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Hello, I'm Joanna Pionevis, creator and host of exhibition
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esters and this is the first episode of the segment My Art
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Tools, where I take you to two artists studios by asking a
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simple question which unexpectedly reveals quite a few
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secrets and stories from the creative source itself.
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And the sources in question are Anuk Mercier, an artist who is
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now based in France, but has lived many years in the UK and
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still teaches at UE Bristol. And Marina Rocardier, who is
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based in Madrid and has currently, at the time of
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recording and release of the episodes of the 3rd of October
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2025, an exhibition at the El Chico Gallery in her hometown,
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which we mentioned during the episode because the artists were
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interviewed in their studios and show a few things to the camera.
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This may be an episode you might want to watch on Spotify or
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YouTube, but the audio experience works too.
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If that's what you prefer, that's not a problem.
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If you want to know more about the artists, I would recommend
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going on Instagram and following exhibition esters, or even
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better, signing up to the newsletter to learn more about
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them and also to get the links and little gems that didn't make
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it to the episode there. For those who may not know, the
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exhibition Esters files are part of my page Joanna Pierre Nevis
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on Sub Stack. And I don't send informative
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newsletters because I really don't enjoy that.
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episode, it has to be for a better cause.
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Stack, or even Buy me a coffee. All those links are in the
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obviously you have the subscription button function at
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the top of the screen. I think you'll find it.
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Anyway, let's move on to the episode.
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Allow me to plead my case. What if I told you that the
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tools used by artists are absolutely fascinating and may
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hold the key to an understanding of their work from within?
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We create myths in art, right, Based on the images and
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documents we have at hand. Pollock with the drip paintings,
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for instance. But what if we looked closely at
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other practices and gestures? What if we paid attention?
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And also, what if you had someone who would bring these
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informations to you? And that's what I'm here for.
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Artists use unexpected tools or familiar ones in unexpected
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ways. I'm not looking for the
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spectacular here, although it might happen, but for the
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sensible shift that suddenly opens a panoramic view on a work
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of art or a whole body of work. But another thing that led me to
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think more intentionally about this topic was an exhibition at
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the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford dedicated to Raphael's drawings.
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When I went there, I expected to see a few sketches, and indeed
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the exhibition had exquisite works.
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But there weren't only sketches or projects.
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There were these sorts of screens, or what I now know to
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be called cartoons, with holes on the outline of the figures.
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And in fact, these cartoons are full size drawings used to
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transfer the structure or the composition of the figure,
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carefully tested and defined previously through drawing onto
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a wall or onto whatever surface the painting is going to be on
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by pouncing or tracing. So it means that those little
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holes, they were intentional. They were there for a purpose.
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The purpose was to then apply powdered charcoal or black chalk
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on the drawing so that the little dots would be marked on
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the surface to then be painted on.
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There was a table there with a display of all the tools that
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Raphael used. So when you think of painting,
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when you think of drawing, you think of pencil, you think of
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graphite, and you think of brushes and paints.
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And what the display included were colored chalks and charcoal
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metal points, which are rods of metal alloys, so gold, silver,
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copper or leads and leads that left microscopic particles on
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paper. And so the colour of the line
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would depend on the composition of the rod, pen and ink.
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He used the blind stylus, which was used to sort of try out
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different shapes without marking the paper and the compass, so a
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double pointed compass. So you can see there was a lot
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of precision. None of this is in the catalog,
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which I promptly bought because I really wanted to study that.
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And in my research for the episode, I noticed that only two
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articles mention in passing this display of tools in the
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exhibition, enumerating what I just told you and not what I
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have on my Instagram, because I took a picture of that display
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and I looked it up. Now this was in 2017.
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And then the picture I took, there's Reed pen and a fine
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brush. So of course this is not to
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criticize anyone here, but I do feel that we look at art more
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like historians and less like Tekken.
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Technologically savvy people with curious minds and who
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actually know how to handle stuff and can very quickly put
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ourselves in the minds of the people who are creating.
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Historians are obsessed with timelines and influences, which
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is funny to me, knowing how much artists lie about dates.
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So the Renaissance after all. When I left that exhibition, I
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thought associates imagination with science, chemistry with
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observation. But mostly, how silly.
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The myth of the artist painting from nothing and also to me at
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least, how uninspiring it's. You know, it's as if everything
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came from the inside, as if the artist didn't spend countless
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times adjusting the material to the imaginations, but also
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perhaps the imagination to the material.
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The precision of the transfer and the care in using a double
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pointed compass shows the importance of the final image,
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the painting The Italian Renaissance feels to me more
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cinema than free representation. It is more seductive than
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inspirational. And it's closer, bear with me,
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to the convincing power of deepfakes almost than the
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compulsions of surrealism. Especially when you know how the
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images are made, you look at them in a completely different
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way. So Anuk and I talked precisely
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about the playfulness of this dynamic between the tool and the
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image, the project, the making, and the outcome, before she told
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me what her favorite tool was. Drawing can be anything you have
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at hand really. And so, you know, often that is,
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you know, just buy her in a piece of paper or pencil, but it
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can be other things. You know, you can be out walking
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and it might be the soil under foot that you use with your
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fingers and mark of recording, even if your favorite tool is a
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graphite stick, is that the best tool for the project that you're
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working on today? Is it the best tool to translate
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the, you know, the object or the scene that you want to record?
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So I would say in terms of teaching, actually my approach
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is the opposite to having a favorite tool.
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Sometimes you have an idea and that is the foremost, you know,
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that's the first thing, that's the starting point.
