ART BOOK CLUB is a segment where a guest suggests a book which was not written with contemporary art in mind and yet is a source of inspiration, guidance and / or creativity for their work. Hosted by Joana P. R. Neves.
Catherine Li chose: Ursula K. Le Guin
THE CARRIER BAG THEORY OF FICTION
It's a very very short text that can basically change your life.
With a simple shift in narrative, Le Guin demonstrates how we can totally change the STORY.
But... how does this apply to curating?
#curators #artpodcast #artbook
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What you get from this episode: Curating revelations, unexpected curating methods, lessons in community, art philosophies, ethical art questions.
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For behind the scenes clips, links to the artists and guests we cover, and visuals of the exhibitions we discuss follow us on Instagram: @exhibitionistas_podcastBluesky: @exhibitionistas.bsky.socialexhibitionistaspod@gmail.com
00:00 Intro 00:05:10 What does a curator do?00:09:57 The book over which Joana and Catherine bonded00:15:29 The Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction00:23:16 An exhibition the size of a lunchbox00:33:22 Ideas and practicalities of curating00:40:49 Le Guin’s critique of the hero-centric story00:45:55 The curator: hero, opinion maker?00:52:09 Feminism, pre-history and curating00:59:49 The curator as a carrier01:07:23 Traditions and experimentations in curating01:16:59 Le Guin’s vision: process rather than conflict
#contemporaryart #ursulakleguin #howtomakeart #artexhibitions #catherineli #exhibitionistas #exhibitionistaspodcast #joanaprneves #artbook #artbookclub #bookclub #painting #contemporarypainting #londonart #museum #londonmuseum #artpodcast #artconversations #arttalk #talkart #greatwomenartists #sciencefiction #drawing #museums #artisttalk #artpodcast #artgallery
00:00:00
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Exhibition Esters,
00:00:02
this is Joanna PR Nevis. I am an independent curator and
00:00:07
writer and the hosts of this podcast.
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For those who follow the podcast regularly, of course you notice
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that the last episode did not drop and the reason is very
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simple. I was travelling for work for
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the most part of three weeks. If you needed any proof that
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this is a one woman show, that's it, You have it.
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Sometimes these things happen as it so happens to catch the flu,
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which is precisely why my voice sounds a bit different today.
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But I'm so, so, so excited to introduce this new episode to
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you. Which, by the way, is also a new
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segment called Art Book Club. And I'm so proud of this
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segment. I'm very proud of this episode.
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It was not easy. I have to tell you not to drop
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the episodes because I am a perfectionist.
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I like everything to be impeccable.
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But also, this is an independent podcast.
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And if you needed any more incentives to finally click on
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that link and donate, I think this is it, isn't it?
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You know, this podcast cannot exist without you, and it can
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only thrive if you become a member.
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So there's many ways to do it. You can go on the show's notes.
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So that's the little blurb below the title of the episode.
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It's a sort of a description of the episode that you find on all
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platforms, all podcasts platforms, and you have very,
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very different ways to contribute.
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You can subscribe to the sub stack, which by the same token
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is a way for you to subscribe to the newsletter.
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So as you know, I'm a writer, I don't do newsletters.
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I find them a waste of time, a waste of space.
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So usually what I do with the newsletters is that if they
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become a sort of a a text, it they're also filled with links,
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information about the episodes. This is a segment that I.
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Decided to create. While talking to my guests,
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Catherine Lee, the books that my guests bring to the segment were
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not written with contemporary art in mind.
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So that's the rule, That's the rule of the game.
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It has to be a book that is not about contemporary art.
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And we found out in conversation that one book for us, for both
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of us, was incredibly important for our idea or notion of what
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curating is. If you don't know what curating
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is, basically it's perceptualizing, creating,
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organizing, promoting exhibitions.
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I think that the beauty of the fact that you can be influenced
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by a book or an author, a vision that speaks about something
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other than your job and bringing it into your own craft, means
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that even if you're not a curator, you can always take
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something from these episodes. I'll tell you a little secret.
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I listen to a lot of podcasts about business, about stand up
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comedy, acting, because having methodologies from other areas
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can be useful to your own. So for example, at a certain
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moment, believe it or not, I was really stuck when it came to
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public speaking. So I started listening a lot to
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stand up comedians who talk about their craft.
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And it really inspired me to see how they develop an idea, how
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they verbalize it, how they lead you to the pun, how they deliver
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the pun. And it helped me quite a bit.
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So there's always information you can get that you can apply
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to your own area and. This guest, let me tell you.
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Does not disappoint. She is such an original thinker.
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So I can tell you now that the book she chose to bring is
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Ursula K Le Guin's very, very, very, very short text The
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Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. We find out that a very, very
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small shift in perspective can include a whole community of
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people. So without further ado, I will.
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Leave. You to the episode, As for
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myself, I am going back to bed but you, I hope you enjoy this
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episode as much as I did recording it.
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And don't forget, click on those links.
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Help me continue this amazing adventure that is
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exhibitionists. Let's do this.
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Welcome to the segment Art Book Club.
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This is a segment where my guests bring a book that has not
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been particularly written with contemporary art or even visual
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art in mind, but which somehow, either on a personal level or in
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the collective level, it has entered the contemporary art
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Canon. It's my honor to welcome to
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exhibitionists this for the first time, the independent
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curator Catherine. Catherine is a london-based
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curator. She's very interested in her
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curating activities and projects in site specific events, also in
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participatory events or projects or exhibitions.
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She's also interested in digital archives and much more than
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that. So, Catherine, welcome to
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exhibitionistas. Thank you.
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Hi, Joanna. Hi.
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Thank you for inviting me for this amazing project.
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One of the opening you hosted in your project space, we were
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talking about random topics about how that it feels like to
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being a curator. And obviously our conversation,
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there's a gap between two of us. As you know, we haven't met
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before officially and we have different experience.
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You are much more experienced in the industry.
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I'm a emerging curator who just, you know, engaging this industry
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for like 5 years or even less so.
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And I was amazed by how quick we bonded with each other.
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Yeah, with really quick and simple question, but.
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That's because you asked the question, didn't you?
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You asked the question that kind of let me a bit taken about not
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taken aback, but I will. It made me think, so do you want
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to say yeah? Yeah, I guess because I always
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question about the role as a curator and and we all know that
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curator came from the word. Cure kudai.
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Kudai in Latin. Yeah, yeah.
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So, and I was asking you if you can choose one word or three
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words to substitute the word curator, what would you choose?
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Yeah. Would you want to try it again?
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Yes, yes, sure. I don't remember what I told you
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because weirdly I think I've had two conversations recently about
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that. And I remember, I don't know if
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it was with you. I remember saying, for me, a
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curator is a space specialist looking at a space,
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understanding a space and with everything that it means, it can
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be the demographic of the people who goes into the space, the
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space where the space is located.
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So the the geography, all of it. Did I answer that at the time?
