You're bound to get an art education with our guest, curator Sarah Carrington! Our art talk with her explores her work as director of the Public Art Trail in East London The Line, as well as the joys of producing visual arts projects and supporting artistic commissions for an urban space full of wildlife and industrial areas, away from the capital's most overcrowded areas.
Art Insider is an art discussion segment with fascinating visual arts thinkers and curators who lift the veil on their corner of the field (hosted by Joana P. R. Neves).
- When is an art trail more than a walk from sculpture to sculpture?
- And how does a visual arts curator work with artists for a context such as... a city?
Hosted by Joana P. R. Neves.
Guest: Sarah Carrington, Director of The Line
https://the-line.org/
Buy The Line’s fabulous book here: https://buy.stripe.com/dRmdRacbw7Wn3H7gV0c3m0g
Donate to The Line here:
https://the-line.org/support-us-2/
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Host & Founder
Exhibitionistas is hosted by Joana P. R. Neves, a seasoned curator and writer with over 20 years of experience in the contemporary visual art field. She loves demystifying contemporary art by blending art history, theory, and personal reflections to reveal how art can uncover views on today's hottest topics as much as on everlasting existential questions.
Instagram: @joanaprneves / @exhibitionistas_podcast
For collaborations, text commissions and questions: joana@exhibitionistaspodcast.com
#visualarts #arteducation #arttalk #talkart #bestartpodcast #contemporaryart #art trail #publicart #londonpublicart #bestartpodcast #thelinelondon #artinthecity #curator #curatinginterview #curatorinterview
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We run well-being walks which you can be referred to by your
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local GP. People tell us that they go to
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the doctor less and say come on a well-being walks because of
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the fact they feel more socially connected.
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They've built confidence. So how does an outrail affect
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the perception of your surroundings?
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We saw these seashells broken on the path and I don't think we
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would have noticed them if it wasn't the line.
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So we if we weren't doing this sort of art hike and there were
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so many that we presumed that birds brought seashells from the
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water and just broke them blood to eat them.
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Hello and welcome to Exhibition Nesters.
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Welcome to another episode of the segment Art Insider.
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This episode has a little bit of a background story.
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Turns out that during this Christmas break, my family and
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I, we went on an art hike. We visited The Line, which is a
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public art trail in East London. It goes or it cuts across the
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city from Stratford to Greenwich.
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It is much more than just a walk from sculpture to sculpture.
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You get lost in industrial spaces, crossing through very
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old buildings, and you also visit a completely new part of
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the city, specifically Stratford.
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There's new buildings over there.
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There's a whole new world that you wouldn't visit if you hadn't
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decided to do an art hike. So today I'm welcoming the
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recently appointed director of this project, Sarah Carrington,
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and as usual, I asked her how she encountered art.
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But more specifically, I was really interested in knowing the
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specificities of this project, which is to take art beyond the
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museum walls to unusual spaces where people literally run into
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sculpture installations, perhaps even listening to the line audio
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Experience. This is art in unusual places.
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Unexpected encounters along an art trail.
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Exhibitionist is an independent podcast created and hosted by
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me, Joanna Pierre Nevers. Because we're all both actors
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and spectators of art and life. Hello and welcome to Exhibition
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Esters to another Art Insider episode.
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Today, my guest is Sarah Carrington, director of The
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Line. Sarah, thank you so much for
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joining us here at Exhibition Esters in your very, very busy
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schedule. Oh.
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Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure.
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It's been a long time coming. I've I've been meaning to reach
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out for a long time because I'm really curious about this
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project. I'm not sure many people beyond
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London know it, apart from the artist that maybe you
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commissioned a few works from. But first, I would love to, you
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know, know a bit more about you and about maybe your first
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relation with contemporary arts or art in general.
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When did you encounter it? So I was lucky enough to have
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quite a, I guess, creative family.
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My mum's very artistic and my dad was quite involved in
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supporting different arts organizations are very musical,
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so it was just second nature to them that we would go and do
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things at the weekends. One that I always seem to refer
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to, but it really stands out in my mind is a visit to the
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Burrell Collection in Glasgow. And I think I was probably 9-8
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or nine. And I remember this display of
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lace. And they talked about the makers
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who made the lace and the lace was displayed so beautifully and
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you could see this incredible intricacy to the work.
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And they talked about the women who worked on the lace and that
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over time many of them would become blind.
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And the process of that and the labour that went into the the
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making of this exquisite object which was something that was
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then given to somebody else to wear and enjoy.
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And I remember the way they presented it was so moving.
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I think I actually did cry, but I think it really made me the
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power of objects and making and artistry and the stories that
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are embedded within them. And I'm making my parents buy me
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a poster. Sounds very pompous, but of the
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lace. So I had it in my room and I
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always looked at it and I think, yeah, that was a real moment.
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I think also just thinking about that, the interpretation, the
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way that it was presented. So I think that was building
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that connection around curating and how how that's managed and
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the narrative that we are given by an institution around objects
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was very exciting. But in terms of contemporary
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arts, do you have a memory of the exhibition that kind of led
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you to be more in tune with what is the art that is being made
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today? That I feel like it's harder.
