Le Guin demonstrates how we can totally change the STORY.
But... how does this apply to curating?
Hosted by Joana P. R. Neves.
Catherine Li chose: Ursula K. Le Guin
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00:00 Intro 00:05:10 What does a curator do?00:09:57 The book over which Joana and Catherine bonded00:15:29 The Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction00:23:16 An exhibition the size of a lunchbox00:33:22 Ideas and practicalities of curating00:40:49 Le Guin’s critique of the hero-centric story00:45:55 The curator: hero, opinion maker?00:52:09 Feminism, pre-history and curating00:59:49 The curator as a carrier01:07:23 Traditions and experimentations in curating01:16:59 Le Guin’s vision: process rather than conflict
Did the episode stir Art Wonderment memories? Share them via text or voice message.
Created & Hosted by Dr. Joana P. R. Neves, art curator and writer with over 20 years of experience in the contemporary art field. Artistic director of Drawing Now Paris since 2018, she has worked across the industry, from the art market to education. She co-launched the art residency and project space Worlding in 2020. Exhibitionistas’ first year offered exhibition discussions with guest co-host Emily Harding; organically, it grew into a more experimental show exploring art topics, stories and interviews complemented by Joana’s publication Art Thinkosaurus on Substack. She champions ‘Art Wonderment’s’ embrace of complexity against the lure of ready-made opinions. A polyglot, she grew up in Lisbon, studied and lived in Paris, to finally settle in London with her artist husband, four children and two cats.
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Online: www.exhibitionistaspodcast.com
Do you want to be a guest on Art Etiquette? Reach out: joana@exhibitionistaspodcast.com
Copyright: Joana P. R. Neves, 2024.
00:00:00
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Exhibition Esters,
00:00:02
this is Joanna PR Nevis. I am an independent curator and
00:00:07
writer and the hosts of this podcast.
00:00:11
For those who follow the podcast regularly, of course you notice
00:00:16
that the last episode did not drop and the reason is very
00:00:21
simple. I was travelling for work for
00:00:26
the most part of three weeks. If you needed any proof that
00:00:30
this is a one woman show, that's it, You have it.
00:00:36
Sometimes these things happen as it so happens to catch the flu,
00:00:41
which is precisely why my voice sounds a bit different today.
00:00:46
But I'm so, so, so excited to introduce this new episode to
00:00:50
you. Which, by the way, is also a new
00:00:53
segment called Art Book Club. And I'm so proud of this
00:00:57
segment. I'm very proud of this episode.
00:01:00
It was not easy. I have to tell you not to drop
00:01:04
the episodes because I am a perfectionist.
00:01:08
I like everything to be impeccable.
00:01:12
But also, this is an independent podcast.
00:01:15
And if you needed any more incentives to finally click on
00:01:23
that link and donate, I think this is it, isn't it?
00:01:27
You know, this podcast cannot exist without you, and it can
00:01:31
only thrive if you become a member.
00:01:33
So there's many ways to do it. You can go on the show's notes.
00:01:37
So that's the little blurb below the title of the episode.
00:01:42
It's a sort of a description of the episode that you find on all
00:01:46
platforms, all podcasts platforms, and you have very,
00:01:51
very different ways to contribute.
00:01:53
You can subscribe to the sub stack, which by the same token
00:01:58
is a way for you to subscribe to the newsletter.
00:02:00
So as you know, I'm a writer, I don't do newsletters.
00:02:04
I find them a waste of time, a waste of space.
00:02:09
So usually what I do with the newsletters is that if they
00:02:13
become a sort of a a text, it they're also filled with links,
00:02:19
information about the episodes. This is a segment that I.
00:02:26
Decided to create. While talking to my guests,
00:02:33
Catherine Lee, the books that my guests bring to the segment were
00:02:37
not written with contemporary art in mind.
00:02:41
So that's the rule, That's the rule of the game.
00:02:43
It has to be a book that is not about contemporary art.
00:02:47
And we found out in conversation that one book for us, for both
00:02:54
of us, was incredibly important for our idea or notion of what
00:03:01
curating is. If you don't know what curating
00:03:04
is, basically it's perceptualizing, creating,
00:03:07
organizing, promoting exhibitions.
00:03:11
I think that the beauty of the fact that you can be influenced
00:03:15
by a book or an author, a vision that speaks about something
00:03:22
other than your job and bringing it into your own craft, means
00:03:27
that even if you're not a curator, you can always take
00:03:30
something from these episodes. I'll tell you a little secret.
00:03:34
I listen to a lot of podcasts about business, about stand up
00:03:39
comedy, acting, because having methodologies from other areas
00:03:45
can be useful to your own. So for example, at a certain
00:03:48
moment, believe it or not, I was really stuck when it came to
00:03:51
public speaking. So I started listening a lot to
00:03:56
stand up comedians who talk about their craft.
00:04:00
And it really inspired me to see how they develop an idea, how
00:04:05
they verbalize it, how they lead you to the pun, how they deliver
00:04:10
the pun. And it helped me quite a bit.
00:04:13
So there's always information you can get that you can apply
00:04:17
to your own area and. This guest, let me tell you.
00:04:21
Does not disappoint. She is such an original thinker.
00:04:25
So I can tell you now that the book she chose to bring is
00:04:30
Ursula K Le Guin's very, very, very, very short text The
00:04:36
Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. We find out that a very, very
00:04:42
small shift in perspective can include a whole community of
00:04:46
people. So without further ado, I will.
00:04:49
Leave. You to the episode, As for
00:04:52
myself, I am going back to bed but you, I hope you enjoy this
00:04:58
episode as much as I did recording it.
00:05:02
And don't forget, click on those links.
00:05:04
Help me continue this amazing adventure that is
00:05:08
exhibitionists. Let's do this.
00:05:12
Welcome to the segment Art Book Club.
00:05:16
This is a segment where my guests bring a book that has not
00:05:21
been particularly written with contemporary art or even visual
00:05:25
art in mind, but which somehow, either on a personal level or in
00:05:30
the collective level, it has entered the contemporary art
00:05:34
Canon. It's my honor to welcome to
00:05:37
exhibitionists this for the first time, the independent
00:05:40
curator Catherine. Catherine is a london-based
00:05:45
curator. She's very interested in her
00:05:48
curating activities and projects in site specific events, also in
00:05:56
participatory events or projects or exhibitions.
00:06:00
She's also interested in digital archives and much more than
00:06:05
that. So, Catherine, welcome to
00:06:07
exhibitionistas. Thank you.
00:06:09
Hi, Joanna. Hi.
00:06:11
Thank you for inviting me for this amazing project.
00:06:14
One of the opening you hosted in your project space, we were
00:06:17
talking about random topics about how that it feels like to
00:06:21
being a curator. And obviously our conversation,
00:06:25
there's a gap between two of us. As you know, we haven't met
00:06:29
before officially and we have different experience.
00:06:34
You are much more experienced in the industry.
00:06:37
I'm a emerging curator who just, you know, engaging this industry
00:06:43
for like 5 years or even less so.
00:06:47
And I was amazed by how quick we bonded with each other.
00:06:51
Yeah, with really quick and simple question, but.
00:06:54
That's because you asked the question, didn't you?
00:06:57
You asked the question that kind of let me a bit taken about not
00:07:01
taken aback, but I will. It made me think, so do you want
00:07:05
to say yeah? Yeah, I guess because I always
00:07:09
question about the role as a curator and and we all know that
00:07:15
curator came from the word. Cure kudai.
00:07:20
Kudai in Latin. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:22
So, and I was asking you if you can choose one word or three
00:07:29
words to substitute the word curator, what would you choose?
00:07:34
Yeah. Would you want to try it again?
00:07:37
Yes, yes, sure. I don't remember what I told you
00:07:40
because weirdly I think I've had two conversations recently about
00:07:44
that. And I remember, I don't know if
00:07:47
it was with you. I remember saying, for me, a
00:07:49
curator is a space specialist looking at a space,
00:07:54
understanding a space and with everything that it means, it can
00:07:58
be the demographic of the people who goes into the space, the
00:08:01
space where the space is located.
