Soufiane Ababri

[00:00:00] Hello fellow Exhibitionistas, Emily here. So glad that you could join us this week. We're

[00:00:15] going to be looking at Moroccan artists Sufian, a barber, his new commission. Their

[00:00:19] mouth were full of bumblebees but it was me who was pollinated. It's a group of drawings

[00:00:25] that explore as questions, desire and crueerness and diaspora but impossibly the most innocent,

[00:00:33] joyful, wonderful, unexpected way. It was an exhibition that I'm not sure I expected to like it

[00:00:40] quite as much as I did. It's in a space in the barbiquin that was new to me that I'd never been

[00:00:46] too before that is really really quite special in New Unique. It featured a chain curtain of all things,

[00:00:55] but it was really wonderful and Joana and I had a great time talking about it. So I hope that you

[00:01:00] enjoy it too. Thanks so much for joining us.

[00:01:06] Hello welcome back to Exhibitionistas, for those of you who are new here on this podcast we talk

[00:01:12] about the thrills and the chills, the highs and the lows, the comedy and the drama of exhibitions,

[00:01:19] particularly contemporary art ones. We love going to shows and talking about them and the joy

[00:01:24] of that is a multiplied exponentially by having you here with us. My name is Emily Harding,

[00:01:31] I'm an art lover and an exhibition gore. And hello I am Joana PR Nevis, an independent writer,

[00:01:38] curator and artistic director of drawing now out there. So Emily this is our tense episode. Can

[00:01:45] you believe in? Oh my, monumental. So happy and it is the first time we'll be talking about

[00:01:52] an exhibition at the Barbiquin which is a brutalist historical building that we both love so much

[00:01:58] so I'm really really excited about this one. And also I want to say hi to our listeners in Japan,

[00:02:05] our listeners in South Africa, in Moldova, in Sweden. I mean you are listening to the podcast all over

[00:02:13] the world and it feels us with joy. It really feels us with joy so come with us today to the

[00:02:19] Barbiquin you're going to love it, you know stick around it's it's a good one that we have today.

[00:02:24] That's so cool hi guys. So before we get started Joana how was your weekend culture?

[00:02:32] Oh my oh my oh my um it was a good one it was a good one. I went to a concert this week

[00:02:40] believe it or not. So my husband and I went to see the kills live at Troxy which is at the concert hall

[00:02:49] in the East End and we it was everything we expected it to be and more than that it was incredible.

[00:02:58] This was really special because when I was your larger 12 years ago which is how we met and we

[00:03:03] became foster friends. God 12 years ago that is also kind of monumental.

[00:03:13] Can you believe it? 12 years ago yeah so I was on my own. So my husband and my kids were still in

[00:03:20] France and I stayed three months with you and thank the gods and the goddesses that it was with you

[00:03:25] that you really saved me at that time and the kills as well so both Joana and I were listening to

[00:03:30] the kills separately and it was kind of a way to be together you know but other than that the

[00:03:36] kills are just amazing we love them. I mean each song is a banger so we were so happy

[00:03:41] to go so you know they made me think of you and me because there's just two of them.

[00:03:49] It's incredible how we're doing but I have a bit of gossip for you. You tell.

[00:03:55] So when I wrote to my friend we have a WhatsApp group with another couple and I said let's

[00:04:02] say we're going to the kills concert and my friend said say hi to Damien.

[00:04:07] Who is Damien Lewis? The actor. Yeah so people will know him from home land the series

[00:04:15] American series billions outside of the UK but like he's a really really established actor

[00:04:20] who we find quite charming in handsome let's you know let's be very real about it. So my friend

[00:04:26] particularly really loves him and the thing is you know that he had this horrible tragedy in his life

[00:04:33] so his wife passed away Helen McCroy cancer was a really horrible thing he I think he even

[00:04:41] published a letter that she left him saying that he really needed to get a girlfriend but not in

[00:04:47] during her funeral like he had to be a she was incredible she was so funny it was like really an

[00:04:53] incredible story and a credible way to go I mean in the way he talked about it was incredible

[00:04:58] and I could only and when I saw you know Alice in most heart on stage it was really magical

[00:05:05] she was shy and at the same time engaged with us locked eyes with us and wave to a guy who was on his own

[00:05:12] in the you know in the first line they were just such good people you could see that they were

[00:05:18] just these empathetic beautiful people and I kept thinking oh I'm so happy that they're together

[00:05:24] because Damien Lewis is going out with her I don't keep thinking oh I can look at 100 year old granny

[00:05:31] basically just like oh it's so nice yes that's not too good for it.

[00:05:36] Happy ending for this story and as we were going out at the end of the concert I see kind

[00:05:46] of this really charming looking man I elbowed you and I'm like I think that's Damien Lewis

[00:05:52] and he was surrounded by three of four people in this amazing London respectful way of British

[00:05:59] respectful way of celebrities you can be a celebrity in this country no issues yeah just like

[00:06:05] staying apart from him just saying like oh we love you oh it's so nice to see you and it was like

[00:06:10] oh they're still together to you bro they're still together it's so amazing that it

[00:06:15] because she's a good person yeah and you go it's just like with the biggest smile just thinking

[00:06:22] about the concert like completely oblivious to my you know to my granny you know

[00:06:28] romance subplot going on and he was like I love this song yeah it was just like still

[00:06:37] buzzing from the concert and I wrote to my friend Amanda believe her or not we did see Damien

[00:06:43] because I lunch with her and she was like you didn't take a picture with him which I would never

[00:06:48] never rather die I know me then you go do it you know and and you goes like I wanted to do it

[00:06:54] like really like digging a hole for me and pushing me into it and I was like why didn't you

[00:07:00] you could have just taken the picture with him I cannot do that no that person I know me either

[00:07:06] I mean I get how much celebrities I get the urge you know I mean so the kinds of celebrities

[00:07:12] that we have through my work yeah the little rock and roll we had banking moon on Friday you know

[00:07:21] Theresa May came through you know it's a little bit different I have to say I did get really

[00:07:27] scarth drug when just and the ardor and came to work I mean yeah exactly yes she is oh she is

[00:07:37] yes she everything you wanted to be she was yeah and I did an online event that Hillary Clinton

[00:07:46] contributed to and look I can't help it I love her you know it's like I grew up I'm a woman of

[00:07:52] a certain age who grew up in the states you know and my dad it is like as I was sort of becoming

[00:08:00] more politically aware and I could see how much my dad hated her that only stoked my fire of love

[00:08:08] and I get it's like rattle I know right yeah exactly yeah um and I get you know like there's lots

[00:08:16] of you know shortcomings there so how was your weakened culture after I just geeked out completely

[00:08:24] I'm gonna say that my weakened culture was not as good as yours Joanna I think we move in this

[00:08:30] weakened culture because once you take it then Netflix watching Ripley um so this is a this is

[00:08:40] a new take on the talented mr Ripley and I mean it's great but it's I mean it's kind of a mixbag

[00:08:45] there's so much should be said for it the acting is tremendous Andrew Scott in particular who plays

[00:08:51] tomorrhfully you know he is just holding so much in his face in the absence of dialogue which