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And then the tool you, you know, is there to support the idea and
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to make it come to life. But sometimes a tool will
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inspire an idea or will drive you towards a certain direction,
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which is why, again, if we talk in terms of teaching, but also
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applied to the studio practice playing is so important.
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Because if you only rely on ideas and you know, using tools
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to to make those ideas come true, you might actually miss
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out on something that is experimental that you wouldn't
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have planned. That really only stems from
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playing practice. It shows my fountain pain.
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And I think it's because it's very difficult to find the right
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one. There are thousands of them and
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it's a pretty expensive material, expensive tool.
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My husband, he gave it to me from a trip.
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He, well, I used to live in Berlin and then from a trip he
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did in Madrid, he went to the flea market here.
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And if you search for it, you will find this like stands with
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like really vintage boxes of thousands of these.
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And they are pretty, pretty cheap for what you can pay in
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the store. So he he was able to buy, I
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don't know, 5 or 6 for me to try them.
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And this is my favorite 1. So first of all, the looks, it's
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like a steelo pen, like black. It's plastic.
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Actually, I think it's like embedded like it's metal
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embedded into the plastic, which is a bit strange, you know, but
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it gives it like this look like this vintage look.
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So I I really like this one because of the strength of the
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point, you know, like sometimes you have to yeah, the tip
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sometimes bench for calligraphy are too hard for drawing.
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Like you can feel like the paper is scratching, you know, like
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like this feeling and that I don't like.
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I like it to have some flexibility in the tip.
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While ink is not so important for Marina, Anuk's choice is
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surprising as it is as much a tool as it is a material, but it
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has another component to it. Raphael could not have used it.
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As opposed to marinas fountain pen, which is very very close to
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the Renaissance materials, Anuk's choice of tool, which is
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also in some ways a material, is completely dependent upon 20th
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century technology of the machine.
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When you when you asked me this question, I thought immediately
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about toner. I always thought that it was
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just carbon powder, which is what it is.
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But yesterday, because I was like, I'd better double check
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that I'm right about this, I found out that it's actually
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these tiny particles of plastic coated in carbon powder.
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So I did not know that. So basically this we're talking
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about toner. So this is, you know, the toner,
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Carter, is that all of us have in in, you know, in used at some
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point. They're in most photocopiers.
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If you've been to what really any type of education, they are
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basically these little plastic particles coated in carbon
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powder that are then applied to paper using laser technology and
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there's an electric charge involved as well.
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And then it's burnt onto the paper.
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So the like the plastic particles melt and literally,
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you know, sort of cement the carbon powder onto the paper.
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So tono is literally those that carbon dust for many, many years
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I have used it and I never referenced it.
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So, you know, when people ask you, you know, whatever to list
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the materials of an artwork. For years, toner did not
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feature. I would just say acetone
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transfer, which is a transfer method that I used with acetone.
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And basically what happens in this transfer technique is that
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I use a toner photocopier. I apply the acetone to the back
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of the photocopy. The acetone repels the carbon
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powder and reprints it. So it transfers it back onto
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another piece of paper. So essentially it takes that
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carbon dust that's all over my my initial photocopy and it
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repels it and pushes the little particles onto the next piece of
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paper. Everything started from having
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an idea from, you know, 18th century landscapes and etchings
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in particular, being my, you know, predominant source of
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inspiration, let's say, and wanting to appropriate those
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references into my work. I remember this does not happen
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anymore because of health and safety.
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But when I was an art student on my foundation course, one way of
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introducing students very quickly to the notions of
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printmaking was to do acetone transfers.
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So I remembered that, you know, years ago, Foundation, I had
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tried this technique. I loved how immediate it was.
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You've got the photocopy, you transfer it and you know, 2
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seconds later you have your transfers.
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But it really came from, I had an image, I needed to transfer
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it. How do I do it?
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Go to the photocopy machine, photocopy, transfer and move on.
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And I think there's also something to do with photocopies
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are so familiar to all of us. They were very unprecious.
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We're not that far from the intricate processes that Raphael
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and other artists of the Renaissance used to work on
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their shapes, to copy them, to transfer them onto drawings,
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from drawings and then to the final piece.
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We're not that far away from a sort of a mechanic handling of
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the shape through a very, very trained hand.
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The artists of the Renaissance used mechanical copy of drawings
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that they were satisfied with, and why waste time making them
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over and over again? And why not keep them?
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And perhaps once they're transferred on to the final
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piece, maybe change them a little bit.
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And something to note as well is that that technique, you know,
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the pouncing technique, breaking little holes on an outline was
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used for tapestries, for example, to reproduce patterns
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of tapestries and other crafts. So there is also.
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This tension in the technique that is used to make.
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What we call, perhaps with a sense of grandeur, masterpieces.
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So in some ways it's really interesting to use 20th century
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tools in order to look at what was done in the past, play the
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anachronic game, and try to assess what we try to obtain
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through these tools that seem so distant and yet kind of produce
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the same thing, which is to extract images that already
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exist in order to make new ones. And so that really affects the
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idea we have of creation and of image making from a an artistic
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point of view, not from an entertainment point of view or
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from from a publicity and advertisement point of view, but
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really this area, this field of intense creativity, imagination,
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but also science and research and purpose and intentional
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experimentation. When looking at the work of both
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artists, you would not imagine the technical challenges that
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they both have, nor the physical engagement with the process.
