In My Art Tools (new segment) we look into 2 artists' tool box: what is their fetish instrument? Artists think with their hands. Let's get technical! The artist's hand will guide you through the passion of following one’s vision, the pleasures of trusting an instinct, and the resilience it takes to work creatively. Hosted by Joana P. R. Neves.
The guests: Anouk Mercier (UK + FR) and Marina Roca Díe (SP).
In an endearingly geeky manner, the answers reveal fantastic methods and unimaginable stories. A big plus: hilarious little incidents and big misadventures that lead to a breakthrough, or a new possibility.
What you get from this episode: Have you ever thought about the stuff art is made of? Wondered how artists make what you see in museums and galleries? How they train their hand, eye, body? Artmaking revelations, art techniques, lessons in resilience, art philosophies, ethical questions.
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00:00:01
Hello, I'm Joanna Pionevis, creator and host of exhibition
00:00:05
esters and this is the first episode of the segment My Art
00:00:09
Tools, where I take you to two artists studios by asking a
00:00:15
simple question which unexpectedly reveals quite a few
00:00:18
secrets and stories from the creative source itself.
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And the sources in question are Anuk Mercier, an artist who is
00:00:27
now based in France, but has lived many years in the UK and
00:00:31
still teaches at UE Bristol. And Marina Rocardier, who is
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based in Madrid and has currently, at the time of
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recording and release of the episodes of the 3rd of October
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2025, an exhibition at the El Chico Gallery in her hometown,
00:00:50
which we mentioned during the episode because the artists were
00:00:55
interviewed in their studios and show a few things to the camera.
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This may be an episode you might want to watch on Spotify or
00:01:03
YouTube, but the audio experience works too.
00:01:07
If that's what you prefer, that's not a problem.
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If you want to know more about the artists, I would recommend
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going on Instagram and following exhibition esters, or even
00:01:18
better, signing up to the newsletter to learn more about
00:01:22
them and also to get the links and little gems that didn't make
00:01:26
it to the episode there. For those who may not know, the
00:01:30
exhibition Esters files are part of my page Joanna Pierre Nevis
00:01:34
on Sub Stack. And I don't send informative
00:01:38
newsletters because I really don't enjoy that.
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And if I fill in your inbox and spend time promoting each
00:01:47
episode, it has to be for a better cause.
00:01:50
So by signing up, you get to access a different kind of
00:01:53
information. And also all of my texts and a
00:01:57
lot of other posts on Sub Stack that are not newsletters.
00:02:02
I don't have anything under a paywall and I'd love to keep it
00:02:06
that way. So donations are appreciated
00:02:09
either through the website, exhibitionistpodcast.com or Sub
00:02:13
Stack, or even Buy me a coffee. All those links are in the
00:02:17
show's notes. Or if you go to Sub Stack,
00:02:19
obviously you have the subscription button function at
00:02:24
the top of the screen. I think you'll find it.
00:02:28
Anyway, let's move on to the episode.
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Allow me to plead my case. What if I told you that the
00:02:40
tools used by artists are absolutely fascinating and may
00:02:44
hold the key to an understanding of their work from within?
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We create myths in art, right, Based on the images and
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documents we have at hand. Pollock with the drip paintings,
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for instance. But what if we looked closely at
00:03:02
other practices and gestures? What if we paid attention?
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And also, what if you had someone who would bring these
00:03:09
informations to you? And that's what I'm here for.
00:03:13
Artists use unexpected tools or familiar ones in unexpected
00:03:18
ways. I'm not looking for the
00:03:20
spectacular here, although it might happen, but for the
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sensible shift that suddenly opens a panoramic view on a work
00:03:30
of art or a whole body of work. But another thing that led me to
00:03:34
think more intentionally about this topic was an exhibition at
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the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford dedicated to Raphael's drawings.
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When I went there, I expected to see a few sketches, and indeed
00:03:48
the exhibition had exquisite works.
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But there weren't only sketches or projects.
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There were these sorts of screens, or what I now know to
00:04:02
be called cartoons, with holes on the outline of the figures.
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And in fact, these cartoons are full size drawings used to
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transfer the structure or the composition of the figure,
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carefully tested and defined previously through drawing onto
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a wall or onto whatever surface the painting is going to be on
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by pouncing or tracing. So it means that those little
00:04:36
holes, they were intentional. They were there for a purpose.
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The purpose was to then apply powdered charcoal or black chalk
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on the drawing so that the little dots would be marked on
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the surface to then be painted on.
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There was a table there with a display of all the tools that
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Raphael used. So when you think of painting,
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when you think of drawing, you think of pencil, you think of
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graphite, and you think of brushes and paints.
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And what the display included were colored chalks and charcoal
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metal points, which are rods of metal alloys, so gold, silver,
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copper or leads and leads that left microscopic particles on
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paper. And so the colour of the line
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would depend on the composition of the rod, pen and ink.
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He used the blind stylus, which was used to sort of try out
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different shapes without marking the paper and the compass, so a
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double pointed compass. So you can see there was a lot
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of precision. None of this is in the catalog,
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which I promptly bought because I really wanted to study that.
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And in my research for the episode, I noticed that only two
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articles mention in passing this display of tools in the
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exhibition, enumerating what I just told you and not what I
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have on my Instagram, because I took a picture of that display
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and I looked it up. Now this was in 2017.
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And then the picture I took, there's Reed pen and a fine
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brush. So of course this is not to
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criticize anyone here, but I do feel that we look at art more
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like historians and less like Tekken.
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Technologically savvy people with curious minds and who
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actually know how to handle stuff and can very quickly put
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ourselves in the minds of the people who are creating.
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Historians are obsessed with timelines and influences, which
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is funny to me, knowing how much artists lie about dates.
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So the Renaissance after all. When I left that exhibition, I
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thought associates imagination with science, chemistry with
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observation. But mostly, how silly.
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The myth of the artist painting from nothing and also to me at
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least, how uninspiring it's. You know, it's as if everything
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came from the inside, as if the artist didn't spend countless
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times adjusting the material to the imaginations, but also
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perhaps the imagination to the material.