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I mean, it's a bit of a cliche, but I remember going to
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Saatchi's gallery in Boundary Rd. all those years ago and
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probably when I was at sixth form maybe, and just thinking,
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Oh my goodness, you know, I'm probably actually seeing Richard
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Wilson's oil installate, you know, just thinking how I'm
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actually getting goosebumps, which is really weird.
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But just thinking this architecturally, the space was
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so different to anything I'd seen before and it felt very
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urgent and sort of the scale of the works was so extraordinary.
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And that moment of the 90s and that kind of feeling of suddenly
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contemporary art being something that people wanted to connect
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with and that was provoking people to think in very
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different ways, I think was probably quite formative, even
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though I'm not, you know, I think there's definitely works
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within that moment that I don't necessarily relate to as such,
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but I think probably that that that space and that moment in
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time was probably quite a big turning point for me.
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But you know, you're not the only person because Ben and Luke
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also talked about Saatchi Gallery as a very specific
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space. And I'm really fascinated by the
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90s. And we had a chat about that
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because the 90s was such an important time.
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It was not about loving the work, but it was also the fact
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that me as an outsider, someone who was probably, you know,
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between Lisbon and Paris at the time, and learning about this
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later in curatorial studies, I'm fascinating by the fascinated by
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the 90s in the UK in general, because it was a moment where it
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touched the mainstream, didn't it?
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Definitely, yeah. And it was like a fusion of art
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and fashion and music. And, you know, I look back now,
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you know, my, I've got teenagers, teenage children, and
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they're obsessed with the 90s. And you sort of think I was so
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lucky. It was, it was an amazing time
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to be in London and to be studying and yeah, that
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culturally magazines, writing and no Internet really.
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You have to go to the places. You know, you had to be there
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and you had to write everything down and read the articles and
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reviews were so important. And, you know, it was, yeah.
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I'm not saying that what we've got now is terribly bad.
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I just still feel like that was to come of age in that context
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was pretty special, I think. Yeah.
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Yes, absolutely. And I'm also curious in knowing
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what other kind of arts or what other practice has an impact on
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your work with contemporary art. Is there any connectivity with
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other areas of creativity for you?
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You did start with LACE. Yeah, I mean heritage objects
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and historic kind of decorative arts or everyday objects in that
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sense. The kind of heritage and
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storytelling within those is probably something I'm always
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fascinated by things like folk art, and that's something that's
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always been interesting to me. An artist that kind of connects
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with those trajectories I think is really exciting.
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I think fashion is always an inspiration, and I was lucky
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enough to work with Roxander on a collaboration with Rana Begum.
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And I think definitely growing up, like just Mag, I was
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obsessed with magazines and fashion and the artistry and
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Alexander McQueen are these kind of people that were really the
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sort of performative elements of fashion.
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And then thinking about how fashion draws on historical
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references all the time and those interplays, I think it's
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probably been a big in a way, probably more than I realized in
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some ways. What do you mean by performative
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aspects of fashion? So I guess in fashion shows, in
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the way that shows are catwalk, you know, the way that people
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particularly I guess someone like McQueen used music and
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light and drama, you know, or Don Galliano, these kind of,
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again, I've got everything seems very 90s, but those those are
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very, yeah, extraordinary kind of platforms to experiment and
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explore different cultural references.
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When you think about it, it's true that I I'd never thought
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about the catwalk as a sort of exhibition space, as a sort of
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performative space, which is, now that you say it, the 90s
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were absolutely about that. Going back to the latest
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reference as well. But craft I think has always
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been something I've been in terms of the link between art
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and craft and thinking about ceramics and these kind of more
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everyday materials and how those have kind of entered into
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contemporary art and the flow between them and that.
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I've always found that quite fascinating and that they were
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historically often considered quite separated.
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And and then people like William Morris in the way in which he
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celebrated the potential of, of artistry and everything that's
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around us and like, yeah, kind of hold on to a lot of those
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ideas, I think. In your career you've you've
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done very different things. So you've done curating but
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you've done also managing. You Commission artwork, but
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you've also organised boards and worked on funding.
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You worked in Australia, you worked in the US, and each time
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we'd kind of like grassroots or at least burgeoning endeavours,
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let's say. So how would you define your
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profile and how and can you also for our listeners, because I, I
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do realize that people don't quite know what a curator does.
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Can you tell us a little bit about how that's also
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incorporated in the work of a curator sometimes, at least in
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your case? Gosh.
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I mean, in terms of defining my own profiles, I mean, that's
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quite difficult. I mean, I guess just going back
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to basics, I was always really fascinated with how art connects
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with everyday life and where art can appear in ways that people
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weren't necessarily expecting. So, for instance, I commissioned
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art in a hospital for five years and worked with, you know,
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project managers and clinicians and people who would very rarely
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be talking about art and creativity as part of their
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everyday. Can you tell us a little bit
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more about that hospital 'cause it's a very specific time and a
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very specific area of London? Yeah, so I was commission's
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manager at Vital Arts and they are the arts charity for Bart's
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Health NHS Trust, which is the Royal London Hospital and Bart's
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in the City as well as a number of other hospitals and Newham
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Hospital as well, and Whitscross.