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My first kind of, you know, Commission, which was to create
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an artwork for Bristol Museum. I basically, you know, I
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proposed my whole idea for the Commission, which would
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basically be to photocopy images from their collections to bring
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their collection back to life through a new artwork, which is,
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you know, a, a way of working which I adore, like plunging
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into history and looking at collection and, and, and really
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finding ways for the, you know, contemporary audiences to re
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engage with those, you know, artworks and artists and
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narratives. So, you know, it was really
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exciting for me to get an opportunity to work with a
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museum on this so I could pitch to my idea.
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And everyone agreed, Move forward was very excited.
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And at the time, even though I graduated, I did all my
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photocopying at the UE library. So I would sneak back in, even
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though I wasn't really allowed to, and I would photocopy, you
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know, and yes, apologies to UE if they're listening to this,
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this, I guess, you know, it sounds kind of crazy, but to me,
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an hour and a half of photocopying images is
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comparable to a painter going to an art shop and buying tubs of
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painting. It was my primary source
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material, right? And you can still see behind me.
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This is how I do. So I do lots of photocopies.
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Then I put them up on the wall. So I see the images and then
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I'll select areas of them, cut them out and then transfer them.
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And on this occasion, which felt to me like the most important
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time, you know, finally had a Commission for a museum, I got
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to the library, did all my photocopying, go back to the
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studio, sat down, started to make and it didn't work.
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It just didn't work. So the photocopies that I had
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made, I did everything as usual, used the acetone and nothing
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happened. So obviously utter panic.
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And then I spent a day going around Bristol in all different
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shops doing different photocopies to see if it was the
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photocopier that was different. And all of, you know, just tried
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lots of different things and I, I just couldn't make it work
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anymore. I ended up actually contacting
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the photocopying machine producers, I can't remember who
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it was. And a very helpful person
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explained to me. That it's because the technology
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was advancing and they were now burning the toner and so burning
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the carbon powder at much higher temperatures onto the paper,
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which to them was great because I don't know if you remember
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this from holding for copious you used to have black fingers
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afterwards and that was the toner powder coming off on your
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hands. So for them, increasing the
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temperature meant there was no more staining of fingers, but it
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also more durable, you know, just better quality all around.
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So basically he said to me, you know, we're going around
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replacing all of the photocopiers so that now they
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burn at much high temperature. So your technique isn't going to
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work anymore. The only way to resolve this is
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that I then did lots of research, spoke to the guys at,
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you know, the various printer companies, printer
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manufacturers, and identified a model that still use toner at
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the temperature I needed. And I bought the photocopier and
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it's in my studio and I still have it today.
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And they still luckily make those toner cartridges further
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for that photocopier. All this to say, I am so not a
00:21:17
geeky person. This makes me sound like, you
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know, I'm really into understanding technology and
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actually I'm really not that kind of person.
00:21:23
But the technology I was using has forced me to become a bit of
00:21:28
a photocopier geek and a toner geek.
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And from that day on, I started listing toner as a medium
00:21:38
because I was like, it's a very real thing.
00:21:41
Drawing is a much more complex affair when it comes to tools,
00:21:44
but also the body, or perhaps I should say when it comes to the
00:21:48
relation between the body and whatever is used to make the
00:21:53
image or the final artwork. I have a lot of anxiety with
00:21:59
with my hands, you know, like I am all the time like needing to
00:22:03
do something. Like if I'm in a bar, I'm like
00:22:07
squeezing a little napkin or like a piece of paper or like
00:22:11
doing something while I talk. And yeah, and it's very common
00:22:16
that I am touching the lid while I'm drawing.
00:22:20
So for me, drawing is something of like, it's an activity
00:22:24
related with this, right? Drawing in a way, there are no
00:22:28
mistakes. But at the beginning when you
00:22:30
Start learning, there's a lot of mistakes, you know, so you learn
00:22:34
to spot them and to really realize if you want to keep them
00:22:39
or not, you know, and in a ways like beforehand.
00:22:42
So I would say a mistake in a drawing done now for me would be
00:22:52
that is like out of composition for like for me, composition is
00:22:55
like, is my, is my problem, You know, because I think, yeah, I,
00:23:01
I tend to be very expansive. And so I, I approach too much to
00:23:06
the borders. Sometimes I, I don't leave space
00:23:10
to continue, you know, like I just like, I expand and expand.
00:23:16
I would need more paper, but then like, but the paper is
00:23:19
limited. That's like what constitutes
00:23:21
A-frame. Like you have to assume the
00:23:23
frame before you start. It's a rule.
00:23:25
It's a rule from the substance of the material you're using.
00:23:30
It's like like you cannot assume an infinite frame like an
00:23:36
infinite paper. Like you have to assume the
00:23:39
borders of the paper because then at some point you get out
00:23:42
of the paper, you know, like you're painting on the table at
00:23:47
some point. So it's like it's a given, I
00:23:49
think. And, but it's more like the
00:23:53
relationship with the thing I'm drawing.
00:23:55
Like for example, if I'm planning to draw a figure in a
00:23:59
landscape and then I start to, with the fountain pain, I start
00:24:04
from, I don't know the head of the figure.
00:24:06
Normally I do it too big, then the landscape is not fitting in.
00:24:12
That's my problem. I would need more paper around
00:24:16
and then I would expand the drawing and then I would add
00:24:18
more paper around and spend the drawing and more paper.
00:24:21
And then it's like it's impossible.
00:24:23
Like no, no, you have to contain it.
00:24:25
Like it's important. The frame is the most important,
00:24:29
you know, And with drawing, I think it's more this fact is
00:24:35
very obvious in the sense that for me, a drawing is something
00:24:40
like the paper is just a support.
