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Hello exhibitionistas. Welcome to another episode of
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the podcast with me, your host Joanna Pianevis.
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Today we have the OG format of exhibitionistas, so if you're
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new here or if you've been distracted, we have segments
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now. So we have different types of
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episodes in this podcast, but we started the first season with
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one single format that is now called exhibition Chinwag, and
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it was a very simple formula that was incredibly satisfying
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to record. And apparently you enjoy it as
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well, which is me, the dusty specialist inviting a guest who
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doesn't work in the industry and who discusses an exhibition with
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me. Emily Harding was my Co host.
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She was the non art specialist, the exhibition goer as she
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called herself during the whole of the first season.
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So today is the OG format. But I would say that today is
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the OG of the OG because my guest is precisely the one and
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only Emily Harding, back by popular demand.
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And this time we visited the exhibition together.
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Why visit the exhibition separately?
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So now is the time to tell you what exhibition we are going to
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talk about. If you haven't read the title of
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the episode, it can happen. Sometimes you're playing a
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podcast episode, then another one follows and you don't know.
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So we are going to talk about Emily came Naray, who is or was
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she passed away in 1996 an Aboriginal artists.
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And for that reason precisely, I decided to invite someone from
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Down Under. John McDonald, an art critic
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from Australia, hopped into the episodes and contributed with
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his side of the story. Because I'm I don't know John.
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We've never met in person, we've never talked beyond or before
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the episode. But I read a text of his on Sup
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stack and it was the first article.
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I was investigating this episode and it was the first article
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where I learned something beyond what everyone says about Emily
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Nare. For example, one of the first
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things that John says in his article is that he knows from a
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pretty reliable source that the spelling of Emily Kame Nare's
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name was changed by a linguist against the wishes of Emily Kame
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Nare. And he makes an interesting
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point, which is, Can you imagine if you decided to spell Agnes
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Martin by replacing the I with AY?
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You would not do that. But because she is from a very
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specific community, because she is not white, because she
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doesn't have power that was changed against her will.
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The idea of this episode is precisely to empower you, my
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dear, dear, dear listener, and also ourselves, our
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professionals and my guests to enjoy exhibitions regardless of
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what we know about the artist, what we know about the
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exhibition and also to then re evaluate the experience through
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the knowledge acquired across the episode.
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The knowledge is not to shatter the first impression, it is just
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an additional form of relating to the work, sometimes expanding
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the satisfaction and other times providing an insight into
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certain issues regarding curating for example, or
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institutional conditions of programming, for instance.
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The more you know, the more you enjoy.
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And also, if you lose a tiny bit of your innocence, I think you
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acquire something else, which is the expansion and the solidity
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of your experience. But it will always be a personal
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relation with whatever you know. In this episode, we are really
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going to be faced without reality because the three of us
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have very different relationships with this
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exhibition and with the artists. So it was really interesting to
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listen to John and you can also check his page.
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He has really interesting and very, very thought provoking sub
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stack page called and I am checking as I'm talking to you,
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everything the art world doesn't want you to know.
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Another thing I wanted to tell you is for you artists out
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there, particularly those who draw or whose practice is
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centered around drawing, there is a really interesting
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residency. So this is a shout out to Atuli
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de Zak, which is in France and have a call for applications at
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the moment for a drawing research residency.
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So this is really interesting because in most residencies you
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are there for three weeks, six weeks, you have to produce
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something. And so this particular residency
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is really interesting because it's a research residency, you
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do not have to produce anything. So the dates of the residency
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are from the 3rd to the 30th of September 2026.
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The deadline for applications is the 12th of December, midnight
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Central European time. But beware, the call is open to
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professional contemporary artists of all ages, but they
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have to be based or come from the Oxytani Pyrene Mediterranean
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region. So if you subscribe to the
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newsletter already, you will have a link for the application
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there if you want to go straight to the website.
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So it's atelier. So atelier as you spell atelier
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plural DES ARQUE s.com and you will have on the residences, I
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think the call for applications. It's the first text that you see
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when you click on it. We will be talking about Emily
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came nares work. It's at Tate Modern, curated by
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Kelly Cole and this is an exhibition that travelled from
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Australia from the National Gallery of Australia and that
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exhibition was curated by Kelly Cole, Waramungu and the Richer
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Peoples and Hetty Perkins Herente and Kalkadun Peoples.
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So the exhibition is open until the 11th of January. 1 of the
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things you can do is to watch the podcast instead of listening
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to it on Spotify. So Spotify has video.
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I always do a video episode that you can listen to so you don't
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have to watch it. You can just do the audio
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version. You can watch it on YouTube as
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well. And another thing you can do is
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subscribe to the newsletter, because usually I always post
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when particularly exhibitions Chinwag, I do a newsletter, but
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then I post another article only with images of the artist's work
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and with the little text accompanying it.
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So the last one was about Jenny Savile.
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So what I want to say about the work is that it is incredibly
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proliferous and it starts with these very dense layers and over
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layers of paintbrush dots. She had a very particular way of
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working, so she sat on the floor and she would hover over the
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canvas that wouldn't be stretched.
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So she would just work on the canvas almost as if she was
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working on a piece of fabric, a rectangular piece of fabric.
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But she was very precise about backgrounds.
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Sometimes she asked for the canvas to be prepared beforehand
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so that she could paint over it. And there are many, many
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variations of this very free use of the brush.
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There's a huge phase where there were these paintings with very
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sinuous lines. Then with sinuous lines were
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these sorts of under layers, with shapes that could be quite
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curved, where you could also see paw prints, animals, little
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lizards, the emus. So the animals that were
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important for her culture and that she communicated about.
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Then you have other works which are composite or groups of
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paintings on the wall, as as usual with her work, and they
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are quite atmospheric. So they associate these areas of
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different colors that are applied with quite a lot of
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freedom, as always. So there's a lot more that I
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could say and that I could describe, but so that, you know,
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there is this incredible freedom.
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It was always her hand. Her hand guided her, the song
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she had in her. The paintings were very much
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related to singing and to women ceremonies.
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So the way the body was painted, so the body lines were painted
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from shoulder to shoulder, these sort of curved lines that would
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accompany the breasts, for example, all of those in some
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ways find themselves on the paintings, but they are
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completely reinterpreted. So you're not going to find the
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same motifs applied to canvases or the canvases seen as bodies.
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Actually, when you think about it, there's lines, there's dots,
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there's these shapes of colors. So the variation wouldn't seem
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to bring as much variety and as much invention as it does.
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If it's not the color, it's the shape that's going to bring
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something new. So it's quite exciting,
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incredibly warm. And when it's not warm, it's
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very emotional. So there's something always very
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vibrant in the paintings. Some of them are more subdued,
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but even those ones which are more in terms of brown, they are
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so dense. There's a density, there's an
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energy that is contained or released in the paintings.
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It's a very, very peculiar exhibition to be experienced, to
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be in front of her work and to stay with it.
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It, it was really an intriguing and thought provoking and
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challenging in some ways experience to them.
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Think about the exhibition. Experiencing the exhibition was
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marvelous. And then of course, thinking
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about all the intricacies and the complexities of what it
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means to bring a culture onto the contemporary Art Museum.
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That's a whole other kind of worms, if I may say so myself.
