes invisible visible.
00:47:08
And that's a movie in a way. And you are in that movie.
00:47:11
And that's where I completely broke.
00:47:14
I was like, Oh my God, this is so beautiful.
00:47:18
Then that's kind of the effect and and some there was two or
00:47:21
three people talking on the corner and that really annoyed
00:47:24
me. And they were somewhere just
00:47:27
breathing and you're like, just go away.
00:47:29
I'm in my universe. And then in the other
00:47:32
installation, the people are important because they cut the
00:47:35
light. Then they are, they are then the
00:47:38
the the that's the first one is a cone and then the second one
00:47:43
where I went was the one which is this it it's all about
00:47:49
arabesque. It's it's quite an ellipse and
00:47:52
then the it's very in the round. I don't know the name of that
00:47:57
one. Is it doubling back or face to
00:48:02
face? So the the works that he has
00:48:04
doubling back face to face and split second mirror which is
00:48:08
from 2018. So doubling back is from 2003.
00:48:12
I think that's doubling back. Yeah, I think.
00:48:16
Because and that's all the Arabs.
00:48:17
Yeah, yeah. And then that's where I went
00:48:20
second. And because it's it's all in in,
00:48:24
in that kind of yeah, Arabs line.
00:48:26
Basically it's. Kind of like the Infinity.
00:48:28
Symbol. Yes, exactly.
00:48:29
And now you are in a very different well, I was in a very
00:48:32
different spirit because he I wear skirts or dresses and it's
00:48:37
like the the the the helm of a of a dress in a way.
00:48:42
And you start to want to, I wanted to dance, you know, it
00:48:46
brings a lot of joy because it's all in the round and it's
00:48:50
twirling and you want to catch and take that light.
00:48:53
And that was very playful, this one.
00:48:56
And then the the third one I went to and that's where I
00:48:59
really settled was, I think face to face where you have you have
00:49:05
a screen in the middle, then one cone hit a screen and the the
00:49:09
other cone hit the other side. And then you catch in a
00:49:14
landscape in a way, bringing back to the first movie, the the
00:49:18
light is all, it's really a cone.
00:49:21
You are in that cone. And then you, I felt I was like,
00:49:25
in the universe, you are in The Big Bang basically.
00:49:28
And you can go in and out and you really see the smoke.
00:49:32
And then I sat down and I saw people going through and that
00:49:37
was really where the magic happened.
00:49:40
And there is a concept which I think he talks about, of
00:49:45
slowness. And for me, that's the second
00:49:50
very important part of his work. You know, there's something
00:49:54
environmental about it. And then the second thing is the
00:49:57
slowness. He makes you stop and he makes
00:50:01
you take your time. And it's very, very steady.
00:50:05
The, you know, it's the movie is not too long.
00:50:07
It's not 3 hours, but it's not 5 minutes.
00:50:10
It's just 20 minutes, very time. And he, he has this effect of
00:50:16
slowing and slowing and staying. And I think people are staying a
00:50:20
long time. And I stayed, I don't know how
00:50:23
long it, it felt like infinite. I'm quite a quickie.
00:50:26
Normally when I go to exhibition, I can zoom in, but
00:50:29
I'm, I'm quick And there I just, I just stand still for a long
00:50:34
time. And that's a success.
00:50:36
That's where you are. That for me, that's becomes
00:50:42
really a work about it. It really takes you.
00:50:45
What was your feeling going through it?
00:50:50
Maybe because of my interest in Mahe and this phenomenon that I
00:50:54
think is our phenomenon at the moment, which is all the images
00:50:58
we're looking at, our digital, and behind them there's a code,
00:51:02
There's an abstract mesh of symbols and codes and lines and
00:51:08
graphics that we're not aware of, but all the images we're
00:51:11
looking at are made of that and it's engine.