00:24:43
But you could actually remove that support and put a black one
00:24:48
or a yellow one and another any other color, any other coloring
00:24:52
of paper. And you could still rise up the
00:24:55
drawing like as if it was like a wire, you know, in I want a
00:25:01
void. But it's also like it's a, it's
00:25:03
a way of seeing, you know, like with your eyes.
00:25:06
It's a way of using your eyes while you're drawing.
00:25:09
I think it's a yeah, Yeah. Like drawing has that like this
00:25:13
flattening of reality and then you the paper is assumed.
00:25:18
But it could be any other paper or any other material, or it
00:25:21
could be a wall, or it could be directly the frame, and then you
00:25:26
draw on a board of the frame. I'm a painter.
00:25:30
I'm a Flat Earth, you know, like the frame is the paint is the
00:25:34
painting. Damn it.
00:25:40
No, of course I'm joking, but it's for me the painting is a
00:25:49
frame actually. That's like the frame of
00:25:52
reference, like on the format. That's also why my exhibition
00:25:56
now that is like an installation instead of just white cube and
00:26:00
paintings on top. Because in a way I think every
00:26:05
painter or every draft man needs to assume the frame, but this
00:26:11
also desire to get out of the frame.
00:26:13
And so for me, like the effect of the white cube on on
00:26:18
paintings in a painting exhibition is the same as the
00:26:22
effect of the paper on a drawing.
00:26:25
It's just the support. And you assume it, you don't
00:26:28
think about it. And it could be another 1 you
00:26:30
could change, exchange it for another one, you know.
00:26:36
So what I'm doing is like covering the whole all walls and
00:26:40
like braking on the white cube. Yeah.
00:26:44
And then I'm putting the paintings on top of that.
00:26:49
It felt constrained and smothering, this need to conform
00:26:53
to a size of a AER and the shape of the canvas, until I
00:26:57
understood that it is part of the game.
00:27:00
It's like a game of cards whose combinations are incredibly vast
00:27:04
but contained by the rules of a game, which reduces the
00:27:07
possibilities but makes it far more enjoyable because it allows
00:27:13
you to have an effect on the outcome and also to let the
00:27:17
outcome effects you. Marina's exhibition at the El
00:27:22
Chico Gallery in Madrid is an all over installation where the
00:27:26
walls are completely covered with a painting with brown tree
00:27:30
trunks and a deep dark blue sky on one side and on the other a
00:27:35
brown red crepuscular atmosphere as if going from the beginning
00:27:40
to the end of the day. The floor is also painted in a
00:27:45
deep but sort of luminous blue with darker lines like rings in
00:27:49
a body of water, and there are also paintings on the floor.
00:27:55
Marina mentioned the reference to the history and fictional
00:27:59
narratives that we carry. But working from prints and
00:28:02
somehow stealing them, what impact does her technique and
00:28:07
Nuke's technique have on the past, how we see it and current
00:28:13
stories? What is drawing, then, if it is
00:28:17
so vast a field that it extends to engraving, photocopying,
00:28:23
performing a sort of discipline to actually see through the
00:28:28
hand? It's like a slow thinking
00:28:30
drawings, like thinking very slow.
00:28:33
You know, like, you wander around a page and sometimes,
00:28:39
like, for the kind of drawing that I do, which is like
00:28:42
expressionist, expressionist, material expressionist drawing,
00:28:47
sometimes people tend to believe that it's like because it's
00:28:50
gestural, it means it's fast, but it's not fast necessarily.
00:28:56
You know, why Fountain pain. Actually, yeah.
00:28:58
Maybe it has to do with some kind of tradition where you
00:29:02
learn. I don't know, but you know what
00:29:05
I mean. Yeah.
00:29:06
So The thing is that when I learn how to draw, it was
00:29:10
important that you couldn't correct the drones with this.
00:29:14
Like, you cannot erase it and make it back right again, you
00:29:20
know what I mean? So you could learn what was
00:29:24
wrong about the drawing. And so it has something very
00:29:29
emancipatory for me in this sense of like once the line is
00:29:34
done, it's done. That's it.
00:29:35
There's no correction. And it's very beautiful in the
00:29:38
sense of a practice is a kind of performative aspect.
00:29:45
Like once it's done, it's done. So that's it.
00:29:49
So you commit to the line and that's beautiful.
00:29:53
And then sometimes they are shitty drawings, you know,
00:29:55
that's also fine. Like you don't need to share
00:29:58
them all. You don't need.
00:29:59
Like, you can destroy them, that's fine.
00:30:02
Just calmly destroy them. I destroyed many drawings.
00:30:06
I had many, many bad ideas, you know, that didn't work.
00:30:10
I'm curious about the situations where the tools used come to us
00:30:15
unexpectedly and enter the studio or a particular project,
00:30:20
and this at the most unexpected of times.
00:30:26
My this is before we had children and Max was not my
00:30:30
husband, he was my partner. But he said to me you're working
00:30:33
too much, I have to take you away for a weekend to Wales.
00:30:36
And honestly it was a very busy time and I was like very
00:30:40
reluctant to go. And I was like, oh, I just want
00:30:42
to be in my studio. So he took me to this tiny
00:30:45
village in Wales, can't remember what it's called.
00:30:46
There was nothing there. And I entered this holiday, sell
00:30:50
imposed holiday quite reluctantly to be honest with
00:30:52
you. But anyway, when we were there
00:30:55
walking in this tiny town, there was this tiny shop cafe thing
00:30:59
and they had this tiny section with like 2 shelves and on there
00:31:03
with some art materials. And you know, I looked of course
00:31:07
and I found this, this pen which was really like a felt it brush
00:31:12
felt it. But this beautiful pen that came
00:31:15
from Japan, I have no idea why this tiny shop in Wales was
00:31:19
selling this pen. No idea.