00:08:03
So the the geography, all of it. Did I answer that at the time?
00:08:08
I don't remember. No, we yes, you, you mentioned
00:08:11
the space. You mentioned that you know, you
00:08:13
reimagine the space is a huge the most fascinating part for
00:08:17
for curation because you you said you would like thinking
00:08:23
about the work. Imagine, you know how the
00:08:27
effects are going to be look like once you put all the work
00:08:32
and you will put yourself into the shoes as a audience and then
00:08:37
you just re you know, just walk into the space over and over
00:08:41
again to re experience the whole space yes, and I remembered that
00:08:47
very well and then I think that's was the point.
00:08:50
I all the sudden remembered the book carrier back theory of
00:08:55
fiction and I said I want to be a if I can find a word to
00:09:01
substitute the word curator, I want to be a carrier back.
00:09:08
And this morning I was thinking, is that something new that like
00:09:12
recently I because I read this book, then I think about this
00:09:17
concept. But actually I had a similar
00:09:21
thought like five years ago. I remember I was in the
00:09:24
interview for the curating course for Royal College of Art
00:09:29
and I didn't go because the tuition fee was too high.
00:09:33
I went to Saint Joseph Martin 1 instead.
00:09:36
But I remember I was being asked to answer the question of how?
00:09:39
How do you see in a curator? I said, I see a curator as an
00:09:44
empty box, an empty box that is capable for anything, no matter
00:09:50
it's beautiful or not beautiful. And that is something I just all
00:09:55
the sudden remembered you. Remember that?
00:09:58
Yes. And then this is such an
00:10:01
interesting coincidence because when I read the carrier bag was
00:10:04
Oh my God, the idea is so refreshing for me as a curator.
00:10:08
I want to be a curator or person who carrying a bag all the time.
00:10:13
And I saw this something really innovating and refreshing.
00:10:17
And actually, I had the same thought five years ago without
00:10:21
reading a single piece of writing like this.
00:10:24
And I have very limited experience, like practical
00:10:27
experience. I just finished my BA and I
00:10:32
haven't really stepped into the the real industry.
00:10:35
Like, yeah, so that was. That's fascinating because this
00:10:41
being an art book club, so about books, I'm really interested in
00:10:48
the fact that you read a book that in some ways resonated with
00:10:55
an instinct that you had before. Yeah.
00:10:59
And you found in this book something that you were actually
00:11:03
thinking about on your own. And I think that's really
00:11:07
fascinating because sometimes we have this idea of writers,
00:11:11
thinkers, authors as the these people who bring a sort of
00:11:15
enlightenment to the masses who are learning from them.
00:11:20
But actually, it's a collective effort.
00:11:23
And I think Ursula K Le Guin talks about that in the book,
00:11:26
about this idea of community and about the fact that you are
00:11:32
building something with someone else.
00:11:34
Yeah. And that the fact that you
00:11:37
thought about that and the fact that we are thinking in terms of
00:11:41
empty spaces where we have to bring something in is really
00:11:47
interesting in the sense that it is almost as if it's like a
00:11:53
Platonic idea where ideas are somewhere and they're external
00:11:57
from us and we just kind of convey them at a certain point
00:12:01
and also brings we also bring them into certain specific
00:12:05
contexts. So to explain to our listeners
00:12:10
how so, how this conversation unfolded.
00:12:14
So you were talking about curating and I remember that
00:12:18
when you mentioned the book The Carrier Back Theory of Fiction
00:12:22
by Ursula K Le Guin as being imported for curating, I
00:12:27
remember saying what what? You know, I was so surprised
00:12:30
because it is a really important book for me as well.
00:12:34
And that's why I wanted you to be the 1st guest of this
00:12:37
segment, because I was fascinated by the fact that a
00:12:42
book that has nothing to do with curation suddenly was bringing 2
00:12:48
curators together who both loved the book, probably for very
00:12:52
different reasons. And one of them actually had had
00:12:56
the idea before and kind of met Ursula K Le Guin halfway, Yeah,
00:13:03
while already having thought about this empty space.
00:13:07
So do you want to talk a little bit about this idea that you
00:13:12
have of being really focused in place, so exhibitions that are
00:13:18
either on public spaces or oriented towards a site specific
00:13:24
or a site where they happen, the idea of participation.
00:13:29
So what in your career has have you organized that would
00:13:35
correspond to these ideas well? I think that this question links
00:13:40
to to many different theories like the poetic of space.
00:13:47
So in terms of the space related practice, I did a lot of
00:13:52
research towards participatory art and my question was always
00:13:57
about how a space is able to cultivate a community and and
00:14:07
through participation, how a community or people entering the
00:14:12
space could make changes to the space.
00:14:16
And then this kind of everlasting interaction make
00:14:21
both the space and the community growing.
00:14:25
And this idea fascinates me. And that's really parallel with
00:14:29
this one of the core idea in this book of carrier bag theory
00:14:34
of fiction, which means, you know, La Queen was suggesting
00:14:39
you, you have a bag, you put the things that you found interested
00:14:44
into this bag. And and this bag is holding for
00:14:48
all the voices, all the experience, all the
00:14:52
relationships that all happening just within this tiny space.
00:14:56
So she is not suggesting, you know, you have to expand your
00:14:59
practice into like massive space, but in a way she is
00:15:04
suggesting another way you put everything you know as small as
00:15:11
possible space to make them to say what's going to happen.
00:15:16
So wait, wait. Wait, I'm going to stop you
00:15:17
there. Yes.
00:15:18
Because that's fascinating and I know what you're going to talk
00:15:22
about, which is a project of yours.
00:15:25
But first of all, let's introduce the the text properly.
00:15:29
Yes. So Ursula K Le Guin, author,
00:15:33
she's known as a science fiction writer, to be very specific.
00:15:39
She was born on October 21st, 1929.
00:15:43
She passed away recently, seven years ago in on the 22nd of
00:15:49
January of 2018. She's a Californian born there.
00:15:54
She lived there and she developed her work there.
00:15:58
She had a few stints in Europe. She was a Fulbright scholar.
00:16:02
So she came to Paris to study where she met her husband.
00:16:06
Then she went back and then she had another stint in Europe to
00:16:10
to study much later. But she's basically, she was a
00:16:15
california-based author and she wrote poetry, she started as a
00:16:20
poet, she wrote short stories. She's mainly known as a science
00:16:25
fiction writer, but she also wrote absolutely mind blowing
00:16:31
essays. I think she's a marvellous
00:16:33
essayist because she knows how to write about complicated
00:16:40
things in simple terms. So do you want to introduce the
00:16:44
book? So the book is called The
00:16:47
Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. Oh, we have the same one.
00:16:51
Yes, look at that. We have exactly this.
00:16:55
And it says used up and dirty and folded.
00:16:59
Yours as much as mine. Exactly, exactly.
00:17:05
Thank you so much for allowing me to introduce this amazing
00:17:09
text because it's also a good opportunity for me to return to
00:17:14
this text as it's always so refreshing and inspiring every
00:17:19
time when I go back because it's always reconnects me to my
00:17:25
recent thought, to my surroundings, my recent
00:17:28
encounters. And it's always give me a really
00:17:31
refreshing idea of how how I can, you know, deal with those
00:17:36
sorts. And actually, I was thinking
00:17:38
about this introduction. I found it so challenging
00:17:41
because the whole text is so short and the idea is actually
00:17:44
so simple and straightforward. But the depths of it, the
00:17:49
constellation of salt is sparks actually make any kind of grave
00:17:55
introduction with reduced is what this text want to open up.
00:18:03
So I mean, Ouch, I'm sure. You can do.
00:18:07
It I'm sure you can do it. So in short, the Carrier Back
00:18:11
serial of fiction was written by Ursula K Lequin in 1986, and it
00:18:20
was first published in Woman of Vision Essays by Woman Writing
00:18:26
Science Fiction edited by Dennis DuPont in 1988.