[00:09:00] I think is a supreme challenge as an actor and I mean it's stunning to look at it's in black and

[00:09:06] white it's in Italy in the 50s I mean everything is absolutely just oozing with gorgeousness it's

[00:09:13] you know almost intolerable it's like every putting it yeah but it's like every frame is this black and

[00:09:20] white gem you know it holds attention which is good because I mean look this is not a new story right

[00:09:27] Patricia Heiss method the book The Talented Mr Ripley in 95 yeah um the downside is the characters

[00:09:34] so so the book is about people just left university so in the talented Mr Ripley movie of

[00:09:42] 1999 with Winith Paltro and Matt Damon and Jude Law and Philipsy more Hoffman's in that movie

[00:09:49] they're all roughly as a mage you know and they're young they're all sort of young and in this

[00:09:55] movie or in this version of it which is a series Andrew Scott who is 48 you know and then you have

[00:10:04] Dakota Fanning who's 30 and then you have the person who plays Freddie the Philipsy more Hoffman

[00:10:12] character Elliot Sumner yeah William actor sting is their father which was a little bit of

[00:10:19] a nice high boy yeah yeah but they're only 33 years old it just it just was like what is going on here

[00:10:27] I mean they set out to say that it's sort of that you know Dickie Greenleaf has been in Italy for

[00:10:36] 10 years to try to make it like he's in his early 30s I don't know the magic of movies can only

[00:10:43] go so far the thing the thing about the beauty is that it started to get in the way of the story

[00:10:48] you know you could tell that the song of the horror was just like oh let's just get a few more shots of statues

[00:10:55] oh isn't this archipelago brilliant and let's let's go a few more of those and there there's this

[00:11:00] cat that shows up at a certain point and Peter was like if I just see that fucking cat one more

[00:11:06] time you know it's like you know it's like that in a certain light and in the window and it's like

[00:11:12] in the beginning you're like oh that's cute and then you're just like again why what is this

[00:11:18] what is this doing for the story it just ended up being slept in the rope of the story rather than

[00:11:23] the story which is you know yeah yeah I mean you know it's good I mean I think the book is really

[00:11:30] the book is great you know I mean it's a perfect book it's like it holds this tension

[00:11:36] it has these characters that you love to load you know and you kind of have you want to know more about

[00:11:44] but you're repelled by them at the same time and I think that the series gets that with the

[00:11:50] characters it's just you know I think that some of the casting was maybe not as good as it

[00:11:57] make them all around 48 you know just make it consistent you know I mean I think you're a bit more

[00:12:04] persistence than I am because I watched I think one or two episodes of it and I found it

[00:12:11] intensely aggressively boring I really could not endure it wasn't that's beforeing

[00:12:19] it was aggressively boring yeah honestly yeah it's pandering it's like they were trying they were trying to

[00:12:27] test you anyway so who are we talking about this weekend really yeah so this week we'll be

[00:12:35] talking about Stufian Ababra's exhibition their mouths were full of bumblebees but it was me who was

[00:12:43] pollinated it's an exhibition at the curve at the barbeque I have to say I'm so keen to know what you're

[00:12:50] going to say about this Joanna because there were a couple things in there that I just thought oh

[00:12:55] that is so up Joanna right so I mean you know well we'll we'll get there definitely

[00:13:02] you know me very very well was all over it yeah love that yep um so i don't think you who haven't been

[00:13:10] to the barbeque it's an enormous art complex in London it's you know as one of it is brutalist architecture

[00:13:18] that that you know has a real presence in in London and the curve is a really unique space within

[00:13:26] it I've actually not been to the curve before so that was quite cool we need to go there for the first time

[00:13:33] so we'll get there in a bit more about the exhibition in this space but for now let's meet Sufian

[00:13:40] and I feel like I can say just Sufian because when I was going to the barbeque I and 99% sure I saw

[00:13:49] him on the sidewalk walking away from the barbeque and it's not walking towards it so much though that

[00:13:54] when I got to the exhibition there was a guy you know kind of sitting on the outside of the door

[00:14:00] way to the curve and I was like we're still fianna barbeque just a barber just here I'm pretty sure

[00:14:05] I just saw him it's like joking yeah and he was like I don't know maybe you know maybe he was here

[00:14:13] I don't know so it could not be so celebrity sighting episode for sure it was my one of

[00:14:19] that terrible moments because you know I've been looking at interviews of him and videos of him so

[00:14:24] like the his face had been in my mind and but then when I saw this person on the street it just

[00:14:32] didn't the gears did not jump into action as quickly as I wanted to at one until sort of after

[00:14:40] he was a fair bit away that I was like I think that was Sufian about right you know but anyway so

[00:14:46] Sufian above nothing to regret because you wouldn't out of taken a selfie with him so that was

[00:14:52] the fight of course of course so Sufian above me was born in 1985 in Morocco he lives and works

[00:15:01] between Paris and 10gear he explores themes of queerness and diaspora his work encompasses drawing

[00:15:09] performance and installation so all of those things are demonstrated in this exhibition as well

[00:15:17] and on the 30th of June they will do there will be a performance at the at the cuff I'd love to see it

[00:15:26] yeah me too I bet it would not mind blowing I mean I'm trying to go yeah yeah I should put that in my calendar

[00:15:34] so I was thinking about you know as I've been researching Sufian thinking about words that come

[00:15:42] to mind and I don't know if this is exactly the right fit but revolutionary comes to mind like he

[00:15:49] feels like someone who is he's not someone who is describing problems he is offering an antidote

[00:16:00] to those problems so I mean sometimes you get people who you know in their art or saying you know

[00:16:07] maybe even aridine but you know is you know in her film is is describing structures and you know

[00:16:15] how those lay across society and blackness etc not to say that there's anything wrong with that I mean

[00:16:22] that's a really really important place for human knowledge to be able to articulate and describe

[00:16:29] problems but what I have seen in his work is that he is offering you know an alternative you

[00:16:41] know in a reality that lives alongside sort of the status quo or the norm if you like that challenge

[00:16:49] is that but doesn't necessarily go into describing it and why it's there I mean he's he's interested

[00:16:56] and you know immigrants homosexuals brown skin people the post-colonial generation these are all

[00:17:03] the ways that he describes himself and so he wants to you know kind of put art together that that

[00:17:11] that I mean I wouldn't even say celebrates I mean I don't think he's he's trying to celebrate

[00:17:18] even I think he's just trying to say here is a reality here it is you know and yeah you know

[00:17:26] I'm gonna allow you to take a very direct look at things that you know you that you know you

[00:17:33] wouldn't normally have a look at and he's not you know he's not trying to sort of rank it

[00:17:40] or you know put a patina of celebration or praise over it it's just here it is here's what it is

[00:17:48] and it kind of made me think of the TV show shitscrake which we love of course and how there

[00:17:55] was no homophobia in that show you know so in that they weren't trying to say here's the struggles

[00:18:03] of a gay person and here's what happens when a gay person comes out and you know they tell

[00:18:08] their family and the reactions of others none of that is discussed in shitscrake it's just

[00:18:15] gay people are a part of life and it's accepted and here's how they operate in the world and