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I hope wherever you are that you experience the exhibition
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vicariously through US and if you have the opportunity to come
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to London or to see Emily Kamena Rey's work in any other way, I
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hope you take that opportunity, seize it, because as far as I'm
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concerned, it is completely worthwhile.
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Now on with the episode. Thank you for sticking around
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and thank you for being a faithful listener and welcome if
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you are new here. Hello and welcome to Exhibition
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Chinwag, which is a segment that emulates the first season of the
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podcast, where Emily Harding and myself had really wonderful
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chats about solo exhibitions. And that's exactly what's going
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on today. And precisely with that person.
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Emily is back. It's so good to be back.
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I'm great. Thank you.
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It was, it was so nice to, you know, be back in the habit of
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seeing a big show like this. And this is like, since doing
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the podcast more regularly, I feel like there has been sort of
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a missing link in my life in terms of, you know, seeing art.
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So I've obviously seen bits and pieces here and there.
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But. But yeah, it was really lovely
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to go back and lovely to go with you, which we didn't normally do
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before. So shaking things up.
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That's it. We completely changed the rules
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because why visit exhibition separately?
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There's so much to say about art anyway.
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We it was a bit naive of me to think that we would exhaust the
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conversation right there and then.
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Exactly, exactly. You and me both.
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Do you know that this segment is called Exhibition Chinwag?
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And you were the one who introduced me to the word
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chinwag, ah? Right.
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Nice. Which still feels like something
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dirty and sexual to me, but OK, you know, something you would
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have to agree to with your partner, you know what I mean?
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I'm not. This word does not gel with me,
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but I find it so funny. Would it?
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Would it? Would it require a safe word?
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Something like that. That's my feeling.
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Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Good old chin, my good old
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ladder, as they say here. It's so good to have you back.
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So the exhibition we're going to talk about is Emily Kamay
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Naray's exhibition at Tate Modern.
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Naray is Aboriginal artist who passed away in 1996, so she is a
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20th century artist and we thought we could use a little
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bit of a perspective from down Under.
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So John McDonald and our critic from Australia, from Sydney is
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going to join us later because we felt that and you're going to
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understand why that we could use an input from someone who's over
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there. I think I wanted to also kind of
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give everyone who's listening a heads up.
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We are going to be very approximative with the
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philosophies behind the paintings because it's such a
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huge tradition. It's a different language and I
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think they did that really well in the exhibition where we are
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confronted with a lot of words that we don't know how to
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pronounce. And that was done on purpose.
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And it's a way of thinking and living the the land that we can
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only kind of try to approach. So I thought of looking at the
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map of Aboriginal Australia first, because I think that's
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one of the things that I looked for first, to kind of have a
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sense of how many peoples were there, how were the First
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Nations distributed? And so I put it in our document
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that can you see it? Yeah, yeah.
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So it is quite different than the Australia map that we were
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used to seeing. It is a phenomenal number of of
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different regions and areas that represent different peoples.
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And the way that it kind of cuts across the continent of
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Australia is, yeah, is very different than the way you'd
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normally see it. But also very representative of
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her work because she has lots of that section, that big sections
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that represent different pieces of land and, you know, kind of
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how different parts of the land join up to one another's.
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It felt a little bit resent, representative of of some of the
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work that she's doing. Yeah, I'm, I'm really astonished
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with the number of peoples. So it looks like a quilt with
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very small bits that kind of make up the whole fabric of it.
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And so you have an incredible number of peoples and you have
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all these little colors. It's very colorful.
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And you have all these names of communities that lived in
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specific areas of the whole continent.
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I was really taken by this map because I thought I don't know a
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single word in here. And just to situate you, so
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Emily Si Kame Naray is from the NT, but not the bit that goes up
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to Darwin and then the the coast.
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She's more from the inland. So the Sandover area of the NT
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specifically Alalkire in the Sandover area of the NT and she
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was born around 1910. We don't have a specific date.
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She then lived in a place called Utopia in the NT and she passed
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away in Alice Springs, which is probably the biggest city in
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that area, on the 3rd of September of 1996.
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But there's also something that is really important to her, and
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that's why I wanted to have a look at the map, is that she is
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also part of the Anmatiere Central Desert Region language
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group. One of the things that also
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defines a community is the language they speak.
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So this language goes across those different borders that you
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see in in that Aboriginal map of Australia.
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I clearly saw two very distinct narratives coming up.
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So let's let's take the the Tates that there's a video on
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the website in the presentation of the exhibition.
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There's a, you know, Tates that always does these short films.
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And so the Tate film starts with a voice.
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We presume it's Emily talking about her way of life.
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And so she says that they lived behind wind breaks.
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Sometimes in caves they would make shelters with grass many
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years ago. So you have these views of the
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landscape. So the landscape of the NT is
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very orange, very dry with it's the Bush.
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You know, it really is kind of very specific landscape.
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And this is in the olden times. So the idea of the olden times
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is presented and at 2nd 27, so this is a a 7.27 minute video,
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you know, pops up this archival footage and this voice, this
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television voice saying Naray's work has broken record prices.
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Her work has, and, I quote, become too costly for even big
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public galleries to acquire these days.
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Pyong Waare was around 80 years old when she first put brush to
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canvas. She moved.
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On an isolated central Australian community.
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This to enormous distinction while the world's major.
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Artists. Emily Norwari.
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So it's immediately the greatness 2.1 million he's
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thrown at you. Just like the highest amount of
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woman has ever been paid for a piece of art.
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Is that right? Something like that.
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Well, no, because in auction sales you're not paid.
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That's sales between owners of work.
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So if, if, if it had been through her gallery, then she
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would have seen the money. But if it's in an auction sale,
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then it's a sort of a, you know, it's the speculative side of the
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market. Another thing that is said quite
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quickly is that she started painting at age 80.
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So she became a full blown artist when most people are not
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only retired but also kind of, you know, leaving the space for
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the juniors, you know. Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah, they're not. They're not starting their
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passion projects typically at AD.
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My mom is turning AD in November.
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And who knows, I mean, maybe, maybe there's a painter in her
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that will blossom from this, but.
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I think she's going to stop making installations with old
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CD. ROMs. Or she could just kind of
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continue with her Tuesday card games and, you know, kind of her
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normal course of, you know, octogenarian life.
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So then you are. So the history then comes up,
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obviously. So the name Utopia, we're told,
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came from white settlers. It is quite a startling name, I
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thought. Wow.
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Yeah, it's very specific. It has a very resonant, kind of,
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it's a resonant word utopia. And I think especially for that
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area, you know, it's like, you know, as you were describing,
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like it's a desert. It's harsh, you know, you, you,
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you know, you're sleeping behind wind breaks and you know, you
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know, it's not an easy life as we would imagine an easy life.
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And utopia definitely chimes that, you know, that that
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meaning for us of like, oh, the easy life, It's beautiful.
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So I like, I like the juxtaposition of it.
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We learned that that juxtaposition, I think that's a
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great word, came from white settlers.
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So what happened is that Aboriginal community settled
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there to find work and ended up so this was a pastoral region.
00:23:00
So you had cattle stations that were established by white
00:23:06
settlers and the Aboriginal communities stayed there.
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It is said in the video for work and so we learned that Naray
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work there as a cattle. It is said also camel handler
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and. I saw that too, actually, yeah.