00:51:14
Mahe showed us that all movement in strength is translatable into
00:51:18
those codes. And Mahe also had to wait until
00:51:23
we invented computers for his imagery and his invention to
00:51:27
work fully, because only computer can calculate records
00:51:32
and archive all the information that you gather when you recall
00:51:36
movement. So in some ways he started
00:51:39
something that was then pursued by digital, by computing and by
00:51:44
coding, by algorithms and by the mathematics behind computers.
00:51:49
And Mccool the same thing. He reconnected with technology.
00:51:53
And I find it really interesting that the the atmosphere he
00:51:58
creates is so connected to the technologies we're using
00:52:02
nowadays. But it's kind of showing both.
00:52:07
He's showing the Ixels drawing and making something that was
00:52:12
rogrammed by someone who knows how to do that.
00:52:16
They were drawn by him, and then they're created in the space, in
00:52:20
a very specific located relationship with you as a body
00:52:25
and with your imagination and with your own culture, your own
00:52:29
background, your own physical. If you're in a wheelchair,
00:52:33
you're going to your head's going to cut through the cone.
00:52:36
If you're a child, you're going to experience it differently.
00:52:39
It roots you. It roots you in your own body
00:52:43
and suddenly with the universe. And it is such a beautiful
00:52:47
experience, that kind of solipsistic presence of the
00:52:51
projection. And the machine that's behind it
00:52:54
has this kind of passive wisdom almost that is conveyed through
00:53:03
the machine. And I'm really interested in AI
00:53:07
at the moment and the metaverse and everything that it's doing
00:53:11
and what we're doing with it. And I think that there is
00:53:15
something that we can learn from machines.
00:53:18
I think machines have a kind of presence in the way they learn
00:53:22
from us. And there's a lot of fiction out
00:53:27
there about that. And we're living exactly the
00:53:30
opposite. We're at in the hands of
00:53:32
Zuckerberg and Musk and who are reducing machines to
00:53:36
manipulative, creepy creatures. And then you have artists who
00:53:41
are creating machines that can live with us and can teach us
00:53:45
about time and can teach us about our own bodies through
00:53:49
difference. And I think that was kind of, it
00:53:54
is so timely. You, like we said, he's in his
00:53:56
late 70s, and yet I think he has this affinity with machines that
00:54:02
I find really beautiful and that I find really hopeful as well.
00:54:07
Then on to pick up on what you said.
00:54:09
Then there's three things which are interesting where where I
00:54:13
just want to add something. Only three.
00:54:16
That I can't remember then in the relation with the others, I
00:54:25
was pretty alone then I wanted my loneliness.
00:54:28
I wanted the universe to belong to me.
00:54:30
I wanted that's what I wanted the cocoon.
00:54:33
And you know, you were in a very different experience because it
00:54:38
was like a party and people were jumping around and experiencing
00:54:42
these in a more playful where McCall talks about, he says his
00:54:48
work a lot about people, the encounter, which I didn't really
00:54:54
understand because I was like, no, it's about you and your
00:54:57
perception. And I think with your
00:54:59
experience, I understand better. And I think he's interested in
00:55:04
how people are getting in the space and how people are looking
00:55:09
at the others, how you invade your own space.
00:55:12
And that's part of his work. And he talks about that the.
00:55:15
First thing I thought was friendships and couples were
00:55:19
born in this space. OK, but I not for me, but
00:55:24
clearly. And, and that's part of his
00:55:25
practice. And then the other thing is
00:55:28
about the slowness. And he also speaks about that
00:55:30
and I really experience it for myself.
00:55:33
And I loved it. And he, a journalist asked him
00:55:37
about a cell phone because of course, you know, it's so
00:55:40
beautiful. People love to take selfies.
00:55:43
And there is a photo of his work where everyone is looking at the
00:55:47
cone and someone is taking a selfie, which is so today, but
00:55:53
the the the curator was asking him and he was like, Oh yeah,
00:55:57
made me cringe a little bit at the beginning.
00:55:59
And but then he he comes to terms with it because he's happy
00:56:04
people, people are taking selfies.
00:56:07
It, you know, it's, it has its silliness.