[00:18:21] it just it shows you a depiction of a way of life without homophobia and I feel like in it

[00:18:30] in a similar way this is what a barbarian a barbarian is doing and his work which the more I

[00:18:38] the more I kind of found out about him and what he's doing I just found that really admirable

[00:18:45] but that's not the only way that he is revolutionary I mean he is revolutionary in how he works so

[00:18:54] he's not saying okay here's the way that artworks here's all the things that I learned at art

[00:19:00] school and I am going to try to reform this from the inside he's not doing that he's not a reformer

[00:19:07] he's saying basically fuck that noise I am going to do something different and you know I saw this

[00:19:16] interview with him from five years ago and this was for his exhibition making of music here is a

[00:19:25] strange and bitter crop it was a show at space so he said that I'm going to make a conscious decision

[00:19:32] to stop what I was doing before and make a break with what I learned in art school and from the

[00:19:37] normative and stereotypical French education system so he was born in Morocco but he moved to

[00:19:44] France when he was 18 and that's where drawing has no important place and is even marginalized so

[00:19:50] he goes to drawing because it is the antitacist of sort of the high art that is you know praised

[00:20:00] in art school and he also does this thing where he he he he does his drawing in bed he has this whole

[00:20:09] section of works that are called bed works so his idea is is that in you know a lot of you know

[00:20:17] the great works of art you see the muse as being extraordinarily passive you know lying down somewhere

[00:20:24] a naked woman on a sofa or black and brown people that might be just sort of lounging around or what

[00:20:31] have you and he specifically draws lying down because even that is the antithesis to how you're told

[00:20:40] you're supposed to do it I mean even if you were doing drawing quote unquote correctly you might be

[00:20:46] at a draft table or something like that but he he does it from from a reclined position

[00:20:53] but yeah so that was I mean this whole drawing thing I imagine you know and really really

[00:20:59] focusing on that I imagine that was music to your ears yes yes I mean he was born in 85 so of course

[00:21:07] back in the day when he went to France I mean he speaks French fluently it's a probably second

[00:21:14] language because Morocco was a French protectorate for a long long time until the 50s and of course

[00:21:21] French is still a very strong language there and that's kind of the already this condition of the

[00:21:27] colonized country and the colonized country through the language is very strong in Moroccan

[00:21:33] artists and writers and even filmmakers and when you hear him speak does I also kind of listen

[00:21:41] to a video of his I mean a French pure French so you know there's already that kind of the

[00:21:48] cotomy in in the identity already and then you are drawing to it which of course when he studied

[00:21:55] back in the day drawing was not recognized you know really I think that has changed within academia

[00:22:01] in France I have to say that because now there is a chair dedicated to drawing to drawing in an

[00:22:08] expanded sense so sometimes you know my colleague Barbara has why he was the director of that chair

[00:22:15] and she did an amazing job she you know contacted artists who were working with drawing but also how

[00:22:21] drawing connected to say for example motion capture the vices so she invited Michel Paison

[00:22:29] for example to speak he's working with investigation in neurology in the neurology department

[00:22:36] and he's drawing with his eyes through motion capture the vices and so you know there's lots of

[00:22:43] things being done at the moment in France but again to your point they are kind of embedded in academia

[00:22:50] as research or as being very topical things like say a vatrine maker or you know not not the

[00:22:57] train of it high I have the word in French um tainted glass art all of those things that those

[00:23:03] people she invited of course kind of are embedded in a certain tradition and I agree that drawing

[00:23:10] is still kind of we're trying for it not to be but the recognition of drawing is so recent it

[00:23:16] started in the sixties through conceptual arts a lot so conceptual arts picked up photography and

[00:23:23] drawing as those two mediums and not genres anymore but mediums so from the idea of media

[00:23:31] as the two art languages that weren't hated tainted by tradition and that weren't bourgeois

[00:23:38] so drawing kind of suddenly came to the forefront of artistic languages because it was

[00:23:46] and carrying that tradition so in some ways sufiana barbry is connecting to that political

[00:23:53] gesture but with a completely different style so his style of drawing is the very skilled

[00:24:00] unskilled drawing that I love of which we will be talking about later on but I just wanted to say

[00:24:08] to corroborate with you just said the first drawing that you see in the exhibition is a scene

[00:24:16] so the drawings are very colorful and they are very laboriously made like a child would make

[00:24:25] drawings so their kind of everything is you know colored in and the shapes are very

[00:24:30] approximative but super expressive and so you see a billy or table and someone with with the black

[00:24:39] ball trying to hit it like the final ball that you they you kind of hit in a billy or table or

[00:24:45] a snuka table and there's a hole where the ball is going and you can see that he's going to hit

[00:24:51] it and he's going to he's going to probably you know get it right and then there's a sentence saying

[00:24:57] working on changing the rules so that's the first drawing that you see which I found really

[00:25:03] really interesting and kind of says what you know it does what you're saying which is I am not here

[00:25:10] to complain I am here to show you a reality and through this sharing of experiences maybe

[00:25:18] will change the rules together that's beautiful yeah you know waves starting an exhibition

[00:25:24] yeah because the cue ball he's with his cue he is hitting the black ball to the cue ball so

[00:25:31] obviously it's the opposite way round she's good yeah but I have to say just to back up to

[00:25:39] working in bed what could idea what a good idea I made it made me think like we should have like

[00:25:47] we should have like a bed for sleeping and a bed for working somewhere I mean I went to Monticello

[00:25:55] so the home of Thomas Jefferson years ago when it lived in DC and he had this he had this

[00:26:01] setup in his bedroom where it was like the bed was in the middle and it was essentially like if

[00:26:09] you imagine a wall between two rooms imagine a break in that wall for a bed so you're almost

[00:26:16] I mean from how I remember it it's almost like the bed is what connects the two rooms and on one side

[00:26:22] is you know a desk where he can do his writing and that kind of thing and on the other side

[00:26:32] is sort of a reading room I remember like books in a chair and things like that so it was

[00:26:38] elevating I mean yeah yeah exactly I was like genius this is genius you know and I mean obviously

[00:26:47] he's gonna have you know a slave you know as a slave holder bring him coffee and things like that to

[00:26:54] his room so a very unsultery you know terrible underbelly to all this but but this setup the hermit

[00:27:04] me completely romanticized the idea how much you know oh my oh my oh my I know a few

[00:27:12] artists who have beds in their studios and I had a sofa bed in my studio before in my office

[00:27:19] before that was exactly for that because at a certain point you need to sleep in order for the

[00:27:25] words to set in and to settle in your mind that's when I reconnected with sleeping I've reconnected

[00:27:33] with sleeping very recently and I acted upon it I was like yes I need to have a set of bed and it

[00:27:39] was really really amazing I didn't use it as often as thought it was always running behind

[00:27:46] some deadline but it that's kind of incredible and also you know to connect with Sufian

[00:27:52] a barbery the thing that he talks about is that in you know you mentioned the slave you would have

[00:28:00] been serving Thomas Jefferson in the 19th century in France there was a bit of an aestheticization