00:18:32
So it is very short radical essay that reimagines both
00:18:37
culture, human history and storytelling based on feminist
00:18:42
anthropology, which we can expand on that later.
00:18:46
She suggested that the first human toll was not a weapon, but
00:18:51
a contender, a bag for carrying and sharing.
00:18:56
From this she challenges the weapon shaped or spare shaped
00:19:03
hero center story for battles and conquers, etcetera.
00:19:08
She was proposing that that fiction can be a carrier back, a
00:19:12
vessel for many voices, everyday experience and collective
00:19:17
survival. So today this idea continues
00:19:20
influence feminist ecological writing and as well As for
00:19:27
artists and curators is is also play a very important role to
00:19:32
tell us what is another story, what is a more relational ways
00:19:39
of storytelling. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a
00:19:44
wonderful book. It is true that it has.
00:19:46
I mean, Ursula K Le Guin has had a sort of a revival or maybe
00:19:50
discovery, I have to say, not being someone who has had a an
00:19:56
English education. So I arrived as a grown up to
00:19:59
the UK already. I came to Ursula K Le Guin
00:20:03
through Donna Haraway. So I was reading Donna Haraway,
00:20:07
who has also become a name that has been.
00:20:11
Kind of thrown around between curators and and contemporary
00:20:16
art thinkers and philosophers. And Donna Harroway is someone
00:20:19
who is, she has a scientific background, but she now is a
00:20:26
teacher of new ideas. I think the course she teaches
00:20:31
has a very strange name, like a sort of new ideas and narratives
00:20:35
in contemporary and epistemology.
00:20:38
You know, something like this. And I remember reading Donna
00:20:41
Harroway Way specifically about sustainability and about notions
00:20:46
of ecology and how to be, how to shift your perspective in order
00:20:51
to align yourself with the Earth and the planet, the biosphere.
00:20:57
And she kept referencing as La Que Le Guin.
00:21:01
And one day I was in a bookshop and I saw this little book and I
00:21:04
thought, oh, this is a great way to read the first story by
00:21:08
science fiction author Ursula K Le Guin.
00:21:11
And little did I know, it was an essay.
00:21:14
So I was really not expecting to read this.
00:21:19
And it was a really important moment for me.
00:21:23
I remember reading this and being feeling elated by the text
00:21:30
and as you say so well, feeling a bit stupid because it's such a
00:21:36
simple idea at the same time, like you say, so well, like what
00:21:42
if the most important objects? And I'm fascinated by
00:21:48
prehistory, by the way, I read a lot about prehistory.
00:21:51
Mm hmm. And I'm not a specialist,
00:21:53
obviously, but I try to read as much as I can.
00:21:55
And I remember thinking, why did I never think about that?
00:22:00
Because obviously when you are a person, perhaps nomadic,
00:22:05
building houses from natural materials that you have to build
00:22:08
and build over again than to try and fight food.
00:22:11
Isn't it obvious that the first thing you need is something to
00:22:15
carry the fruits that you have collected for you and for your
00:22:19
friends? I remembered.
00:22:21
I remembered me so I when I was when I was a kid, I was
00:22:25
fascinated by the the novel called Robinson a Crusoe.
00:22:30
Me too, yes. And I like, I like the novel so
00:22:34
much, I read it over and over again because it's so
00:22:37
fascinating to see a human being from modern society and all the
00:22:41
sudden through to an island and you have to rebuild everything
00:22:44
from scratch. And I remember very clearly that
00:22:48
the I couldn't. We need to revisit, revisit
00:22:51
that. That's the next art book class.
00:22:54
I think that's your next episode with Exhibition Esters I.
00:22:58
Remember very vividly there was 1 chapter.
00:23:02
It's talking about how Robinson is making the pot.
00:23:06
And it was right there, wasn't it?
00:23:08
And. That was right there and we
00:23:09
never like have this kind of really clear sort of which toe
00:23:15
was most useful you. Haven't told us how you have
00:23:19
come across the book. How did you find out about it?
00:23:23
When did you read it? How did you feel about it?
00:23:26
How? How did that happen?
00:23:28
How did you encounter this book? So it was very interesting and
00:23:34
also surprising. So like 2 years ago actually
00:23:38
last year, I did a artistic change project which I call out
00:23:45
for all London artist to submit a artist lunch box to me.
00:23:52
And therefore I could carry all the lunch box to Vienna because
00:23:59
I'm going to do a curatorial residency over there.
00:24:02
So I'm going to stay in Vienna for like 10 days.
00:24:05
So I'm going to carry all the lunch box to Vienna and meet
00:24:09
another bunch of artist and then another bunch of each artist
00:24:13
from Vienna would receive 1 lunch box that prepares by
00:24:17
London artist. And then the Vienna artist could
00:24:21
use the the launch books that made by London artist to to
00:24:27
create a new work. And then one of the artists who
00:24:32
is was participating from London when he was submitting his books
00:24:37
to me, he said, oh, your projects.
00:24:40
You should read the this text by Ursula Queen because your
00:24:44
project sounds really similar with what is this books the book
00:24:50
suggesting. And I was like, oh, tell me
00:24:53
more. And then I got this book and
00:24:56
then I read it in Vienna actually during my residency.
00:25:02
Found it fascinating because what I was suggesting for the
00:25:06
artist to do with the the lunch box because it's not actually
00:25:10
asking people to prepare actual lunch.
00:25:13
Instead, I asked everyone to find a box, a lunch box, for
00:25:18
example, and and look at your studio or your home or wherever
00:25:25
your practice is based in and put materials that is unwanted,
00:25:32
wasted or sabotaged in your studio into this very little box
00:25:39
prompt was a really, really, really I will say open yes, even
00:25:45
you give me a a box of air. You say there's an air from a
00:25:49
studio. That's even fine as long as you
00:25:51
tell me is this an air from your studio?
00:25:56
So it's like anything object based or not object based,
00:26:01
saying this is all fine. It can't be valuable thing.
00:26:05
It can't be. And for example, if you're a
00:26:09
pantel, you have off cut from your canvas a draft or a scat
00:26:16
that you just thrown away and you don't want to really thrown
00:26:20
away because you still want to keep in your studio in case you
00:26:23
need it one day, things like that.
00:26:26
But I also give a little bit a suggestion that I hope those
00:26:30
materials or this whole box can reflect you and your practice,
00:26:36
but it has to be not unvaluable stuff like like rubbish, it has
00:26:42
to be rubbish, things like that. And and then I, I did that open
00:26:48
call and just in 10 days I received 25 boxes was so funny.
00:26:54
And people just carry little box and come to me.
00:26:56
And then and then, and then the the artist who was so funny, the
00:27:02
artist who was recommending me this book, he told me, Oh, this
00:27:06
practice is amazing because, you know, you always retreat your
00:27:14
studio space as a, let's say, a sacred space, A sacred space for
00:27:20
producing artworks. And those artworks have to be,
00:27:24
you know, go out of the, you know, get out from the studio,
00:27:29
go to the galleries and be ready for the critiques from the
00:27:35
public and curators. And then once you start looking
00:27:41
of every corner of your studio, it's just so funny that because
00:27:46
you now you all finally realize the whole ecosystem that you
00:27:50
build into the studio and those little things that grown up with
00:27:55
you, they are maybe they are rubbish.
00:27:58
They are drafts, they are sketches.
00:28:02
They are like, you know, finish the tubes or cut off woods or
00:28:08
stretch a bars. You've been accumulating all
00:28:10
this, but all to solve this essential goal of the studio
00:28:15
practice, which is producing artwork.
00:28:17
But because you're so focusing on this artwork production, you
00:28:22
almost forget all this little thing that around you.
00:28:25
And he found this practice fascinating because because once
00:28:30
you put your eyes, put your attention to these little
00:28:34
things, the whole studio is like a total different thing to you.