00:31:22
Anyway, I picked it up and spent this little weekend drawing in
00:31:26
my sketchbook. And that went on to me starting
00:31:29
drawing with ink and experimenting with different
00:31:31
brushes. And I guess that's an example of
00:31:35
a time where it was really an object of material that led, you
00:31:40
know, to ideas within my practice and in a completely
00:31:44
unexpected, unlooked for kind of way.
00:31:48
And I think the lesson I learned from that holiday was that it's
00:31:51
actually good to get out because sometimes, you know, you're
00:31:54
exposed to influences you would never have expected, or you
00:31:57
encounter material you've never, you know, encountered before.
00:32:00
Well The thing is I did still end up drawing all weekends.
00:32:03
The joy of finding a new thing to work with is also the joy of
00:32:08
developing a new project, which is precisely what happened with
00:32:13
Marina. You can think about a drawing
00:32:17
that then you can exhibit or sell or just put it hanging
00:32:22
some, somewhere or like a drawing as an object.
00:32:27
And you can think of drawing as a as a, a thought to arrive to
00:32:33
something else. So like I've been, I've done
00:32:37
thousands and thousands of drawings in my life.
00:32:40
Bible is called a Bible for Lilith.
00:32:42
I can show you, but I have to, I have to go for it.
00:32:46
Just give me a SEC. It's very exciting to show the
00:32:56
Bible because I it's a very difficult object to show,
00:33:01
actually to exhibit, because how can you exhibit this?
00:33:05
But the the thing with this object that it started as a
00:33:09
mistake, as a failure in a way. Like my boyfriend said, it would
00:33:16
be great to have a sketchbook that pages are two things so I
00:33:22
can trace like I can see the next page.
00:33:28
So I thought, ah, for his birthday, I'm going to find like
00:33:31
this Bible paper that is so thin.
00:33:34
I'm going to find a book that is blank paper, but it's like this
00:33:38
Bible paper. So we can see what he has drawn
00:33:43
on the the prior drawing, you know, so you can see through.
00:33:47
And so I bought it for him as a present.
00:33:51
And then it was like super long because it came from China.
00:33:56
And by the time he received the present, he didn't remember this
00:34:00
idea anymore. So where he got it, he was like
00:34:03
a Bible. What the fuck are you giving
00:34:06
that? Like why?
00:34:07
You know, it's like, and then he was like so stupid because he
00:34:11
was coming from China. It got stopped at customs.
00:34:16
So then I we had to like cross the whole Berlin to pick this
00:34:20
shit up and then when he opened it like, Oh my present finally,
00:34:25
like, I don't know like 2 months delay of his birthday or
00:34:28
whatever, then he was like a pipe.
00:34:31
Why? You know, so it's just like, OK,
00:34:34
forget the so stupid, stupid, very stupid.
00:34:42
Like it turned completely. Ridiculous.
00:34:43
This that was for you. It was not fair.
00:34:46
Yeah, and aware of it. I I bought it for myself.
00:34:50
But anyways, I kept it in any case, anyways, that doesn't
00:34:57
matter. What matters is that I get it.
00:35:01
And it's like almost 500 drawings.
00:35:06
Yeah. So I spent a couple of years
00:35:09
doing this, you know, it has like, a golden spine, you know,
00:35:17
all these little thingies. It's a real Bible, you know.
00:35:22
And then I started, OK, I'm going to do some erotic drawings
00:35:25
here because, like, ha, ha, I'm very radical.
00:35:28
Whatever. And then at some point you
00:35:30
realize that you have to commit or you don't continue, you know,
00:35:34
but like at some point you decide if you are going to
00:35:37
really do 500 drawings or really no.
00:35:40
And then you stop now. But you know, but like to leave
00:35:44
it half is shit. So just like when did you commit
00:35:48
it or not? And I did, I committed.
00:35:53
Yeah. And so.
00:35:54
Yeah. So The thing is that like it
00:35:57
started, you know, you can see a bit of development.
00:36:00
OK, So Lilith is like the first woman of the Bible.
00:36:05
So in the Bible, like there is a sentence at the beginning of the
00:36:09
Genesis saying God grabs I, I don't know, I'm very phrasing,
00:36:14
of course, but God grab a piece of lamp, a lamp of clay and then
00:36:19
cut it in half. And then he was like creating
00:36:22
woman and a man. Because this is like pre
00:36:25
biblical texts, like Lily, this pre biblical texts.
00:36:32
So in like this, like versions, like Jewish versions of the
00:36:36
Genesis, some versions of the Bible kept this sentence, this
00:36:39
like very mysterious sentence, but it's like God created the
00:36:47
human bites image and look or something like that.
00:36:52
Female and male, he created them.
00:36:55
And then, yeah. So that that was the first idea
00:36:58
was like grab a lamp of clay, you cut it in half, you have a
00:37:04
woman and you have man. And then this man was Saddam,
00:37:08
this woman was Lilith, and Lilith was a rebel and she
00:37:14
wanted to fuck with on top. You know, it's that's what it
00:37:21
says in the stories to lead sex activity.
00:37:25
And Adam wanted to have a missionary position like a
00:37:30
regular. He wanted to be on top.
00:37:31
She wanted to be on top too. So they they have a fight of
00:37:36
power because Adam wants her to be a bit minor and then she
00:37:42
wants to be equal. So she runs away from heaven,
00:37:47
you know, from paradise, which is very funny.