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The precision of the transfer and the care in using a double
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pointed compass shows the importance of the final image,
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the painting The Italian Renaissance feels to me more
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cinema than free representation. It is more seductive than
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inspirational. And it's closer, bear with me,
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to the convincing power of deepfakes almost than the
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compulsions of surrealism. Especially when you know how the
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images are made, you look at them in a completely different
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way. So Anuk and I talked precisely
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about the playfulness of this dynamic between the tool and the
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image, the project, the making, and the outcome, before she told
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me what her favorite tool was. Drawing can be anything you have
00:08:28
at hand really. And so, you know, often that is,
00:08:33
you know, just buy her in a piece of paper or pencil, but it
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can be other things. You know, you can be out walking
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and it might be the soil under foot that you use with your
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fingers and mark of recording, even if your favorite tool is a
00:08:44
graphite stick, is that the best tool for the project that you're
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working on today? Is it the best tool to translate
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the, you know, the object or the scene that you want to record?
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So I would say in terms of teaching, actually my approach
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is the opposite to having a favorite tool.
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Sometimes you have an idea and that is the foremost, you know,
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that's the first thing, that's the starting point.
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And then the tool you, you know, is there to support the idea and
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to make it come to life. But sometimes a tool will
00:09:17
inspire an idea or will drive you towards a certain direction,
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which is why, again, if we talk in terms of teaching, but also
00:09:26
applied to the studio practice playing is so important.
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Because if you only rely on ideas and you know, using tools
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to to make those ideas come true, you might actually miss
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out on something that is experimental that you wouldn't
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have planned. That really only stems from
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playing practice. It shows my fountain pain.
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And I think it's because it's very difficult to find the right
00:09:54
one. There are thousands of them and
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it's a pretty expensive material, expensive tool.
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My husband, he gave it to me from a trip.
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He, well, I used to live in Berlin and then from a trip he
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did in Madrid, he went to the flea market here.
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And if you search for it, you will find this like stands with
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like really vintage boxes of thousands of these.
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And they are pretty, pretty cheap for what you can pay in
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the store. So he he was able to buy, I
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don't know, 5 or 6 for me to try them.
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And this is my favorite 1. So first of all, the looks, it's
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like a steelo pen, like black. It's plastic.
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Actually, I think it's like embedded like it's metal
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embedded into the plastic, which is a bit strange, you know, but
00:10:51
it gives it like this look like this vintage look.
00:10:54
So I I really like this one because of the strength of the
00:10:59
point, you know, like sometimes you have to yeah, the tip
00:11:04
sometimes bench for calligraphy are too hard for drawing.
00:11:09
Like you can feel like the paper is scratching, you know, like
00:11:15
like this feeling and that I don't like.
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I like it to have some flexibility in the tip.
00:11:20
While ink is not so important for Marina, Anuk's choice is
00:11:25
surprising as it is as much a tool as it is a material, but it
00:11:30
has another component to it. Raphael could not have used it.
00:11:35
As opposed to marinas fountain pen, which is very very close to
00:11:41
the Renaissance materials, Anuk's choice of tool, which is
00:11:48
also in some ways a material, is completely dependent upon 20th
00:11:54
century technology of the machine.
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When you when you asked me this question, I thought immediately
00:12:00
about toner. I always thought that it was
00:12:02
just carbon powder, which is what it is.
00:12:05
But yesterday, because I was like, I'd better double check
00:12:08
that I'm right about this, I found out that it's actually
00:12:13
these tiny particles of plastic coated in carbon powder.
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So I did not know that. So basically this we're talking
00:12:24
about toner. So this is, you know, the toner,
00:12:26
Carter, is that all of us have in in, you know, in used at some
00:12:30
point. They're in most photocopiers.
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If you've been to what really any type of education, they are
00:12:36
basically these little plastic particles coated in carbon
00:12:40
powder that are then applied to paper using laser technology and
00:12:49
there's an electric charge involved as well.
00:12:52
And then it's burnt onto the paper.
00:12:55
So the like the plastic particles melt and literally,
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you know, sort of cement the carbon powder onto the paper.
00:13:03
So tono is literally those that carbon dust for many, many years
00:13:08
I have used it and I never referenced it.
00:13:12
So, you know, when people ask you, you know, whatever to list
00:13:17
the materials of an artwork. For years, toner did not
00:13:20
feature. I would just say acetone
00:13:22
transfer, which is a transfer method that I used with acetone.
00:13:27
And basically what happens in this transfer technique is that
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I use a toner photocopier. I apply the acetone to the back
00:13:38
of the photocopy. The acetone repels the carbon
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powder and reprints it. So it transfers it back onto
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another piece of paper. So essentially it takes that
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carbon dust that's all over my my initial photocopy and it
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repels it and pushes the little particles onto the next piece of
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paper. Everything started from having
00:14:01
an idea from, you know, 18th century landscapes and etchings
00:14:07
in particular, being my, you know, predominant source of
00:14:10
inspiration, let's say, and wanting to appropriate those
00:14:14
references into my work. I remember this does not happen
00:14:17
anymore because of health and safety.
00:14:18
But when I was an art student on my foundation course, one way of
00:14:23
introducing students very quickly to the notions of
00:14:26
printmaking was to do acetone transfers.
00:14:29
So I remembered that, you know, years ago, Foundation, I had
00:14:33
tried this technique. I loved how immediate it was.
00:14:35
You've got the photocopy, you transfer it and you know, 2
00:14:38
seconds later you have your transfers.
00:14:40
But it really came from, I had an image, I needed to transfer
00:14:44
it. How do I do it?
00:14:45
Go to the photocopy machine, photocopy, transfer and move on.
00:14:50
And I think there's also something to do with photocopies
00:14:54
are so familiar to all of us. They were very unprecious.
00:14:58
We're not that far from the intricate processes that Raphael
00:15:02
and other artists of the Renaissance used to work on
00:15:08
their shapes, to copy them, to transfer them onto drawings,
00:15:13
from drawings and then to the final piece.