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I don't remember. No, we yes, you, you mentioned
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the space. You mentioned that you know, you
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reimagine the space is a huge the most fascinating part for
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for curation because you you said you would like thinking
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about the work. Imagine, you know how the
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effects are going to be look like once you put all the work
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and you will put yourself into the shoes as a audience and then
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you just re you know, just walk into the space over and over
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again to re experience the whole space yes, and I remembered that
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very well and then I think that's was the point.
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I all the sudden remembered the book carrier back theory of
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fiction and I said I want to be a if I can find a word to
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substitute the word curator, I want to be a carrier back.
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And this morning I was thinking, is that something new that like
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recently I because I read this book, then I think about this
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concept. But actually I had a similar
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thought like five years ago. I remember I was in the
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interview for the curating course for Royal College of Art
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and I didn't go because the tuition fee was too high.
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I went to Saint Joseph Martin 1 instead.
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But I remember I was being asked to answer the question of how?
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How do you see in a curator? I said, I see a curator as an
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empty box, an empty box that is capable for anything, no matter
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it's beautiful or not beautiful. And that is something I just all
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the sudden remembered you. Remember that?
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Yes. And then this is such an
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interesting coincidence because when I read the carrier bag was
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Oh my God, the idea is so refreshing for me as a curator.
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I want to be a curator or person who carrying a bag all the time.
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And I saw this something really innovating and refreshing.
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And actually, I had the same thought five years ago without
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reading a single piece of writing like this.
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And I have very limited experience, like practical
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experience. I just finished my BA and I
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haven't really stepped into the the real industry.
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Like, yeah, so that was. That's fascinating because this
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being an art book club, so about books, I'm really interested in
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the fact that you read a book that in some ways resonated with
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an instinct that you had before. Yeah.
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And you found in this book something that you were actually
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thinking about on your own. And I think that's really
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fascinating because sometimes we have this idea of writers,
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thinkers, authors as the these people who bring a sort of
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enlightenment to the masses who are learning from them.
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But actually, it's a collective effort.
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And I think Ursula K Le Guin talks about that in the book,
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about this idea of community and about the fact that you are
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building something with someone else.
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Yeah. And that the fact that you
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thought about that and the fact that we are thinking in terms of
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empty spaces where we have to bring something in is really
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interesting in the sense that it is almost as if it's like a
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Platonic idea where ideas are somewhere and they're external
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from us and we just kind of convey them at a certain point
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and also brings we also bring them into certain specific
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contexts. So to explain to our listeners
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how so, how this conversation unfolded.
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So you were talking about curating and I remember that
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when you mentioned the book The Carrier Back Theory of Fiction
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by Ursula K Le Guin as being imported for curating, I
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remember saying what what? You know, I was so surprised
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because it is a really important book for me as well.
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And that's why I wanted you to be the 1st guest of this
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segment, because I was fascinated by the fact that a
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book that has nothing to do with curation suddenly was bringing 2
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curators together who both loved the book, probably for very
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different reasons. And one of them actually had had
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the idea before and kind of met Ursula K Le Guin halfway, Yeah,
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while already having thought about this empty space.
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So do you want to talk a little bit about this idea that you
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have of being really focused in place, so exhibitions that are
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either on public spaces or oriented towards a site specific
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or a site where they happen, the idea of participation.
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So what in your career has have you organized that would
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correspond to these ideas well? I think that this question links
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to to many different theories like the poetic of space.
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So in terms of the space related practice, I did a lot of
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research towards participatory art and my question was always
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about how a space is able to cultivate a community and and
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through participation, how a community or people entering the
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space could make changes to the space.
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And then this kind of everlasting interaction make
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both the space and the community growing.
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And this idea fascinates me. And that's really parallel with
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this one of the core idea in this book of carrier bag theory
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of fiction, which means, you know, La Queen was suggesting
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you, you have a bag, you put the things that you found interested
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into this bag. And and this bag is holding for
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all the voices, all the experience, all the
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relationships that all happening just within this tiny space.
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So she is not suggesting, you know, you have to expand your
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practice into like massive space, but in a way she is
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suggesting another way you put everything you know as small as
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possible space to make them to say what's going to happen.
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So wait, wait. Wait, I'm going to stop you
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there. Yes.
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Because that's fascinating and I know what you're going to talk
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about, which is a project of yours.
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But first of all, let's introduce the the text properly.
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Yes. So Ursula K Le Guin, author,
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she's known as a science fiction writer, to be very specific.
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She was born on October 21st, 1929.
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She passed away recently, seven years ago in on the 22nd of
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January of 2018. She's a Californian born there.
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She lived there and she developed her work there.
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She had a few stints in Europe. She was a Fulbright scholar.
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So she came to Paris to study where she met her husband.
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Then she went back and then she had another stint in Europe to
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to study much later. But she's basically, she was a
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california-based author and she wrote poetry, she started as a
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poet, she wrote short stories. She's mainly known as a science
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fiction writer, but she also wrote absolutely mind blowing
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essays. I think she's a marvellous
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essayist because she knows how to write about complicated
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things in simple terms. So do you want to introduce the
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book? So the book is called The
00:16:47
Carrier Back Theory of Fiction. Oh, we have the same one.
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Yes, look at that. We have exactly this.
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And it says used up and dirty and folded.
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Yours as much as mine. Exactly, exactly.
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Thank you so much for allowing me to introduce this amazing
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text because it's also a good opportunity for me to return to
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this text as it's always so refreshing and inspiring every
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time when I go back because it's always reconnects me to my
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recent thought, to my surroundings, my recent
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encounters. And it's always give me a really
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refreshing idea of how how I can, you know, deal with those
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sorts. And actually, I was thinking
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about this introduction. I found it so challenging
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because the whole text is so short and the idea is actually
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so simple and straightforward. But the depths of it, the
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constellation of salt is sparks actually make any kind of grave
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introduction with reduced is what this text want to open up.
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So I mean, Ouch, I'm sure. You can do.
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It I'm sure you can do it. So in short, the Carrier Back
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serial of fiction was written by Ursula K Lequin in 1986, and it
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was first published in Woman of Vision Essays by Woman Writing
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Science Fiction edited by Dennis DuPont in 1988.
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So it is very short radical essay that reimagines both
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culture, human history and storytelling based on feminist
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anthropology, which we can expand on that later.
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She suggested that the first human toll was not a weapon, but
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a contender, a bag for carrying and sharing.
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From this she challenges the weapon shaped or spare shaped
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hero center story for battles and conquers, etcetera.
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She was proposing that that fiction can be a carrier back, a
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vessel for many voices, everyday experience and collective
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survival. So today this idea continues
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influence feminist ecological writing and as well As for
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artists and curators is is also play a very important role to
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tell us what is another story, what is a more relational ways
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of storytelling. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a
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wonderful book. It is true that it has.
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I mean, Ursula K Le Guin has had a sort of a revival or maybe
00:19:50
discovery, I have to say, not being someone who has had a an
00:19:56
English education. So I arrived as a grown up to
00:19:59
the UK already. I came to Ursula K Le Guin
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through Donna Haraway. So I was reading Donna Haraway,
00:20:07
who has also become a name that has been.