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Listen, we don't know, perhaps even minding the children of
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white families, we don't quite know, but it's kind of a
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hypothetical idea of what she may have done.
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And we also learned that she witnessed the fights for the
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aboriginal rights to the land. And then we move on to what was
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the really pivotal moment in Naray's life, which was to find
00:23:52
out about the batik technique with the groups, the group of
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women she was with as part of a women's education program.
00:24:01
And that kind of, as I was saying to Emily before we
00:24:04
started recording, there's a Portuguese expression.
00:24:06
I I have a flea behind my ear. Which?
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Means a sort of a nagging impression of.
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Bummer, you need to get some spray for that girl.
00:24:15
So that kind of, I thought, education program, what does
00:24:18
that mean and why we're in the middle of Utopia 1988, Naray did
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her first painting on canvas called MU Woman, which propelled
00:24:28
her into the art scene. That painting was it was seen,
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it was adored and that marked a period into painting for her
00:24:38
that allowed her to create for eight years.
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So she produced about 3000 works, more or less.
00:24:45
Yeah. Give or take, right?
00:24:47
Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, and that I just love the
00:24:51
fact that there was a women's education program because it's
00:24:54
like, you know, we were talking about before we started
00:24:57
recording kind of all of the differences that are taking
00:25:00
place in terms of the US and values around the Smithsonian
00:25:06
etcetera and part. Of the part of.
00:25:08
Yeah. Part of what's been cut though
00:25:11
is like USAID and kind of, you know, those kind of development
00:25:15
programs that would have had, you know, that would have
00:25:19
supported stuff like this. I mean, the British Council does
00:25:22
it here and, you know, you look at what came from one of those
00:25:26
programs. Not that the point of it is to
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have somebody like Emily who is artworks win lots and lots of
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money. That's not necessarily the point
00:25:35
of it. But but, you know, the fact that
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you know, it, it's generative of so much and so much of the batik
00:25:42
work in general, you know, has come through those programs.
00:25:45
And yeah, anyway. And aside to today's politics
00:25:50
and how it's how it's undermining the next Emily Noir.
00:25:55
And we have batik pieces in the exhibition.
00:25:58
Was quite extraordinary, yeah. It is said in the exhibition
00:26:03
that her works are centered around Ankara, the emu.
00:26:07
So emu woman or Iwelia, which is a body paints but also a term
00:26:14
that more or less means women's ceremony.
00:26:16
So this is the narrative, one way of looking at it, which is
00:26:21
that there's an ancestral way of life.
00:26:25
There's records breaking prices in auction sales.
00:26:30
There's this announcement of the greatest Australian artists who,
00:26:34
by the way, started painting at 80 years old and who by the way,
00:26:37
is a woman, which very uncommon things.
00:26:40
So a sort of a phenomenon that comes a bit ex nilo into the art
00:26:46
market and the, let's say, the art fields.
00:26:49
She worked as an animal handler, started with batik, and she was
00:26:53
inspired by body paint and is surrounded by a group of women,
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which to me is kind of what I gathered immediately when I went
00:27:02
into the exhibition. Of course, I was a bit shocked
00:27:06
with this idea that you could start an artistic career at 80,
00:27:10
although it's not the she's not the first one.
00:27:12
But as you were saying, exceptions exist, but that's not
00:27:15
obviously the rule. So for me, it is a narrative
00:27:20
that is a westernized cultural narrative, which is my culture.
00:27:23
You know, it's kind of the way I'm going to approach very
00:27:26
naturally. If I don't second guess myself,
00:27:29
I'm going to very naturally approach the narrative in this
00:27:33
way. So we learned that locally, her
00:27:37
work was discovered and minded by a few people.
00:27:41
Sorry, can I just just about that kind of looking at her
00:27:47
within a Western narrative, you wonder if aboriginal in
00:27:52
Aboriginal cultures, maybe they were like, well, of course, you
00:27:56
know, you do the most important things when you're old in life.
00:27:59
You know, I mean, you know, we're, you know, we're, I'm, I'm
00:28:03
totally unsurprised by my mom, you know, having her regular,
00:28:07
you know, coffee clutch in the morning and her card games and
00:28:10
things like that. That seems normal.
00:28:11
But maybe, you know, in that community, it's like, well, of
00:28:14
course, you manifest all of your wisdom and you manifest your
00:28:18
talents. And you know, it's not a it's
00:28:21
not a slow roll down the hill. It's like a slow roll up a hill.
00:28:27
And in a way, or I don't know, that's probably the wrong
00:28:30
analogy, but you know what I mean.
00:28:31
It's you wonder in your script, in your script for the for the
00:28:36
episode, you have those, you know, bullet points of ancestral
00:28:39
way of life and all the things that you just talked about
00:28:42
worked as a animal handler, started with fatigue.
00:28:44
The thing that really defines her work is that notion that she
00:28:51
is in and of the land that she is.
00:28:55
Even when she's making the works, she's sitting down on the
00:28:58
land and you get the sense that everything around her is being
00:29:03
infused into it. And, and that is so different
00:29:07
than aesthetics, which is the Western way of engaging with
00:29:12
things. And she has, you know, as I was,
00:29:15
as I was kind of reading about her and looking at things, you
00:29:20
know, it, it just struck me as like, can a, can a piece of art
00:29:23
be wise? And I think her art can be wise
00:29:27
because it's less about aesthetics.
00:29:31
And oh, I'm going to try it this way because I think the dots and
00:29:34
the lines look interesting and this but it's she is she is like
00:29:39
transmitting knowledge through her work.
00:29:43
She is this is a history book and a celebration.
00:29:47
And it is so much more than aesthetics.
00:29:51
I mean, you know, before I knew, I didn't know anything really
00:29:53
about her before the exhibition. And when you look at the
00:29:56
adverts, you know, you think Jackson Pollock like that's not.
00:30:00
And, you know, I mean, I think a lot of people who don't know her
00:30:04
might think, oh, this is sort of like, you know, abstraction,
00:30:07
what have you expression and and she's figurative.
00:30:15
You know, that's what the, you know, I don't think I, I went in
00:30:18
with a certain mindset thinking that it was going to be, you
00:30:22
know, wow, she's kind of like modern without having known
00:30:26
about the school and all of that kind of stuff.
00:30:29
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, there's a lot about,
00:30:33
there's a lot to say about the painting, right, in terms of our
00:30:36
own categories to talk about it and and we're getting there.
00:30:39
So just to finish with the this idea of the market.
00:30:43
So there's a market for Aboriginal art that starts kind
00:30:47
of coming up and becoming really established at the end of the
00:30:51
70s. And then from there on, Emily
00:30:54
came. Narre is not the only Aboriginal
00:30:57
artist in the market, but she's definitely the special 1.
00:31:01
So for example, collector and dealer Hank Ebbs in the YouTube
00:31:06
video says and describes her in those terms that I have just
00:31:11
laid down. So quote, she was a Stone Age
00:31:14
nomad. She'd never sat in a car before
00:31:17
she was 50. So that's kind of the vision he
00:31:21
has of her. And then he tells the story of
00:31:25
her grandson of hers that came to him because the grandson felt
00:31:30
that Aboriginal artists were being exploited and he wanted
00:31:35
someone trustworthy to take care of the work.