00:28:37
It's like another world. It's like what you said, it's an
00:28:40
ecosystem. It's a ecosystem.
00:28:42
Everything participates, even the unwanted things like you
00:28:47
said, participate and have an active role in this ecosystem.
00:28:51
That's what the artist meant, right?
00:28:54
Yes, and then and then once he starts to put in some because he
00:28:58
need to be selective to you know, to put things into that
00:29:02
very box. So and he realised, Oh my God,
00:29:07
some little things that he never noticed actually contribute a
00:29:10
huge pot. Maybe like for example, a
00:29:12
biscuit box that he always ate like kind of biscuit he always
00:29:16
eat during the studio practice. And then you now you have really
00:29:20
refreshing salt out these biscuits because you have this
00:29:23
intimate relationship with this very kind of biscuit.
00:29:28
And then he put everything into that box, even a sock.
00:29:32
I remembered very well about his when I opened the box.
00:29:39
So that Oh my God, this box smell like the other world.
00:29:46
So imagine like all the things and also the small things he
00:29:50
made and like little object, he's also making sculptures
00:29:56
using found objects. So this little object he found
00:29:58
is really difficult to use, but he don't want, he doesn't want
00:30:03
to throw them away. So he kind of accumulated them
00:30:06
in the corner of the studio and he's found.
00:30:09
Oh my God, that's fascinating because once you start putting
00:30:12
everything in this box, you just feel like your whole journey of
00:30:16
student practice is condensed in this tiny box and and it feels
00:30:23
like they are not trash anymore. They become the most valuable
00:30:28
thing. They become a new piece of work.
00:30:31
It's called Jacob Clayton, a London-based artist and whose
00:30:35
practice is about about paintings, about fond objects
00:30:40
and also things that are playful as.
00:30:43
Soon as you talked about the books, I thought about Marcel
00:30:46
Duchamp, because he really did think a lot about art, like we
00:30:52
think about curating with as much love as a sharp critical
00:31:00
sense as well. And he also created what he
00:31:04
called in French La boet en vallis, which means the books in
00:31:09
the suitcase or the books as suitcase.
00:31:13
And so he created a museum in a box with images, right, of his
00:31:20
own work. And I remember being also really
00:31:24
struck by this and being really interested because I think as
00:31:28
curators, we always think about the museum with reverence, but
00:31:34
also with a sort of a healthy distance also of the artificial
00:31:40
setting that the museum can be as well.
00:31:42
Would you agree with that? How did you come?
00:31:45
How you agree only with the respect, not with the distance.
00:31:49
Or the distance. Yes I do.
00:31:51
I do agree with the distance. Yes, I know the distance create
00:31:54
the aura. Yes, it creates the aura, but
00:31:59
also in some ways we kind of also know that exhibitions occur
00:32:06
in many of the kinds of spaces other than museums.
00:32:10
So artists run spaces, pop up spaces, spaces that are not
00:32:15
white cubes. It's very rare that actually you
00:32:17
get to exhibit work in in a white cube.
00:32:20
But then you also start to kind of deliriously think, okay, So
00:32:25
what if everything? What if the world was a museum
00:32:29
and everything was? And there's a film called
00:32:35
Midnight Cowboy, I think, where at a certain time William
00:32:39
Burroughs is walking in the street.
00:32:42
So the the writer and with his cane, I think he has a cane and
00:32:46
he's showing, he's pointing at things with his cane and he's
00:32:49
saying this is a work of art this and he's just pointing at
00:32:54
things that make up the urban space basically.
00:32:58
So as curators, we do end up in this kind of delirium of what a
00:33:03
space can be and what an exhibition space can be.
00:33:07
So I'm, I'm pretty sure that you have, I mean, the way the reason
00:33:12
why you thought about the lunch boxes may be rooted in very
00:33:16
practical reasons, but also very aneric or kind of delirious
00:33:21
reasons. How did you come to the idea so?
00:33:24
It was very practical because they are portable.
00:33:28
Exactly. Which is what Duchamp said about
00:33:32
his own easy e-mail box. I I saw, I saw his his project
00:33:39
outlines well after I made this because I was looking for
00:33:44
reference to, you know, find similar projects like, you know,
00:33:50
yeah, maybe resonate with me, but in different aspects.
00:33:53
So because I was doing this curatorial rest dancing was
00:33:58
supported by Austrian Culture Forum in London and they were
00:34:03
supporting me to do a research trip in Vienna for like 10 days.
00:34:11
And then my goal, they were asking me as a contracted
00:34:15
independent curator, they will ask me to select like 5 artists
00:34:21
from Vienna, like Vienna based 5 artists to collaborate with
00:34:27
another 5 artists I selected from London to do a final
00:34:32
exhibition. And and the selection based on
00:34:37
my the same that I came up at the time, which is making making
00:34:42
expensive. I was interested in how artists
00:34:46
can use one single materials to make things expensive.
00:34:50
It can be tangible, inexpensive like huge.
00:34:53
I yeah, I did selected one artist who make huge things or
00:34:58
you can come up with tiny ideas, but you are so obsessed with
00:35:02
this tiny idea, you just keep repeating, repeating, repeating.
00:35:06
So some artists I selected also their practice also involves
00:35:10
reputation. So I had this very initial idea,
00:35:16
but I found it's really limiting for me to just like 5 artists
00:35:21
from both London and Vienna. And I want to expand this idea
00:35:27
and, and then I, I was thinking, OK, I'm going to stay in Vienna
00:35:32
for more than 10 days. I can definitely do more things
00:35:35
than just, you know, like having conversation with artists or,
00:35:40
you know, visiting museum. I can definitely do something
00:35:42
more interactive with local artist.
00:35:47
And then I was thinking like how I can make something make the
00:35:52
connection better between the London art thing and Vienna art
00:35:56
thing. I need to start from people and
00:36:01
and then, but I need to find a really key portal for them to
00:36:07
connect with each other and and it has to be practical because I
00:36:12
don't have budget to support me bring a massive projects back
00:36:17
and forth or that's. What I wanted to get to because
00:36:21
I love the fact that in the book, the, the first thing that
00:36:28
is mentioned is food as a sort of a really basic, we'll go into
00:36:34
that. So I, I will explain that later,
00:36:37
but one of the references made is the way people fed themselves
00:36:42
in prehistory in the book, in the in Asla K Lewin's text.
00:36:46
And what I loved about that text is that it connects the most
00:36:52
world building value oriented theory through the most
00:36:59
practical thing, which is how to keep alive, how to get food and
00:37:05
what kind of diet to have in order to have a good living and
00:37:09
to raise kids and to just live as a community.
00:37:14
And you raise this issue and in curating, a lot of the times you
00:37:20
have that terrifying situation where you have an idea for a
00:37:25
project, but then you have the shipping costs and then you have
00:37:30
also the costs that come with building a sonography in the
00:37:35
space. So there's a lot of costs that
00:37:37
people don't think about when you're creating an exhibition
00:37:40
and when you're making decisions for an exhibition, particularly
00:37:44
exhibitions. There are these kind of programs
00:37:46
of, oh, we're going to connect this city and that other city.
00:37:50
And then as a curator, you're like, you have 2000 lbs of
00:37:54
budget and you think this cannot work.
00:37:56
I'm not. I don't want to say that you had
00:37:58
a very small budget. That's not what I'm saying.
00:38:00
I'm exaggerate is hyperbole, but those are kind of the people
00:38:06
think of curators as dealing with big ideas, but we also deal
00:38:09
with very, very, very practical things, which I think is why
00:38:13
this book resonates so much with curating as well.
00:38:16
Yeah, you have to survive and in order to survive, we have to
00:38:20
come up with the most simple, but we think it's innovative
00:38:26
ideas yes and another important thing is, is then another core
00:38:32
point from this book is how to make thing more collective,
00:38:37
because you need to think about you know, you need to be able to
00:38:42
create something, a quick space that is capable to hold more
00:38:45
things, more voices to me for this project the same and I hate
00:38:50
this. I mean, I of course, I enjoy, I
00:38:52
have this kind of power, I have to admit it, to be able to
00:38:56
select the artist I like to collaborate with towards the
00:39:01
exhibition in the end. But the same time I hate this
00:39:04
idea because I was, I would think why the how I, I, why
00:39:11
should be me holding this power of selecting those artists and
00:39:16
artists they need to be selected in most of cases.