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Kind of thrown around between curators and and contemporary
00:20:16
art thinkers and philosophers. And Donna Harroway is someone
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who is, she has a scientific background, but she now is a
00:20:26
teacher of new ideas. I think the course she teaches
00:20:31
has a very strange name, like a sort of new ideas and narratives
00:20:35
in contemporary and epistemology.
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You know, something like this. And I remember reading Donna
00:20:41
Harroway Way specifically about sustainability and about notions
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of ecology and how to be, how to shift your perspective in order
00:20:51
to align yourself with the Earth and the planet, the biosphere.
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And she kept referencing as La Que Le Guin.
00:21:01
And one day I was in a bookshop and I saw this little book and I
00:21:04
thought, oh, this is a great way to read the first story by
00:21:08
science fiction author Ursula K Le Guin.
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And little did I know, it was an essay.
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So I was really not expecting to read this.
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And it was a really important moment for me.
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I remember reading this and being feeling elated by the text
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and as you say so well, feeling a bit stupid because it's such a
00:21:36
simple idea at the same time, like you say, so well, like what
00:21:42
if the most important objects? And I'm fascinated by
00:21:48
prehistory, by the way, I read a lot about prehistory.
00:21:51
Mm hmm. And I'm not a specialist,
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obviously, but I try to read as much as I can.
00:21:55
And I remember thinking, why did I never think about that?
00:22:00
Because obviously when you are a person, perhaps nomadic,
00:22:05
building houses from natural materials that you have to build
00:22:08
and build over again than to try and fight food.
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Isn't it obvious that the first thing you need is something to
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carry the fruits that you have collected for you and for your
00:22:19
friends? I remembered.
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I remembered me so I when I was when I was a kid, I was
00:22:25
fascinated by the the novel called Robinson a Crusoe.
00:22:30
Me too, yes. And I like, I like the novel so
00:22:34
much, I read it over and over again because it's so
00:22:37
fascinating to see a human being from modern society and all the
00:22:41
sudden through to an island and you have to rebuild everything
00:22:44
from scratch. And I remember very clearly that
00:22:48
the I couldn't. We need to revisit, revisit
00:22:51
that. That's the next art book class.
00:22:54
I think that's your next episode with Exhibition Esters I.
00:22:58
Remember very vividly there was 1 chapter.
00:23:02
It's talking about how Robinson is making the pot.
00:23:06
And it was right there, wasn't it?
00:23:08
And. That was right there and we
00:23:09
never like have this kind of really clear sort of which toe
00:23:15
was most useful you. Haven't told us how you have
00:23:19
come across the book. How did you find out about it?
00:23:23
When did you read it? How did you feel about it?
00:23:26
How? How did that happen?
00:23:28
How did you encounter this book? So it was very interesting and
00:23:34
also surprising. So like 2 years ago actually
00:23:38
last year, I did a artistic change project which I call out
00:23:45
for all London artist to submit a artist lunch box to me.
00:23:52
And therefore I could carry all the lunch box to Vienna because
00:23:59
I'm going to do a curatorial residency over there.
00:24:02
So I'm going to stay in Vienna for like 10 days.
00:24:05
So I'm going to carry all the lunch box to Vienna and meet
00:24:09
another bunch of artist and then another bunch of each artist
00:24:13
from Vienna would receive 1 lunch box that prepares by
00:24:17
London artist. And then the Vienna artist could
00:24:21
use the the launch books that made by London artist to to
00:24:27
create a new work. And then one of the artists who
00:24:32
is was participating from London when he was submitting his books
00:24:37
to me, he said, oh, your projects.
00:24:40
You should read the this text by Ursula Queen because your
00:24:44
project sounds really similar with what is this books the book
00:24:50
suggesting. And I was like, oh, tell me
00:24:53
more. And then I got this book and
00:24:56
then I read it in Vienna actually during my residency.
00:25:02
Found it fascinating because what I was suggesting for the
00:25:06
artist to do with the the lunch box because it's not actually
00:25:10
asking people to prepare actual lunch.
00:25:13
Instead, I asked everyone to find a box, a lunch box, for
00:25:18
example, and and look at your studio or your home or wherever
00:25:25
your practice is based in and put materials that is unwanted,
00:25:32
wasted or sabotaged in your studio into this very little box
00:25:39
prompt was a really, really, really I will say open yes, even
00:25:45
you give me a a box of air. You say there's an air from a
00:25:49
studio. That's even fine as long as you
00:25:51
tell me is this an air from your studio?
00:25:56
So it's like anything object based or not object based,
00:26:01
saying this is all fine. It can't be valuable thing.
00:26:05
It can't be. And for example, if you're a
00:26:09
pantel, you have off cut from your canvas a draft or a scat
00:26:16
that you just thrown away and you don't want to really thrown
00:26:20
away because you still want to keep in your studio in case you
00:26:23
need it one day, things like that.
00:26:26
But I also give a little bit a suggestion that I hope those
00:26:30
materials or this whole box can reflect you and your practice,
00:26:36
but it has to be not unvaluable stuff like like rubbish, it has
00:26:42
to be rubbish, things like that. And and then I, I did that open
00:26:48
call and just in 10 days I received 25 boxes was so funny.
00:26:54
And people just carry little box and come to me.
00:26:56
And then and then, and then the the artist who was so funny, the
00:27:02
artist who was recommending me this book, he told me, Oh, this
00:27:06
practice is amazing because, you know, you always retreat your
00:27:14
studio space as a, let's say, a sacred space, A sacred space for
00:27:20
producing artworks. And those artworks have to be,
00:27:24
you know, go out of the, you know, get out from the studio,
00:27:29
go to the galleries and be ready for the critiques from the
00:27:35
public and curators. And then once you start looking
00:27:41
of every corner of your studio, it's just so funny that because
00:27:46
you now you all finally realize the whole ecosystem that you
00:27:50
build into the studio and those little things that grown up with
00:27:55
you, they are maybe they are rubbish.
00:27:58
They are drafts, they are sketches.
00:28:02
They are like, you know, finish the tubes or cut off woods or
00:28:08
stretch a bars. You've been accumulating all
00:28:10
this, but all to solve this essential goal of the studio
00:28:15
practice, which is producing artwork.
00:28:17
But because you're so focusing on this artwork production, you
00:28:22
almost forget all this little thing that around you.
00:28:25
And he found this practice fascinating because because once
00:28:30
you put your eyes, put your attention to these little
00:28:34
things, the whole studio is like a total different thing to you.
00:28:37
It's like another world. It's like what you said, it's an
00:28:40
ecosystem. It's a ecosystem.
00:28:42
Everything participates, even the unwanted things like you
00:28:47
said, participate and have an active role in this ecosystem.
00:28:51
That's what the artist meant, right?