00:56:09
But in his practice, he sinks that help people to stay longer.
00:56:15
And then that that kind of helps him with slowing down
00:56:20
everything. And I thought that's very
00:56:22
interesting how he has integrating integrated in his
00:56:26
mind and his in his practice, the way society is behaving.
00:56:31
He didn't like it, but then now he sees it as something
00:56:35
interesting, which which I like because of course you want to
00:56:42
take selfies there, but you know, do you want to do that or
00:56:45
not? You know, it's it's because it's
00:56:48
a space made for that. And I think Tate, of course, is
00:56:50
playing on that. And the sad thing I wanted to
00:56:52
mention in what you you said is Daisy experience, which is very
00:56:59
strong. And then as a curator or, you
00:57:02
know, someone who looks at the exhibition, there's a whole
00:57:07
aspect of his practice which is, I think very pure and very slow.
00:57:16
And it takes one thing very seriously.
00:57:20
And then there's a drawing aspect.
00:57:22
And then you have the film aspect.
00:57:24
And then you have the, is it a sculpture or is it what is a
00:57:28
sculpture? And then you have also, it's
00:57:30
quite architectural. You know, the space is
00:57:32
important. And when you look at his work,
00:57:34
there's a lot of things around his work, drawing, film,
00:57:40
sculpture, happening, immersive. Where do you put him?
00:57:47
And then that's very interesting, but that's all very
00:57:49
intellectual, while his work I think is is very tactile and
00:57:55
very simple in the way you interact with it.
00:57:57
Then I'm interested in that dynamic of, and then the first
00:58:01
room is all about that, this very technical drawing, very
00:58:04
dry. And then you have the experience
00:58:07
and did you feel that dynamic and does that interest you as a
00:58:11
curator? Yeah, it's such a good question
00:58:15
and we did mention that in the beginning.
00:58:19
I'm more interested in the way he interacts with new
00:58:23
technologies and what it says about how we're living in the
00:58:29
world with them. Because the whole question.
00:58:32
And that's why it was so interesting to go back to that
00:58:35
moment in my emerging career at the time.
00:58:39
I was so young, 25 years ago, you know, I was 24.
00:58:44
And I remember being excited by the intellectual aspect of it
00:58:48
and by the rhetoric of is it film?
00:58:52
Is it conceptual? Is it a drawing?
00:58:54
Is it sculpture? Is it cinema?
00:58:57
And now I find that it's all of it and.
00:59:02
It is. I think that's a conclusion.
00:59:04
It is. Right.
00:59:06
And the fact that there's drawing in there and graphic
00:59:09
design, I'm preaching to my own choir, obviously, as artistic
00:59:13
director of drawing. Now, I think that drawing has
00:59:16
that incredibly proteaic form of connecting languages.
00:59:27
The line is there. He did draw.
00:59:30
He studied graphic design. He also studied photography, and
00:59:33
for me, the idea of drawing and technology is very connected.
00:59:39
I think that that's kind of is the axis in some ways, but it
00:59:43
doesn't make it about that. It's very Renaissance in some
00:59:47
ways because the drawing in the Renaissance was the father of
00:59:50
all arts. So it was the patriarch and but
00:59:53
it disappeared into the masterpiece.
00:59:54
You didn't see a painting by or a sculpture by Michelangelo and
00:59:59
think, oh, drawing. But for the artist it was the
01:00:01
most important skill. So he also is very classical in
01:00:06
that, in those terms that excites me as someone who likes
01:00:10
to think about things. So personally, obviously, I will
01:00:14
think about. The dynamics of the languages
01:00:18
that are, are being used. But in terms of genres, I find
01:00:22
that conversation quite old. And I think it's, it's, it's
01:00:28
about the passion of the artist. So sometimes you talk to an
01:00:32
artist who's making videos and they tell you, for me, painting
01:00:38
is the the, the, the guiding light of my practice.