[00:28:07] of Arab bodies and and black and brown bodies in general and they were often represented in painting

[00:28:18] lying down and there's this connection with the idea of being lazy because of course you know

[00:28:26] Europeans always think that you know other cultures are lazy and so for him working lying down

[00:28:32] is also this thing of well yes I am taking up that stance and I'm making work with it and I'm also

[00:28:42] making work that is drawing in a child like mana that is supposed to bring in another subject which

[00:28:50] is that so the exhibition has a lot of drawings that depict nightlife that depict this kind of

[00:28:58] setting in clubs where you dance and when sometimes you kind of like cruise so I'm going to

[00:29:07] make a reference here to the second time we talk about Sarah Marshall's podcast you're wrong about

[00:29:14] she has an amazing episode at the moment going on I think it's part two with Marcus Mackan

[00:29:23] about George Michael yes I've heard yes episode I haven't heard the second one yeah yeah

[00:29:30] it just came out and so you're wrong about is usually about maligned people

[00:29:36] and trying to understand their side of the story so she's fascinated with Tony Harding

[00:29:42] Britney Spears all of those people there's another one about Britney Spears that's quite interesting

[00:29:48] and so George Michael's the second episode is really interesting because Marcus Mackan

[00:29:54] talks about cruising and he talks about cruising in the really interesting way which is

[00:30:01] he talks about what cruising is which is basically just going to outdoor spaces where you know

[00:30:07] you can meet people and you can have sex in public spaces but not like in public like not

[00:30:13] you know in the wild in public bathrooms you know in hiding spaces but meeting publicly

[00:30:21] and so there's a whole vocabulary to it there's a whole ritual to it so you first lock

[00:30:26] guys with someone blah blah blah and so because George Michael was infamously

[00:30:33] cruising basically or in the bathroom with another guy by the police and was

[00:30:39] arrested and it was a whole thing you know it was forced to come out because of that

[00:30:45] and Marcus Mackan says something really interesting which is that at the time

[00:30:49] cruising and in general being homosexual had this thing attached to it which was think of the children

[00:30:57] you know oh yeah what about the children what about the children yeah clutch what about girls and yeah exactly

[00:31:05] clutching your pearls and thinking which is still the language now we used with transport people

[00:31:11] which is they're trying to pervert our children they're perverted beings and cruising is

[00:31:18] horrible because they're exposing themselves and there's a study that was made according to Marcus Mackan

[00:31:24] which was horrible basically they placed the police placed cameras in those bathrooms

[00:31:30] to see what the behavior was and the behavior was really that's a violation right surely I mean

[00:31:36] that's un- Yes you can't do that it's you can't do that this was in the 80s and it was just

[00:31:42] shameful but it was interesting because the result was that you know men two three men whatever

[00:31:51] would be having sex in the public bathroom and as soon as you could hear a creek of a door opening

[00:31:57] they would run away and hide or dress themselves so this just showed that no one was exposing

[00:32:03] themselves they were not keen on being found out and so no children were harmed in the making of

[00:32:09] this sexual pleasure of cruising whatsoever the ideas that they were not wanting anyone to kind of

[00:32:17] be in there and see them it's like it's like we're also they're gonna meet people I mean gay clubs are

[00:32:25] being closed by police because you know it's like there's right that yeah and I mean it was pre-

[00:32:32] internet so you're not gonna meet people online it's like yeah if you if you make it so that

[00:32:38] there's absolutely no other way for people to connect for gay people to connect of course

[00:32:44] they're gonna find a way and that was that was it I mean and that was it yeah and there was nothing

[00:32:50] wrong with it and like Marcus McKens says it's not just the gay thing come on you know there's cruising

[00:32:56] in heterosexual in the heterosexual worlds and there's a lot of ways of having sex and it

[00:33:02] concerns no one and it suddenly does not concern the children and Sufianne Barbury says that for

[00:33:08] him drawing like a child is also a way of bringing some innocence into this realm of this world that

[00:33:18] he's his world basically and his identity which is his identity not only as a gay man but also

[00:33:26] as a non-white man also as an Arab man a hairy man there's a lot of hair in the in the drawings

[00:33:33] that is so beautiful because it reads the gesture of drawing you know hair just black rafide or black

[00:33:43] colored pencils it's just beautiful and he says you know and also some gay people there are

[00:33:50] depicted there all of them which children at some point right and it was difficult being a gay child

[00:33:55] in Morocco it's even difficult here to be honest because he doesn't separate I mean he does separate

[00:34:02] the specific context in Morocco there's a drawing called Lombus Cadd which means the ambush

[00:34:11] where you see people crawling and the performance is also that people crawling in the space

[00:34:16] they're crawling outside a nightclub and you can see the police coming in and you also have a trans person

[00:34:23] so someone who has you know male genitalia and breasts there's a whole community in the drawings

[00:34:32] but like you say it's very ambivalent you don't really know what's going on and it's there's this

[00:34:37] innocence of pleasure and of being together and togetherness and I think one of my favorite

[00:34:43] works are really the bedworks where it's a very long long long drawing yeah I can tell you exactly

[00:34:50] the length of the drawing oh they don't have the measurements in the in their captions

[00:34:56] well that's too bad but they're kind of like 80 90 centimeters long and very in and like 40

[00:35:03] 50 centimeters high and this just these bodies these elongated bodies there's one on top of the other

[00:35:11] which are kind of incredible so there really is this idea of bringing a certain kind of drawing

[00:35:19] to a space like the barbican yeah I just I mean knowing that he is

[00:35:26] bringing that innocence to the subject matter and you know that that kind of child like

[00:35:33] ness that just makes my affection for the works grow so much I mean this is the reason why

[00:35:40] knowing this kind of stuff is so important because like you could easily go in there and be like

[00:35:45] you know colored drawings of you know naked men together like what is this about for me and it's

[00:35:53] like when you know like what he is trying to create and what's coming across both and

[00:35:59] you know what he is depicting how he is depicting it even how he's working you know you know

[00:36:06] kind of the bedworks etc it just makes it so powerful so maybe I should try and describe

[00:36:16] the exhibition because I've seen this very strange review and time out saying that

[00:36:23] he didn't know what to do with the space I saw that too I saw that before I went and so I was very curious

[00:36:31] but it's I would disagree with that reviewer absolutely but it is a vibe like there's a real

[00:36:39] vibe the second you get into the space so yeah so it's absolutely it's you know it's it's

[00:36:48] called the curve for a reason it's a curve of the building and when you go in it's the the mood

[00:36:56] is dark like everything is you know kind of low light everywhere and when you walk in there is

[00:37:04] the most incredible like hanging curtain of chains and that also creates a curve so it's only

[00:37:14] kind of right at the beginning and then there's another hanging curtain of chains at the end

[00:37:21] that kind of almost make parentheses if you were looking from above around the around the

[00:37:29] exhibition and I loved them so much oh my gosh the the touching that I honestly I could have spent

[00:37:37] so much time just like with it was a super sensual yeah tactile sensual and dangerous at the same

[00:37:45] time because the chains are not big enough to be changed that chain you right you know that kind of

[00:37:52] are used to prevent movement so they could be chains used in SNM or chains just used for