00:37:50
It's a funny thing. Like she runs away from
00:37:52
paradise. Wasn't it the the best place to
00:37:56
be? It was like the best place to
00:37:58
be. No, she didn't want to be there.
00:38:01
Exactly. And so she runs away and she
00:38:06
goes to the Red Sea, and then she she starts to live there and
00:38:12
there's like a bunch of demons and she fucks them all.
00:38:15
And then she has tons of babies. They say.
00:38:19
Like, she has 100 babies a day. That's what it says in the
00:38:23
story. Yeah, she has something.
00:38:30
And so. So Adam gets bored and he tries
00:38:34
to confraternize with animals. That's what it says.
00:38:37
Really. I'm not with animals, with the
00:38:40
animals around to see if he can like get along and he of course,
00:38:46
he cannot find the comfort. And so he asked God to bring her
00:38:51
back. God sends for angels, I think,
00:38:57
to bring her back and then just go to to the Red Sea to bring
00:39:01
Lily back. She's super busy.
00:39:03
She moved on. She doesn't give a fuck about
00:39:05
Adam anymore. And then the the angels come to
00:39:09
pick her up and she's like, fuck you.
00:39:11
I'm not going, you know, I'm staying here.
00:39:14
So the the story says that the angels, they as a revenge, they
00:39:21
kill all her kids. And then because God cannot find
00:39:26
a solution for Lily to come back to the paradise, then she like
00:39:32
he thinks that OK, then let's make a woman but out of your
00:39:37
body. So it's a bit of a minor from
00:39:39
the birth. And then he creates Eva.
00:39:42
Time and dedication to a project come with the type of final
00:39:47
outcome 1 ends up creating. But if we invert this logic, it
00:39:52
may as well be that Marina found the state of completion which
00:39:56
could apply to such a no mistake kind of work.
00:40:01
On the other hand, her interest in the erotic, the body and sex
00:40:06
also found a place where it could exist.
00:40:08
I feel the responsibility of, yeah, I think it, I think art
00:40:13
can be very ethical or unethical because sex is a very, very
00:40:21
delicate subject indeed, because it's also like it can be very
00:40:26
aggressive for many, many people.
00:40:28
And you are making it visible and it's something that is
00:40:32
supposed to be in the intimate sphere, right?
00:40:37
And so, but then at the same time, because it's in the
00:40:42
intimate sphere, like for many decades it hasn't been talked
00:40:46
about. And then that has led many
00:40:49
people to dangerous situations because of lack of sex
00:40:54
education. But then at the same time, if
00:40:56
you're drawing it, you are like making it visible for everyone
00:40:59
to see. And that's very, it's so So
00:41:03
yeah, I'm responsible for that. And I understand too, you know,
00:41:08
like it can be highly pleasurable and highly dangerous
00:41:13
for many people. And at the same time also, you
00:41:16
know, like some like there is some connection between pleasure
00:41:19
and pain. I think that's interesting.
00:41:21
But then at the same time, I also understand that there are
00:41:24
some channels where you shouldn't be able to show sex
00:41:29
because you, you know, I don't want to be scrolling down
00:41:31
Instagram and then all of a sudden find an addiction like
00:41:34
boom on like a porno image. I don't want that either, you
00:41:38
know, like it has to be, it's very aggressive, you know, like
00:41:43
I'm not in the mood. Like why you're not asking about
00:41:46
it? Time for a short break to let
00:41:51
you into the exhibitionist studio.
00:41:54
Look around you. There is a computer, a good mic,
00:41:59
the software in the computer, which is a sort of virtual space
00:42:05
through which you and I meet with a time and space delay.
00:42:10
Then there are my books and two perfectly round Flintstones.
00:42:15
All the magic happens here. I've been talking to a
00:42:19
university whose students need placements and I could use some
00:42:24
assistance with production and research while also mentoring
00:42:30
the future professionals of the field.
00:42:34
But for that I have to pay them. And that's where you come in.
00:42:39
Do you know how much a membership costs?
00:42:43
A mere £25 a year. Which means that you pay £2 a
00:42:49
month, 25 lbs for a whole year when you buy a catalog.
00:42:56
That's the average price for one single book with two texts.
00:43:02
If you become a member of Exhibition Esters through a
00:43:05
platform called Sub Stack, you not only get to support
00:43:10
Exhibition Esters, but you also receive on average about 18 more
00:43:15
texts minimum that I will have written about many, many, many
00:43:21
fascinating topics of contemporary arts, philosophy of
00:43:25
art, and many other subjects. There's a little bonus that I
00:43:31
added, which is getting to ask me questions.
00:43:34
I'm very, very happy to do the research for you or to dig into
00:43:39
my little well of knowledge and put the information out there
00:43:43
for you. I can name you or you can be
00:43:46
anonymous, so you get to put me to work as long as the questions
00:43:51
and the prompts you give me within my abilities and the
00:43:57
research material available to me.
00:44:00
Otherwise, you can go to donor books in the description notes.
00:44:04
You can just donate one time, very, very small amounts.
00:44:09
That's what I do with Wikipedia once in a while.
00:44:12
I put some money in there because I use it almost daily
00:44:16
and I want to reward people who nourish me.
00:44:20
Thank you for spending some time with me here in my studio.
00:44:24
Thank you for considering this decent proposal.
00:44:28
On with the episode. This question of control,
00:44:33
controlling the space where images are, who sees them and
00:44:36
where, reverts back also to the freedom of creating and the
00:44:41
discipline of release and tension in creative processes.
00:44:45
Imagination must flow, but technique must shape it,
00:44:49
although not too much. Ideas must preside, but perhaps
00:44:54
not on the conscious level. Stories are present, but are
00:44:59
they at the start or at the end of the final outcome?