00:28:54
Yes, and then and then once he starts to put in some because he
00:28:58
need to be selective to you know, to put things into that
00:29:02
very box. So and he realised, Oh my God,
00:29:07
some little things that he never noticed actually contribute a
00:29:10
huge pot. Maybe like for example, a
00:29:12
biscuit box that he always ate like kind of biscuit he always
00:29:16
eat during the studio practice. And then you now you have really
00:29:20
refreshing salt out these biscuits because you have this
00:29:23
intimate relationship with this very kind of biscuit.
00:29:28
And then he put everything into that box, even a sock.
00:29:32
I remembered very well about his when I opened the box.
00:29:39
So that Oh my God, this box smell like the other world.
00:29:46
So imagine like all the things and also the small things he
00:29:50
made and like little object, he's also making sculptures
00:29:56
using found objects. So this little object he found
00:29:58
is really difficult to use, but he don't want, he doesn't want
00:30:03
to throw them away. So he kind of accumulated them
00:30:06
in the corner of the studio and he's found.
00:30:09
Oh my God, that's fascinating because once you start putting
00:30:12
everything in this box, you just feel like your whole journey of
00:30:16
student practice is condensed in this tiny box and and it feels
00:30:23
like they are not trash anymore. They become the most valuable
00:30:28
thing. They become a new piece of work.
00:30:31
It's called Jacob Clayton, a London-based artist and whose
00:30:35
practice is about about paintings, about fond objects
00:30:40
and also things that are playful as.
00:30:43
Soon as you talked about the books, I thought about Marcel
00:30:46
Duchamp, because he really did think a lot about art, like we
00:30:52
think about curating with as much love as a sharp critical
00:31:00
sense as well. And he also created what he
00:31:04
called in French La boet en vallis, which means the books in
00:31:09
the suitcase or the books as suitcase.
00:31:13
And so he created a museum in a box with images, right, of his
00:31:20
own work. And I remember being also really
00:31:24
struck by this and being really interested because I think as
00:31:28
curators, we always think about the museum with reverence, but
00:31:34
also with a sort of a healthy distance also of the artificial
00:31:40
setting that the museum can be as well.
00:31:42
Would you agree with that? How did you come?
00:31:45
How you agree only with the respect, not with the distance.
00:31:49
Or the distance. Yes I do.
00:31:51
I do agree with the distance. Yes, I know the distance create
00:31:54
the aura. Yes, it creates the aura, but
00:31:59
also in some ways we kind of also know that exhibitions occur
00:32:06
in many of the kinds of spaces other than museums.
00:32:10
So artists run spaces, pop up spaces, spaces that are not
00:32:15
white cubes. It's very rare that actually you
00:32:17
get to exhibit work in in a white cube.
00:32:20
But then you also start to kind of deliriously think, okay, So
00:32:25
what if everything? What if the world was a museum
00:32:29
and everything was? And there's a film called
00:32:35
Midnight Cowboy, I think, where at a certain time William
00:32:39
Burroughs is walking in the street.
00:32:42
So the the writer and with his cane, I think he has a cane and
00:32:46
he's showing, he's pointing at things with his cane and he's
00:32:49
saying this is a work of art this and he's just pointing at
00:32:54
things that make up the urban space basically.
00:32:58
So as curators, we do end up in this kind of delirium of what a
00:33:03
space can be and what an exhibition space can be.
00:33:07
So I'm, I'm pretty sure that you have, I mean, the way the reason
00:33:12
why you thought about the lunch boxes may be rooted in very
00:33:16
practical reasons, but also very aneric or kind of delirious
00:33:21
reasons. How did you come to the idea so?
00:33:24
It was very practical because they are portable.
00:33:28
Exactly. Which is what Duchamp said about
00:33:32
his own easy e-mail box. I I saw, I saw his his project
00:33:39
outlines well after I made this because I was looking for
00:33:44
reference to, you know, find similar projects like, you know,
00:33:50
yeah, maybe resonate with me, but in different aspects.
00:33:53
So because I was doing this curatorial rest dancing was
00:33:58
supported by Austrian Culture Forum in London and they were
00:34:03
supporting me to do a research trip in Vienna for like 10 days.
00:34:11
And then my goal, they were asking me as a contracted
00:34:15
independent curator, they will ask me to select like 5 artists
00:34:21
from Vienna, like Vienna based 5 artists to collaborate with
00:34:27
another 5 artists I selected from London to do a final
00:34:32
exhibition. And and the selection based on
00:34:37
my the same that I came up at the time, which is making making
00:34:42
expensive. I was interested in how artists
00:34:46
can use one single materials to make things expensive.
00:34:50
It can be tangible, inexpensive like huge.
00:34:53
I yeah, I did selected one artist who make huge things or
00:34:58
you can come up with tiny ideas, but you are so obsessed with
00:35:02
this tiny idea, you just keep repeating, repeating, repeating.
00:35:06
So some artists I selected also their practice also involves
00:35:10
reputation. So I had this very initial idea,
00:35:16
but I found it's really limiting for me to just like 5 artists
00:35:21
from both London and Vienna. And I want to expand this idea
00:35:27
and, and then I, I was thinking, OK, I'm going to stay in Vienna
00:35:32
for more than 10 days. I can definitely do more things
00:35:35
than just, you know, like having conversation with artists or,
00:35:40
you know, visiting museum. I can definitely do something
00:35:42
more interactive with local artist.
00:35:47
And then I was thinking like how I can make something make the
00:35:52
connection better between the London art thing and Vienna art
00:35:56
thing. I need to start from people and
00:36:01
and then, but I need to find a really key portal for them to
00:36:07
connect with each other and and it has to be practical because I
00:36:12
don't have budget to support me bring a massive projects back
00:36:17
and forth or that's. What I wanted to get to because
00:36:21
I love the fact that in the book, the, the first thing that
00:36:28
is mentioned is food as a sort of a really basic, we'll go into
00:36:34
that. So I, I will explain that later,
00:36:37
but one of the references made is the way people fed themselves
00:36:42
in prehistory in the book, in the in Asla K Lewin's text.
00:36:46
And what I loved about that text is that it connects the most
00:36:52
world building value oriented theory through the most
00:36:59
practical thing, which is how to keep alive, how to get food and
00:37:05
what kind of diet to have in order to have a good living and
00:37:09
to raise kids and to just live as a community.
00:37:14
And you raise this issue and in curating, a lot of the times you
00:37:20
have that terrifying situation where you have an idea for a
00:37:25
project, but then you have the shipping costs and then you have
00:37:30
also the costs that come with building a sonography in the
00:37:35
space. So there's a lot of costs that
00:37:37
people don't think about when you're creating an exhibition
00:37:40
and when you're making decisions for an exhibition, particularly
00:37:44
exhibitions. There are these kind of programs
00:37:46
of, oh, we're going to connect this city and that other city.
00:37:50
And then as a curator, you're like, you have 2000 lbs of
00:37:54
budget and you think this cannot work.
00:37:56
I'm not. I don't want to say that you had
00:37:58
a very small budget. That's not what I'm saying.