[00:37:59] necklaces and but they're quite thick they're too thick to be a necklace for example

[00:38:04] so they're kind of ambivalent and the thing with the curve and that's why I was so shocked

[00:38:10] with the review was like this dude did not read the text because when he arrived to Fiona Barbary

[00:38:17] to the space he saw that the space had the same shape as the letter Zane in Arabic and the letter Zane

[00:38:28] is the beginning of the work so it's the sound and so it's the the and that's why the title

[00:38:36] talks about bees who buzz and do the sound so Zee for him is representative of a slur which is

[00:38:47] a zamil which is what you know the F word would mean in I don't like to say it you know the

[00:38:54] F I get word means in Arabic and so when you want to insult gay men you just do the sound

[00:39:05] you don't need to say the whole word so the Zane letter for him is very expressive in the sense that

[00:39:13] it makes him think of that slur so the curtains are also shaped like the curve and so they kind

[00:39:20] of reiterate that's letter but the interesting thing is that zamil actually in the beginning

[00:39:26] meant a strong friendship between a men so what he's saying and that's why you're so right in saying

[00:39:34] that he's not denouncing he really is kind of showing how you can be friendly with another man

[00:39:43] so this what he says is that the homophobia even prevents men from being close together and

[00:39:51] from having a beautiful straight friendship or a platonic friendship and it really prevents men

[00:39:57] from coming together and and sharing experiences and in a lot of the drawings it's never the

[00:40:06] sexual act it's always before or after and some of them are even just tender moments between men

[00:40:13] totally yeah I loved the way that he he used the physical space to reinforce you know that message

[00:40:22] and everything is built from from that which is yeah really powerful I mean I have to say it's I mean

[00:40:29] not spent much time in Morocco but you know in Palestine I remember when I very first got there in 2005

[00:40:40] and seeing young men in Jerusalem holding hands or walking down the street you know armenarum

[00:40:49] and you know as a western person that reads as gay men you know I mean and I I was with my friend

[00:40:58] and I was like yeah did you expect that you know and she was like that yeah I mean if you

[00:41:04] were in the open society yeah I was like wow are they kind of and you know it was you know

[00:41:10] she she made it clear it's like you know if you asked any Palestinian they said if they would say

[00:41:17] there is no homosexuals in Palestine I mean that would be the understanding yeah of course but it's

[00:41:24] but there's more room for heterosexual men to have close physical contact in my experience in

[00:41:34] Palestine there there seem to be very you know open expressions of affection between heterosexual

[00:41:42] homosexuality is so repressed you know it's it's got to come out somewhere right like

[00:41:50] it's got to come out somewhere yeah it's like in football because we talk about repress societies

[00:41:56] in the Middle East but I you know it's like any football coach maybe perhaps until 10 years ago

[00:42:05] would have said there's no gay people in football which is statistically impossible

[00:42:10] so let's not pretend that we are such an open society because we are not and the space is where

[00:42:16] you know female football you know most of them are lesbian's like people say that oh most most

[00:42:22] women who play football are lesbian's which like yes I know yeah I get to know but and in

[00:42:28] male football I'm sure a lot of coaches will say no there's no gay people here because you know

[00:42:35] football is a manly sport and I heard that many many times so you know repression comes in many

[00:42:42] compartments here in in the western or in Europe let's say and also in the western world where

[00:42:49] it is seemingly accepted but in some ways it's even worse because you know outside of London

[00:42:55] who's the gay couple who can kiss in public or a whole hands or you know that's it's difficult

[00:43:01] it can be done but it's not easy you know it's not an easy thing to do but yeah time for a little

[00:43:08] break don't you think Emily I think so yeah sounds good okay we'll speak to you in just a little while

[00:43:14] welcome back everyone so just as we start to talk more about the exhibition I think it's

[00:43:34] important for us just to take you into the space of the curve so like I said I've been to the barbeque

[00:43:41] tons of times and I've never been into the space and I you know I walked in it's near the shop

[00:43:47] and I saw the promotion of the exhibition on the wall in front of me and to left there are some

[00:43:54] stairs and I almost went down there and then the guy was like oh no you gotta go this way so

[00:43:59] so went to the right and you go through these giant doors and you are in a very different world

[00:44:07] than the rest of them you can then the rest of the yeah complex really and you go in and you're

[00:44:13] immediately in a dark space and as we've said it's a curve so it curves around so you can't see

[00:44:19] the entire space when you go in and yeah so all you're seeing is sort of one side is the hanging curtain

[00:44:30] you know which is a few meters you know after you get in and obviously there's a bit more

[00:44:36] there's a bit of text on the right hand side when you walk in that talks about

[00:44:40] the exhibition and about uh Sufian and on the floor there's a red pathway you know so there's

[00:44:49] a big red stripe on the floor on the right hand side that goes all along the right hand side of the

[00:44:54] curve that actually goes up the wall as well so that red stripe is sort of you know kind of

[00:45:00] not halfway at the wall maybe a quarter of the wall it's dark there's kind of mood music going on

[00:45:06] because he wanted to make it look like scenes from a club so but the music is not cluby music

[00:45:13] like I didn't feel that I wanted to dance to it it was sort of and so you walk in you've got the

[00:45:20] red you've got the chain curtain in front of you it's a dark you have this mood music and you

[00:45:27] don't see any images you don't see any art until you get past that chain curtain and the

[00:45:34] they all of the art is only on the inside of the curve there's nothing on the outside of the

[00:45:39] curve other than curve other than this red stripe that goes a bit up the wall otherwise it's

[00:45:46] complete darkness over there and so it is it is a feeling like it is such a strong you know evocative

[00:45:56] set of you know circumstances that kind of take you into what he's going to show you and like

[00:46:02] you said the first image is of this billyard table and again he's childlike in his drawing you know

[00:46:12] there's a rare there's real precision but in precision and there's saturated colors he's using

[00:46:19] colored pencils and beautiful colors yeah really strong colors yeah these are these are your

[00:46:26] child colored pencils for sure and yeah and and there's the the image of the billyard table

[00:46:35] and you know as you noted earlier working on changing the rules is written in the upper right hand

[00:46:43] side and and that's kind of like you're in this you're in the curve of this chain curtain

[00:46:50] and there's this one image and because it's so dark in there there's spotlights on each of the images

[00:46:58] so that's really the only thing that you're seeing clearly in the room is yes is the images

[00:47:05] themselves and the drawings are all on the left side of the exhibition which means at the curve

[00:47:12] so the curved wall and you see the people who are also just there in the space from the

[00:47:18] barbican and they kind of walk along and you feel like there's a nightclub vibe on the left

[00:47:23] and the museum vibe on the right and the right club vibe and on the left and old

[00:47:29] tiny museum like vibe because you see people walking like in a nightclub and then there's that

[00:47:35] music that is a bit ominous so you're kind of in a sort of hybrid space and then you have drawings

[00:47:44] of very specific settings and very specific bodies a lot yeah that's a really good point because

[00:47:52] there's a red strip of that's on the ground on the right hand side on the outer like you could almost