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And yeah, it was. So that kind of gave me an
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opportunity to work in very much in within East London community,
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but also with the East London artists.
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And the hospital were often quite keen that we were always
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working with artists that were local and that meant we could
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call on all sorts of extraordinary artists that
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happened to live in Spittlefields or Shoreditch or,
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and a lot of them had a direct link to the hospital.
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So, you know, our budgets weren't huge, but artists are
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often incredibly generous because they felt very
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passionate about the role that art can play.
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I think that was sort of, you know, 22 and 7 to 2013
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probably. I was there and I think now
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there's a much, much richer understanding about the
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potential of art in health. And I feel like we were doing an
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awful lot at that time. Now there's much more research
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that backs it all up. I mean, it was beginning then,
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but it's, it's interesting to see now.
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It's almost a given that hospitals should have art within
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the buildings. But at the time it was ready, we
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had to keep kind of reminding people in hospital, for
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instance, it's, you know, it's got to function as a building
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that's doing all sorts of other things during that time.
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It's also in many ways a bit like installing art outside
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because people behave in a hospital.
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And it's, yes, particularly in White Temple, people behaved in
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quite surprising ways. So we had to have everything
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very, very robust and, you know, but also bringing joy and
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bringing surprise and giving artists an opportunity to do
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something extraordinary for them.
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So having to balance all of those different things and
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actually for me, I'm always like, what do you want to do as
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an artist? I want to start from there and
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push it as far as we can. But I've also got to be very
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mindful of clinical demands for that space, what patients need
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to feel like in there and what we can do to support that.
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How the space needs to be cleaned.
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Security, like really boring practical things.
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Power, how you access power. If they want to work with neon,
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what are the light levels? You know, all so.
00:13:20
And I find that, you know, it's incredibly challenging, but it's
00:13:23
also so fascinating. And every single Commission is
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completely different. I'm really interested in knowing
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a bit more about the difference between curating or
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commissioning an artwork for a space where people are not
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expecting an artwork, which is what defines I guess
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contemporary, outside of the gallery, in the museum.
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Are the parameters different? And also, do you have a sense of
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the reaction of the public as well of the people who are
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patients slash spectators suddenly?
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We did things with sound. We worked with nature recorders
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Chris Watson and installed his nature recordings alongside
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Barbara Roberta Smith's paintings of national animals to
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celebrate, you know, global heritage, which is again another
00:14:11
characteristic of East London. People from all over the world
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live there. And yeah.
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And then you kind of would get feedback from parents saying,
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oh, my gosh, my daughter saw that on the way to surgery and
00:14:20
it lifted her spirits or it made her think about her relatives
00:14:24
elsewhere or just like little anecdotes like that.
00:14:26
And that's the kind of thing it's quite hard to sort of track
00:14:29
in data. But it's, it's very powerful to
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know that and for the artist to know that that work has had a
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because a lot of the time artists don't have that feeling
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that their work has a kind of specific connection in a
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particular moment for somebody's life.
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And that's what art in hospitals can do.
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And people like hospital rooms are doing that in an
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extraordinary way now as well, as well as Vital Arts are still
00:14:49
doing amazing things as well so. So that leads us to the Line,
00:14:53
because The Line is a very, very special project.
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You've just been nominated director a few months ago.
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I believe Megan Piper was one of the initiators of the project.
00:15:05
And the line is basically, well, you could call it public art,
00:15:08
but it's a bit more than that because there's a real, there's
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a real sense of wanting to be intentional about it and also to
00:15:19
create a puff in a very specific area of London.
00:15:23
So can you tell us a little bit very quickly about the history
00:15:27
and why it came about, but more specifically what it is and how
00:15:30
you can? Experience it.
00:15:31
So the line is a public art trail which runs from Greenwich
00:15:35
in the South up to Stratford. And it's almost 8 kilometres
00:15:39
long. And it follows the waterways of
00:15:41
East London. And it broadly follows the line
00:15:44
of the Greenwich Meridian as well.
00:15:46
And it was set up in 2015 by Megan Piper and Clive Dutton.
00:15:50
And Clive was head of inward investment and head of
00:15:53
regeneration at Newham and was part of the Olympic Games in, in
00:15:58
Stratford. And Megan was an art, a
00:16:02
gallerist and art dealer and had also worked at Momart.
00:16:05
So she was very aware of the artworks that were in storage,
00:16:10
not being seen by the public. And together they kind of, they
00:16:13
were from very different backgrounds, but they had this
00:16:15
incredible creative chemistry and they came up with the idea
00:16:18
to bring artworks along the route of the line and to draw
00:16:22
audiences to really connect people to place.
00:16:25
And initially it was a loans programme.
00:16:27
So there was a call out, they worked with a, a kind of a
00:16:30
selection panel initially. And there was a call out to
00:16:33
gallerists, an artist to suggest works.
00:16:36
And there was a, the first series of works with 10 artworks
00:16:38
on loan in 2015. And there was a huge fundraising
00:16:42
campaign that went on behind the scenes to get, get the project
00:16:44
up and running. And so it included works by like
00:16:49
Damien Hirst, Martin Creed, Edda Palazzi.