00:38:00
I'm exaggerate is hyperbole, but those are kind of the people
00:38:06
think of curators as dealing with big ideas, but we also deal
00:38:09
with very, very, very practical things, which I think is why
00:38:13
this book resonates so much with curating as well.
00:38:16
Yeah, you have to survive and in order to survive, we have to
00:38:20
come up with the most simple, but we think it's innovative
00:38:26
ideas yes and another important thing is, is then another core
00:38:32
point from this book is how to make thing more collective,
00:38:37
because you need to think about you know, you need to be able to
00:38:42
create something, a quick space that is capable to hold more
00:38:45
things, more voices to me for this project the same and I hate
00:38:50
this. I mean, I of course, I enjoy, I
00:38:52
have this kind of power, I have to admit it, to be able to
00:38:56
select the artist I like to collaborate with towards the
00:39:01
exhibition in the end. But the same time I hate this
00:39:04
idea because I was, I would think why the how I, I, why
00:39:11
should be me holding this power of selecting those artists and
00:39:16
artists they need to be selected in most of cases.
00:39:20
And then why I should have this killing power, you know, and I
00:39:24
hate this, that that's why I found participatory art is so
00:39:29
fascinating because you give people options and, and these
00:39:34
options are open for to everyone.
00:39:40
You can participate if you like. So this is like more mutual
00:39:45
beneficial collaboration instead of me giving you opportunity.
00:39:50
So I, so that's why I want to create this kind of open call
00:39:54
based participatory art. So people submit as they like,
00:39:59
and people can participate to interpret the launch box
00:40:02
afterwards as they want. So, and that opens up, opens for
00:40:07
more voices and, and I don't have to do the selection.
00:40:12
And I remembered when I was collecting the box, I was
00:40:16
carrying my luggage, I was collecting.
00:40:20
So some artists, they submit to me in person, but some of them
00:40:24
they said if it would be great if you, you can help if you can
00:40:28
collect the box and I'm happy to do that.
00:40:30
So I did a really quick travel around London between artist
00:40:34
studios and I was collecting with my luggage and one of the
00:40:37
artists said, Oh my God, I like this open call because you are
00:40:40
not selecting. It's like she was hugging me
00:40:46
like, I like this whale of, you know, you organize an open call.
00:40:49
Another thing that, as Lake Lequin does, is to challenge,
00:40:56
yeah, the notion of the hero. Yeah, so.
00:40:59
She kind of gives you a, a starting point to the book where
00:41:05
you think she's headed towards an explanation of what's the
00:41:11
structure of storytelling, what makes a good story.
00:41:15
And so she starts by describing something really interesting,
00:41:20
which is that contrary to what we believe it was.
00:41:26
So the the prehistoric and Neolithic diet was very much
00:41:33
veg, vegetable based, not based, perhaps adding bugs and mollusks
00:41:41
as she says, and little rats, rabbits.
00:41:45
So there wasn't much hunting. And so she says something that I
00:41:49
find really, really interesting, which again comes to this notion
00:41:53
of practicalities, which is that the average, so I'm quoting
00:41:58
here, the average prehistoric person could make a nice living
00:42:02
in about a 15 hour work week, end of quotes.
00:42:07
And so she's saying that because of foraging, basically because
00:42:12
there was a real knowledge of the environment, you knew where
00:42:15
the rabbit would come if you really needed some protein.
00:42:19
But basically she's very focused on wild oats because oats really
00:42:25
are extremely nourishing and are the basis of the foods that was
00:42:30
apparently or at the time, I don't know how studies are at at
00:42:34
the moment, but at the time was a big part of the basis of food.
00:42:39
And so she talks about these 15 hours of subsistence as leading
00:42:45
to a really nice life where people who could sing would sing
00:42:50
by the fire, those who could sew would sew.
00:42:53
Those who could be funny were making, you know, a spectacle of
00:42:57
themselves to make other people laugh.
00:42:59
But remained the skilless people, the people who didn't
00:43:04
have any particular talent, who maybe were getting a bit bored
00:43:08
and so therefore decided to go hunting big games.
00:43:12
So hunting the mammoth. And I love how she shifts.
00:43:16
And I remember reading this at the time, and not quite because
00:43:19
she speaks in the first person. So she puts herself in the place
00:43:23
of someone. He was a prehistoric person.
00:43:25
Yeah. And she says so quote.
00:43:29
It is hard to tell a real gripping tale of how I wrested a
00:43:33
wild oats seed from its husk. And then another, and then
00:43:36
another, and then another and then another.
00:43:39
And then I scratched my nut bites and all said something
00:43:43
funny. And we went to the Creek and got
00:43:45
a drink and watched newts for a while and then I found another
00:43:49
patch of oats. UN quote.
00:43:51
So she's talking in the first person and she's saying, I can't
00:43:55
fight, right? My story isn't as interesting as
00:44:01
the story that the hunters are bringing into the community.
00:44:05
So what they're bringing is not only an action, but they're also
00:44:09
bringing a hero. So the story not only has
00:44:12
action, it has a hero. It is powerful.
00:44:16
And so as I was reading this, I was thinking, oh, so she's
00:44:19
giving us the structure of, you know, basically the basic thing
00:44:25
that you study when you're studying literature in school,
00:44:29
which is you need to have this, and then you need to have a
00:44:31
crisis. And then someone solves the
00:44:33
crisis. There's an opposition, then
00:44:35
there's a victory, and then the story's over.
00:44:38
And I was a bit disappointed until she flips the scripts,
00:44:43
which I should have seen coming, obviously, when she started
00:44:47
talking about the skill as people who become hunters and
00:44:50
that she changes the perspective completely by bringing up
00:44:57
Virginia Woolf. It's a really like you say, it's
00:45:01
a very simple text, but she goes very far.
00:45:03
So she brings Virginia Woolf up and then she brings someone who
00:45:07
I didn't know who was Elizabeth Fisher.
00:45:11
He was a a writer and an editor who published the book called
00:45:15
Women's. Well, actually the she doesn't
00:45:17
quote the whole title in the text, so the book is called
00:45:22
Women. 'S creation, sexual evolution
00:45:25
and the shaping of society. Exactly.
00:45:28
And it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in 1979 and I
00:45:33
think published in 1977. So suddenly the the story is
00:45:39
completely flipped. The perspectives are completely
00:45:41
different, and that's when I was hit like a ton of bricks by
00:45:46
reading this thing. And it is a little bit.
00:45:50
There's a parallel there with the notion of the curator as
00:45:54
Hero did. Did you?
00:45:56
Yeah, it's like what I just mentioned, Like I don't want to
00:45:59
have that kind of superpower of being able to save or kill
00:46:04
certain people. Exactly.
00:46:07
That's why I feel so resonated ways and also if we look ahead,
00:46:13
there are someone who is more super, have more superpowers,
00:46:17
more like a hero and someone is beyond my league and I can't
00:46:22
even see him or or shave or they and I can't.