[00:48:00] see that as a walkway and if you want to you can sort of view things from afar you know you could

[00:48:06] almost see that as this is the pedestrian walkway and then if you want to cross the line into the

[00:48:13] club you can but there's there is a bit of a threshold feeling there and now that you mentioned it

[00:48:19] there were people while I was while I was at the exhibition that did seem to stay along

[00:48:25] the outer side you know it was like sort of a psychological divide there was this one woman

[00:48:31] who was there and look maybe she'd been there before and just wanted to do a sweep of it again

[00:48:38] who's troll by you know maybe she should already had sort of a bigger look but yeah there is because

[00:48:44] the curve of the chain curtain ends at that line so it's like you know the chain curtain is

[00:48:57] basically the inside is kind of framing yes you inside the club yeah yeah but yeah that is really

[00:49:05] cool I just like how clever how clever to clever it's so well built through it is yeah

[00:49:13] and then you come into this space and you're completely taken by the drawings that have

[00:49:23] I think this could win the trophy of the exhibition with the biggest number of male

[00:49:29] genitalia in the in the year I'm still in May but I think we can already give that and the male can

[00:49:37] we talk about the male genitalia the Pini or love it if the the plural of penis would be Pini

[00:49:44] would be so nice but they're so cute they're so they're the most adorable penises you'll ever see

[00:49:55] with a little pink mushroomy yes oh my god so nice we lots of hair drawn frantically around them

[00:50:05] and oh it they're just so beautiful and there are being sometimes in some drawings I'm looking

[00:50:10] at one of them because I took a few pictures where you see the background seems like the type

[00:50:18] of lights cones of light that you have in concerts or in nightclubs so there's kind of a golden

[00:50:25] light and then a purple light and they're wearing these glasses they look like 3D glasses back

[00:50:31] in the day when you were kind of like 3 films in 3 decades and you bought them in a magazine or

[00:50:38] something they came in a magazine remember and then they're completely naked and one of them

[00:50:44] to the left is Don Singh I love the way he draws hands by the way and the other one is kind of

[00:50:52] just kind of mindlessly touching his penis yeah and they're just having fun they're just kind

[00:51:00] of like there and also what is beautiful is that the bodies are either round up round or bits

[00:51:07] light brown yellowish so they're not white bodies and they have lots of hair like they have

[00:51:14] leg hair, pubic hair, chest hair and the my favorites armpit hair. Push it, push like armpit hair

[00:51:26] that is so gloriously drawn it's drawn with affection and love and maybe self-love I don't know

[00:51:32] how Sophia and the Barbaries body is but there's also a kind of self-defiction there I guess yeah

[00:51:38] and it's just really beautiful and the the guy on the right has blue hair so you can see that

[00:51:45] it's an alternative space, self-ternative bodies there are not accepted in society in the daylight

[00:51:54] how these bodies behave during the day and I loved so he all of the figures and all of the

[00:52:03] drawings have pink cheeks and so he talked about how this is showing yes rushing because it's the

[00:52:11] only emotion that you can't fake I mean there's not an actor out there maybe Merrill Street for

[00:52:18] something you know who can blush on demand and so you know he wanted to incorporate that in as

[00:52:25] you know that's kind of an innocent thing as well right it's like yes you know this you know this

[00:52:30] I'm having a pleasurable moment you know this is this is how my body responds and it's such a

[00:52:38] human or a post or gasmic you have a post or gasmic thing as well you know because you can see that

[00:52:44] a lot of these drawings could be post coitum drawings you know they're they're really

[00:52:50] beautiful, tired bodies lying down and that could also be the blushing but you're quite right

[00:52:58] he said and it's so beautiful because you have those brown skins and then in the place where the

[00:53:04] cheeks are they have like this really powerfully drawn pink area that yeah so cute it's just so

[00:53:12] it's just so nice and there's another drawing I don't quite remember what it's called

[00:53:18] where you have in the background these spots of color yeah a little bit like again nightclub lighting

[00:53:27] through a glass what do you call them glass balls like disco ball disco balls yes

[00:53:35] through this go ball and then you have a man in profile and the other man behind him is holding his head

[00:53:46] and you don't know if the red is makeup or if it's blood so you don't quite know what's going on

[00:53:53] that's true and again they're they have the blushing thing going on so you could see that there's a lot of

[00:54:01] stories being told at the same time it's a very late couple of drawings well body of work because

[00:54:10] there's super imposing stories being told there's another drawing which is outside of a nightclub

[00:54:16] that I refer to as well where you have different kinds of bodies you have male bodies for sure

[00:54:22] but you have also have trans bodies so there's different stories being told here and he's very

[00:54:27] adamant in saying that he's interested in you know post colonial issues in immigration issues

[00:54:34] he's really interested in anything that is uttering and connected to the history of both countries

[00:54:40] Morocco and France as well and Europe in general and that was the thing that kind of touched me

[00:54:47] which was that the first thing I thought about was that was George Michael and the crazy guy

[00:54:52] was out because I can the Iranian female friend of mine was saying she's saying you know

[00:54:59] in Europe you guys think that you're very developed but I can see how oppressed women are here as well

[00:55:05] in completely different ways and she was really shocked when she arrived in Europe and she saw

[00:55:11] the ads for you know for cars with women and bikinis and and that's something that she

[00:55:19] wouldn't see in Iran and she didn't love it either so you know that's that's interesting you know

[00:55:25] to to define different kinds of oppression and to understand different kinds of oppression

[00:55:31] or tacit repression you know ingrained repression as well it's it's it's really interesting

[00:55:39] to see that yeah definitely I mean I you know on the on the joyful end one of my favorites

[00:55:46] I think this might be my favorite is there's a mattress on the floor there's a guy standing

[00:55:54] you see his back he's naked he's holding up like an old school iPod

[00:56:00] oh yeah I connect I accord to a couple of old school-ish speakers and then there's a

[00:56:09] guy just laying on the mattress you know kind of with his head on his hand and he's

[00:56:16] propped up on his elbow just watching this guy dance like crazy with his iPod and on the on

[00:56:24] the mattress there's a book that's open and it just says men in the sun you know and I just thought

[00:56:31] like I just you know who can't imagine the scene in their own lives at some point in their lives

[00:56:38] you know yes yeah I also thought I also had the feeling when I got in

[00:56:45] of this is really really very far from my universe I don't know what he's talking

[00:56:54] I don't experience this I hardly ever go clubbing and gay clubs which are obviously for

[00:57:03] you know straight bisexual and lesbian females maybe not lesbians but like your preferred clubs

[00:57:09] I don't know about you but I think you know that's where you feel safe and you like going if you want

[00:57:13] to have a night out without any you know trouble coming towards you yeah so they're closing up in

[00:57:21] you know voxel was the area where you would go and they're all they're all closing up and

[00:57:26] they're going to quite well saying like lifestyle changes also self policing maybe

[00:57:34] I don't it's just not gentrification of a lot of areas where you can't really behave the way you did

[00:57:40] before and you can you don't feel as free and invisible to the rest of society as you did

[00:57:48] and I mean voxel now is not what it was back in the day you know it used to be like the