00:31:37
And so Ebes recognized obviously Naray's name, and he said, OK,
00:31:43
I'm going to look into this. He started dealing her work, but
00:31:47
also others and also collecting it.
00:31:50
So there's this established market and there's also this
00:31:54
idea that the family that I wanted to introduce as well,
00:31:58
that the family participates in this and we're going to see how
00:32:02
and, and why. So this is not a situation where
00:32:06
the white person comes, takes the work and then puts it in the
00:32:09
museum. It's, it's a more complex
00:32:12
situation. And you very rightly pointed out
00:32:15
to the women's program. And there's a lot to do with
00:32:18
that. There's a role that it it plays
00:32:20
in there. And so he also says, and I'm
00:32:22
quoting him, she's an artist with a pedigree of 40 years.
00:32:27
Yeah. So the idea of the pedigree and
00:32:31
the idea of the timelessness really brings home this notion
00:32:36
that Aboriginal peoples don't have a history.
00:32:39
They're static. And we have a progression, you
00:32:43
know, conversely, in not only in history, but also in
00:32:49
contemporary, modern, classic, etcetera, art terms.
00:32:54
And so he believes Eve's that and he says this in the video,
00:33:00
had she lived the 100 years before, she'd have done exactly
00:33:03
the same thing. So there's this idea that the
00:33:06
Aboriginal person carries this truth or this aesthetic and just
00:33:11
put it puts it out there. So this is really the Western
00:33:15
narrative that is kind of doubled by a praise, a sort of
00:33:20
praise for her modernity that is almost seen like a coincidence.
00:33:25
So we have met through a sort of preference historically.
00:33:31
And so the Art Gallery of NSW in 2022-2023 established or curated
00:33:40
this exhibition called Affinities of Lewitt's later
00:33:43
works. And when you look at them,
00:33:45
they're real squiggles and kind of undulating lines with very
00:33:50
different colors than what he started with in the beginning,
00:33:53
which was no color than primary colors.
00:33:56
And here there's a real mix of very unexpected colors for for
00:34:00
Lewitt. And then the exhibition is in
00:34:03
dialogue with a wall of Anne Matier.
00:34:07
So this language group, artists Nare and Gloria Tamerae Pitiare.
00:34:14
And so there is this idea that there's a modernism and a sort
00:34:18
of a dialogue going on in the work and in the same museum.
00:34:26
The way the artist is presented is, and I quote as a leading
00:34:31
figure in Eastern amateur ceremony.
00:34:35
So that already tells us something.
00:34:37
The ceremonial aspect is really important.
00:34:40
Naray was also the artist in whose work many white
00:34:44
Australians first felt the. Force.
00:34:47
Of an Indigenous art that could be seen to negotiate a space
00:34:52
both with the aesthetics of Western abstraction and the
00:34:55
timeless precepts of our Aboriginal cultural traditions.
00:34:59
And again, we have this idea of timelessness and this idea of a
00:35:06
resonance that is also a dialogue between both cultures.
00:35:11
And she's also presented as having a strong relation to
00:35:14
country. And thank you, Emily, because
00:35:15
you did say that earlier on and that is true.
00:35:20
And the way it is described is again in Western terms.
00:35:24
So in there's a the description of a work called untitled
00:35:29
allocate and maybe we'll get to the reason why it's called like
00:35:32
this later on from 1992. And the description is that it
00:35:37
has been quote, perceived as a lyrical mapping of country, a
00:35:41
poeticizing of the desert in bloom or simply as a spectacular
00:35:46
abstract painting, UN quote. And so in the Tate film, we also
00:35:51
talk about thin boundaries between the worlds of the
00:35:53
spiritual and the material in her work.
00:35:56
And her work is explained as the way these two elements were
00:36:00
planes interconnect or inter relate.
00:36:04
And you can see that really well in the first room of the
00:36:06
exhibition as you go in and you see the dotted paintings of the
00:36:11
beginning. So pre 90, I think where there's
00:36:16
this sort of really strange effects of like you say, pull up
00:36:23
from the far, but then you see it's just dots.
00:36:26
And then you have, we were talking about it when we visited
00:36:29
the exhibition, which there's layers and layers and layers of
00:36:33
dots, and at a certain point you feel like you're embedded in
00:36:37
them. I don't know if you did you have
00:36:39
that. Yeah, yeah.
00:36:40
No, I mean, it's, it's it, it felt both like being embedded in
00:36:46
it, like you can't see the wood through the trees, you know,
00:36:50
like you're really in something. But then also hovering above it
00:36:54
like when you kind of step back and look at some of the the
00:36:58
shapes. They're almost an integral part
00:37:02
of the dots, but at the same time they're they're also an
00:37:04
underlying layer and you have lizards and geckos and these
00:37:11
these little animals embedded in them.
00:37:13
Right. Yeah.
00:37:14
Yes. By the way, did you look up
00:37:16
emos? Have you seen that emos?
00:37:19
Do you know I haven't? They are the most adorable
00:37:23
things. So they're one of the biggest
00:37:25
birds in the world. Like they're the third biggest
00:37:28
bird in the world and they're flightless.
00:37:30
So I mean, and, and to me, like the notion of a flightless bird
00:37:34
is just so endearing. You know, it's like, we'll give
00:37:38
you wings, but they're not going to be good for the good stuff,
00:37:41
you know, so they, they're enormous.
00:37:43
They have these tiny little 6 inch wings that are basically
00:37:48
just there to cool themselves off and they heat and they, but
00:37:51
they have these really long legs and knees that are almost kind
00:37:54
of right by their hips. So they could run up to 30 miles
00:37:58
an hour and they they can, you know, they can, they can take
00:38:02
steps as big as like 9 feet in full stride.
00:38:05
But but and their little faces are so cute.
00:38:08
So I can see why she she she was enthralled.
00:38:13
I'm, I'm feeling yeah, Emily on that one.
00:38:17
Yeah. Well, yeah, it is a really
00:38:19
important but for her and there's we're going to see
00:38:24
there's different elements for her that are really important.
00:38:28
So another element of the exhibition, as soon as you get
00:38:31
into the second room, you see an image of country, which for us
00:38:37
is an image of the NT where. So the central parts of the NT
00:38:43
where Emily Kame Naree grew up and lived.
00:38:48
She moved a lot in that territory, by the way.
00:38:51
That's why there's a reference of her nomadic ways.
00:38:54
And some people do say that she moved quite a lot.
00:38:58
But as you say, there's this idea and this notion that
00:39:02
puzzled me a little bit, which was that very quickly it is
00:39:07
introduced to you and very well done, by the way, very well
00:39:10
explained that each painting is country and it is everything she
00:39:16
says. She said often this is
00:39:19
everything. And so we were talking about how
00:39:22
the paintings were the land and there is no dissociation between
00:39:26
country, land and dreaming. So the dreaming or country.
00:39:31
And they seem to, like you were saying, like you seem to be
00:39:34
hovering above the land. And so very usefully so you have
00:39:39
images pasted onto the wall, these very massive expanses,
00:39:44
photographic expanses of the land.
00:39:46
So you have a sort of a direct equivalence between the
00:39:50
paintings as expressions of that landscape.
00:39:55
But Emily Caminare, I'm pretty sure she never took a plane or a
00:40:00
helicopter. She's never seen it from above.
00:40:03
So it's so interesting to see what kind of mapping is this.