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We're not that far away from a sort of a mechanic handling of
00:15:22
the shape through a very, very trained hand.
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The artists of the Renaissance used mechanical copy of drawings
00:15:34
that they were satisfied with, and why waste time making them
00:15:39
over and over again? And why not keep them?
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And perhaps once they're transferred on to the final
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piece, maybe change them a little bit.
00:15:51
And something to note as well is that that technique, you know,
00:15:55
the pouncing technique, breaking little holes on an outline was
00:16:00
used for tapestries, for example, to reproduce patterns
00:16:05
of tapestries and other crafts. So there is also.
00:16:09
This tension in the technique that is used to make.
00:16:13
What we call, perhaps with a sense of grandeur, masterpieces.
00:16:17
So in some ways it's really interesting to use 20th century
00:16:23
tools in order to look at what was done in the past, play the
00:16:29
anachronic game, and try to assess what we try to obtain
00:16:35
through these tools that seem so distant and yet kind of produce
00:16:41
the same thing, which is to extract images that already
00:16:48
exist in order to make new ones. And so that really affects the
00:16:53
idea we have of creation and of image making from a an artistic
00:17:00
point of view, not from an entertainment point of view or
00:17:03
from from a publicity and advertisement point of view, but
00:17:07
really this area, this field of intense creativity, imagination,
00:17:13
but also science and research and purpose and intentional
00:17:21
experimentation. When looking at the work of both
00:17:26
artists, you would not imagine the technical challenges that
00:17:30
they both have, nor the physical engagement with the process.
00:17:34
My first kind of, you know, Commission, which was to create
00:17:40
an artwork for Bristol Museum. I basically, you know, I
00:17:44
proposed my whole idea for the Commission, which would
00:17:47
basically be to photocopy images from their collections to bring
00:17:54
their collection back to life through a new artwork, which is,
00:17:58
you know, a, a way of working which I adore, like plunging
00:18:02
into history and looking at collection and, and, and really
00:18:06
finding ways for the, you know, contemporary audiences to re
00:18:09
engage with those, you know, artworks and artists and
00:18:13
narratives. So, you know, it was really
00:18:16
exciting for me to get an opportunity to work with a
00:18:18
museum on this so I could pitch to my idea.
00:18:23
And everyone agreed, Move forward was very excited.
00:18:26
And at the time, even though I graduated, I did all my
00:18:29
photocopying at the UE library. So I would sneak back in, even
00:18:35
though I wasn't really allowed to, and I would photocopy, you
00:18:39
know, and yes, apologies to UE if they're listening to this,
00:18:44
this, I guess, you know, it sounds kind of crazy, but to me,
00:18:47
an hour and a half of photocopying images is
00:18:50
comparable to a painter going to an art shop and buying tubs of
00:18:54
painting. It was my primary source
00:18:57
material, right? And you can still see behind me.
00:19:00
This is how I do. So I do lots of photocopies.
00:19:02
Then I put them up on the wall. So I see the images and then
00:19:04
I'll select areas of them, cut them out and then transfer them.
00:19:08
And on this occasion, which felt to me like the most important
00:19:11
time, you know, finally had a Commission for a museum, I got
00:19:17
to the library, did all my photocopying, go back to the
00:19:20
studio, sat down, started to make and it didn't work.
00:19:25
It just didn't work. So the photocopies that I had
00:19:30
made, I did everything as usual, used the acetone and nothing
00:19:35
happened. So obviously utter panic.
00:19:39
And then I spent a day going around Bristol in all different
00:19:43
shops doing different photocopies to see if it was the
00:19:45
photocopier that was different. And all of, you know, just tried
00:19:49
lots of different things and I, I just couldn't make it work
00:19:52
anymore. I ended up actually contacting
00:19:55
the photocopying machine producers, I can't remember who
00:20:00
it was. And a very helpful person
00:20:02
explained to me. That it's because the technology
00:20:05
was advancing and they were now burning the toner and so burning
00:20:12
the carbon powder at much higher temperatures onto the paper,
00:20:16
which to them was great because I don't know if you remember
00:20:20
this from holding for copious you used to have black fingers
00:20:23
afterwards and that was the toner powder coming off on your
00:20:26
hands. So for them, increasing the
00:20:29
temperature meant there was no more staining of fingers, but it
00:20:33
also more durable, you know, just better quality all around.
00:20:37
So basically he said to me, you know, we're going around
00:20:40
replacing all of the photocopiers so that now they
00:20:43
burn at much high temperature. So your technique isn't going to
00:20:46
work anymore. The only way to resolve this is
00:20:48
that I then did lots of research, spoke to the guys at,
00:20:54
you know, the various printer companies, printer
00:20:57
manufacturers, and identified a model that still use toner at
00:21:02
the temperature I needed. And I bought the photocopier and
00:21:06
it's in my studio and I still have it today.
00:21:09
And they still luckily make those toner cartridges further
00:21:12
for that photocopier. All this to say, I am so not a
00:21:17
geeky person. This makes me sound like, you
00:21:19
know, I'm really into understanding technology and
00:21:21
actually I'm really not that kind of person.
00:21:23
But the technology I was using has forced me to become a bit of
00:21:28
a photocopier geek and a toner geek.
00:21:32
And from that day on, I started listing toner as a medium
00:21:38
because I was like, it's a very real thing.
00:21:41
Drawing is a much more complex affair when it comes to tools,
00:21:44
but also the body, or perhaps I should say when it comes to the
00:21:48
relation between the body and whatever is used to make the
00:21:53
image or the final artwork. I have a lot of anxiety with
00:21:59
with my hands, you know, like I am all the time like needing to
00:22:03
do something. Like if I'm in a bar, I'm like
00:22:07
squeezing a little napkin or like a piece of paper or like
00:22:11
doing something while I talk. And yeah, and it's very common
00:22:16
that I am touching the lid while I'm drawing.