[00:57:53] mecha for you know I mean my son my stepson used to you know that was sort of his go to

[00:58:00] as a young gay man and exactly and I remember a gay friend of mine telling me you know that yeah

[00:58:08] that that was just that was just the area there were so many places to go there was this one place

[00:58:14] called hoist which I loved because it was you know it just the imagination runs wild doesn't it you

[00:58:22] know but like you could get hoisted up and like thrown into like this this Velcro wall you

[00:58:28] know it's like fun you know I mean yeah just wow that's really a shame to know that there

[00:58:35] but still I felt oh this is not my this is not it all my comfort zone I don't know much about this

[00:58:44] and I also thought having lived in France for many years speaking the language you know

[00:58:51] flu more than fluently writing in French all of that and coming across and having friends from Morocco

[00:58:58] I also felt really ignorant I have to say this podcast is teaching me how that the more you know

[00:59:03] the less you know a very secretic exercise because I was thinking I had to look up

[00:59:09] the relationship between Morocco and France the colonial relationship between Morocco and France

[00:59:14] because I didn't know the story I mean I knew it but I didn't know exactly so

[00:59:20] Morocco's history is quite complex because they had to elbow they weigh in you know against Algeria

[00:59:26] it's still unstable in the south south west and they were a protectorate they weren't really

[00:59:35] a colony as it were I mean they were colonized obviously it wasn't that long he was like 40 years

[00:59:41] about 40 years but then the French imperialistic culture and and power remained very strongly in the

[00:59:52] culture I mean if you hear Moroccan speak they speak exactly like you speak in the rest of France

[00:59:58] it's really the language takes a big hold on and the French really did colonize a lot through

[01:00:05] language and culture and it's it's very strong there and if you want to study you go to France

[01:00:11] to study which is exactly what Sufiana Barbrie did for many reasons I'm sure that's kind of your

[01:00:16] aspirational thing is to kind of come to Europe and particularly to France and study there

[01:00:23] while being fetishized so a few writers I'm thinking of Abdallah Tayah

[01:00:31] to talk a lot about the fetishization of Arab bodies which is almost worse in some ways especially

[01:00:36] in the gay community where you want to have a little Arab boy and it's kind of positive discrimination

[01:00:45] as well and and tied to a community that is not very visible so you can't really talk about

[01:00:52] your your problems regarding that as well and the exhibition made me think of Abdallah Tayah actually

[01:01:01] who is Moroccan writer who writes in French he writes in bad French so it's exactly the same thing

[01:01:12] as Sufiana Barbrie withdrawing he doesn't write in academic French he's very expressionistic

[01:01:20] in the way he writes it's it's very passionate and very you know descriptive and very emotional

[01:01:27] he writes in a sort of flow of consciousness in 2018 he felt the need of writing a letter to his

[01:01:33] mum he was illiterate there's an issue with his identity and in 2018 the government

[01:01:41] started like the the virus is new rule against anything unto words in regards to

[01:01:49] the mors so that meant you know no gay you know no maganda in art or wherever and so he wrote a letter

[01:01:56] called homosexuality explained to my mother and the letter is addressed to the mum and it's really

[01:02:02] beautiful because he he does say I'm exactly like you the reason why I respect my own identity

[01:02:09] and talk about it is because I'm like you you told me how to be a person who fights for their own

[01:02:15] rights you were the master of the house and you fought every day and you and the the pain of

[01:02:21] of telling her that she taught him how to be himself and her not understanding that is very you know

[01:02:29] it's patent in the letter and so he ends the letter by saying in my books and in my conferences

[01:02:36] I defend you I tell you I make you exist I dream that one day if someone insults me in front of

[01:02:44] you saying your son your brother is Zammal that you might answer no he is not Zammal he is

[01:02:50] Matali I think Matali's like ideal or something like that it's a word a simple little world

[01:02:57] words that changes everything a word revolution decide for yourselves I do not demand anything

[01:03:05] I proceed I fly as I am able I pray like mother does in my own way I write there is something

[01:03:13] terrible in each of us here hatred of the Moroccan where does it come from why does it remain

[01:03:19] why not that to be ourselves to break free to break free through provocation and scandal in any case

[01:03:25] there is no other way only to forget fear and face the world naked voila again in tenderness my truth

[01:03:34] for you I don't like unnecessary confrontations I am for necessary battles the war I

[01:03:41] wage with and against Morocco is useful I believe that sincerely I must not be the only one

[01:03:47] I can speak right for me and for others I do it it's my duty a warm salam to you all and this was

[01:03:54] translated from the French by Ricardo Marato so it's really made me think of the exhibition I fight

[01:04:01] face the world naked which was exactly what you were saying because when you're saying in the

[01:04:06] beginning oh this was not you know combative and I was like she has roasted glasses doesn't she

[01:04:12] but actually you're absolutely right it's just a nakedness is there to face the world like Abdelatayas

[01:04:22] you know it's not to say here we are this is a pride moment you know no it really is facing the

[01:04:29] world naked and I love that you know for that absolutely yeah that's a really beautiful

[01:04:36] beautiful letter thank you for for sharing that I mean it's such a powerful thing isn't it and I think

[01:04:42] because yeah I mean what does it mean to fight you know I mean what does that mean does it mean to say

[01:04:51] you don't and you must and you should have then I demand yeah that's part of fighting that is

[01:04:57] definitely a valuable part of fighting but I mean this way of just saying I'm here and I'm going to be my

[01:05:05] presence known and you know I'm going to dare to be myself to break free as he says in this letter you

[01:05:14] know that that you're exactly right there is such a beautiful correlation between

[01:05:18] Sufian's work and you know expressing what he's talking about here I am naturally

[01:05:26] non-combative you know I mean I I say you know I non-confrontational to the M baby not that there's

[01:05:35] not value there it's just not the way I'm wired to sort of have a row down of the gauntlet and I

[01:05:42] admire people who are and can be but I love this notion of just like settling up to the

[01:05:50] thing and being like you know what here it is you know kind of like and it's not going anywhere so

[01:05:57] good luck to you but you know this is this is what I am this is what I represent especially when

[01:06:04] it comes to issues of identity I think who you all and how you position yourself in the world

[01:06:10] and to what extent you're free to be who you are and to what extent you have to do in a work

[01:06:17] within yourself and that's why I love what he would have the lot Tias says but also Sufian

[01:06:23] abobree I'm a rockin you know I am of that culture and I have to think about that culture because it's

[01:06:30] in me and I have to defend that culture when he says I love you mom I am like you how can you

[01:06:37] not see that I'm like you he describes his mother screaming all the time and like you know just

[01:06:43] ruling that household of five children I think and a dad who just screaming her lungs out

[01:06:52] and just like battling every day for things to be okay for things to be there and to function

[01:06:59] and that was her struggle and that was her fight and he's not like that he's not someone who's

[01:07:06] but he's screaming in another way and he's not someone who prays but he is praying he's writing

[01:07:11] and this commonality positions and of fights it's so beautiful to see and and this very strange

[01:07:20] decotomy if I don't want to be that Moroccan but I want to be that other Moroccan I want I don't