00:39:20
And then why I should have this killing power, you know, and I
00:39:24
hate this, that that's why I found participatory art is so
00:39:29
fascinating because you give people options and, and these
00:39:34
options are open for to everyone.
00:39:40
You can participate if you like. So this is like more mutual
00:39:45
beneficial collaboration instead of me giving you opportunity.
00:39:50
So I, so that's why I want to create this kind of open call
00:39:54
based participatory art. So people submit as they like,
00:39:59
and people can participate to interpret the launch box
00:40:02
afterwards as they want. So, and that opens up, opens for
00:40:07
more voices and, and I don't have to do the selection.
00:40:12
And I remembered when I was collecting the box, I was
00:40:16
carrying my luggage, I was collecting.
00:40:20
So some artists, they submit to me in person, but some of them
00:40:24
they said if it would be great if you, you can help if you can
00:40:28
collect the box and I'm happy to do that.
00:40:30
So I did a really quick travel around London between artist
00:40:34
studios and I was collecting with my luggage and one of the
00:40:37
artists said, Oh my God, I like this open call because you are
00:40:40
not selecting. It's like she was hugging me
00:40:46
like, I like this whale of, you know, you organize an open call.
00:40:49
Another thing that, as Lake Lequin does, is to challenge,
00:40:56
yeah, the notion of the hero. Yeah, so.
00:40:59
She kind of gives you a, a starting point to the book where
00:41:05
you think she's headed towards an explanation of what's the
00:41:11
structure of storytelling, what makes a good story.
00:41:15
And so she starts by describing something really interesting,
00:41:20
which is that contrary to what we believe it was.
00:41:26
So the the prehistoric and Neolithic diet was very much
00:41:33
veg, vegetable based, not based, perhaps adding bugs and mollusks
00:41:41
as she says, and little rats, rabbits.
00:41:45
So there wasn't much hunting. And so she says something that I
00:41:49
find really, really interesting, which again comes to this notion
00:41:53
of practicalities, which is that the average, so I'm quoting
00:41:58
here, the average prehistoric person could make a nice living
00:42:02
in about a 15 hour work week, end of quotes.
00:42:07
And so she's saying that because of foraging, basically because
00:42:12
there was a real knowledge of the environment, you knew where
00:42:15
the rabbit would come if you really needed some protein.
00:42:19
But basically she's very focused on wild oats because oats really
00:42:25
are extremely nourishing and are the basis of the foods that was
00:42:30
apparently or at the time, I don't know how studies are at at
00:42:34
the moment, but at the time was a big part of the basis of food.
00:42:39
And so she talks about these 15 hours of subsistence as leading
00:42:45
to a really nice life where people who could sing would sing
00:42:50
by the fire, those who could sew would sew.
00:42:53
Those who could be funny were making, you know, a spectacle of
00:42:57
themselves to make other people laugh.
00:42:59
But remained the skilless people, the people who didn't
00:43:04
have any particular talent, who maybe were getting a bit bored
00:43:08
and so therefore decided to go hunting big games.
00:43:12
So hunting the mammoth. And I love how she shifts.
00:43:16
And I remember reading this at the time, and not quite because
00:43:19
she speaks in the first person. So she puts herself in the place
00:43:23
of someone. He was a prehistoric person.
00:43:25
Yeah. And she says so quote.
00:43:29
It is hard to tell a real gripping tale of how I wrested a
00:43:33
wild oats seed from its husk. And then another, and then
00:43:36
another, and then another and then another.
00:43:39
And then I scratched my nut bites and all said something
00:43:43
funny. And we went to the Creek and got
00:43:45
a drink and watched newts for a while and then I found another
00:43:49
patch of oats. UN quote.
00:43:51
So she's talking in the first person and she's saying, I can't
00:43:55
fight, right? My story isn't as interesting as
00:44:01
the story that the hunters are bringing into the community.
00:44:05
So what they're bringing is not only an action, but they're also
00:44:09
bringing a hero. So the story not only has
00:44:12
action, it has a hero. It is powerful.
00:44:16
And so as I was reading this, I was thinking, oh, so she's
00:44:19
giving us the structure of, you know, basically the basic thing
00:44:25
that you study when you're studying literature in school,
00:44:29
which is you need to have this, and then you need to have a
00:44:31
crisis. And then someone solves the
00:44:33
crisis. There's an opposition, then
00:44:35
there's a victory, and then the story's over.
00:44:38
And I was a bit disappointed until she flips the scripts,
00:44:43
which I should have seen coming, obviously, when she started
00:44:47
talking about the skill as people who become hunters and
00:44:50
that she changes the perspective completely by bringing up
00:44:57
Virginia Woolf. It's a really like you say, it's
00:45:01
a very simple text, but she goes very far.
00:45:03
So she brings Virginia Woolf up and then she brings someone who
00:45:07
I didn't know who was Elizabeth Fisher.
00:45:11
He was a a writer and an editor who published the book called
00:45:15
Women's. Well, actually the she doesn't
00:45:17
quote the whole title in the text, so the book is called
00:45:22
Women. 'S creation, sexual evolution
00:45:25
and the shaping of society. Exactly.
00:45:28
And it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in 1979 and I
00:45:33
think published in 1977. So suddenly the the story is
00:45:39
completely flipped. The perspectives are completely
00:45:41
different, and that's when I was hit like a ton of bricks by
00:45:46
reading this thing. And it is a little bit.
00:45:50
There's a parallel there with the notion of the curator as
00:45:54
Hero did. Did you?
00:45:56
Yeah, it's like what I just mentioned, Like I don't want to
00:45:59
have that kind of superpower of being able to save or kill
00:46:04
certain people. Exactly.
00:46:07
That's why I feel so resonated ways and also if we look ahead,
00:46:13
there are someone who is more super, have more superpowers,
00:46:17
more like a hero and someone is beyond my league and I can't
00:46:22
even see him or or shave or they and I can't.
00:46:27
Maybe I will be realized when I was killed.
00:46:30
I mean all the sudden, you know what I mean?
00:46:32
Like it's really, it's, it's really parallel with this whole
00:46:37
world. I mean, especially art industry,
00:46:39
there's always certain powerful or dominating voices that
00:46:45
leading the trend or or manipulating the market that we
00:46:50
can't even say. Yeah, we can't name names well
00:46:56
the the opinion maker. Well, in the past we can.
00:46:59
For example, when I studied curating, I remember that my
00:47:03
teachers who were basically male, I, I must say, were had
00:47:09
this reverence towards Harold Zeman, for example, who was
00:47:15
presented as this genius. So suddenly there was a shift
00:47:22
when I was younger and studied philosophy and then went into
00:47:26
aesthetics and then decided to do a master's in curating
00:47:29
studies. There was this shift between the
00:47:32
artist as the hero. And then I was fed this story as
00:47:36
no, no, no, you are the hero. The curator is the hero.
00:47:40
You're the one who is the opinion maker.
00:47:43
Look at Harold Zeman and I remember because I come from
00:47:47
literature, from my first love was writing literature, fiction,
00:47:52
and I remember when attitudes become form.
00:47:55
So the name of the big document exhibition that Zaman curated I
00:48:01
believe in 196869. So I remember live in your head
00:48:08
when attitudes become form this mega title.
00:48:12
And being someone who's very, very taken by words, I remember
00:48:17
thinking, Oh my, Oh my, this is such an incredible title.
00:48:22
This is life changing because it doesn't really describe or
00:48:26
doesn't, it doesn't. It's not contained by movements,
00:48:30
names of movements. It kind of opens up the minds to
00:48:34
whatever everyone was doing at the time.