00:16:53
There was also dialogue with the GLA.
00:16:55
So a series of commissioned works that were at the Greenwich
00:16:57
Peninsula that had been installed for the Millennium
00:17:00
were also brought onto the line. So it kind of became almost like
00:17:03
a joining the dots of work of public art.
00:17:06
So I joined in 2019 and we built a new fundraising and sort of
00:17:10
engagement strategy around because I could just see how
00:17:13
much extraordinary potential there was that hadn't quite been
00:17:15
tapped because of, I mean, Clive actually sadly passed away two
00:17:19
weeks after the line opened. And so Megan was left kind of
00:17:23
figure out how on earth to keep moving forward.
00:17:24
So in many ways it was sort of fundraising to stay still for a
00:17:26
number of years, understandably. And I think I was able to bring
00:17:32
my knowledge of kind of health and well-being and the benefits
00:17:34
of that, of art for health and well-being, as well as
00:17:37
experience of working at Future City, working with developers
00:17:39
and thinking about, yeah, how much I knew people wanted art
00:17:43
within new developments and could see how much East London
00:17:46
was growing along that stretch. And the line is like this
00:17:48
perfect opportunity to kind of bring all of those things
00:17:52
together and also really think about how local people could use
00:17:55
the line more. And then COVID happened and we
00:17:58
found that people were just connecting with the line in a
00:18:00
completely new way because we're the only museum open in London.
00:18:04
And people were finding that they wanted to be by the water.
00:18:06
And then they discovered these artworks and, you know, they
00:18:10
wanted to use it for running or for their daily exercise.
00:18:12
And so it took on this whole new significance for people, which
00:18:15
we could never have planned for. And actually, it became an
00:18:16
extraordinarily busy moment for us 'cause we launched a new app
00:18:20
with Bloomberg Connects. We were like one of the, I think
00:18:22
we're in the 1st 7 organisations on Bloomberg Connects.
00:18:25
We launched a new website. How does it work so Bloomberg
00:18:28
connects app? So through Bloomberg Connects,
00:18:31
it provides audio aids. Yeah, to experience how does it
00:18:37
work. So you know, for, I guess for us
00:18:39
it was perfect. We couldn't have an audio guide.
00:18:40
There's no way we could give people devices to carry along
00:18:43
the line. So it just meant on your phone
00:18:44
you have an app and you can connect with artists audio.
00:18:48
We had a, we developed a meditation so people could do
00:18:51
guided meditation along the route.
00:18:52
We have got an audio guide from Bill Nighy talking about the
00:18:55
architecture and the heritage. So it kind of was this new layer
00:18:58
of of a way to experience the line whilst you're walking, but
00:19:01
also for people around the world if they want to learn about the
00:19:03
line, it's all there as a kind of audio experience.
00:19:06
So that was a really big moment for us.
00:19:09
And then we also started commissioning in 2019, which is
00:19:11
something that I bought from previous roles because it would,
00:19:15
it had remained alone primarily. And we commissioned Larry Action
00:19:20
Pong again. All through COVID, he developed
00:19:23
this extraordinary audio Commission in collaboration with
00:19:26
the Museum of London, which you listen to as you cross the cable
00:19:29
car on the line. I've created a new audio work
00:19:35
titled Sanko Time for the Line which really considers the the
00:19:40
history and the relationship between the Royal Dock and
00:19:43
Greenwich in London and the connecting Veridian line and its
00:19:47
relationship with Accra, the capital of Ghana in West Africa.
00:19:54
Between the water and the earth, skin and bones, death and
00:20:02
rebirth. These on earth histories are the
00:20:08
lines that connect us. Sanko Time is combining 2 words.
00:20:13
Of course, time and then the word sankofo, which is an
00:20:16
account phrase meaning to go back and get it.
00:20:20
Particularly thinking about going back and and retrieving
00:20:23
something that is lost at a certain point in time.
00:20:26
That could be in relation to 1's own identity or knowledge
00:20:29
especially. And so revisit certain points
00:20:33
that have happened within memory in order to think about what's
00:20:37
happening within the other present.
00:20:42
These Royal Docks were previously celebrated global
00:20:46
Center for innovation and the industry, but for many they
00:20:54
still represent the stain of colonialism.
00:20:58
The connecting thread amongst all of this is water itself.
00:21:02
And so spending a lot of time reporting water and even
00:21:06
thinking about the relationship of travelling across water,
00:21:09
there's been quite a big bill. That connecting point in the
00:21:12
line also reveals itself to histories that perhaps are not
00:21:16
really spoken as much about. I mean.
00:21:18
What a lot of people must understand in the British
00:21:22
colonies. But thank you though.
00:21:26
There weren't concern about. Blacks in Asia, we commissioned
00:21:33
Rana Begum to create a new sculpture, which again, we had
00:21:35
to do during COVID, and it was installed with a, we did a
00:21:38
performance with English National Ballet and a
00:21:40
collaboration with Roxander, which it felt like it was just
00:21:43
after one of the last lockdowns. And it was this amazing sunny
00:21:46
day. And it just really felt like
00:21:47
this kind of new beginning and point of connection.