00:45:04
If you put some acetone onto a photocopier and you push it
00:45:07
around, you start seeing the pigments moving like dust.
00:45:11
So you can make little piles of dust or move it around.
00:45:15
And what I love about that is that it meets at that point
00:45:21
graphite, which is the other thing that I use and the other
00:45:25
tool that I use. And it means especially now
00:45:30
recently favorite castle has I've got them here, has created
00:45:35
these pit graphite mats so that they're making graphite pencils
00:45:39
now that don't reflect. So if you color with them,
00:45:42
they're very, very matte. My pencil a choice.
00:45:45
But these so this is very reflective.
00:45:47
This is not and basically these new pencils with toner carbon
00:45:54
powder, It's, it looks and feels like the same thing and now I
00:45:59
can blend them seamlessly. It's kind of like taking my work
00:46:03
in a slightly different, well, little bit of a different
00:46:07
direction because I can now rework photocopies and images
00:46:10
and you can't tell that I've reworked them because the
00:46:14
graphite, this graphite is very much like the carbon powder.
00:46:18
Part of why I find this process interesting because I am
00:46:21
actually taking, you know, prints mainly etchings really as
00:46:28
a reap. So basically reproduction on so
00:46:30
many levels. There is the original etching
00:46:34
that has been reproduced itself several times, usually to, you
00:46:38
know, to make additions. And then they have been
00:46:41
reproduced in art books. I have the arcs.
00:46:44
I then reproduce the reproductions of the
00:46:46
reproductions through a photocopier.
00:46:49
And what I'm interested in as well is the dilution of the
00:46:53
image through that process of reproduction.
00:46:57
And when you reproduce images, you know, in the final stages of
00:47:01
my stage on a photocopier, it is further diluted because
00:47:05
actually, you know, the photocopies transfer more or
00:47:08
less well. So some of them get distressed
00:47:11
or, you know, slightly damaged. But also, this is where the
00:47:16
acetone part is interesting because depending on many
00:47:21
factors, the acetone moves like transfers the toner, more or
00:47:27
less. So I had another moment of like,
00:47:29
oh, my goodness, it's not working.
00:47:30
Why? Because so I, I, you know, I
00:47:33
have moved to France partly because I have now a house with
00:47:36
a big barn that's going to be a great studio and we're working
00:47:39
on it. But for now it's very much an
00:47:42
empty barn with no heating. And, and last winter, you know,
00:47:46
me, I was like out there with my, you know, duffel coat making
00:47:50
and my transfers were not working.
00:47:53
And I was like, no, why are they not working?
00:47:57
Yeah, I know, not this again. And in the end I realized I came
00:48:03
to the conclusion after trying lots of different things that it
00:48:06
was actually that it was the acetone that's at a lower
00:48:10
temperature, basically under 10° acetone doesn't really work as
00:48:13
well. So the toner to transfer the
00:48:16
acetone needs to work be strong and it needs to be more than
00:48:18
10°, so. So all this to say that you know
00:48:23
when I am transferring the photocopies the image gets
00:48:28
altered and factors like the temperature on the day, the you
00:48:33
know how, how diluted or not the acetone is, what brush I use as
00:48:39
well, how hard I press. All of these things influence
00:48:43
the transfer of the image and to an extent over many years.
00:48:48
Now I control this. So I know if I use this type of
00:48:53
pressure on this type of image, photocopied at this, because you
00:48:58
know, on a photocopier you can alter how light or dark the
00:49:01
photocopy comes out. So I also play with this.
00:49:03
I've also always done very, very nearly hyper realistic graphite
00:49:08
drawings. So that's all about control, all
00:49:11
about control. This aspect, in contrast, the
00:49:14
fact that I can never thoroughly control, even though I've tried
00:49:18
for years, I never have control over the final transfer, is
00:49:22
actually a huge needing like a relief to me.
00:49:24
It makes the making exciting because I'm going to respond to
00:49:28
the transfer. Sometimes it does something I'd
00:49:31
never anticipated before. And then those marks, the
00:49:33
transfers, which I then draw over, they will inform the
00:49:38
drawing to an extent. So I'm responding to the
00:49:41
unpredictability of the transfer.
00:49:44
And I love that way of working. It's for me, it feels very
00:49:47
liberating. I would say, you know, that half
00:49:51
of my practice is, is too tight. And I think like, you know, when
00:49:55
drawings are too stiff or too in invertedcom is perfect or
00:50:00
trying, you know, hyper realism. I mean, this is not a criticism
00:50:03
of hyper realism. You know, I need to work that
00:50:06
way because it's partly how I learned to draw.
00:50:08
When I observe something really, really intensely, I understand
00:50:13
it. So for me, it's a necessary
00:50:16
exercise that I really enjoy the the drawing, you know, really
00:50:20
realistically, but it's extremely tight.
00:50:24
And I always, when I went that way, I'm always thinking, you
00:50:29
know, that's great. But actually you need to loosen
00:50:31
up. You need to let you know, I
00:50:34
always think of art in a scientific way.
00:50:36
You need space for experimentation because it's
00:50:39
when you experiment or you play that things you hadn't thought
00:50:42
about the car or you know, where you kind of get into that flow
00:50:46
state, sort of like, you know, things come to you, etcetera.