01:00:42
And you take it and you listen and you think, OK, that's
01:00:45
interesting and it helps you carry that work with you and,
01:00:50
and enter entering it. But in your experience of the
01:00:54
work, it doesn't really matter because it's surpasses whatever
01:01:01
technicality the artist is dealing with.
01:01:05
Once you've experienced the work, it's interesting to know
01:01:07
all these things and to revisit the work.
01:01:10
Exactly. There is different layers and I
01:01:12
see more like layers than something you have to put
01:01:15
together. And then if you are into
01:01:17
architecture, then you might study that side of his work.
01:01:19
And if you are into drawing, you might look at the drawing he.
01:01:23
Does say that the architecture doesn't interest him, but you
01:01:26
keep talking about it, so that's your relationship to it, which
01:01:30
is valid. And I think you're right, there
01:01:33
is something with the architecture there that he seems
01:01:37
to be uninterested in. Then there's one thing I would
01:01:41
like to speak about and, and which is intriguing for me when
01:01:47
I look at his work, when I think of his work and, you know, not
01:01:51
when I was dead, I didn't really know what was the year and when
01:01:57
they were made. And actually it was really, you
01:01:59
know, very surprised they were so early because for me, in the
01:02:05
last maybe 10 years, 10 to 15 years, we've seen more and more
01:02:10
immersive works for different reasons.
01:02:12
I think museum are very happy to have that because I engage the
01:02:17
audience in a different way that, you know, it's, it's
01:02:22
different to I think a museum before you used to walk in, you
01:02:25
have to make an effort, look, understand, read.
01:02:28
If you're an immersive work, it's very different.
01:02:30
And we've seen more and more of that.
01:02:33
And then in the even in the commercial world, we've seen
01:02:36
more of that because you've got some team lab, for example,
01:02:41
which is this, I don't know there.
01:02:43
I think it's an association between technology and artist.
01:02:48
And they create this super mega environment with movies of
01:02:52
flowers falling and they're incredible to to experience.
01:02:56
I found them a little bit empty, but they are really incredible.
01:03:00
And then I think pace is behind that and it's called super blue.
01:03:06
And then to pay for the installation, you and the making
01:03:11
of the installation, they sell tickets.
01:03:13
Then it becomes in between art and commercial.
01:03:19
And then you have also a new thing which has emerged, which
01:03:22
is called I think the City of the Lights where you have
01:03:26
classic blue chip like Van Gogh, Orkney, Estonard, Medigliani.
01:03:32
And they kind of put in motion their work, which is, you know,
01:03:38
when you look at them, you know, maybe you're going to be
01:03:41
disappointed when you look at the work itself compared to the
01:03:43
experience you can have even in in USA they did an exhibition of
01:03:47
1874, the first Impressionist exhibition.
01:03:52
And there was the exhibition and next door there was the full on
01:03:58
experimental immersive experience.
01:04:02
And and McCall is in that field. But in a way he has stayed very
01:04:07
pure to his practice. And he could, you know, you say,
01:04:10
Oh yeah, he's very into technology, but he has taken
01:04:13
technology in a very, very, very selective way, which only serves
01:04:18
him and very carefully. And that I found very beautiful.
01:04:23
And that I found in a very courageous to not just fall for
01:04:29
things because it's easy. Technology is explosing, We're
01:04:32
exploring. And it's not.
01:04:33
It's like, OK, what is important for me?
01:04:35
What works. Yeah.
01:04:39
And as a curator, what do you think of all this new immersive
01:04:43
works? And where do you place my call
01:04:45
in that? Well, I think that there's two
01:04:49
different things, which is artists who are now exploring
01:04:54
new technologies and immersive technologies.
01:04:58
And I, when you were talking about immersive environments, I
01:05:02
was thinking, oh, but that's a very 70s thing.
01:05:04
Think La Monte, Young, Tanya Muro.
01:05:07
So many people who created these chambers sealed my rails in in
01:05:11
Brazil. Julia Park.