00:21:50
And that was very special and actually really exciting to see
00:21:53
the connection between performance and sculpture.
00:21:55
That was the first time we'd done that on the line.
00:21:57
Events now, now that we're post COVID, is this something that
00:22:02
you also brought into this post COVID time, which is that you
00:22:07
devise activities around the sculptures because that how many
00:22:11
sculptures are there throughout these 8 kilometres?
00:22:16
Yes, we have about 24. It's different works at the
00:22:18
moment along the route and there's a kind of plan to get to
00:22:23
30 by that 2030. And we have yeah, we've
00:22:29
initiated other performative moments.
00:22:31
It's a really brilliant way to bring people together to create
00:22:35
a kind of connection collectively.
00:22:37
So obviously you can walk the line at any time.
00:22:38
It's open all, all day, everyday, all through the year.
00:22:42
But something about performance actually creates that momentum
00:22:45
and it's. So we did disco sailing in 2024
00:22:48
with Rasheed Irene, which was a a water based performance where
00:22:51
you you wear a said you're going to wear a top that makes you
00:22:55
become a human sail. And then you float on a disc.
00:22:58
So it's, it's not disco, It's actually the disc is the disc
00:23:01
you're sailing. You're sailing on the disc.
00:23:03
And Rashid turned 90 this year, last year, 2025, and it was the
00:23:09
first time you'd ever seen the work performed.
00:23:12
So that was a very special moment.
00:23:14
And again, this. Yeah, people, people
00:23:16
experiencing their body in space kind of becoming sculptural as a
00:23:21
moment. It's very, very exciting and
00:23:22
something we'd love to do again on the line because obviously
00:23:25
it's also that more immediate. You know, commissioning
00:23:28
sculptures takes a really, really long time.
00:23:30
And that performance, I'm not saying performance is
00:23:32
straightforward. Disco sitting was not
00:23:34
straightforward. At all, I can imagine the
00:23:38
production behind because that's also your profile is also being
00:23:45
able to understand the way things are made, what is needed
00:23:50
for the production of a of a, an artwork or a piece or an
00:23:54
activator or, you know, a performative act and then kind
00:23:59
of making it happen. So tell me a little bit about
00:24:03
the how long does it take, for example, to organise that
00:24:07
particular performance that you just mentioned?
00:24:10
Roughly 2 years and within that time we had to fundraise, we had
00:24:14
to secure permissions, we had to, we explored quite a few
00:24:17
different places on the lines. Each time you're exploring a
00:24:20
location, you have to do incredible amounts of research
00:24:22
and get people on board. And then sometimes it doesn't
00:24:25
work in that site. So you have to rethink.
00:24:26
So you have to kind of be, allow your mind to not be too fixed on
00:24:30
the outcome. Otherwise you'd be incredibly
00:24:32
frustrated. And then, you know, we had
00:24:33
planned to do 2 performances of disco sailing and the second one
00:24:36
would have to be cancelled very last minute because there was
00:24:39
very heavy rain and there was a sewage release into the into the
00:24:42
river in the Olympic Park and it was deemed unsafe.
00:24:46
And so that, you know, those sorts of things that might come
00:24:48
up when you're working in the public realm, you are at the
00:24:49
mercy of partners, land owners, whether there's so many
00:24:54
different factors, birds, you know, there's just like so many
00:24:56
different things that can happen.
00:24:58
Obviously it was really sad to cancel, but actually weirdly, we
00:25:01
got loads of, because people were quite, it sort of
00:25:04
highlighted the issue with water management in this country.
00:25:08
And yeah, so that was a weird that we could never have
00:25:10
anticipated that with the best planning in the world.
00:25:13
So, yeah, I think what I just, I just see it as each project,
00:25:16
there's just so much to learn and you have to find out who you
00:25:19
need to get who, who you need in the mix, whose expertise you
00:25:22
need and bringing people on that journey with you.
00:25:25
And you have to provide a lot of reassurance to different
00:25:29
partners because every time you do something, it's completely
00:25:30
new. You could never say to somebody,
00:25:33
oh, the, when we did the sculpture before with this
00:25:35
material or when we previously had people floating on the river
00:25:39
wearing these things, this is what happened.
00:25:40
We don't, you know, we, we. So you have to test everything
00:25:43
and build confidence, but you also have to allow people to,
00:25:46
you have to bring people on that journey to have a kind of leap
00:25:48
of faith, which they then have this extraordinary experience.
00:25:52
That's what I love is that people like in the hospital,
00:25:54
people would be like, I never thought we'd be able to do this.
00:25:57
And we've made this thing happen and people now have a completely
00:25:59
different environment. And that's, yeah, I'm not saying
00:26:03
it's kind of life changing, but I think it is is transformative.
00:26:06
Tell me a little bit about funding because you've all
00:26:09
throughout your career you've worked on funding and I think
00:26:12
this is sort of the nasty words of contemporary art in the sense
00:26:17
that it is difficult, it is necessary.
00:26:20
It is very different from context to context.