00:46:27
Maybe I will be realized when I was killed.
00:46:30
I mean all the sudden, you know what I mean?
00:46:32
Like it's really, it's, it's really parallel with this whole
00:46:37
world. I mean, especially art industry,
00:46:39
there's always certain powerful or dominating voices that
00:46:45
leading the trend or or manipulating the market that we
00:46:50
can't even say. Yeah, we can't name names well
00:46:56
the the opinion maker. Well, in the past we can.
00:46:59
For example, when I studied curating, I remember that my
00:47:03
teachers who were basically male, I, I must say, were had
00:47:09
this reverence towards Harold Zeman, for example, who was
00:47:15
presented as this genius. So suddenly there was a shift
00:47:22
when I was younger and studied philosophy and then went into
00:47:26
aesthetics and then decided to do a master's in curating
00:47:29
studies. There was this shift between the
00:47:32
artist as the hero. And then I was fed this story as
00:47:36
no, no, no, you are the hero. The curator is the hero.
00:47:40
You're the one who is the opinion maker.
00:47:43
Look at Harold Zeman and I remember because I come from
00:47:47
literature, from my first love was writing literature, fiction,
00:47:52
and I remember when attitudes become form.
00:47:55
So the name of the big document exhibition that Zaman curated I
00:48:01
believe in 196869. So I remember live in your head
00:48:08
when attitudes become form this mega title.
00:48:12
And being someone who's very, very taken by words, I remember
00:48:17
thinking, Oh my, Oh my, this is such an incredible title.
00:48:22
This is life changing because it doesn't really describe or
00:48:26
doesn't, it doesn't. It's not contained by movements,
00:48:30
names of movements. It kind of opens up the minds to
00:48:34
whatever everyone was doing at the time.
00:48:37
And you kind of are fascinated by this figure.
00:48:41
And I was much more interested in the way he had come to that
00:48:48
vision of things rather than how he worked.
00:48:54
What was possible. Why were the names?
00:48:58
Why was that group of artists important at the time?
00:49:03
But one must also say that Harold Zaman then curated
00:49:08
another exhibition where artists invited friends.
00:49:14
So there was this idea which kind of opened up the scope of
00:49:20
who, of the decisional power of the curator.
00:49:25
But maybe it also emphasized what you were just describing,
00:49:29
which is as an opinion maker. A curator invites the people
00:49:33
they know and organizes exhibitions with their friends.
00:49:38
And to me, I, I always like keep questioning myself every time
00:49:43
when I curate show because I did curate some, a lot of group
00:49:47
shows. And I I'm not going to deny that
00:49:51
I'm never like invite my close friend.
00:49:54
Instead, I always invite people around me like because even
00:49:59
they're not close, but because of my circle, because of my
00:50:02
maybe my culture background. Also, my experience shaped the
00:50:08
very particular people group of people around me.
00:50:11
And I can only see them. I can also see people like apart
00:50:16
from like those group of people, but the same is something might
00:50:20
stop me from very inside. Maybe they are not really
00:50:24
approachable to me. But The thing is, I would say I
00:50:29
would definitely keep trying to approach the people that are not
00:50:34
in my because I'm expanding this circle by inviting more people
00:50:41
that I have. I have no common friend ways.
00:50:45
I have no overlap ways so and I found it's fascinating all the
00:50:52
time because every time I've been rejected by artists a few
00:50:58
times, even I bring budget, bring artists fee to them.
00:51:03
Is there still always a reason for them to reject me and
00:51:09
multiple reasons. Maybe my tutorial reproach or my
00:51:14
tutorial premise doesn't really resonate with them.
00:51:16
They found it irrelevant. That's all fine.
00:51:18
But I do have experience with artists who have no idea who the
00:51:24
hell am I, who are more very experienced in the industry, but
00:51:28
they still like very open, very kind and embracing the new ideas
00:51:36
and embracing to collaborate with new people.
00:51:40
And that gave me a lot of motivation.
00:51:43
And that is also a round of the central.
00:51:46
I guess the suggestion from this book as well is you have to make
00:51:52
yourself be capable of holding more things.
00:51:55
Therefore, this, this very this container of you, your world or
00:52:01
your friend circle can be able to create a more exciting story.
00:52:09
Yeah. I'm interested in the ethical
00:52:14
concern and priority of curating, not being, not
00:52:18
undermining the expertise that you have, because if you sit
00:52:26
with another curator with exactly the same profile as you,
00:52:31
you will have your expertise. They will have their expertise,
00:52:37
which will probably not be the same.
00:52:39
So Elizabeth Fisher is a really interesting character because
00:52:45
she, I thought she was an anthropologist, but actually she
00:52:48
isn't. She was a writer who then
00:52:51
produced this book, which is a feminist book first and foremost
00:52:55
that draws on sociology, ethnology and anthropology.
00:52:59
And that says that the women were the first inventors of the
00:53:04
hunter gatherer face, which is really interesting.
00:53:09
And so she starts by saying why are women considered as property
00:53:13
that has been exchanged and sold?
00:53:16
So that's one of the first questions of the book.
00:53:19
And she associates our idea of nature with the idea of women.
00:53:26
So nature is also something to be conquered and possessed as
00:53:31
much as the female body. Ursula K Le Guin directly quotes
00:53:36
the book very quickly in the text.
00:53:38
I'm interested here in the question of narratives that you
00:53:43
raised, which is the main narrative, and the underlying
00:53:47
communitarian narratives that are being overlooked.
00:53:51
So for me, when I read the the text, it the the feminists
00:53:58
perspective was really interesting because, and I see
00:54:02
the way you read it as it being really effective because it's
00:54:06
not only defending a female perspective of nature, of life,
00:54:13
of anthropology and of knowledge.
00:54:15
It is saying you call this female and you put this in that
00:54:19
role. But actually this is all about
00:54:21
community. Yeah.
00:54:24
I when I doing the the curatorial practice and I never
00:54:30
think, I mean this is something as you just said, you think I
00:54:35
have more experience, but I if I have to count it, I don't think
00:54:39
I have really long profile, but I treat every project like a
00:54:45
child and it's like something I need to protect with all my
00:54:51
effort. And that's why I think overthink
00:54:55
even too much. I worried about oh is the
00:54:59
participate happy with the result, I need to ask them for
00:55:04
the consent for sure if I need to mention them in the future,
00:55:08
have to credit them properly, things like that.
00:55:12
So I build a website to document all the launch books.
00:55:15
Though I may be a family curator but I never realize it.
00:55:21
That is a better way of phrase it.
00:55:24
So I do things based on my instinct.
00:55:27
So I do think because I feel it's right, because it's my
00:55:32
inner soul is calling me to do this.
00:55:35
Therefore, I guess because I'm a female in the end, that explains
00:55:42
how I do things in that way. So I would rather interpret in
00:55:47
this way because and I was OK. I'm a feminist artist and so I'm
00:55:52
feminist curator. So I do everything feministly.
00:55:55
OK, I will realize, Oh my God, this is so beautiful.