01:05:13
Yeah, Julio Park. You know, Julio Park, maybe I
01:05:17
don't. Know Julio?
01:05:18
Yeah, Julio. Right, so there it's a very 70s
01:05:24
thing that was very connected with meditation, altered states,
01:05:29
psychedelics, drug induced altered states, etcetera.
01:05:36
So and the mind is a drug in in some ways and and getting there
01:05:39
through music or through a a stable sound like the ohm of
01:05:44
meditation. All of that was in those
01:05:47
installations. And Mccool also comes from
01:05:53
there. You know, there's there's this
01:05:54
idea of suddenly the cinema is merging with a potentially much
01:05:59
more heightened space of experience.
01:06:03
And Q to now where you have these technologies and that's
01:06:08
where it is very interesting because Mccool came at the end
01:06:15
of the technology and kind of dried it out and expanded it in
01:06:21
its elemental quality. Whereas now you have a new
01:06:25
technology emerging. You're not coming to the end of
01:06:29
the metaverse and thinking, I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to
01:06:33
invert this. We're now experimenting with it.
01:06:36
And it's the task of the artists to come and say, OK, I am not
01:06:42
going to be manipulated by this. I'm going to manipulate it and
01:06:47
I'm going to work with it and see where it I can take it as
01:06:52
opposed to where it can take me or collaborate with it.
01:06:55
So you have. And I urge you to, dear
01:06:59
listener, if you haven't listened to my interview with
01:07:01
Auron Descalera and Alfredo Camerotti called Will AI Kill
01:07:07
the Exhibition Star? Do it because we talk a lot
01:07:11
about these things. And we talk about artists who
01:07:13
are doing poetry, we're doing drawing, we're doing music with
01:07:18
AI or sound installations with AI, which are not what you would
01:07:23
think. Spaces where you forget about
01:07:27
yourself, like in cinema, and suddenly you're so taken by what
01:07:31
you're seeing that it becomes entertainment.
01:07:34
I think you're drawing the line between a real metaphysical
01:07:37
experience of the artwork and entertainment where you're where
01:07:41
it's just escapism and which is fine and.
01:07:44
I I don't know is it? Really not against it.
01:07:46
Is that acceptable? But I think the landscape is
01:07:49
changing. And Mccoy's anchor before that.
01:07:53
And I really like the way he's threading very carefully on that
01:07:58
entertainment, not entertainment.
01:08:00
And the the creator, I don't know why they chose to show him.
01:08:04
But at the same time, at Tate, you have another exhibition
01:08:07
which echoes very well my, my, my call, which I yeah, it's
01:08:12
called Electrical Dreams. And it's kind of discovering all
01:08:17
the technology in the 60s and 70s and it works very well.
01:08:22
And it's very important to see it with my colon.
01:08:25
And it's, it's the, the what they've done at Ted is super
01:08:28
interesting and it's really worth seeing both.
01:08:32
I don't want to dwell into that. Maybe that's another episode,
01:08:35
but that's really a good compliment.
01:08:39
That's great that you say that, because I was thinking about
01:08:43
another answer to your question, which is that one of the things
01:08:47
that McCall has discussed in an an article for tape papers is
01:08:54
that line describing a cone is becoming damaged.
01:09:00
So the film is not how it was in the beginning.
01:09:03
So it has specks of light. And he says that he loves that.
01:09:07
He loves the fact that the film. Is.
01:09:09
Used has aged and as cellular as it happens with celluloid, it's
01:09:15
kind of becoming like a sort of a starry night kind of thing.
01:09:18
It's not as black as the digital, he says.
01:09:21
The digital files will remain unchanged.
01:09:26
They're not going to age like celluloid is aging.
01:09:30
And so there's two possibilities for beyond his time, let's say.
01:09:36
So the curator interviewing him asked over the scholar.
01:09:40
I don't know who, I can't remember who was asked him.
01:09:43
So what is your decision regarding light line describing
01:09:48
a cone? Will you let it die or will you
01:09:51
accept to have it transferred onto a digital file?