00:40:07
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I guess, I guess
00:40:09
from those high points she could have seen, you know, quite a bit
00:40:13
of the country, even if she hadn't been, you know, in a
00:40:15
plane or, you know, kind of above it in that sense.
00:40:19
I I think, you know, in her relationship to country, you
00:40:24
know, she's always looking down. She's not looking up, you know,
00:40:28
there's, there's no references to Sky that I can think of.
00:40:32
I saw some references to consolations and and looking
00:40:37
upwards in some text that I read, but that didn't come
00:40:41
across in the exhibition. Yeah.
00:40:43
But, I mean, and I thought that was interesting that, you know,
00:40:46
there, you know, there is a very distinct relationship with the
00:40:49
ground, with the underground, with the lay of the land.
00:40:53
She's a landscape painter in some respects, yeah.
00:40:56
Yeah, yeah, continue. Yeah, So absolutely.
00:41:02
That there's a does it? Yeah, that you are.
00:41:05
That's so true. There's a real kind of like
00:41:07
lowering of onto the ground on on in her paintings.
00:41:11
So when we got out, we picked up a few books and I bought this
00:41:15
book called Song Lines by Margot O'Neill and Lynn Kelly, The
00:41:20
Power and Promise. And Margot O'Neill actually
00:41:23
organized one of the first exhibitions of Emily Kamenare in
00:41:30
QLD. So she describes a little bits
00:41:34
what this Aboriginal set of beliefs and histories and
00:41:42
relationships to land. And so she starts by saying
00:41:47
everything starts. And so I'm quoting here.
00:41:50
Everything starts and ends with Country in the Aboriginal world
00:41:54
view, yet there are no endings in this worldview, nor are there
00:42:00
any beginnings. Time and place are infinite and
00:42:03
everywhere. Everything is part of a
00:42:06
continuum and endless flow of life and ideas emanating from
00:42:10
Country, which I'm referred to as the Dreaming.
00:42:14
In the Dreaming, as in Country, there is no separation between
00:42:19
the animate and inanimate. Everything is living people,
00:42:24
animals, plants, earth, water and air.
00:42:28
We speak of sea, land and sky. Country creator ancestors
00:42:33
created the country and its interface, the Dreaming.
00:42:37
In turn, Dreaming speaks for country which holds the law and
00:42:42
knowledge. Country has.
00:42:43
Dreaming Country is dreaming. It is this oneness of all things
00:42:49
that explains how and why Aboriginal knowledges belong to
00:42:53
an integrated system of learning.
00:42:55
And so later on, she says, Country holds.
00:42:58
So I'm quoting here again. Country holds information,
00:43:02
innovations, stories and secrets from medicine, engineering,
00:43:06
ecology and astronomy to show social Morris on how to live and
00:43:11
social organization including moiety, division and kinship
00:43:15
systems. It is the wellspring from which
00:43:18
all knowledge originates and gives rise to the expression our
00:43:21
history is written in the land. By history we mean all
00:43:26
knowledge, science, sciences, humanities, and ancestral
00:43:30
knowledge, not only what is compartmentalized as Western
00:43:33
history. If country holds all knowledge,
00:43:36
then country is clever. And then she goes on to say, as
00:43:42
our knowledge system encompasses a concept of time that talks of
00:43:45
the enduring, present and eternal time, the Western
00:43:48
divisions of past, present and future, or historical and
00:43:51
contemporary are not particularly relevant, though
00:43:55
they are useful at times. This recycling of time is
00:43:58
embodied in the expression when you look behind you, you see the
00:44:02
future in your footprints. And so here we have not really a
00:44:08
notion of timelessness, but a different relationship with the
00:44:13
very idea of history, this idea that everything comes from land,
00:44:17
everything comes from country, but not just the sort of
00:44:21
mystical relationship to country, but very specifically
00:44:24
technical relationships and answers for problem solving
00:44:29
basically like engineering and ecological systems and knowledge
00:44:33
of the country. So Lynn Kelly is really
00:44:36
interesting because she explains that she didn't know anything
00:44:40
about Aboriginal history. She complaints that at school
00:44:43
she was never taught Aboriginal history.
00:44:45
And the idea that she had was that there was no history and
00:44:48
there was no science. But when she finally had to
00:44:51
study a particular kind of crocodile, I think so she was
00:44:54
looking at an animal. She went to her colleagues,
00:44:57
tried to find out things about this species, and 10 or 12 were
00:45:04
known. And the only people who actually
00:45:06
knew 100 or more specimens and behaviours et cetera about the
00:45:12
animal were the Aboriginal people.
00:45:14
I mean, I think that's so, you know, looking at looking at the
00:45:18
work in the way that she worked, you know, again, that's sitting
00:45:24
on the ground doing the work. It has a real meditative
00:45:27
quality. You know, you get the sense that
00:45:29
she is someone who has been, even though she hasn't been
00:45:32
painting until she was 80 years old, She was she had this deep
00:45:36
observation that comes from actually really being in a
00:45:40
place, you know, when you are really in a place and you know
00:45:43
it intimately. You see the various varieties of
00:45:46
crocodiles, you know what I mean?
00:45:48
And that's just not, you know, again, to your point of, you
00:45:51
know, the the differences in approach and understanding and,
00:45:56
you know, defining what is, you know, there's that very lab
00:46:00
scientific, you know, go out and find approach and there's the
00:46:05
live observe embodied approach that she seems to have with the
00:46:12
work that she's done. And so one of the things that
00:46:15
you learn in this book, and that's why it's called song
00:46:17
lines, is that there's a very clear articulation between the
00:46:22
movement of making those sinuous lines, for example, and these
00:46:28
these lines are very close to the gestures of applying paint
00:46:32
for the ceremonies, for the women's ceremonies.
00:46:35
But there's also another aspect, which is the voice and the and
00:46:38
the song. And so country is also song and
00:46:41
those lines and those these paintings are also sunk.
00:46:45
And so sometimes, apparently, Emily came.
00:46:48
Narai was notoriously silent about the works and so she
00:46:53
didn't explain the work, but she would sometimes touch a painting
00:46:57
and and sing it. I saw that.
00:46:59
Yeah. That's so cool.
00:47:00
And she. Yeah.
00:47:01
So. So it was hard to get names of
00:47:04
any of the paintings out of her. So that that's apparently why so
00:47:07
many are called country is just because she would just, yes,
00:47:11
say, repeat that again and again.
00:47:12
Country is, is what it is. Country is everything.
00:47:15
Yeah. Although there were some great
00:47:16
names like Wild Potato. Potato.
00:47:19
Dreaming and there's like Bush potato dreaming and.
00:47:24
Yeah. We did have were pretty choice,
00:47:27
you know we. Had a moment there with the wild
00:47:29
potato dreaming. We just kind of stood there kind
00:47:33
of like, wow, that's gorgeous. So her role was to learn its
00:47:38
ancient history and all the physical characteristics as well
00:47:42
as responsibilities associated with maintaining the continuity
00:47:46
of the land. So for her, these paintings are
00:47:51
a transmission, and you use this word, and it's a very, very good
00:47:55
one because as we will see, there's really this relationship
00:48:00
with communication with another side of the country and other
00:48:07
people. So what we learn as well is that
00:48:15
her people were forced to work for pastoralists.