00:26:23
You know, if you're the Tate, obviously you have so many
00:26:26
arguments for funding, but then if you are doing something
00:26:29
completely different public, so you know, there for everyone
00:26:36
where there's it's, it's much harder to as you were explaining
00:26:39
before, to get feedback from the impacts in in regards to the
00:26:43
impact of of what you do, because people are just passing
00:26:47
and they may post something on Instagram, but they may not tag
00:26:51
you. So it is a difficult thing to
00:26:53
evaluate. So could you very quickly tell
00:26:56
me about your different experiences with funding?
00:27:00
You can vent a little bit. You're allowed to because I
00:27:03
think it's the most frustrating thing funding, but also the most
00:27:06
rewarding thing when it actually goes well.
00:27:10
Yeah. I think, I mean, I kind of work
00:27:13
on the principle that kind of money and support follows good
00:27:16
ideas. And you know, I guess a bit like
00:27:20
bringing people on the journey you, I think a lot of people are
00:27:24
wanting to be inspired and feel connected.
00:27:27
And yes, it's about impact, but it's also about goodwill and
00:27:32
people being excited about the potential of something.
00:27:35
And so I guess I've, so I've, in terms of my funding journey, I,
00:27:40
I think I mentioned I, when we, before we recorded, I applied
00:27:44
for an Arts Council grant when I was at university.
00:27:47
And I remember thinking for we did, we set up a little magazine
00:27:50
at Brighton University. And I was so blown away that we
00:27:54
were given money. And I think it was through
00:27:56
lottery funding, Arts Council, arts for all, it was called or
00:27:59
something. And I remember that feeling,
00:28:01
thinking, Oh my gosh, they believe in this and we've got
00:28:03
money to do this. Somebody actually wants to give
00:28:05
us money. And it was just such a
00:28:05
revelation and really exciting. And I think I've always had that
00:28:09
zeal of like, let's find a way, you know, let's find a way to
00:28:12
make this possible. And, and then I worked with
00:28:17
Louise McKinney at the Serpentine when I just finished
00:28:19
at the Royal College and learnt a huge amount from her in terms
00:28:23
of, yeah, all the different ways you can source funding from
00:28:27
corporate involvement, from cultural embassies, from trust
00:28:30
and foundations and, and Arts Council.
00:28:35
And then when I worked as a freelance curator, we did loads
00:28:38
of fundraising and we ran a curator partnership for six
00:28:41
years, completely funded through European money, Arts Council
00:28:44
funding, different British Council, different pots that
00:28:47
we've, you know, we did that entirely off our own and
00:28:50
actually managed to give ourselves a salary.
00:28:52
And that was a kind of amazing, again, a bit like, wow, we've
00:28:54
found a way, We've found a way. And a lot of it is about, you
00:28:58
know, telling a really good, not telling a story sounds like
00:29:00
you're not telling the truth, but telling, showing people,
00:29:05
showing people where you need to get to and how they can help you
00:29:07
get there. And you're absolutely right with
00:29:09
the line. It is really hard to track
00:29:11
feedback because we don't have any tickets, we don't have any
00:29:14
entrance or exit. But the principle of us being
00:29:18
available and accessible within a context that's incredibly like
00:29:21
has kind of historic structural inequality that's really
00:29:24
significant, has major health factors.
00:29:28
You know, there's lots within that context which is really,
00:29:31
really challenging. In particular, like around
00:29:32
COVID, they, it was one of the hardest hit neighborhoods in the
00:29:35
UK. And so we want to be able to
00:29:38
show how the line is trying to what, what we know about our
00:29:41
community in our context and how the line is trying to do all it
00:29:43
can to support people in different ways.
00:29:46
And then we show the impact. So it's more, I guess our
00:29:48
engagement program has been able to collect a lot of information
00:29:52
and feedback and knowledge and we listen to people and we
00:29:54
convey that to funders to say that we know that they enjoyed
00:29:57
it, We know that it meant this to them.
00:29:58
And we run well-being walks, which you can be referred to by
00:30:03
your local GP and people tell us that they go to the doctor
00:30:07
lessons, they come on our well-being walks because of the
00:30:09
fact they feel more socially connected, they've built
00:30:12
confidence, they've found connection to nature they didn't
00:30:15
have previously. And so those are quite
00:30:18
compelling examples, even though we're not saying we can tell you
00:30:21
what everybody who walked the line this weekend felt about it,
00:30:24
but we can give you quite solid examples of the way in which our
00:30:27
programming has impacted on people.
00:30:30
And similarly, we run a youth guides programme.
00:30:32
So we employ young people every summer and that was really set
00:30:35
up as a programme about skills and employability.
00:30:38
And each summer we do surveys to check how they've how they've
00:30:42
done and what they've gained. And they'll tell us about, yes,
00:30:45
they've learnt more about contemporary art, they've learnt
00:30:46
more about public speaking and about their neighborhood.
00:30:50
But they've also been telling us outside of these normal skills
00:30:52
questions we use, that they've actually their mental health has
00:30:55
improved because they've been outside, because they've been
00:30:58
off their screens, they've been with in nature with other young
00:31:01
people that they wouldn't have met otherwise.