00:48:37
And you kind of are fascinated by this figure.
00:48:41
And I was much more interested in the way he had come to that
00:48:48
vision of things rather than how he worked.
00:48:54
What was possible. Why were the names?
00:48:58
Why was that group of artists important at the time?
00:49:03
But one must also say that Harold Zaman then curated
00:49:08
another exhibition where artists invited friends.
00:49:14
So there was this idea which kind of opened up the scope of
00:49:20
who, of the decisional power of the curator.
00:49:25
But maybe it also emphasized what you were just describing,
00:49:29
which is as an opinion maker. A curator invites the people
00:49:33
they know and organizes exhibitions with their friends.
00:49:38
And to me, I, I always like keep questioning myself every time
00:49:43
when I curate show because I did curate some, a lot of group
00:49:47
shows. And I I'm not going to deny that
00:49:51
I'm never like invite my close friend.
00:49:54
Instead, I always invite people around me like because even
00:49:59
they're not close, but because of my circle, because of my
00:50:02
maybe my culture background. Also, my experience shaped the
00:50:08
very particular people group of people around me.
00:50:11
And I can only see them. I can also see people like apart
00:50:16
from like those group of people, but the same is something might
00:50:20
stop me from very inside. Maybe they are not really
00:50:24
approachable to me. But The thing is, I would say I
00:50:29
would definitely keep trying to approach the people that are not
00:50:34
in my because I'm expanding this circle by inviting more people
00:50:41
that I have. I have no common friend ways.
00:50:45
I have no overlap ways so and I found it's fascinating all the
00:50:52
time because every time I've been rejected by artists a few
00:50:58
times, even I bring budget, bring artists fee to them.
00:51:03
Is there still always a reason for them to reject me and
00:51:09
multiple reasons. Maybe my tutorial reproach or my
00:51:14
tutorial premise doesn't really resonate with them.
00:51:16
They found it irrelevant. That's all fine.
00:51:18
But I do have experience with artists who have no idea who the
00:51:24
hell am I, who are more very experienced in the industry, but
00:51:28
they still like very open, very kind and embracing the new ideas
00:51:36
and embracing to collaborate with new people.
00:51:40
And that gave me a lot of motivation.
00:51:43
And that is also a round of the central.
00:51:46
I guess the suggestion from this book as well is you have to make
00:51:52
yourself be capable of holding more things.
00:51:55
Therefore, this, this very this container of you, your world or
00:52:01
your friend circle can be able to create a more exciting story.
00:52:09
Yeah. I'm interested in the ethical
00:52:14
concern and priority of curating, not being, not
00:52:18
undermining the expertise that you have, because if you sit
00:52:26
with another curator with exactly the same profile as you,
00:52:31
you will have your expertise. They will have their expertise,
00:52:37
which will probably not be the same.
00:52:39
So Elizabeth Fisher is a really interesting character because
00:52:45
she, I thought she was an anthropologist, but actually she
00:52:48
isn't. She was a writer who then
00:52:51
produced this book, which is a feminist book first and foremost
00:52:55
that draws on sociology, ethnology and anthropology.
00:52:59
And that says that the women were the first inventors of the
00:53:04
hunter gatherer face, which is really interesting.
00:53:09
And so she starts by saying why are women considered as property
00:53:13
that has been exchanged and sold?
00:53:16
So that's one of the first questions of the book.
00:53:19
And she associates our idea of nature with the idea of women.
00:53:26
So nature is also something to be conquered and possessed as
00:53:31
much as the female body. Ursula K Le Guin directly quotes
00:53:36
the book very quickly in the text.
00:53:38
I'm interested here in the question of narratives that you
00:53:43
raised, which is the main narrative, and the underlying
00:53:47
communitarian narratives that are being overlooked.
00:53:51
So for me, when I read the the text, it the the feminists
00:53:58
perspective was really interesting because, and I see
00:54:02
the way you read it as it being really effective because it's
00:54:06
not only defending a female perspective of nature, of life,
00:54:13
of anthropology and of knowledge.
00:54:15
It is saying you call this female and you put this in that
00:54:19
role. But actually this is all about
00:54:21
community. Yeah.
00:54:24
I when I doing the the curatorial practice and I never
00:54:30
think, I mean this is something as you just said, you think I
00:54:35
have more experience, but I if I have to count it, I don't think
00:54:39
I have really long profile, but I treat every project like a
00:54:45
child and it's like something I need to protect with all my
00:54:51
effort. And that's why I think overthink
00:54:55
even too much. I worried about oh is the
00:54:59
participate happy with the result, I need to ask them for
00:55:04
the consent for sure if I need to mention them in the future,
00:55:08
have to credit them properly, things like that.
00:55:12
So I build a website to document all the launch books.
00:55:15
Though I may be a family curator but I never realize it.
00:55:21
That is a better way of phrase it.
00:55:24
So I do things based on my instinct.
00:55:27
So I do think because I feel it's right, because it's my
00:55:32
inner soul is calling me to do this.
00:55:35
Therefore, I guess because I'm a female in the end, that explains
00:55:42
how I do things in that way. So I would rather interpret in
00:55:47
this way because and I was OK. I'm a feminist artist and so I'm
00:55:52
feminist curator. So I do everything feministly.
00:55:55
OK, I will realize, Oh my God, this is so beautiful.
00:55:58
But I never do that with very particular intention.
00:56:02
I follow my very instinct. So, and another thing I found
00:56:09
this video also very feminist but very natural to me is be
00:56:14
able to to gather things to think about future, to think
00:56:18
about longer future, to be able to gather resources and sustain
00:56:23
the current make this project sustainable.
00:56:29
There's something really, really natural and it's.
00:56:31
Interesting that you were talking about sustainability
00:56:36
and. Availability as well.
00:56:38
Accessibility. It's something nowadays like you
00:56:42
know, I work in URL, we've been kept educated like so the.
00:56:45
University of London. Yeah, University of Arts London,
00:56:51
as staff member, we always have this kind of session of how to
00:56:55
make your session or how to make the project more accessible,
00:57:00
more diverse, more sustainable. It's something that people keep
00:57:06
yelling all the time nowadays. The thing is, it's something so
00:57:11
natural, that's why this folk fascinates me.
00:57:13
It's like we've been yelling those manifestos all the time
00:57:16
and we encourage everyone to be accessible, be sustainable.
00:57:22
But people pre history, people already been doing that without
00:57:27
any single thoughts of what is exactly is sustainable.
00:57:33
So and that is really refreshing for me.
00:57:38
And and then once you understand why people are doing this, you
00:57:42
will be able to doing everything more naturally, more really
00:57:47
following your heart more genuinely instead of just to
00:57:51
tick the book you. Were talking about prehistory
00:57:53
and you were talking about the way the Ursula K Lewin describes
00:57:58
the way the the Neolithic people live.
00:58:02
So in a sort of a harmonious relationship with things.
00:58:06
The exhibition space is a museum, is an Art Center.
00:58:10
But you're seeing that maybe the exhibition space is something
00:58:13
else, is somewhere else. To answer this question, I also
00:58:17
I also want to mention the very emotional point for me and also
00:58:23
why this book resonant with me, especially when the Queen is
00:58:27
talking about woman or or a kind of man that is able to making a
00:58:35
sack or carrying a bag to hold things together, things to open
00:58:40
up things for more people for longer future.
00:58:43
And that's resonate with because this kind of care embedded in
00:58:48
her text is really important to me throughout my all my tutorial
00:58:53
project. And I didn't even realize that.
00:58:56
So that very moment was I put when I was doing this artist
00:59:02
lunch boxing, I put all the lunch box was about 25 lunch
00:59:08
boxes into a luggage. So I didn't even prepare a lot
00:59:14
of my my clothes because I need to save space.
00:59:20
I need to save space. So I wonder.
00:59:21
About that. I wear 2 coat with me when I was
00:59:28
landing the plan, but this is really ambitious to make the
00:59:32
whole space accessible to everyone.