00:22:20
So for me, drawing is something of like, it's an activity
00:22:24
related with this, right? Drawing in a way, there are no
00:22:28
mistakes. But at the beginning when you
00:22:30
Start learning, there's a lot of mistakes, you know, so you learn
00:22:34
to spot them and to really realize if you want to keep them
00:22:39
or not, you know, and in a ways like beforehand.
00:22:42
So I would say a mistake in a drawing done now for me would be
00:22:52
that is like out of composition for like for me, composition is
00:22:55
like, is my, is my problem, You know, because I think, yeah, I,
00:23:01
I tend to be very expansive. And so I, I approach too much to
00:23:06
the borders. Sometimes I, I don't leave space
00:23:10
to continue, you know, like I just like, I expand and expand.
00:23:16
I would need more paper, but then like, but the paper is
00:23:19
limited. That's like what constitutes
00:23:21
A-frame. Like you have to assume the
00:23:23
frame before you start. It's a rule.
00:23:25
It's a rule from the substance of the material you're using.
00:23:30
It's like like you cannot assume an infinite frame like an
00:23:36
infinite paper. Like you have to assume the
00:23:39
borders of the paper because then at some point you get out
00:23:42
of the paper, you know, like you're painting on the table at
00:23:47
some point. So it's like it's a given, I
00:23:49
think. And, but it's more like the
00:23:53
relationship with the thing I'm drawing.
00:23:55
Like for example, if I'm planning to draw a figure in a
00:23:59
landscape and then I start to, with the fountain pain, I start
00:24:04
from, I don't know the head of the figure.
00:24:06
Normally I do it too big, then the landscape is not fitting in.
00:24:12
That's my problem. I would need more paper around
00:24:16
and then I would expand the drawing and then I would add
00:24:18
more paper around and spend the drawing and more paper.
00:24:21
And then it's like it's impossible.
00:24:23
Like no, no, you have to contain it.
00:24:25
Like it's important. The frame is the most important,
00:24:29
you know, And with drawing, I think it's more this fact is
00:24:35
very obvious in the sense that for me, a drawing is something
00:24:40
like the paper is just a support.
00:24:43
But you could actually remove that support and put a black one
00:24:48
or a yellow one and another any other color, any other coloring
00:24:52
of paper. And you could still rise up the
00:24:55
drawing like as if it was like a wire, you know, in I want a
00:25:01
void. But it's also like it's a, it's
00:25:03
a way of seeing, you know, like with your eyes.
00:25:06
It's a way of using your eyes while you're drawing.
00:25:09
I think it's a yeah, Yeah. Like drawing has that like this
00:25:13
flattening of reality and then you the paper is assumed.
00:25:18
But it could be any other paper or any other material, or it
00:25:21
could be a wall, or it could be directly the frame, and then you
00:25:26
draw on a board of the frame. I'm a painter.
00:25:30
I'm a Flat Earth, you know, like the frame is the paint is the
00:25:34
painting. Damn it.
00:25:40
No, of course I'm joking, but it's for me the painting is a
00:25:49
frame actually. That's like the frame of
00:25:52
reference, like on the format. That's also why my exhibition
00:25:56
now that is like an installation instead of just white cube and
00:26:00
paintings on top. Because in a way I think every
00:26:05
painter or every draft man needs to assume the frame, but this
00:26:11
also desire to get out of the frame.
00:26:13
And so for me, like the effect of the white cube on on
00:26:18
paintings in a painting exhibition is the same as the
00:26:22
effect of the paper on a drawing.
00:26:25
It's just the support. And you assume it, you don't
00:26:28
think about it. And it could be another 1 you
00:26:30
could change, exchange it for another one, you know.
00:26:36
So what I'm doing is like covering the whole all walls and
00:26:40
like braking on the white cube. Yeah.
00:26:44
And then I'm putting the paintings on top of that.
00:26:49
It felt constrained and smothering, this need to conform
00:26:53
to a size of a AER and the shape of the canvas, until I
00:26:57
understood that it is part of the game.
00:27:00
It's like a game of cards whose combinations are incredibly vast
00:27:04
but contained by the rules of a game, which reduces the
00:27:07
possibilities but makes it far more enjoyable because it allows
00:27:13
you to have an effect on the outcome and also to let the
00:27:17
outcome effects you. Marina's exhibition at the El
00:27:22
Chico Gallery in Madrid is an all over installation where the
00:27:26
walls are completely covered with a painting with brown tree
00:27:30
trunks and a deep dark blue sky on one side and on the other a
00:27:35
brown red crepuscular atmosphere as if going from the beginning
00:27:40
to the end of the day. The floor is also painted in a
00:27:45
deep but sort of luminous blue with darker lines like rings in
00:27:49
a body of water, and there are also paintings on the floor.
00:27:55
Marina mentioned the reference to the history and fictional
00:27:59
narratives that we carry. But working from prints and
00:28:02
somehow stealing them, what impact does her technique and
00:28:07
Nuke's technique have on the past, how we see it and current
00:28:13
stories? What is drawing, then, if it is
00:28:17
so vast a field that it extends to engraving, photocopying,
00:28:23
performing a sort of discipline to actually see through the
00:28:28
hand? It's like a slow thinking
00:28:30
drawings, like thinking very slow.
00:28:33
You know, like, you wander around a page and sometimes,
00:28:39
like, for the kind of drawing that I do, which is like
00:28:42
expressionist, expressionist, material expressionist drawing,
00:28:47
sometimes people tend to believe that it's like because it's
00:28:50
gestural, it means it's fast, but it's not fast necessarily.
00:28:56
You know, why Fountain pain. Actually, yeah.
00:28:58
Maybe it has to do with some kind of tradition where you
00:29:02
learn. I don't know, but you know what
00:29:05
I mean. Yeah.
00:29:06
So The thing is that when I learn how to draw, it was
00:29:10
important that you couldn't correct the drones with this.
00:29:14
Like, you cannot erase it and make it back right again, you
00:29:20
know what I mean? So you could learn what was
00:29:24
wrong about the drawing. And so it has something very
00:29:29
emancipatory for me in this sense of like once the line is
00:29:34
done, it's done. That's it.