00:55:58
But I never do that with very particular intention.
00:56:02
I follow my very instinct. So, and another thing I found
00:56:09
this video also very feminist but very natural to me is be
00:56:14
able to to gather things to think about future, to think
00:56:18
about longer future, to be able to gather resources and sustain
00:56:23
the current make this project sustainable.
00:56:29
There's something really, really natural and it's.
00:56:31
Interesting that you were talking about sustainability
00:56:36
and. Availability as well.
00:56:38
Accessibility. It's something nowadays like you
00:56:42
know, I work in URL, we've been kept educated like so the.
00:56:45
University of London. Yeah, University of Arts London,
00:56:51
as staff member, we always have this kind of session of how to
00:56:55
make your session or how to make the project more accessible,
00:57:00
more diverse, more sustainable. It's something that people keep
00:57:06
yelling all the time nowadays. The thing is, it's something so
00:57:11
natural, that's why this folk fascinates me.
00:57:13
It's like we've been yelling those manifestos all the time
00:57:16
and we encourage everyone to be accessible, be sustainable.
00:57:22
But people pre history, people already been doing that without
00:57:27
any single thoughts of what is exactly is sustainable.
00:57:33
So and that is really refreshing for me.
00:57:38
And and then once you understand why people are doing this, you
00:57:42
will be able to doing everything more naturally, more really
00:57:47
following your heart more genuinely instead of just to
00:57:51
tick the book you. Were talking about prehistory
00:57:53
and you were talking about the way the Ursula K Lewin describes
00:57:58
the way the the Neolithic people live.
00:58:02
So in a sort of a harmonious relationship with things.
00:58:06
The exhibition space is a museum, is an Art Center.
00:58:10
But you're seeing that maybe the exhibition space is something
00:58:13
else, is somewhere else. To answer this question, I also
00:58:17
I also want to mention the very emotional point for me and also
00:58:23
why this book resonant with me, especially when the Queen is
00:58:27
talking about woman or or a kind of man that is able to making a
00:58:35
sack or carrying a bag to hold things together, things to open
00:58:40
up things for more people for longer future.
00:58:43
And that's resonate with because this kind of care embedded in
00:58:48
her text is really important to me throughout my all my tutorial
00:58:53
project. And I didn't even realize that.
00:58:56
So that very moment was I put when I was doing this artist
00:59:02
lunch boxing, I put all the lunch box was about 25 lunch
00:59:08
boxes into a luggage. So I didn't even prepare a lot
00:59:14
of my my clothes because I need to save space.
00:59:20
I need to save space. So I wonder.
00:59:21
About that. I wear 2 coat with me when I was
00:59:28
landing the plan, but this is really ambitious to make the
00:59:32
whole space accessible to everyone.
00:59:36
This is very ambitious, but I would try my best and I'm being
00:59:40
learning and also improving so but this would be my definitely
00:59:45
a huge part of my learning journey as a curator.
00:59:49
You're. Not at the centre of the
00:59:50
operation. You're not the decision maker
00:59:53
and you are not the person who's the hero, right?
00:59:56
We were talking about establishing a parallel between
00:59:59
the curator and the hero, but I would argue that by setting up
01:00:06
such an original. Frame of work.
01:00:11
And such an original setting of people sending you their lunch
01:00:16
boxes, you going into the studio to collect a lunch box that you
01:00:20
gave a prompt for, and then carrying the the lunch boxes to
01:00:25
Vienna and then creating this almost performative distribution
01:00:33
of the lunch boxes and rearranging the workshop
01:00:39
setting. I think you render yourself far
01:00:42
more visible and far more remarkable than any person who
01:00:47
would just have sent an e-mail to an artist saying, I want to
01:00:50
borrow that work of yours, please.
01:00:53
They would have sent, yes, speak to my gallery or speak to me.
01:00:55
If they don't have a gallery, fill in, in the loan forms, the
01:01:00
work is shipped, they're invited to the inauguration or not.
01:01:06
And in some ways the curator becomes really unremarkable
01:01:09
because they're just a person who had an idea, contacted them,
01:01:14
You know, make perhaps an effort to send a text, explain the
01:01:18
idea, do a Zoom call. But then the idea of curating is
01:01:23
that the artist is at the forefront of the exhibition.
01:01:27
It's not you, but here you are much more visible as someone who
01:01:33
is and you're making the carrier visible.
01:01:38
And my, my, the second part of my argument would be, I think
01:01:43
that the carrier is a really important object because it
01:01:47
requires, if you think about it, and you were talking about
01:01:50
Robinson Crusoe in the beginning of the episode and the, the fact
01:01:54
that a whole chapter is dedicated at creating a pot.
01:01:58
It's not easy to make a container when you live in the
01:02:01
prehistoric time. It means that you have to weave
01:02:05
for hours and hours and hours and hours.
01:02:09
You have to work on the material.
01:02:10
You have to create fabric for Christ's sakes, which is just
01:02:15
unimaginable when you think about it, that you had to make
01:02:18
fabric like with your bare hands, of course, with your
01:02:21
stencils and tools, and obviously lots of traditions
01:02:26
that were passed on from generation to generation.
01:02:29
But still, the container is a beautiful object in itself that
01:02:33
requires so much skill. So in some ways you kind of
01:02:36
descended from your pedestal of the curator as the maximum
01:02:41
authority. You placed yourself in the
01:02:44
creative level alongside the artists in some ways.
01:02:51
I feel. Thank you.
01:02:52
I mean this is very interesting comment.
01:02:55
What I just you know, on this project also my way love being a
01:02:59
curator. Something I found really
01:03:01
relevant with resonated with what the Queen said because she
01:03:07
very, very humbly said she didn't disagree with the hero
01:03:11
Centre story. She just said she differs with
01:03:15
all this kind of story. Or maybe she's not human at all.
01:03:20
If a human means you need to kill, you need to use a weapon,
01:03:25
then she's not human at all. And this is where she transit to
01:03:30
being a maybe a defective human. Do you?
01:03:33
Mind if I leave, if I read the the message?
01:03:36
Because you, you are quite right.
01:03:38
It's such a beautiful. The society, the civilization
01:03:42
they were talking about, these theoreticians was evidently
01:03:45
theirs. They owned it, they liked it.
01:03:48
They were human. Fully human.
01:03:50
Bashing, sticking, thrusting, killing.
01:03:54
Wanting to be human too. I sought for evidence that I
01:03:58
was, but if that's what it took to make a weapon and kill with
01:04:02
it, then evidently I was either extremely defective as a human
01:04:07
being or not human at all. Yeah, I guess.
01:04:11
I guess I just really like the way she disagree with this kind
01:04:16
of, you know, a haunting story. But she didn't say, Oh, I
01:04:20
disagree. She say she says instead, she
01:04:23
said, OK, if that if that means being a heal isn't you are
01:04:27
human, then I'm not human at all because I'm not like this kind
01:04:30
of people and I don't like killing.