[01:07:25] want that part of the culture but I am that other part of the culture is really interesting

[01:07:30] and it's really beautiful to see how I think at a certain age you've done your own

[01:07:39] identity search and then you can put it out there in the way that is non-combatif

[01:07:46] and it is done with compassion and love because it's so easy to shout no it's much more

[01:07:52] difficult to be compassionate and to bring love and humanity and humanity and the people who

[01:08:00] hate you the most I think that really is and that's why I bought Maggie Nelson's book on freedom

[01:08:06] she just published a book 20 23 I think it was at the barbican like right after the exhibition

[01:08:13] I went to the bookshop and I saw the book and she struggles with that too in the introduction she

[01:08:19] says you know what does that mean to live as if you were free is that the solution or is the solution

[01:08:27] to think of a former time where there was freedom or work towards a moment when freedom will finally

[01:08:34] be reached you know what is how is it and this freedom tied in with care and that's what the

[01:08:42] book is about and I am just really very very you know I'm urging to read it because I'm really

[01:08:49] interested in seeing what she says because that is the issue now isn't it? They're in the polarized

[01:08:54] society as you often say how do you position yourself I'm some I'm a very angry person

[01:09:02] now I think we have a duty of care to people who are being oppressed I don't know I don't

[01:09:08] know I'm lost Emily yeah what to do and what to say and how to act but I think that you know

[01:09:16] I think not to bring it back to shit's creek again and my favorite yes please do

[01:09:23] I watch the yesterday I watched yesterday as well and the it was the episode where of Moira was

[01:09:31] running for the council one of my own yeah but she but in that show they are doing

[01:09:40] that very thing they are assuming the fights over we're not gonna we're not gonna be a show

[01:09:46] that's depicting more of the fight we're a show depicting a reality where the fight doesn't exist

[01:09:53] does the fight still exist yes of course you know I mean absolutely but there is real power

[01:10:00] in doing I think you know what what Sufianne Bobbi is doing which is saying this is a thing that's

[01:10:08] here and I'm gonna show it to you and I'm gonna sidle up to you with it with an innocence

[01:10:16] and a care and you know in a non kind of love there's a lot of love in the joy

[01:10:25] in a way so you know not not so I hope that you're like accepted but just hopefully maybe

[01:10:32] that you'll see it I the first sort I had was like what a stupid move honestly like you know

[01:10:39] because we have stupid thoughts as well they could just come up yeah I was thinking what is stupid

[01:10:43] move like people are gonna say this is disgusting and first of all they're all naked why are

[01:10:48] they showing penises because when you go in people you are warned that there's nakedness and

[01:10:55] that if you don't want to be confronted with that maybe don't see the show which I found the funniest

[01:11:00] trigger warning ever because you're taking your bathroom in the morning for God's sake do you have

[01:11:07] a trigger warning outside on your bathroom door I mean she's so looking to take it just don't look

[01:11:16] I remember having a conversation about you know homosexual couples adopting kids and I was just saying

[01:11:23] as you as I don't do that anymore but or I do it as a provocation but I'm very innocently saying like

[01:11:30] when can this happen normally you know already I'm just sick of this being an argument and

[01:11:37] looking at the person I was talking to or I presumed was on my side kind of looking bewildered and

[01:11:43] saying wow you're very progressive aren't you wow I mean that's something to think about

[01:11:51] and I just thought even if you present a couple same sex couple who just wants to parent

[01:11:59] which is the the purest thing you can think of those people not be convinced so of course

[01:12:05] was a stupid thought and of course you need to show a safe space where you're happy and you have

[01:12:11] pleasure and you actually can be yourself I'm not in love with seeing penises like it's like not my

[01:12:17] favorite image you know even though his right sweet with the pink drawn like that come on yeah

[01:12:25] look like pink mushrooms yeah yeah yeah it's still I find it very joyful I love it yeah

[01:12:34] what is the work that you would have taken home my favorite work was certainly the mattress on the floor

[01:12:40] and the dancing and the chilling out that was just so so good

[01:12:48] what would you have taken home so my favorite drawing and I have no idea what it's called I took a

[01:12:54] picture of it I really loved it and it is a corner there's in the background it's a corner of a room

[01:13:02] it's not a night life setting maybe that's why I liked it because I'm not a big clubbing going out

[01:13:08] at night person and there's two men one is kneeling on one on his right leg and the other one

[01:13:18] the other leg is bent he's turning his back to us and then there's another one who's facing us

[01:13:25] they both have their hands in the air as if they're dancing and so you have from the back

[01:13:32] a little penis hanging out like a mushroomy cute thing and then the other one obviously

[01:13:38] is facing us which is the only red color that you have and then you have the hands

[01:13:46] are not drawn they're just drawn like hair and the bodies are full of hair full of hair you know

[01:13:54] just hair belly hair armpit hair leg hair but hair yeah beautiful and the and they have these

[01:14:04] haircuts as well like the fades that are now fashionable in the UK as well and one of them

[01:14:13] has a beard and they just look so into what they're doing that their faces are very much

[01:14:20] concentrated and what they're doing they're not showing themselves to us and I just love it because

[01:14:27] the body is so unapologetically drawn with pleasure and you can see the excitement because

[01:14:34] the hands are kind of like through they kind of turn into kind of branches or little twigs or hair

[01:14:42] and they're drawn in the same way as the body hair so I just found that really interesting

[01:14:49] and it also takes me to the way he draws which is probably in bed kind of dreaming and imagining

[01:14:57] and reminiscing maybe he says that only 10% of the people he draws are the people he knows so

[01:15:03] he kind of probably meldimates references stuff in his life things he's done and who hasn't been

[01:15:10] naked with their partner dancing in the morning you know when it's really hot and you're put

[01:15:17] put some music on I just I just love it and I love the bodies I love the way they're drawn I mean

[01:15:23] the but is just two circles and I love also the way he draws the bodies because you're bulging

[01:15:28] everything's like you're rupting they're kind of bloated with desire and pleasure and those

[01:15:35] bodies in particular look like that and I just find them so beautiful and I would definitely have this

[01:15:43] in my home for sure it's a shame I don't good well I mean I think the bottom line here is that

[01:15:49] people should check out Sufianobabri. Thank you so much Joanna that was lovely and thank you to all

[01:15:55] the listeners for listening from all across the world it has been such a joy to see more and

[01:16:01] more of you joining us on this exhibition tour let us know what you want to hear about what you're

[01:16:08] seeing you can find us on Instagram you can rate reviews subscribe recommend it to your friends that

[01:16:17] would be fantastic and we can we can watch this community grow even even more thank you to Emily this was

[01:16:23] really really joyful the next episode will be focusing on La Bina he meets at the Royal Academy so

[01:16:32] very very happy to do an episode on this incredible artist and yes so until next time have a great

[01:16:40] couple of weeks go see exhibitions we go see them so that you have to and you know visit your local

[01:16:47] galleries you don't have to go to big museums support artists anywhere in any form and tell us about it

[01:16:54] you know follow us on Instagram and tell us about what you've been looking at what you've been seeing

[01:16:59] until next time take care of a great life and bye Emily thank you