00:29:35
There's no correction. And it's very beautiful in the
00:29:38
sense of a practice is a kind of performative aspect.
00:29:45
Like once it's done, it's done. So that's it.
00:29:49
So you commit to the line and that's beautiful.
00:29:53
And then sometimes they are shitty drawings, you know,
00:29:55
that's also fine. Like you don't need to share
00:29:58
them all. You don't need.
00:29:59
Like, you can destroy them, that's fine.
00:30:02
Just calmly destroy them. I destroyed many drawings.
00:30:06
I had many, many bad ideas, you know, that didn't work.
00:30:10
I'm curious about the situations where the tools used come to us
00:30:15
unexpectedly and enter the studio or a particular project,
00:30:20
and this at the most unexpected of times.
00:30:26
My this is before we had children and Max was not my
00:30:30
husband, he was my partner. But he said to me you're working
00:30:33
too much, I have to take you away for a weekend to Wales.
00:30:36
And honestly it was a very busy time and I was like very
00:30:40
reluctant to go. And I was like, oh, I just want
00:30:42
to be in my studio. So he took me to this tiny
00:30:45
village in Wales, can't remember what it's called.
00:30:46
There was nothing there. And I entered this holiday, sell
00:30:50
imposed holiday quite reluctantly to be honest with
00:30:52
you. But anyway, when we were there
00:30:55
walking in this tiny town, there was this tiny shop cafe thing
00:30:59
and they had this tiny section with like 2 shelves and on there
00:31:03
with some art materials. And you know, I looked of course
00:31:07
and I found this, this pen which was really like a felt it brush
00:31:12
felt it. But this beautiful pen that came
00:31:15
from Japan, I have no idea why this tiny shop in Wales was
00:31:19
selling this pen. No idea.
00:31:22
Anyway, I picked it up and spent this little weekend drawing in
00:31:26
my sketchbook. And that went on to me starting
00:31:29
drawing with ink and experimenting with different
00:31:31
brushes. And I guess that's an example of
00:31:35
a time where it was really an object of material that led, you
00:31:40
know, to ideas within my practice and in a completely
00:31:44
unexpected, unlooked for kind of way.
00:31:48
And I think the lesson I learned from that holiday was that it's
00:31:51
actually good to get out because sometimes, you know, you're
00:31:54
exposed to influences you would never have expected, or you
00:31:57
encounter material you've never, you know, encountered before.
00:32:00
Well The thing is I did still end up drawing all weekends.
00:32:03
The joy of finding a new thing to work with is also the joy of
00:32:08
developing a new project, which is precisely what happened with
00:32:13
Marina. You can think about a drawing
00:32:17
that then you can exhibit or sell or just put it hanging
00:32:22
some, somewhere or like a drawing as an object.
00:32:27
And you can think of drawing as a as a, a thought to arrive to
00:32:33
something else. So like I've been, I've done
00:32:37
thousands and thousands of drawings in my life.
00:32:40
Bible is called a Bible for Lilith.
00:32:42
I can show you, but I have to, I have to go for it.
00:32:46
Just give me a SEC. It's very exciting to show the
00:32:56
Bible because I it's a very difficult object to show,
00:33:01
actually to exhibit, because how can you exhibit this?
00:33:05
But the the thing with this object that it started as a
00:33:09
mistake, as a failure in a way. Like my boyfriend said, it would
00:33:16
be great to have a sketchbook that pages are two things so I
00:33:22
can trace like I can see the next page.
00:33:28
So I thought, ah, for his birthday, I'm going to find like
00:33:31
this Bible paper that is so thin.
00:33:34
I'm going to find a book that is blank paper, but it's like this
00:33:38
Bible paper. So we can see what he has drawn
00:33:43
on the the prior drawing, you know, so you can see through.
00:33:47
And so I bought it for him as a present.
00:33:51
And then it was like super long because it came from China.
00:33:56
And by the time he received the present, he didn't remember this
00:34:00
idea anymore. So where he got it, he was like
00:34:03
a Bible. What the fuck are you giving
00:34:06
that? Like why?
00:34:07
You know, it's like, and then he was like so stupid because he
00:34:11
was coming from China. It got stopped at customs.
00:34:16
So then I we had to like cross the whole Berlin to pick this
00:34:20
shit up and then when he opened it like, Oh my present finally,
00:34:25
like, I don't know like 2 months delay of his birthday or
00:34:28
whatever, then he was like a pipe.
00:34:31
Why? You know, so it's just like, OK,
00:34:34
forget the so stupid, stupid, very stupid.
00:34:42
Like it turned completely. Ridiculous.
00:34:43
This that was for you. It was not fair.
00:34:46
Yeah, and aware of it. I I bought it for myself.
00:34:50
But anyways, I kept it in any case, anyways, that doesn't
00:34:57
matter. What matters is that I get it.
00:35:01
And it's like almost 500 drawings.
00:35:06
Yeah. So I spent a couple of years
00:35:09
doing this, you know, it has like, a golden spine, you know,
00:35:17
all these little thingies. It's a real Bible, you know.
00:35:22
And then I started, OK, I'm going to do some erotic drawings
00:35:25
here because, like, ha, ha, I'm very radical.
00:35:28
Whatever. And then at some point you
00:35:30
realize that you have to commit or you don't continue, you know,
00:35:34
but like at some point you decide if you are going to
00:35:37
really do 500 drawings or really no.
00:35:40
And then you stop now. But you know, but like to leave
00:35:44
it half is shit. So just like when did you commit
00:35:48
it or not? And I did, I committed.
00:35:53
Yeah. And so.
00:35:54
Yeah. So The thing is that like it
00:35:57
started, you know, you can see a bit of development.
00:36:00
OK, So Lilith is like the first woman of the Bible.