01:09:55
And so he said, I'm very lucky because I can decide this
01:10:00
myself. I want line describing a cone to
01:10:04
be what it is and I would accept to have it transferred onto a
01:10:14
digital file as it is so aged with the specs of light and with
01:10:19
a very imprecise line. So he says that the line is not
01:10:23
is not precise. If you look at it carefully,
01:10:26
it's not like the Digital 1, so it's not like the post 2000
01:10:29
works where the line is perfect. It's not razor sharp.
01:10:32
It's not razor sharp. What he is willing to do is do a
01:10:37
line describing a cone 2 point O, which would be the version of
01:10:45
that work in digital form, and it's two different works.
01:10:50
So for him, there is no, there's a completely different aspect to
01:10:57
his works and a different connection to technology to what
01:11:03
it is an immersive experience. And you're right in pointing out
01:11:09
the entertainment side of the Van Gogh exhibition, for
01:11:12
example, where suddenly you are experiencing his colors, his
01:11:19
palettes moving about, which I'm absolutely not against.
01:11:25
I think it's great. I think it's amazing that you
01:11:28
get to somehow be in the the mind and the perception of the
01:11:32
artist, because when you're making a painting is the exact
01:11:37
reverse of when you're experiencing a painting.
01:11:40
You're in the material, you're in the material aspect of it.
01:11:44
Of course, that immersive experience will not give you the
01:11:46
smell of the paint, will not give you the touch, will not
01:11:49
give you the concentration of the making of the color,
01:11:54
whatever. But it may allow you to be,
01:12:00
especially knowing that Van Gogh's mental health was
01:12:04
incredibly affected. He had visions, and he seems to,
01:12:11
he seemed to have synesthesia and he was taking medication
01:12:14
that kind of turned everything yellow for him.
01:12:17
So that perception was his own perception.
01:12:22
And like Kusama, the same thing. Why do these artists create
01:12:26
these immersive environments? Kusama, you know, has OCD, if
01:12:31
I'm not mistaken. I mean, she has this kind of
01:12:33
obsessive compulsive behavior or compulsive behaviors.
01:12:36
She interned herself into a mental health capacity.
01:12:43
So facility. So there's these altered states
01:12:47
that maybe can help you go into those states in the easier
01:12:54
because don't forget Michelle took mescaline.
01:12:58
So many artists and and and musicians were under the
01:13:03
influence in the 70s. I just don't want them to
01:13:07
replace the experience of the work, but I think they can be.
01:13:11
It's like watching a film. I now I find myself filming
01:13:15
paintings and it really enjoying that experience because I
01:13:19
noticed they don't. When I watch documentaries about
01:13:22
painters I enjoy so much being so close because you can't now
01:13:29
you have alarms. Like you can't get close to
01:13:31
paintings but you can with a camera.
01:13:34
Is it still the painting? Who cares in some ways if it's
01:13:38
giving you something and if it's doing you good and creating a
01:13:44
different experience than that of watching an influencer
01:13:48
selling weight loss tea on Instagram?
01:13:54
Yeah, yeah. You can have many forms and I
01:13:56
think you know where we're going.
01:13:57
It's all about that, that Now I think the question is for some
01:14:01
museum is how do they want the audience to experience a museum?
01:14:06
And you don't want to transform a museum as a kind of
01:14:12
entertainment park. You know that says a fine line
01:14:16
and but you also want your audience to come.
01:14:18
Then I think that's that's more the role of the director and the
01:14:21
creator to really think how you know how want how much you want
01:14:24
to push the boundaries for this very big kind of city of the
01:14:28
Lumiere where you enhance everything great.
01:14:32
But they I found as a as a modern art.
01:14:38
If I say especially it's, it's, I'm just a little bit worried
01:14:43
that, you know, when you see the real thing, you'll get
01:14:46
disappointed because if you keep henancing when you go first you
01:14:50
have to make an effort when you look at things.