00:59:36
This is very ambitious, but I would try my best and I'm being
00:59:40
learning and also improving so but this would be my definitely
00:59:45
a huge part of my learning journey as a curator.
00:59:49
You're. Not at the centre of the
00:59:50
operation. You're not the decision maker
00:59:53
and you are not the person who's the hero, right?
00:59:56
We were talking about establishing a parallel between
00:59:59
the curator and the hero, but I would argue that by setting up
01:00:06
such an original. Frame of work.
01:00:11
And such an original setting of people sending you their lunch
01:00:16
boxes, you going into the studio to collect a lunch box that you
01:00:20
gave a prompt for, and then carrying the the lunch boxes to
01:00:25
Vienna and then creating this almost performative distribution
01:00:33
of the lunch boxes and rearranging the workshop
01:00:39
setting. I think you render yourself far
01:00:42
more visible and far more remarkable than any person who
01:00:47
would just have sent an e-mail to an artist saying, I want to
01:00:50
borrow that work of yours, please.
01:00:53
They would have sent, yes, speak to my gallery or speak to me.
01:00:55
If they don't have a gallery, fill in, in the loan forms, the
01:01:00
work is shipped, they're invited to the inauguration or not.
01:01:06
And in some ways the curator becomes really unremarkable
01:01:09
because they're just a person who had an idea, contacted them,
01:01:14
You know, make perhaps an effort to send a text, explain the
01:01:18
idea, do a Zoom call. But then the idea of curating is
01:01:23
that the artist is at the forefront of the exhibition.
01:01:27
It's not you, but here you are much more visible as someone who
01:01:33
is and you're making the carrier visible.
01:01:38
And my, my, the second part of my argument would be, I think
01:01:43
that the carrier is a really important object because it
01:01:47
requires, if you think about it, and you were talking about
01:01:50
Robinson Crusoe in the beginning of the episode and the, the fact
01:01:54
that a whole chapter is dedicated at creating a pot.
01:01:58
It's not easy to make a container when you live in the
01:02:01
prehistoric time. It means that you have to weave
01:02:05
for hours and hours and hours and hours.
01:02:09
You have to work on the material.
01:02:10
You have to create fabric for Christ's sakes, which is just
01:02:15
unimaginable when you think about it, that you had to make
01:02:18
fabric like with your bare hands, of course, with your
01:02:21
stencils and tools, and obviously lots of traditions
01:02:26
that were passed on from generation to generation.
01:02:29
But still, the container is a beautiful object in itself that
01:02:33
requires so much skill. So in some ways you kind of
01:02:36
descended from your pedestal of the curator as the maximum
01:02:41
authority. You placed yourself in the
01:02:44
creative level alongside the artists in some ways.
01:02:51
I feel. Thank you.
01:02:52
I mean this is very interesting comment.
01:02:55
What I just you know, on this project also my way love being a
01:02:59
curator. Something I found really
01:03:01
relevant with resonated with what the Queen said because she
01:03:07
very, very humbly said she didn't disagree with the hero
01:03:11
Centre story. She just said she differs with
01:03:15
all this kind of story. Or maybe she's not human at all.
01:03:20
If a human means you need to kill, you need to use a weapon,
01:03:25
then she's not human at all. And this is where she transit to
01:03:30
being a maybe a defective human. Do you?
01:03:33
Mind if I leave, if I read the the message?
01:03:36
Because you, you are quite right.
01:03:38
It's such a beautiful. The society, the civilization
01:03:42
they were talking about, these theoreticians was evidently
01:03:45
theirs. They owned it, they liked it.
01:03:48
They were human. Fully human.
01:03:50
Bashing, sticking, thrusting, killing.
01:03:54
Wanting to be human too. I sought for evidence that I
01:03:58
was, but if that's what it took to make a weapon and kill with
01:04:02
it, then evidently I was either extremely defective as a human
01:04:07
being or not human at all. Yeah, I guess.
01:04:11
I guess I just really like the way she disagree with this kind
01:04:16
of, you know, a haunting story. But she didn't say, Oh, I
01:04:20
disagree. She say she says instead, she
01:04:23
said, OK, if that if that means being a heal isn't you are
01:04:27
human, then I'm not human at all because I'm not like this kind
01:04:30
of people and I don't like killing.
01:04:34
So I that's why I feel like when you are talking about my
01:04:38
project, you know, you said I did too much like I.
01:04:43
Did not say you did much. I said you did.
01:04:46
You did something very You were weaving.
01:04:50
Basically you were weaving the container, which is you.
01:04:55
You. You did a huge amount of work
01:04:59
that puts you in the place of inquiry, of questioning for the
01:05:06
artists and for the other people involved in the project.
01:05:09
Yeah. And but yeah, it's also, as you
01:05:11
said, like the normal typical understanding of being a curator
01:05:16
is like writing emails, approach artists, approach galleries,
01:05:20
approach collectors. They all like really, let's say
01:05:24
intelligent work. You sit in front of your laptop
01:05:28
and then you and then you organize your thought, you
01:05:31
deliver the project in this way. But to me, I mean, I'm not
01:05:38
denying I also like being curated like this.
01:05:40
Most of the work I have done in front of my laptop.
01:05:45
But to me, this project is so unique for me is I literally
01:05:52
like you said, I waved the whole project with my own bare hands.
01:05:56
And that's something I learned so much from this project
01:06:02
because because this kind of hand on experience cannot be
01:06:07
replaced by any kind of, you know, a laptop based work.
01:06:17
And again, and I, I feel when I was on the plane and when I was
01:06:22
carrying the luggage to another city, I feel like I kind of
01:06:28
understanding curator more like carrying and carrying.
01:06:34
And that was really refreshing. And I want to be a curator like
01:06:38
this because I felt a really deep pleasure of doing that.
01:06:44
And I know there was a lot of laborious work carrying around,
01:06:51
travelling around, but I'm not saying, but there was all this
01:06:56
labor, all this work. They are part of this whole
01:07:00
project, making this project available for more people,
01:07:04
making every participant comfortable with participating
01:07:08
to this project, making the connection, making the whole
01:07:13
atmosphere, the whole experience something into something that
01:07:19
they they kind of never experienced before.
01:07:23
It's something I really, really want to achieve and that drives
01:07:27
me to do that I. Think our conversation started
01:07:31
by us saying that idea that you thought you had.
01:07:34
Actually, many people have had that idea before.
01:07:38
You're just carrying that idea, right?
01:07:41
But the way you carry it and is at least making a decision of
01:07:47
carrying that and not something else.
01:07:50
So you are the person bringing that change.
01:07:53
Should that be celebrated as a heroic thing?
01:07:57
I don't think so. It's just a thing.
01:08:00
It's just an it's just an exhibit.
01:08:02
Even artists, I think shouldn't be celebrated like that.
01:08:05
Even Ursula K Le Guin should not be.
01:08:08
And she's the first one to say, this is not my idea, this is
01:08:11
Elizabeth. Elizabeth's idea so.
01:08:13
No one one should be put in a pedestal.
01:08:16
That's what I think. Not artists, not writers, not
01:08:19
curators, not podcasters, not older people, not younger
01:08:24
people. But it is a thing, it is a
01:08:28
reality that I have 20 year career, you have a five year
01:08:31
career. I know Portuguese history, you
01:08:36
know, I don't know what history you do.
01:08:38
And so we all have competences and we all bring something to
01:08:41
the table and we all have value. And I think that you, it's
01:08:47
important to know one's value. It's important to respect
01:08:50
others. But before you respect others,
01:08:52
you have to respect yourself as well.
01:08:54
And I think this consciousness of your, your perspective is
01:09:01
very important. And an empty box is not just an
01:09:06
empty box. Oh, it is made in a certain
01:09:09
material. Yeah.
01:09:11
It was designed in a certain way.
01:09:14
There's no neutrality. And also the same the same that
01:09:18
you put into the box also matters a lot.