00:36:05
So in the Bible, like there is a sentence at the beginning of the
00:36:09
Genesis saying God grabs I, I don't know, I'm very phrasing,
00:36:14
of course, but God grab a piece of lamp, a lamp of clay and then
00:36:19
cut it in half. And then he was like creating
00:36:22
woman and a man. Because this is like pre
00:36:25
biblical texts, like Lily, this pre biblical texts.
00:36:32
So in like this, like versions, like Jewish versions of the
00:36:36
Genesis, some versions of the Bible kept this sentence, this
00:36:39
like very mysterious sentence, but it's like God created the
00:36:47
human bites image and look or something like that.
00:36:52
Female and male, he created them.
00:36:55
And then, yeah. So that that was the first idea
00:36:58
was like grab a lamp of clay, you cut it in half, you have a
00:37:04
woman and you have man. And then this man was Saddam,
00:37:08
this woman was Lilith, and Lilith was a rebel and she
00:37:14
wanted to fuck with on top. You know, it's that's what it
00:37:21
says in the stories to lead sex activity.
00:37:25
And Adam wanted to have a missionary position like a
00:37:30
regular. He wanted to be on top.
00:37:31
She wanted to be on top too. So they they have a fight of
00:37:36
power because Adam wants her to be a bit minor and then she
00:37:42
wants to be equal. So she runs away from heaven,
00:37:47
you know, from paradise, which is very funny.
00:37:50
It's a funny thing. Like she runs away from
00:37:52
paradise. Wasn't it the the best place to
00:37:56
be? It was like the best place to
00:37:58
be. No, she didn't want to be there.
00:38:01
Exactly. And so she runs away and she
00:38:06
goes to the Red Sea, and then she she starts to live there and
00:38:12
there's like a bunch of demons and she fucks them all.
00:38:15
And then she has tons of babies. They say.
00:38:19
Like, she has 100 babies a day. That's what it says in the
00:38:23
story. Yeah, she has something.
00:38:30
And so. So Adam gets bored and he tries
00:38:34
to confraternize with animals. That's what it says.
00:38:37
Really. I'm not with animals, with the
00:38:40
animals around to see if he can like get along and he of course,
00:38:46
he cannot find the comfort. And so he asked God to bring her
00:38:51
back. God sends for angels, I think,
00:38:57
to bring her back and then just go to to the Red Sea to bring
00:39:01
Lily back. She's super busy.
00:39:03
She moved on. She doesn't give a fuck about
00:39:05
Adam anymore. And then the the angels come to
00:39:09
pick her up and she's like, fuck you.
00:39:11
I'm not going, you know, I'm staying here.
00:39:14
So the the story says that the angels, they as a revenge, they
00:39:21
kill all her kids. And then because God cannot find
00:39:26
a solution for Lily to come back to the paradise, then she like
00:39:32
he thinks that OK, then let's make a woman but out of your
00:39:37
body. So it's a bit of a minor from
00:39:39
the birth. And then he creates Eva.
00:39:42
Time and dedication to a project come with the type of final
00:39:47
outcome 1 ends up creating. But if we invert this logic, it
00:39:52
may as well be that Marina found the state of completion which
00:39:56
could apply to such a no mistake kind of work.
00:40:01
On the other hand, her interest in the erotic, the body and sex
00:40:06
also found a place where it could exist.
00:40:08
I feel the responsibility of, yeah, I think it, I think art
00:40:13
can be very ethical or unethical because sex is a very, very
00:40:21
delicate subject indeed, because it's also like it can be very
00:40:26
aggressive for many, many people.
00:40:28
And you are making it visible and it's something that is
00:40:32
supposed to be in the intimate sphere, right?
00:40:37
And so, but then at the same time, because it's in the
00:40:42
intimate sphere, like for many decades it hasn't been talked
00:40:46
about. And then that has led many
00:40:49
people to dangerous situations because of lack of sex
00:40:54
education. But then at the same time, if
00:40:56
you're drawing it, you are like making it visible for everyone
00:40:59
to see. And that's very, it's so So
00:41:03
yeah, I'm responsible for that. And I understand too, you know,
00:41:08
like it can be highly pleasurable and highly dangerous
00:41:13
for many people. And at the same time also, you
00:41:16
know, like some like there is some connection between pleasure
00:41:19
and pain. I think that's interesting.
00:41:21
But then at the same time, I also understand that there are
00:41:24
some channels where you shouldn't be able to show sex
00:41:29
because you, you know, I don't want to be scrolling down
00:41:31
Instagram and then all of a sudden find an addiction like
00:41:34
boom on like a porno image. I don't want that either, you
00:41:38
know, like it has to be, it's very aggressive, you know, like
00:41:43
I'm not in the mood. Like why you're not asking about
00:41:46
it? Time for a short break to let
00:41:51
you into the exhibitionist studio.
00:41:54
Look around you. There is a computer, a good mic,
00:41:59
the software in the computer, which is a sort of virtual space
00:42:05
through which you and I meet with a time and space delay.
00:42:10
Then there are my books and two perfectly round Flintstones.
00:42:15
All the magic happens here. I've been talking to a
00:42:19
university whose students need placements and I could use some
00:42:24
assistance with production and research while also mentoring
00:42:30
the future professionals of the field.
00:42:34
But for that I have to pay them. And that's where you come in.
00:42:39
Do you know how much a membership costs?
00:42:43
A mere £25 a year. Which means that you pay £2 a
00:42:49
month, 25 lbs for a whole year when you buy a catalog.
00:42:56
That's the average price for one single book with two texts.
00:43:02
If you become a member of Exhibition Esters through a
00:43:05
platform called Sub Stack, you not only get to support
00:43:10
Exhibition Esters, but you also receive on average about 18 more
00:43:15
texts minimum that I will have written about many, many, many
00:43:21
fascinating topics of contemporary arts, philosophy of
00:43:25
art, and many other subjects. There's a little bonus that I
00:43:31
added, which is getting to ask me questions.
00:43:34
I'm very, very happy to do the research for you or to dig into
00:43:39
my little well of knowledge and put the information out there
00:43:43
for you. I can name you or you can be
00:43:46
anonymous, so you get to put me to work as long as the questions
00:43:51
and the prompts you give me within my abilities and the
00:43:57
research material available to me.