00:48:18
So she worked at Wood Green station looking after domestic
00:48:22
animals and also LED camel trains and even worked in the
00:48:26
mine, the Wolfram mine in return for Russians.
00:48:31
And so she was a ceremonial leader.
00:48:33
She was also active, I learn in this text, in the land rights
00:48:38
movement. And another question that I had
00:48:42
was why batik? What happened?
00:48:45
Why were there only women? Well, so to go back, So the
00:48:48
women's programs were built by someone who was there, who saw
00:48:54
women waiting for the children when they went to school.
00:48:56
So and she thought, why not try and do something with them?
00:49:01
And so they started by doing tie dye, which was kind of this
00:49:04
remnant of hippie culture. And the women took to these
00:49:07
things. The women took to this culture
00:49:10
and to these traditions because they had this practice, this
00:49:13
artistic practice for ages. So they had this knowledge of
00:49:16
mark making and line making and pattern making, and they loved
00:49:20
tie dye, but they loved batik even more, which is an
00:49:23
Indonesian technique. And I was kind of baffled.
00:49:27
Why Batik? Yeah, me too.
00:49:29
Yeah, and it's really difficult, but take, I mean, it is not, you
00:49:34
know, I didn't really realize that the process of it was so
00:49:38
involved. You know, I think it's
00:49:41
interesting that, you know, her batiks, Emily's batiks, a lot of
00:49:46
the same themes you can see obviously in the early paintings
00:49:49
in particular. But just like from an aging
00:49:52
perspective, it's like, you know, you can see her age
00:49:56
through her, through her work. It's like that really.
00:49:59
She did batik for 10 years before she started painting.
00:50:03
And that's, you know, you've got to stretch it across your legs
00:50:06
and then you've got to, you know, make the Marks and then
00:50:09
there's a whole process. Melted wax, exactly.
00:50:12
Yeah. So you have to build the fire?
00:50:14
Yeah, to melt the wax. And then, you know, she moves to
00:50:18
paint, and it's this really intensive process where you see
00:50:21
all these little dots and you know that that is, you know, not
00:50:25
easy either. It's like, you know, that's
00:50:27
reasonably laborious, less laborious than batik, but then
00:50:30
you see her kind of move from dots to more of the sinuous
00:50:34
lines of the, you know, of the yam roots or what have you.
00:50:38
And and I just love the fact that, you know, someone who is
00:50:42
that expert at batik could think, man, this is too hard for
00:50:46
me now I'm old and really kind of stick there, you know, and be
00:50:50
like, oh, I'm really going to grieve the fact that I can't do
00:50:52
batik anymore. But she just plowed on like this
00:50:55
woman just moved forward with such force.
00:50:59
I mean, she was obviously, as you said, 3000 paintings and
00:51:03
eight years plus probably, probably even more than.
00:51:07
But there is just no kind of hesitation.
00:51:09
And it was like, oh, well, I can't do this anymore.
00:51:11
Then I'll do this. Then I'll just push it to the
00:51:13
next thing and and see what works for me as a human being
00:51:17
where I am right now. And I found that really
00:51:20
inspiring as someone who just had their 50th birthday.
00:51:23
It's like. Yes, happy birthday, Emily.
00:51:26
Well, there's so in that story and then that real progression.
00:51:31
So there's an aspect that this text kind of sheds, sheds light
00:51:35
on, which is that all of these materials were brought to these
00:51:39
women. So there's a group of women.
00:51:41
First of all, this is communal. And the reason why the batik
00:51:44
started being made was that this was also a way for the group of
00:51:49
people, for this community to be sustainable.
00:51:52
So it was supposed to be marketed and sold and for them
00:51:55
to make money. And the way money was made was a
00:51:59
person, one of the artists would sell work and then the money
00:52:04
would arrive. It would be shown to everyone
00:52:06
and sheds amongst everyone. So Emily Caminare became this is
00:52:11
this artist who was a provider because Christopher Hodges, he
00:52:17
was he had a gallery, I think Utopian Art Gallery is called or
00:52:24
Utopia Art Gallery. But he was also an artist.
00:52:27
He explains that what was absolutely incredible is that
00:52:31
you would have this shop with, you know, a hodgepodge of
00:52:34
things. Then one of Emily Kame nares,
00:52:38
batiks and connoisseurs, non connoisseurs, people be drawn to
00:52:42
that batique. She really had a vibrant quality
00:52:47
to her work even and and we saw that in the exhibition in the
00:52:50
batique works. And so she started selling quite
00:52:54
a bit and she started being really, really successful.
00:52:58
And so she moved on to painting. One of the reasons is basically
00:53:02
what you were saying, she was tired, but she had stuff in her
00:53:05
she that had to come out somehow.
00:53:08
And so another thing much so that in 1992 she received an
00:53:13
Australian Arts Creative Fellowship, which is a huge
00:53:17
recognition of her work as someone who brought an enormous
00:53:22
contribution to the culture for Emily at the time. 1992 was I
00:53:28
had the creative fellowship, I was recognized.
00:53:31
I'm a senior now. I want to pass on my knowledge
00:53:35
to the youngsters. I'm I want to retire.
00:53:38
She was tired, but she couldn't do it because of the month of
00:53:41
the community and the family never made this possible because
00:53:45
she was the great provider. There's no notion of the
00:53:49
solitary genius time. For a short break to let you
00:53:54
into the exhibitionist, the studio, Look around you.
00:53:58
There is a computer, a good mic, the software in the computer,
00:54:04
which is a sort of virtual space through which you and I meet
00:54:10
with a time and space delay. Then there are my books and two
00:54:15
perfectly round Flintstones. All the magic happens here.
00:54:21
I've been talking to a university whose students need
00:54:24
placements and I could use some assistance with production and
00:54:29
research while also mentoring the future professionals of the
00:54:35
field. And that's where you come in.
00:54:38
Do you know how much a membership costs?
00:54:42
A mere £25 a year. Which means that you pay £2 a
00:54:48
month. 25 lbs for a whole year. When you buy a catalog, that's
00:54:56
the average price for one single book with two texts.
00:55:01
If you become a member of exhibition esters through a
00:55:04
platform called Sub Stack, you not only get to support
00:55:09
exhibition esters, but you also receive on average about 18 more
00:55:14
texts minimum that I will have written about many, many, many
00:55:20
fascinating topics of contemporary arts, philosophy of
00:55:24
art, and many other subjects. There's a little bonus that I
00:55:30
added, which is getting to ask me questions.
00:55:34
If you have a question about contemporary art, about the
00:55:37
field, about the market, about studies in contemporary art, I'm
00:55:42
very very happy to do the research for you or to dig into
00:55:47
my little well of knowledge and put the information out there
00:55:50
for you. I can name you or you can be
00:55:53
anonymous so you get to put me to work as long as the questions
00:55:59
and the prompts you give me are within my abilities.
00:56:04
Otherwise you can go to donor box in the description notes.
00:56:08
If you have 1 LB to spare, you can just donate one time.
00:56:13
It's very very small amounts. That's what I do with Wikipedia
00:56:17
once in a while. I put some money in there
00:56:20
because I use it almost daily and I want to reward people who
00:56:25
nourish me. Thank you for spending some time
00:56:28
with me here in my studio. Thank you for considering this
00:56:32
decent proposal. On with the episode.