01:09:23
Yeah, more so Yeah. So back to the the large box
01:09:26
project. I mean, without those artists,
01:09:29
those very open artists who are so excited with this kind of
01:09:35
idea and without their contribution, they are really,
01:09:38
really generous. Some of the the box they
01:09:41
submitted was like so beautiful, like a treasure box.
01:09:45
I. Have a question for you, which
01:09:46
is the, so the, the, the value of I, I'm intrigued by what you
01:09:51
said, which I, I don't think I've ever thought about, which
01:09:54
is this idea of carrying. I'm really interested in that
01:10:00
idea of being a carrier of something as a curator.
01:10:05
What does that mean in terms of action?
01:10:08
And what do you see yourself carrying beyond the artwork,
01:10:14
obviously. I think this is very, very good
01:10:20
question. And also been thinking about
01:10:22
that a lot. Like why would I like to
01:10:24
describe myself as a carrier instead of yeah, I found it's
01:10:30
more accurate than curator because cure is a cure.
01:10:35
Feels like I'm a doctor. I'm doing some surgery.
01:10:39
Absolutely. I'll do some surgery with to the
01:10:42
our work then they're not I'll or.
01:10:45
A Wellness, a Wellness provider because you're healing or
01:10:48
something? Yeah.
01:10:49
You're feeling something, but it's it's more like you kind of
01:10:53
presume that our work they are ill.
01:10:55
It makes me feel like I'm person who is walking on this journey
01:11:01
of being a curator. And on this journey in I might
01:11:06
encounter many things. I encountered you today.
01:11:09
Tomorrow I might encounter another person.
01:11:12
Even I'm watching ATV program, I encounter some sort.
01:11:18
So all these encounters are very important to me.
01:11:23
If I see myself as curator, I think.
01:11:25
That's really interesting point. It's a beautiful way of putting
01:11:29
it, I have to say. And also, I think the
01:11:31
interesting point is the personal.
01:11:34
Yeah. Was it intentional or do you
01:11:38
really believe that it's a personal personal?
01:11:42
Preference. That's curating is bound to the
01:11:52
person's experience. I would say very much so,
01:11:58
although we would try to, I would try to avoid, make
01:12:04
everything too personal. But The thing is, it's something
01:12:07
you can't really avoid. It's something because I'm a
01:12:12
person. In the end, I would definitely,
01:12:17
but my, my, my choice, I would say my choice might be made even
01:12:21
before me. So it might be made because of
01:12:25
my culture, because all the education I received, because
01:12:29
this whole environment is fading me with some informations.
01:12:33
Therefore I made my choice and this choice is made in by the
01:12:37
combination of my my personal preference and the wider,
01:12:43
broader quarter context. So I embrace my this this fact
01:12:51
that I might make some decision because this is my personal
01:12:56
decision, but also I think it's something more beyond it's
01:13:05
driven me to do that decision. Also the the description I just
01:13:11
used maybe a bit abstract, like a person carry a bag on a
01:13:15
journey. But I think this is the most
01:13:18
accurate way to describe my my feeling as being a curator.
01:13:24
Because you do encounter so many new things.
01:13:29
And the most important thing is having this open mind and always
01:13:34
aware that you are on the journey, that you are observing,
01:13:38
you are absorbing things around you, the informations.
01:13:44
And you feel responsible. You feel responsible because
01:13:49
because since you have this finish, this action of
01:13:52
collecting things, it was like, OK, this idea is so fascinating,
01:13:56
I need to put on my list and I will think about that later.
01:14:00
So. So to so to end this really
01:14:03
lovely conversation where I learnt so much and kind of
01:14:10
shifted perspectives, which I think is what this book is
01:14:14
about, is about shifting perspectives in a way that seems
01:14:17
so obvious and yet you haven't been looking at.
01:14:20
So I feel that that's what you brought to me today.
01:14:26
Why don't we choose the bits in the final part of the text that
01:14:32
you could read? So do you want to read your your
01:14:36
final paragraph towards the end? Yes, because this paragraph is
01:14:42
mentioned something we haven't yet mentioned, but I think it's
01:14:48
is good enough to understand what Laquin is trying to
01:14:52
suggest. So this paragraph is saying one
01:14:56
relationship among elements in the novel may well be that of
01:15:00
conflicts, but the reduction of narrative to conflicts is
01:15:05
absurd. Conflicts, competition, stress,
01:15:08
struggle, etcetera, within the narrative conceived as carrier
01:15:13
bag or belly or box or house or medicine bundle may be seen as
01:15:18
necessary elements of a whole, which itself cannot be
01:15:22
characterized either as conflicts or as harmony, since
01:15:26
its purpose is NASA resolution nor stasis, but continuing
01:15:32
process. Yeah, and what's funny is that
01:15:36
my exit is the next paragraph. That's good.
01:15:41
So this is really interesting because in some ways, do you
01:15:45
think she's saying that the the only she's not against conflict?
01:15:53
No. That conflict is just a small
01:15:56
part, yes. Is is she's trying to
01:16:00
decentralize the idea of conflicts because as you said at
01:16:06
the very beginning when you studied literature, you were
01:16:09
taught that the conflicts are they are men main reason to
01:16:13
drive the whole narrative. But for Laquaine, narrative is
01:16:18
just part of the story and the same with all the other elements
01:16:23
as a whole. And the final purpose for the
01:16:26
whole story of the whole story to interpret the ordinal.
01:16:31
So to incorporate in the conflicts is just trying to make
01:16:35
everything keep going. It's not.
01:16:39
The ultimate goal is not to highlight the result or the
01:16:44
outcome of this conflicts. And so in some ways, you're
01:16:49
having a really narrow perspective of what being alive
01:16:52
is, rather than expanding like you were saying in the
01:16:55
beginning, like that your goal is expansion, I highlighted.
01:16:59
So what comes next? Which is so she says, quote.
01:17:03
Finally, it's clear that the hero does not look well in this
01:17:08
bag. He needs a stage or a pedestal
01:17:12
or a pinnacle. You put him in a bag and he
01:17:15
looks like a rabbit, like a potato.
01:17:18
That is why I like novels instead of heroes.
01:17:21
They have people in them. Very beautiful.
01:17:27
She's incredible. What a small text.
01:17:30
I think it's probably going to be the smallest text, the
01:17:32
smallest text someone's going to bring to the art book club
01:17:36
segment And yet. And so.
01:17:39
Yeah. Well, thank you so, so, so, so
01:17:41
much. This was so pleasurable and so
01:17:44
enlightening and such a pleasure also to revisit this text.
01:17:47
So thank you so, so much, Catherine.
01:17:50
I mean, thank you. I mean, I, it was such a long
01:17:53
conversation, but for me was really, I mean, I was able to
01:17:57
keep energetic all the time because you were so, you know,
01:18:01
the conversation was so intriguing and you will always
01:18:05
be able to, you know, mention something that I also never
01:18:09
really think about before. And you let me to, because let
01:18:14
me to, to reflect on my projects once again, to reflect on my
01:18:18
career as curator or my perception of being a curator
01:18:23
once again. I mean, this is lovely.
01:18:27
Thank you so much, Joanna. Listen, I hope you come back.
01:18:30
And to you, dear listeners, thank you so much for sticking
01:18:35
around. This has been a huge pleasure.
01:18:38
Catherine did say it was a very long conversation, so you will
01:18:42
know that this will have been edited quite a bit.
01:18:45
We did talk for more than two hours, so yeah, thanks again and
01:18:50
bye bye. Exhibition Nesters is an
01:18:52
independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna Pyar
01:18:56
Nevers. We have episodes every two weeks
01:19:00
and this season, season 3, is a bit of a turning point.
01:19:03
We have 5 new episode types, from more experimental art
01:19:08
travel logs or art stories to conversational formats about
01:19:14
solo exhibitions with people who are not part of the industry.
01:19:18
Because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life.
01:19:23
If you're new here, you have a whole catalog of episodes to
01:19:28
enjoy this cover them at your own pace.