00:44:00
Otherwise, you can go to donor books in the description notes.
00:44:04
You can just donate one time, very, very small amounts.
00:44:09
That's what I do with Wikipedia once in a while.
00:44:12
I put some money in there because I use it almost daily
00:44:16
and I want to reward people who nourish me.
00:44:20
Thank you for spending some time with me here in my studio.
00:44:24
Thank you for considering this decent proposal.
00:44:28
On with the episode. This question of control,
00:44:33
controlling the space where images are, who sees them and
00:44:36
where, reverts back also to the freedom of creating and the
00:44:41
discipline of release and tension in creative processes.
00:44:45
Imagination must flow, but technique must shape it,
00:44:49
although not too much. Ideas must preside, but perhaps
00:44:54
not on the conscious level. Stories are present, but are
00:44:59
they at the start or at the end of the final outcome?
00:45:04
If you put some acetone onto a photocopier and you push it
00:45:07
around, you start seeing the pigments moving like dust.
00:45:11
So you can make little piles of dust or move it around.
00:45:15
And what I love about that is that it meets at that point
00:45:21
graphite, which is the other thing that I use and the other
00:45:25
tool that I use. And it means especially now
00:45:30
recently favorite castle has I've got them here, has created
00:45:35
these pit graphite mats so that they're making graphite pencils
00:45:39
now that don't reflect. So if you color with them,
00:45:42
they're very, very matte. My pencil a choice.
00:45:45
But these so this is very reflective.
00:45:47
This is not and basically these new pencils with toner carbon
00:45:54
powder, It's, it looks and feels like the same thing and now I
00:45:59
can blend them seamlessly. It's kind of like taking my work
00:46:03
in a slightly different, well, little bit of a different
00:46:07
direction because I can now rework photocopies and images
00:46:10
and you can't tell that I've reworked them because the
00:46:14
graphite, this graphite is very much like the carbon powder.
00:46:18
Part of why I find this process interesting because I am
00:46:21
actually taking, you know, prints mainly etchings really as
00:46:28
a reap. So basically reproduction on so
00:46:30
many levels. There is the original etching
00:46:34
that has been reproduced itself several times, usually to, you
00:46:38
know, to make additions. And then they have been
00:46:41
reproduced in art books. I have the arcs.
00:46:44
I then reproduce the reproductions of the
00:46:46
reproductions through a photocopier.
00:46:49
And what I'm interested in as well is the dilution of the
00:46:53
image through that process of reproduction.
00:46:57
And when you reproduce images, you know, in the final stages of
00:47:01
my stage on a photocopier, it is further diluted because
00:47:05
actually, you know, the photocopies transfer more or
00:47:08
less well. So some of them get distressed
00:47:11
or, you know, slightly damaged. But also, this is where the
00:47:16
acetone part is interesting because depending on many
00:47:21
factors, the acetone moves like transfers the toner, more or
00:47:27
less. So I had another moment of like,
00:47:29
oh, my goodness, it's not working.
00:47:30
Why? Because so I, I, you know, I
00:47:33
have moved to France partly because I have now a house with
00:47:36
a big barn that's going to be a great studio and we're working
00:47:39
on it. But for now it's very much an
00:47:42
empty barn with no heating. And, and last winter, you know,
00:47:46
me, I was like out there with my, you know, duffel coat making
00:47:50
and my transfers were not working.
00:47:53
And I was like, no, why are they not working?
00:47:57
Yeah, I know, not this again. And in the end I realized I came
00:48:03
to the conclusion after trying lots of different things that it
00:48:06
was actually that it was the acetone that's at a lower
00:48:10
temperature, basically under 10° acetone doesn't really work as
00:48:13
well. So the toner to transfer the
00:48:16
acetone needs to work be strong and it needs to be more than
00:48:18
10°, so. So all this to say that you know
00:48:23
when I am transferring the photocopies the image gets
00:48:28
altered and factors like the temperature on the day, the you
00:48:33
know how, how diluted or not the acetone is, what brush I use as
00:48:39
well, how hard I press. All of these things influence
00:48:43
the transfer of the image and to an extent over many years.
00:48:48
Now I control this. So I know if I use this type of
00:48:53
pressure on this type of image, photocopied at this, because you
00:48:58
know, on a photocopier you can alter how light or dark the
00:49:01
photocopy comes out. So I also play with this.
00:49:03
I've also always done very, very nearly hyper realistic graphite
00:49:08
drawings. So that's all about control, all
00:49:11
about control. This aspect, in contrast, the
00:49:14
fact that I can never thoroughly control, even though I've tried
00:49:18
for years, I never have control over the final transfer, is
00:49:22
actually a huge needing like a relief to me.
00:49:24
It makes the making exciting because I'm going to respond to
00:49:28
the transfer. Sometimes it does something I'd
00:49:31
never anticipated before. And then those marks, the
00:49:33
transfers, which I then draw over, they will inform the
00:49:38
drawing to an extent. So I'm responding to the
00:49:41
unpredictability of the transfer.
00:49:44
And I love that way of working. It's for me, it feels very
00:49:47
liberating. I would say, you know, that half
00:49:51
of my practice is, is too tight. And I think like, you know, when
00:49:55
drawings are too stiff or too in invertedcom is perfect or
00:50:00
trying, you know, hyper realism. I mean, this is not a criticism
00:50:03
of hyper realism. You know, I need to work that
00:50:06
way because it's partly how I learned to draw.
00:50:08
When I observe something really, really intensely, I understand
00:50:13
it. So for me, it's a necessary
00:50:16
exercise that I really enjoy the the drawing, you know, really
00:50:20
realistically, but it's extremely tight.
00:50:24
And I always, when I went that way, I'm always thinking, you
00:50:29
know, that's great. But actually you need to loosen
00:50:31
up. You need to let you know, I
00:50:34
always think of art in a scientific way.