01:14:53
And then also, you know, it's dusty, it's smaller, the colours
01:14:58
are faded over time. When this works, you know by
01:15:00
Vongo Monet or you know they are old, they are 150 years old and
01:15:05
and then are they going to be disappointing in the flesh?
01:15:11
There is also this movement now towards in a lot of younger
01:15:16
artists, towards a real contact with materials, with Earth, with
01:15:21
the pencil, because if there's two people who grew up in this
01:15:25
technology will be sick of it, you know, it will be too much.
01:15:30
It will be too, too, I think, too.
01:15:37
What's the words to to available to it it it's?
01:15:43
I think like always, you you. You want something else?
01:15:46
Yeah, but you rediscover the roots.
01:15:48
You know, I think every generation does that.
01:15:50
And going back to the, you know, they did that in the 70s also,
01:15:55
you know, looking at at, you know, when MACO was looking at
01:15:59
fire and water and air in a very simple concept.
01:16:03
Exactly. And light and it's all about the
01:16:06
light, right? I have one final question
01:16:09
because we must go, we have to go.
01:16:12
I wanted to give this conversation to us something
01:16:15
completely different, but it was it's always such a joy to talk
01:16:18
with you that we've of course we improvised.
01:16:21
But I wanted to ask you, so Anthony McCall is one of those
01:16:25
artists that we can call the one trick pony, right?
01:16:28
He does. And because collectors, when you
01:16:31
talk to collectors, people who buy art, they're always
01:16:34
concerned with this idea. A lot of them are concerned with
01:16:37
this idea of novelty. Like, oh, this artist is always
01:16:39
doing the same thing. Oh, this is exhibition is the
01:16:41
same thing they did before. So it it is a thing, isn't it?
01:16:47
To kind of realize that this artist not only is A1 trick
01:16:50
pony, but he also was absent for a long time from the art world.
01:16:57
What do you make of that? Is that a problem, as you know,
01:17:01
maybe from the market perspective, from your
01:17:03
perspective? And what do we expect from
01:17:06
artists and what is an artistic career?
01:17:09
What is it? Is it problematic?
01:17:12
Well, lots of question in one questions.
01:17:17
Well, first, in the case of Anthony McCall, I haven't spoken
01:17:21
to the to these galleries, but I would think, you know, he's not
01:17:26
what we call a commercial artist and people who will buy his
01:17:30
work, maybe he can buy a drawing, but then that would be
01:17:34
in a very specific collection because you need to know the
01:17:38
work to buy the kind of back works and otherwise you will buy
01:17:43
the installation, which then you need to be an institution.
01:17:46
Then first as a, you know, pure commercial artist is in a
01:17:50
special category, which which is yeah, and you know, he's more an
01:17:56
artist you will show unlimited or you would do a, you know, you
01:18:00
will take the whole gallery with an installation.
01:18:03
Then that's already puts him in a different category.
01:18:07
So Unlimited is a section of an art fair called Art Basel where
01:18:13
you expose monumental works. It's a huge warehouse where
01:18:18
galleries galleries who are participating in the fair, in
01:18:21
their booths, they can propose a major big monumental artwork.
01:18:26
Sorry, just a parenthesis for those who don't know.
01:18:28
Then that's on the commercial side.
01:18:29
Now on the really the the carrier.
01:18:33
Every artist is different and some artists, their practice is
01:18:39
to renew themselves a lot. Sometime when I go and see a
01:18:45
retrospective, you might walk out and say, Oh my God, he's
01:18:48
quite repetitive. And, and even some very big
01:18:51
artist, you're like the retrospective kind of killed him
01:18:55
a little bit because he's, he's found no, but sometime an artist
01:19:00
find a kind of a cosy corner and that's kind of for me, what I
01:19:03
call a trademark. And that's where you lose
01:19:05
interest in my calls case. Look, you know, when I hear you
01:19:14
telling about his life and and his practice, there is a
01:19:19
slowness about it and something very careful, which is maybe due
01:19:25
to, you know, the fact that, you know, he couldn't set his work
01:19:29
or the the landscape has changed.