00:31:03
And that was never the aim of the program.
00:31:04
But it's quite interesting that those things can start to be fed
00:31:08
back to you. And we do have a lot of people
00:31:10
who walk the line and then they feel they really want to see it
00:31:14
grow and see it thrive. I was wondering if you have any
00:31:17
anecdotes, little episodes that you might know in relation to
00:31:22
the physical experience of the sculptures in the whole circuit.
00:31:27
Because people's experiences of them or yes, and actually I
00:31:32
should do a plug from our book, which just recently launched in
00:31:34
November, published with Feiden Monocelli.
00:31:37
There's a brilliant essay in the book by Andrew Jones and he
00:31:42
explores all the ways in which the line connects with people
00:31:45
through our projects and programming.
00:31:47
He interviewed a number of people that we've always said
00:31:49
one of our youth guides, one of our well-being walk attendees,
00:31:52
different partner organizations we work with.
00:31:55
And that's a really beautiful reflection on the different
00:31:57
encounters and relationships people have through the line.
00:32:00
And one of them is Amar, who lives very near the line and has
00:32:05
this amazing little dog. He walks every day on the line.
00:32:08
And obviously it's useful for his dog walk, but he very much
00:32:11
talks about how the line has kind of, it's kind of part of
00:32:13
his Buddhist practice. And he, he had a really terrible
00:32:19
car accident a few years ago. And he uses the line as part of
00:32:22
his kind of mental and physical recovery, and that he loves the
00:32:27
fact that these works kind of provoke his thoughts and stop
00:32:30
hope, slow him down to reflect and think about the world and
00:32:33
himself in a different way. And that's something we do here
00:32:36
quite a lot in terms of that idea of kind of connecting with
00:32:38
your surroundings and connecting with yourself.
00:32:41
And that's what the line allows you to do, and it's sort of on
00:32:43
your own terms, which is probably different to what
00:32:46
happens inside a gallery or a museum.
00:32:48
Maybe it's that feeling of being outside in the elements and it's
00:32:51
a kind of journey of your own making.
00:32:53
I will put a link in the show's notes for people to go straight
00:32:57
to did the book and purchase it. I was also wondering about
00:33:05
something else which is based on this idea of the line being the
00:33:12
possibility of experiencing art in in a different way and to
00:33:16
incorporate art in the the fabric of the city and and
00:33:20
day-to-day life. I was wondering what kind of
00:33:24
exhibition or art or art experience it can be outside of
00:33:31
museum spaces. Yeah, you'd like to see in the
00:33:35
future or experience in the future.
00:33:37
It's simple without saying anything too specific that I've
00:33:39
got kind of my dream project, which is actually a real thing
00:33:43
that I'm really hoping will happen, which is part of this
00:33:45
thing of actually having to dream things and you just to
00:33:48
dream things into being, you know.
00:33:50
So if I I'll say it, but I won't give too many details because we
00:33:53
can't really talk about it yet, but I would love the idea that
00:33:56
we could. This is this is specific to the
00:33:59
line. Develop an artwork which somehow
00:34:01
reflects the specifics of the kind of landscape in the
00:34:04
wildlife along the route, which is so unique and extraordinary.
00:34:08
Within one of the dense, the most densely populated parts of
00:34:10
the UK, you can find 52 species of birds.
00:34:14
You can find seals, wildflowers, It's it's the sort of nature
00:34:18
thriving against the odds. And I would love to kind of have
00:34:22
an artist really capture some of that through.
00:34:25
I don't know how exactly I've got, I've got an idea, but I'm
00:34:27
not going to say it yet. And then to think about how we
00:34:30
could engage different partners like East Bank at the top of the
00:34:33
line in Stratford. There's now Saddle as well as E
00:34:36
the BBC choirs will be based there and recording facilities.
00:34:41
London quality fashion. Obviously VNA East and what they
00:34:44
have are these extraordinary collections and resources, but
00:34:46
they also have these enormous buildings.
00:34:48
And what we have is the the ground level, the public realm,
00:34:52
the kind of layers of experience you have from encountering the
00:34:55
public realm and our community connections that we have.
00:34:57
So I'd love to do something that would capture that wildlife and
00:35:02
something that's a physical outcome, but maybe also some
00:35:05
sort of extraordinary performance.
00:35:07
We once did a procession on the line with Sergey Tiqui Clottey
00:35:10
with school children from Newham, which was just the most
00:35:13
extraordinary moment of them kind of claiming the space and
00:35:17
dancing and processing along with surge and boats on the
00:35:20
Thames were Tooting at the children to say hello.
00:35:23
And it was this amazing transformation.
00:35:25
And I think the power of a procession is very exciting.
00:35:28
So I'd love to do another some sort of another procession on
00:35:31
the line of some kind. So that's very much about like
00:35:34
what I'd like to see on the line rather than in general terms.
00:35:37
So yeah, I don't know if that. Was it's funny because now that
00:35:40
you're saying that when I the last time I went, we saw these
00:35:46
seashells broken on the cuff. Yeah.