00:50:36
You need space for experimentation because it's
00:50:39
when you experiment or you play that things you hadn't thought
00:50:42
about the car or you know, where you kind of get into that flow
00:50:46
state, sort of like, you know, things come to you, etcetera.
00:50:49
So all this to say that if tomorrow my photocopier breaks
00:50:54
down and that's it, I know that I would be already and I have
00:50:59
already started looking for another technique, method that
00:51:04
brings that element of unpredictability in in in the
00:51:09
transfer or in the way it works. I think an important part of the
00:51:13
process for me is thinking about how, you know, that whole
00:51:16
precious side of art making, especially in Europe, that the
00:51:20
etchings, you know, they're, they're like really laborious
00:51:24
art making techniques. And people thought I should try
00:51:27
etching and I might like it, but I actually didn't because it's
00:51:29
so like tight and, and laborious.
00:51:31
And I think, you know, there was this whole thing about these
00:51:35
like master print makers, you know, of the 18th century and
00:51:40
this kind of reverence to print. And I adore those artists.
00:51:45
I adore their prints. But a big part of the way I'm
00:51:49
working now and with a photocopier is being able to be
00:51:52
playful about those references, those images and those
00:51:56
techniques. And I think one of the, the main
00:51:59
things, and I've no answer to this, but that always kind of
00:52:02
results from, from this relationship that I have is
00:52:05
whether people think my work is print or not, because it's not
00:52:09
print in the sense there isn't this, you know, people will say,
00:52:12
but there's not that labor intensive side of it.
00:52:15
So I'm just transferring an image now.
00:52:17
I started referencing the artist whose work I'm appropriating so
00:52:20
that people know it's a deliberate wanted collaboration.
00:52:23
Not that I'm trying to kind of, you know, and also to bring that
00:52:26
artist, you know, to to new audiences.
00:52:29
I suppose realize that all the reference material that I have,
00:52:32
it's all male artists. And so I've been wanting to use
00:52:35
female print makers. When you are a female printer,
00:52:38
because it's like you are like carrying the weight of all the
00:52:41
tradition made by mail. I try and draw every day, even
00:52:47
after my kids are in bed or, or you know, and having those two
00:52:50
ways of working has allowed me to keep making at all times.
00:52:55
But it was already something I did anyway.
00:52:56
But it's been reinforced by, you know, having to keep making in
00:53:00
that sense. I think Jordan teaches you to
00:53:03
really see. It's hard to explain to people
00:53:06
what seeing really truly is. But you know, for example, you
00:53:10
know, go and draw water. And then when you look at water,
00:53:12
you will never see it the same way you see it in kind of areas
00:53:16
of light and dark, broken up movement.
00:53:18
And it just adds a lay. I don't know, I feel like I see
00:53:22
the world more intensely. If you study something and you
00:53:25
draw it, you then you know, it's like on a daily basis, even if
00:53:28
I'm not drawing from observation, when I look at
00:53:30
things, I feel like you know, you're, you're always sort of
00:53:33
deconstructing and trying to understand what you're actually
00:53:37
like seeing. It was fascinating listening to
00:53:40
such different artists with different experiences of
00:53:43
drawing, art making and exhibition spaces.
00:53:47
I'm surprised to see how observational drawing for them
00:53:51
is linked with seeing and how it pervades their day-to-day life.
00:53:58
What I mean by that, it's obviously if you observe and you
00:54:01
draw, it has to do with seeing, but there is a real dynamic
00:54:06
between having drawn and then seeing the world in a completely
00:54:11
different way. I connected a lot with Anuk,
00:54:16
saying that even when she's going about her life, she is
00:54:20
indeed seeing the world through potential drawings.
00:54:25
I'm always writing a story in my head, taking mental notes and
00:54:29
recording little segments. Recently, I spoke with a
00:54:32
multimedia artist who told me that his drawings didn't
00:54:36
translate his music or vice versa.
00:54:39
His notations, they came with it.
00:54:42
The more we expand our experiences and the arts, the
00:54:47
more we've carried and carry a wider and richer form of
00:54:51
engagement which we take to our lives and our actions.
00:54:55
Perhaps it doesn't make us better people, probably, but it
00:54:59
certainly seems to make us more disposed to engage with the
00:55:02
world, to wander and to be curious.
00:55:06
As for the characteristics of 21st century arts as opposed to
00:55:10
Raphael's time, I hope I brought some proximity between them
00:55:15
rather than radically separating them.
00:55:19
If you think about it, nothing has changed much since the caves
00:55:25
in. Here we are and what we take
00:55:27
from our technologies. As ever, it's a game of push and
00:55:31
pull, with perhaps now a more acute awareness of the danger in
00:55:37
the use of certain materials and the overpowering presence that
00:55:42
they have on the planets. Would this be the reason why
00:55:46
Marina and Anuke focus on the landscape and stories of the
00:55:50
past while subtly making them hybrid and near it?
00:55:54
And ambivalence? What I don't know what to make
00:55:58
of is the writing spectre that in a sense haunts their work.
00:56:04
It's probably just me projecting my own language onto their art,
00:56:08
but it did seem that the photocopier and the fountain pen
00:56:12
have that memory of the written and the distributed word.
00:56:16
What do you think? This is it.
00:56:20
I hope you enjoyed this new segment as much as I enjoyed
00:56:25
editing it, preparing it, researching it, and particularly
00:56:28
talking to the two artists, Anuk Mercier and Marina Roca DA, who
00:56:35
were so, so generous with their time.
00:56:38
And you are there. I hope you took something from
00:56:42
it. I'm really curious to know what
00:56:44
you thought of this episode. So leave a comment, send an
00:56:47
e-mail, sign up for the newsletter, follow us on
00:56:50
Instagram. There's so many ways to reach us
00:56:54
and to make suggestions. Tell us what you thought and
00:56:58
perhaps also share a few ideas that you may have had while
00:57:03
listening to the episode. Take care.
00:57:06
Have a good one. I'll see you in a couple of
00:57:08
weeks with another brand new episode.
00:57:12
Take Care.