00:56:36
We've never done this in exhibition esters to have
00:56:39
someone just popping in from down under and giving us a bit
00:56:43
of context, but it's my pleasure to welcome John McDonald to the
00:56:46
podcast. John is an art critic, has, I
00:56:50
want to say, 4 decades of art criticism in there.
00:56:55
Am I wrong in saying that? Unfortunately, you're absolutely
00:56:59
correct. It's sort of shocking how long
00:57:02
I've been doing, but it is about four decades now.
00:57:05
I've been writing about the visual arts now for about four
00:57:08
decades. I was art critic.
00:57:10
I was senior art critic for The Sydney Morning Herald at the age
00:57:12
of 23 and I'm now in my early 60s, so it's been a long time.
00:57:19
Most of that time I I wrote a weekly column for the Sydney
00:57:21
Morning Herald. I was actually cancelled last
00:57:24
year in rather, well, kind of shocking circumstances of the
00:57:30
way they did it in a very, very sort of nasty way, as if they
00:57:33
wanted me to just disappear off the planet.
00:57:36
But the problem really was not that I was doing anything wrong.
00:57:39
The problem was that I was doing my job and I was criticizing
00:57:43
things and I was taking things on and I was looking for issues.
00:57:46
I found that the last three years of writing everything, it
00:57:50
was getting messed around and when I found myself out on my
00:57:57
own, I started this website on Substack, which is called
00:58:01
Everything the Art World Doesn't Want You to Know, and it's taken
00:58:05
off like a rocket. So I can't really complain now.
00:58:08
I feel as though it's been all to the good.
00:58:10
So the Emily Show, which I, you know, I basically funded my own
00:58:13
trip to London to see the show and write about it, has led to
00:58:18
at least three pieces and one of the reasons I wanted to see this
00:58:22
show so badly and to write about it.
00:58:25
But I had seen all the other Emily shows.
00:58:28
I saw and wrote about the shows in 1998, in 2008 and the one
00:58:33
last year at the National Gallery in Canberra.
00:58:36
And at the time, I mean, I was critical of the show in
00:58:39
Canberra, not of the work itself, because I think that
00:58:42
Emily Karma and Waare is a, is a great artist at her very best,
00:58:47
you know, she's fantastic. But it was the curatorial aspect
00:58:50
of the show, the selection of works, the way it was done, and
00:58:54
the fact that, you know, an artist who really requires a
00:58:58
little bit of thought when you're putting an exhibition
00:59:00
like this together was done in a very pedestrian manner.
00:59:03
So I said all these things and I was quite explicit with the
00:59:06
criticisms even of the catalog, which had enormous clangers in
00:59:10
the catalog. Just to see whether or not the
00:59:12
Tate, when they did the show the following year, would follow the
00:59:16
NGA template or whether they would do something different,
00:59:19
whether they would at least correct the mistakes, Whether
00:59:22
they would think again about the selection of works.
00:59:26
Because this particular selection remarkably leaves out
00:59:30
Emily's biggest and something, her best work, which is Earth's
00:59:34
creation, The work shown in 2007 at the Venice Biennale by Aqui
00:59:39
en Wazoor Who? And it was a sensation for a lot
00:59:42
of people to see that big work all by itself in the Italian
00:59:45
pavilion. That's most people's
00:59:47
introduction to Emily. And weirdly, it wasn't in the
00:59:50
show. The other works which are not in
00:59:52
the show, which are absolute essentials, were the last work
00:59:56
she did, which were a group of small works that were about 24.
01:00:00
Most of them are still in with the hands of one dealer, and
01:00:04
they were omitted as well. Whereas the exhibition in 2008
01:00:09
in Osaka, which was everything in Osaka is a strange museum.
01:00:13
It's it's almost underground. On the top level, you walked in
01:00:17
and you were met with Earth's creation, one big whopping
01:00:20
padding, and all of the information you needed to know
01:00:25
about Emily, about the Utopia community, all of the
01:00:28
anthropological stuff, all of the things about the community.
01:00:31
Just giving you an introduction that so you had the knowledge to
01:00:34
take into that exhibition. Then when you went downstairs
01:00:37
and you entered the exhibition, the first thing you saw were all
01:00:41
of her last works and it was really quite stunning because
01:00:46
these works are very. Poignant.
01:00:48
Yeah. I read somewhere that the
01:00:49
curators of the show still keep an Emily Day as a sort of a
01:00:54
tradition because of the sensation that yet the
01:00:59
exhibition was and the and the audiences that it brought into
01:01:02
the museum. Oh, I thought it was like it was
01:01:05
like a typhoon. It hit them.
01:01:06
But the end result was spectacular and at the end of
01:01:09
the show they were all delighted with it.
01:01:12
And Margot Neal to do her justice also.
01:01:15
I didn't say that. Sorry my mouse.
01:01:18
It doesn't have any. I'm going to get my notes.
01:01:20
Margot Neal is. Wait, you're going to tell me if
01:01:24
that's correct? She's an Australian author,
01:01:27
historian and curator of Aboriginal and Irish descent and
01:01:31
a gum bane Giran era Judy woman. And her Aboriginal name is Ngawa
01:01:36
Gurawa. Is that so?
01:01:39
Can I ask you, because you, you talked about South, one of the
01:01:42
things that we struggle with a bit here is the culture, the
01:01:45
history, the, you know, the dreaming, the country land in
01:01:49
all of the history that is embedded in those paintings and
01:01:53
all of the knowledge that is Emily Kame Nare seems to have
01:01:57
wanted to pass on to everyone. Basically, there's there's a lot
01:02:02
of questions here in Europe about whether it's the right
01:02:05
thing to do to show her work. Is it not appropriating
01:02:09
aboriginal work? And what Kelly Cole and all the
01:02:12
other curators argue is that she knew very well where her
01:02:16
paintings were going. And this was her way to actually
01:02:19
communicate. Would you agree with that?
01:02:22
What's your what's your take on? And, and because she was
01:02:25
notoriously silent about the paintings themselves.
01:02:28
OK, that's fair enough. Emily, do you have any questions
01:02:31
for John? I mean, look, John, my role here
01:02:35
is the novice, OK? So I am not in the art world at
01:02:38
all. And so this might be a little
01:02:41
bit of a naive question, but you mentioned, you know, key pieces
01:02:46
that you felt were missing from the exhibition, the one from the
01:02:49
Venice B in LA, and these smaller works that you
01:02:51
referenced, Why? Why do you think they weren't
01:02:54
included? Do you think that was a choice
01:02:56
of the curator or were they just not able to get them?
01:03:00
Wait, sorry. The lane is the gallery that is
01:03:03
now associated with pace in the the the price.
01:03:07
Yeah, OK, Yeah. And so I'm going to have to cut
01:03:12
our conversation short unfortunately, because we don't
01:03:16
have a lot of time I want. So just one question, a very
01:03:19
quick answer. They're being discredited in the
01:03:21
sense that they're being kind of ignored and set aside or are
01:03:25
they being discredit at discredited as not being
01:03:28
original or or fakes or whatever?
01:03:33
I don't know what's the reason. It's totally ambiguous.
01:03:37
It's scuttled, but it's saying it's basically implying that
01:03:40
that certain dealers are not honest and not legitimate, that
01:03:45
the works are somehow doubtful. But this is simply not true.