01:19:31
It might just not be on his own factor.
01:19:36
But actually that plays in his favour because suddenly you turn
01:19:40
your head and you realise he's been so true to his own
01:19:44
practice, to his own research, and the slowness has integrated
01:19:48
this, you know, work, which is then it's very admirable and
01:19:54
it's very pure and it's very real.
01:19:56
And then that goes well with his body of work then.
01:20:02
And that doesn't make him less interesting in a way.
01:20:08
And why not? You can create just one
01:20:11
important work of art in your life and it's OK.
01:20:15
You know who said you have to create 5000?
01:20:19
You know, some artists are about perfection and there is
01:20:22
something very precise and perfectionist about his work.
01:20:29
Then I'm not, I don't know, I'm not really puzzled about that.
01:20:35
I was more wondering about him. I was like, what do you do in
01:20:40
between? You know, you need to have some
01:20:41
nerves to, to, to wait, big nerves because life goes on.
01:20:47
People ask you need money. You know, it's, it's how do you
01:20:50
survive all these years? Yeah, I mean, he was a graphic
01:20:54
designer, so I think. That wasn't.
01:20:56
I didn't. I think work probably got in the
01:20:59
way as well of his practice, right?
01:21:01
But yeah, it's interesting when you say, 'cause I think there's
01:21:05
always this expectation of artists to have a certain kind
01:21:10
of career and to be the, we have a romantic idea of the artist as
01:21:18
this filter through which the world goes through that will
01:21:23
deliver a, a, a vision of the world.
01:21:27
And the job of the artist is to go across time and keep on
01:21:31
filtering and keep on producing images that will come from them,
01:21:36
but also kind of reflect us in the world.
01:21:39
And there's kind of their job. That's what they're here to do.
01:21:43
And there's an expectation of a continuation in time.
01:21:47
But creativity is so much more than that.
01:21:49
And it's your worry about McCall is because you know, so many
01:21:54
artists and you know how hard it is to have a creative output
01:21:57
that makes sense to you and also make a living in parallel to
01:22:03
that. So it, it it's so interesting
01:22:06
that your mind went there and, and, and thought about his
01:22:09
survival. You know, how did he make it?
01:22:11
You know, how did he live? How was I, was he OK?
01:22:15
And you had this worry about him, which I find so moving and
01:22:20
so interesting. Just wanted to add that he does
01:22:22
have drawings. There's, there's these beautiful
01:22:23
drawings of his. I'm not sure he's prolific in,
01:22:28
in that sense, but I guess if you're a private collector, I
01:22:31
guess you could still have a photo or a drawing of his.
01:22:35
But as you say, he's more of an institutional artist.
01:22:39
He will be, you know, in, in presented in museum collections
01:22:44
and private foundations and, and the like for sure.
01:22:48
So liberty, I think we've come to the end of it.
01:22:54
It was really a pleasure to see that exhibition and I will urge
01:22:58
anyone to go and see it and experience it for themselves
01:23:03
because it's, it's, he's a beautiful artist.
01:23:06
The, the, the, the five work 5 works presented are beautiful
01:23:12
and they really add to the discourse.
01:23:14
And then if you have time, go also and see Electric Dreams,
01:23:18
which is finishing in a month, I think because they are really
01:23:23
explaining they're the roots of what's coming basically.
01:23:27
And I thought it was fascinating that they could put that
01:23:30
together. Thank you so much for staying
01:23:34
with us, for sticking with us. It was such a pleasure.
01:23:37
Thank you so much, Liberty for coming back to the podcast.
01:23:40
It was, as ever, a pleasure to to exchange views with you and
01:23:47
to all of you out there. Have a great, great couple of
01:23:50
weeks and we will be with you very, very soon.
01:23:55
Thank you so much, Liberty. Thank you, Joanna.
01:23:58
Bye. Bye.
01:23:59
Bye bye everyone, take care.