00:35:50
And I don't think we would have noticed them if it wasn't the
00:35:53
line. So we if we weren't doing this
00:35:55
sort of art hike. Yeah.
00:35:57
And there were so many that we presumed that birds brought
00:36:00
seashells from the water and just broke them there to eat
00:36:04
them. Yeah.
00:36:05
And it was so exciting. You see them all the way and I
00:36:07
can't the name of the bird now, but they dropped them to break
00:36:09
them open. Yeah, it's and there are
00:36:12
kingfishers, there's Karen. Yeah.
00:36:16
And cormorants that dry their wings on Helen Chemex Bridge.
00:36:20
So, yeah, I think it's so surprising and it's such an
00:36:24
industrial area that to somehow have all of that sing out
00:36:29
through a through a piece feels very exciting.
00:36:31
And also, I guess, considering how, you know, the climate
00:36:34
emergency and the changes that are happening and how we have to
00:36:36
live in cities and how we relate to nature, I think that's
00:36:40
becoming, you know, that's something we really want to
00:36:42
ensure is part of kind of key part of our program.
00:36:44
What is the balance between economy and the dream?
00:36:50
So the projects, how is it measurable?
00:36:54
Is it balanced at the moment? Is it always, is it always a
00:37:02
problem? Because I, I think that at the
00:37:04
moment we're kind of undergoing this revision of materials.
00:37:07
For example, you just mentioned the climbing, the climate
00:37:10
emergency and toxic materials, et cetera.
00:37:14
And we're also trying to leave less of a presence as humans
00:37:18
perhaps or impose ourselves less.
00:37:22
So of course, I'm thinking about that, but I'm also thinking
00:37:25
about the economic crisis. Everything's very expensive at
00:37:29
the moment. Import exports have kind of
00:37:32
broken the chain of availability in this country of materials and
00:37:38
and then food and and lots of things.
00:37:39
So I think that question for me was always important, but it has
00:37:44
become more urgent in some ways. How does the line provide a
00:37:50
vision on this, on this or or some answers on this question?
00:37:56
Yeah, it's a very good question, I think.
00:37:59
I think obviously within within projects, there's always a
00:38:02
balance between an artist's ambition and aspiration and then
00:38:06
what's actually affordable and practical.
00:38:09
And public art commissioning is not very cheap because you need
00:38:14
to create something that's really strong and robust and
00:38:19
often has to have quite complicated foundations and has
00:38:21
to be approved by structural engineers.
00:38:24
And, and so often if we're working with artists and it's
00:38:28
their first time working in the public realm, that's a bit of a
00:38:30
journey for them to go on. We definitely assess materials
00:38:34
from a sustainability perspective and try and ensure
00:38:37
that anything we're using is not.
00:38:39
Yeah, negative for the environment or has a kind of
00:38:43
negative or also think about how things the afterlife of works as
00:38:46
well if they're not on the line. I mean a key principle for us is
00:38:49
that we would, we just really want to make sure people are
00:38:51
paid to reflect the efforts and the time that they're putting
00:38:54
into things as much as we can. We are also really lucky that we
00:38:57
have quite a lot of pro bono support which really helps.
00:39:00
So things like our engineering is often provided by an
00:39:02
extraordinary engineer Arab who is just has a kind of wealth of
00:39:06
knowledge and incredible creative ability to work with
00:39:09
artists and help them navigate working outside.
00:39:12
So for instance, Rana Begum worked with him on her mission,
00:39:15
which he created a whole support structure for.
00:39:18
And it wouldn't really have existed in the form because she
00:39:20
wanted any support to be kind of effectively invisible.
00:39:23
And so Steve McKinsey came up with this system with her,
00:39:26
which, you know, allowed her to do that work outside that she'd
00:39:28
never presented that work outside before.
00:39:30
So, and that would have been phenomenally expensive for us.
00:39:34
So I think, and again, I feel like it's part of that thing of
00:39:37
trying to make something extraordinary and magical and
00:39:40
take everyone on a journey. Often people are just like one
00:39:42
that once they know there's an idea and a problem to solve, if
00:39:44
you get the right minds in the room, they will go above and
00:39:47
beyond to make that possible. I think that's a really
00:39:50
interesting point and I think it's really important to really
00:39:53
highlight the fact that sponsoring, you know, beyond
00:39:57
patronage, there's also sponsoring because a lot of
00:40:00
people say, oh, I don't, I don't have enough money to support.
00:40:02
I'd love to support artistic projects.
00:40:04
But actually you can also bring your own expertise and give a 2
00:40:09
hour, a few hours during the week or during the month to a
00:40:13
project and support an artist. And that's also a way of being a
00:40:17
patron. And that makes your work even
00:40:19
more admirable, because you have to.
00:40:23
You know, find all these people to support you.
00:40:26
But thank you so much. This has been lovely.
00:40:29
Thank you for your time and I hope you come back to
00:40:31
exhibitionistas. I hope so too.
00:40:34
Yeah. Thank you so much.
00:40:34
It's been a real pleasure. Exhibitionistas is an
00:40:36
independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna Pierre
00:40:40
Nevers. Because we're all both actors
00:40:43
and spectators of art and life.