00:50:49
So all this to say that if tomorrow my photocopier breaks
00:50:54
down and that's it, I know that I would be already and I have
00:50:59
already started looking for another technique, method that
00:51:04
brings that element of unpredictability in in in the
00:51:09
transfer or in the way it works. I think an important part of the
00:51:13
process for me is thinking about how, you know, that whole
00:51:16
precious side of art making, especially in Europe, that the
00:51:20
etchings, you know, they're, they're like really laborious
00:51:24
art making techniques. And people thought I should try
00:51:27
etching and I might like it, but I actually didn't because it's
00:51:29
so like tight and, and laborious.
00:51:31
And I think, you know, there was this whole thing about these
00:51:35
like master print makers, you know, of the 18th century and
00:51:40
this kind of reverence to print. And I adore those artists.
00:51:45
I adore their prints. But a big part of the way I'm
00:51:49
working now and with a photocopier is being able to be
00:51:52
playful about those references, those images and those
00:51:56
techniques. And I think one of the, the main
00:51:59
things, and I've no answer to this, but that always kind of
00:52:02
results from, from this relationship that I have is
00:52:05
whether people think my work is print or not, because it's not
00:52:09
print in the sense there isn't this, you know, people will say,
00:52:12
but there's not that labor intensive side of it.
00:52:15
So I'm just transferring an image now.
00:52:17
I started referencing the artist whose work I'm appropriating so
00:52:20
that people know it's a deliberate wanted collaboration.
00:52:23
Not that I'm trying to kind of, you know, and also to bring that
00:52:26
artist, you know, to to new audiences.
00:52:29
I suppose realize that all the reference material that I have,
00:52:32
it's all male artists. And so I've been wanting to use
00:52:35
female print makers. When you are a female printer,
00:52:38
because it's like you are like carrying the weight of all the
00:52:41
tradition made by mail. I try and draw every day, even
00:52:47
after my kids are in bed or, or you know, and having those two
00:52:50
ways of working has allowed me to keep making at all times.
00:52:55
But it was already something I did anyway.
00:52:56
But it's been reinforced by, you know, having to keep making in
00:53:00
that sense. I think Jordan teaches you to
00:53:03
really see. It's hard to explain to people
00:53:06
what seeing really truly is. But you know, for example, you
00:53:10
know, go and draw water. And then when you look at water,
00:53:12
you will never see it the same way you see it in kind of areas
00:53:16
of light and dark, broken up movement.
00:53:18
And it just adds a lay. I don't know, I feel like I see
00:53:22
the world more intensely. If you study something and you
00:53:25
draw it, you then you know, it's like on a daily basis, even if
00:53:28
I'm not drawing from observation, when I look at
00:53:30
things, I feel like you know, you're, you're always sort of
00:53:33
deconstructing and trying to understand what you're actually
00:53:37
like seeing. It was fascinating listening to
00:53:40
such different artists with different experiences of
00:53:43
drawing, art making and exhibition spaces.
00:53:47
I'm surprised to see how observational drawing for them
00:53:51
is linked with seeing and how it pervades their day-to-day life.
00:53:58
What I mean by that, it's obviously if you observe and you
00:54:01
draw, it has to do with seeing, but there is a real dynamic
00:54:06
between having drawn and then seeing the world in a completely
00:54:11
different way. I connected a lot with Anuk,
00:54:16
saying that even when she's going about her life, she is
00:54:20
indeed seeing the world through potential drawings.
00:54:25
I'm always writing a story in my head, taking mental notes and
00:54:29
recording little segments. Recently, I spoke with a
00:54:32
multimedia artist who told me that his drawings didn't
00:54:36
translate his music or vice versa.
00:54:39
His notations, they came with it.
00:54:42
The more we expand our experiences and the arts, the
00:54:47
more we've carried and carry a wider and richer form of
00:54:51
engagement which we take to our lives and our actions.
00:54:55
Perhaps it doesn't make us better people, probably, but it
00:54:59
certainly seems to make us more disposed to engage with the
00:55:02
world, to wander and to be curious.
00:55:06
As for the characteristics of 21st century arts as opposed to
00:55:10
Raphael's time, I hope I brought some proximity between them
00:55:15
rather than radically separating them.
00:55:19
If you think about it, nothing has changed much since the caves
00:55:25
in. Here we are and what we take
00:55:27
from our technologies. As ever, it's a game of push and
00:55:31
pull, with perhaps now a more acute awareness of the danger in
00:55:37
the use of certain materials and the overpowering presence that
00:55:42
they have on the planets. Would this be the reason why
00:55:46
Marina and Anuke focus on the landscape and stories of the
00:55:50
past while subtly making them hybrid and near it?
00:55:54
And ambivalence? What I don't know what to make
00:55:58
of is the writing spectre that in a sense haunts their work.
00:56:04
It's probably just me projecting my own language onto their art,
00:56:08
but it did seem that the photocopier and the fountain pen
00:56:12
have that memory of the written and the distributed word.
00:56:16
What do you think? This is it.
00:56:20
I hope you enjoyed this new segment as much as I enjoyed
00:56:25
editing it, preparing it, researching it, and particularly
00:56:28
talking to the two artists, Anuk Mercier and Marina Roca DA, who
00:56:35
were so, so generous with their time.
00:56:38
And you are there. I hope you took something from
00:56:42
it. I'm really curious to know what
00:56:44
you thought of this episode. So leave a comment, send an
00:56:47
e-mail, sign up for the newsletter, follow us on
00:56:50
Instagram. There's so many ways to reach us
00:56:54
and to make suggestions. Tell us what you thought and
00:56:58
perhaps also share a few ideas that you may have had while
00:57:03
listening to the episode. Take care.
00:57:06
Have a good one. I'll see you in a couple of
00:57:08
weeks with another brand new episode.
00:57:12
Take Care.