01:03:50
I mean, there, there are a lot of works out there which are
01:03:53
perfectly valid Emily's that simply were disqualified from
01:03:57
being in the show. And you know, the Tait I believe
01:04:01
really should have done its own research and looked into these
01:04:04
things if they want to do a, a first class Emily show.
01:04:07
What they got instead was they just took everything the
01:04:10
National Gallery did and the Tate in fact gave virtually
01:04:13
nothing back. But when I was there on opening
01:04:15
night and I looked around and it was Kangaroo Valley and wall to
01:04:18
wall Australians, they were all white faces.
01:04:22
There was nobody from Utopia. And I think that is an
01:04:24
unforgivable omission, and it says a great deal about the
01:04:28
thinking behind this show, or rather the neglect behind this
01:04:31
show. Well, thank you so much, John.
01:04:35
This was really precious to have your perspective on things.
01:04:39
Yeah, thank you. That was great.
01:04:40
I was just saying I I think I got a little peek into the
01:04:43
underworld of Paul. Thank you, John.
01:04:44
Bye, bye. Thank.
01:04:45
You. Thank you, John.
01:04:47
Thank you. Bye.
01:04:48
Bye. How do you feel about all this?
01:04:50
I think for me it makes me think of outside the arts and you
01:04:54
know, art from people who are in with different abilities with
01:05:00
autistic and and many of the mental cognition differently
01:05:04
abled people and how you manage these collections and how you
01:05:09
manage the production of these artists.
01:05:11
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, it's like how you manage an artist is
01:05:15
outside of my field of expertise.
01:05:17
I couldn't, you know, I mean, all I can talk about is the
01:05:21
exhibition and how I felt about it.
01:05:23
To be perfectly honest, I was talking about how the exhibition
01:05:26
felt very flat. And I mean, to me, it was
01:05:30
phenomenally exciting. You know, it's like, this is my
01:05:33
first introduction into her and, you know, I knew nothing about
01:05:37
her before I went in. And I thought that, you know,
01:05:41
for me is someone with novice perspective going in and seeing
01:05:46
the, the trajectory of her development, you know, and, and
01:05:53
just how much she changed and was obviously trying new things.
01:05:57
I felt, I felt that throughout. I mean, I felt like there was a
01:06:01
propulsion through it. I mean, I think after you and I
01:06:04
saw that video, which was maybe halfway through, maybe a little
01:06:07
more than halfway. Through yes it is.
01:06:08
You know, and we went into the second to last room.
01:06:12
I, after we saw that video, I thought, Oh, well, I've probably
01:06:15
seen what she does. Like she only did anything for
01:06:20
eight years. She only did painting for eight
01:06:21
years. You know, I, we've probably seen
01:06:25
the thing that she does and this will be a continuation on from
01:06:28
that. And it was just like, you know,
01:06:32
you know, diving into a whole new pool.
01:06:34
So it was interesting to hear his perspective, obviously from
01:06:38
someone who has known the work for so long and has seen things
01:06:42
that I have not seen and experienced curation from
01:06:46
someone who had such an intimate relationship with the artist or
01:06:49
a much more intimate relationship at the very least.
01:06:53
But as he was talking about the flatness, I was just like, wow,
01:06:57
I, I did so didn't experience that.
01:07:01
That's, yeah, that's really true, I think.
01:07:04
I mean, I agree with parts of what you're saying.
01:07:07
I was really happy to see the exhibition.
01:07:12
And then as you move on to the other room, there's these kind
01:07:15
of atmospheric, almost textual and almost 3D impressions with
01:07:21
incredible arrays of colours that she asked for, didn't use,
01:07:26
then use others. According to Christopher Hodges
01:07:29
that John was mentioning, she, she knew exactly what she wanted
01:07:32
to do in the moment. And then you move on to the to
01:07:36
the room where it kind of it kind of becomes again like those
01:07:39
ramifications of white lines on black.
01:07:42
And I felt I showed you I had goosebumps.
01:07:45
In. Front of a lot of paintings.
01:07:47
So this doesn't this discourse doesn't take away the fact that
01:07:51
this is an incredible experience that you should not, you know,
01:07:57
prevent yourself from having in despite all the other politics
01:08:02
that are important. And where I disagree with you is
01:08:05
that that progression I find really sterile.
01:08:09
So in some ways I found the show really flattening things in this
01:08:13
chronological order and then reserving that impact at the end
01:08:19
where I think the works were so impactful all the way through
01:08:23
and it kind of created an artificial highlights that
01:08:27
really corresponds to a modernist idea of painting.
01:08:31
I think I what I would say is to spend time with the paintings
01:08:34
that talk to you and just stay there and just, I'm definitely
01:08:38
going to go back. And I'm, I'm going to go back.
01:08:40
I mean, you know, I mean, he was talking about the batiks and how
01:08:43
they were selling the the batiks from all the women who were
01:08:47
making them. And obviously hers had a real
01:08:50
presence that drew people in. And, you know, certainly with
01:08:53
their paintings as well. It's like, I mean, while there
01:08:56
there may be different decisions that could have been made or
01:09:00
different considerations made in the curation, it is still rooms
01:09:05
full of these, you know, incredible, incredible works
01:09:09
that I, yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm definitely going to go
01:09:13
again. And yeah, me too, You know, I
01:09:15
mean, and I've told Peter you have to go because he, because
01:09:20
he was like, well, you've already been, so maybe I won't
01:09:22
go. And I was like, you have to go
01:09:24
because I'm going again as well. So.
01:09:26
Yeah, So I, I, yeah, I, I loved it.
01:09:29
Yeah. Goosebumps.
01:09:31
Yeah, me too was really exceptional.
01:09:34
And there's another element as well, which you hear the voices
01:09:38
of the group of women singing the paintings as well at a
01:09:42
certain point in the exhibition, and that is also really magical.
01:09:45
It's not done in the best way I find, but the pleasure of
01:09:51
actually having the the opportunity to listen, even in
01:09:55
an artificial setting. I think you also have your own
01:09:58
critical sense, and I fight for this idea of you being empowered
01:10:03
by your own experience of the works.
01:10:05
And it was so nice going with you.
01:10:07
That was really nice. I loved that Wagamama and a tape
01:10:11
show with Joanna. I mean, that's a, that's a good
01:10:15
lineup. That's a very good lineup.
01:10:18
They grab a friend and go see a show.
01:10:20
In the fact Wagamala wants to sponsor us, we're here and we
01:10:24
can always try to find the nearest Wagamala.
01:10:26
Museums in London. I love the hustle.
01:10:28
Joanna, thank. You so much Emily, this was a
01:10:31
pleasure. As ever, thank you, Take good
01:10:34
care of yourself. Take care.
01:10:35
Bye bye everyone. Bye Bye exhibition.
01:10:38
This is an independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna
01:10:42
Pierre Nevers. We have episodes every two weeks
01:10:46
and this season, season 3, is a bit of a turning point.
01:10:49
We have 5 new episode types, from more experimental art
01:10:54
travel logs or art stories to conversational formats about
01:10:59
solo exhibitions with people who are not part of the industry.
01:11:04
Because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life.
01:11:09
If you're new here, you have a whole catalog of episodes to
01:11:14
enjoy this cover them at your own pace.