01:04:34
So I that's why I feel like when you are talking about my
01:04:38
project, you know, you said I did too much like I.
01:04:43
Did not say you did much. I said you did.
01:04:46
You did something very You were weaving.
01:04:50
Basically you were weaving the container, which is you.
01:04:55
You. You did a huge amount of work
01:04:59
that puts you in the place of inquiry, of questioning for the
01:05:06
artists and for the other people involved in the project.
01:05:09
Yeah. And but yeah, it's also, as you
01:05:11
said, like the normal typical understanding of being a curator
01:05:16
is like writing emails, approach artists, approach galleries,
01:05:20
approach collectors. They all like really, let's say
01:05:24
intelligent work. You sit in front of your laptop
01:05:28
and then you and then you organize your thought, you
01:05:31
deliver the project in this way. But to me, I mean, I'm not
01:05:38
denying I also like being curated like this.
01:05:40
Most of the work I have done in front of my laptop.
01:05:45
But to me, this project is so unique for me is I literally
01:05:52
like you said, I waved the whole project with my own bare hands.
01:05:56
And that's something I learned so much from this project
01:06:02
because because this kind of hand on experience cannot be
01:06:07
replaced by any kind of, you know, a laptop based work.
01:06:17
And again, and I, I feel when I was on the plane and when I was
01:06:22
carrying the luggage to another city, I feel like I kind of
01:06:28
understanding curator more like carrying and carrying.
01:06:34
And that was really refreshing. And I want to be a curator like
01:06:38
this because I felt a really deep pleasure of doing that.
01:06:44
And I know there was a lot of laborious work carrying around,
01:06:51
travelling around, but I'm not saying, but there was all this
01:06:56
labor, all this work. They are part of this whole
01:07:00
project, making this project available for more people,
01:07:04
making every participant comfortable with participating
01:07:08
to this project, making the connection, making the whole
01:07:13
atmosphere, the whole experience something into something that
01:07:19
they they kind of never experienced before.
01:07:23
It's something I really, really want to achieve and that drives
01:07:27
me to do that I. Think our conversation started
01:07:31
by us saying that idea that you thought you had.
01:07:34
Actually, many people have had that idea before.
01:07:38
You're just carrying that idea, right?
01:07:41
But the way you carry it and is at least making a decision of
01:07:47
carrying that and not something else.
01:07:50
So you are the person bringing that change.
01:07:53
Should that be celebrated as a heroic thing?
01:07:57
I don't think so. It's just a thing.
01:08:00
It's just an it's just an exhibit.
01:08:02
Even artists, I think shouldn't be celebrated like that.
01:08:05
Even Ursula K Le Guin should not be.
01:08:08
And she's the first one to say, this is not my idea, this is
01:08:11
Elizabeth. Elizabeth's idea so.
01:08:13
No one one should be put in a pedestal.
01:08:16
That's what I think. Not artists, not writers, not
01:08:19
curators, not podcasters, not older people, not younger
01:08:24
people. But it is a thing, it is a
01:08:28
reality that I have 20 year career, you have a five year
01:08:31
career. I know Portuguese history, you
01:08:36
know, I don't know what history you do.
01:08:38
And so we all have competences and we all bring something to
01:08:41
the table and we all have value. And I think that you, it's
01:08:47
important to know one's value. It's important to respect
01:08:50
others. But before you respect others,
01:08:52
you have to respect yourself as well.
01:08:54
And I think this consciousness of your, your perspective is
01:09:01
very important. And an empty box is not just an
01:09:06
empty box. Oh, it is made in a certain
01:09:09
material. Yeah.
01:09:11
It was designed in a certain way.
01:09:14
There's no neutrality. And also the same the same that
01:09:18
you put into the box also matters a lot.
01:09:23
Yeah, more so Yeah. So back to the the large box
01:09:26
project. I mean, without those artists,
01:09:29
those very open artists who are so excited with this kind of
01:09:35
idea and without their contribution, they are really,
01:09:38
really generous. Some of the the box they
01:09:41
submitted was like so beautiful, like a treasure box.
01:09:45
I. Have a question for you, which
01:09:46
is the, so the, the, the value of I, I'm intrigued by what you
01:09:51
said, which I, I don't think I've ever thought about, which
01:09:54
is this idea of carrying. I'm really interested in that
01:10:00
idea of being a carrier of something as a curator.
01:10:05
What does that mean in terms of action?
01:10:08
And what do you see yourself carrying beyond the artwork,
01:10:14
obviously. I think this is very, very good
01:10:20
question. And also been thinking about
01:10:22
that a lot. Like why would I like to
01:10:24
describe myself as a carrier instead of yeah, I found it's
01:10:30
more accurate than curator because cure is a cure.
01:10:35
Feels like I'm a doctor. I'm doing some surgery.
01:10:39
Absolutely. I'll do some surgery with to the
01:10:42
our work then they're not I'll or.
01:10:45
A Wellness, a Wellness provider because you're healing or
01:10:48
something? Yeah.
01:10:49
You're feeling something, but it's it's more like you kind of
01:10:53
presume that our work they are ill.
01:10:55
It makes me feel like I'm person who is walking on this journey
01:11:01
of being a curator. And on this journey in I might
01:11:06
encounter many things. I encountered you today.
01:11:09
Tomorrow I might encounter another person.
01:11:12
Even I'm watching ATV program, I encounter some sort.
01:11:18
So all these encounters are very important to me.
01:11:23
If I see myself as curator, I think.
01:11:25
That's really interesting point. It's a beautiful way of putting
01:11:29
it, I have to say. And also, I think the
01:11:31
interesting point is the personal.
01:11:34
Yeah. Was it intentional or do you
01:11:38
really believe that it's a personal personal?
01:11:42
Preference. That's curating is bound to the
01:11:52
person's experience. I would say very much so,
01:11:58
although we would try to, I would try to avoid, make
01:12:04
everything too personal. But The thing is, it's something
01:12:07
you can't really avoid. It's something because I'm a
01:12:12
person. In the end, I would definitely,
01:12:17
but my, my, my choice, I would say my choice might be made even
01:12:21
before me. So it might be made because of
01:12:25
my culture, because all the education I received, because
01:12:29
this whole environment is fading me with some informations.
01:12:33
Therefore I made my choice and this choice is made in by the
01:12:37
combination of my my personal preference and the wider,
01:12:43
broader quarter context. So I embrace my this this fact
01:12:51
that I might make some decision because this is my personal
01:12:56
decision, but also I think it's something more beyond it's
01:13:05
driven me to do that decision. Also the the description I just
01:13:11
used maybe a bit abstract, like a person carry a bag on a
01:13:15
journey. But I think this is the most
01:13:18
accurate way to describe my my feeling as being a curator.
01:13:24
Because you do encounter so many new things.
01:13:29
And the most important thing is having this open mind and always
01:13:34
aware that you are on the journey, that you are observing,
01:13:38
you are absorbing things around you, the informations.
01:13:44
And you feel responsible. You feel responsible because
01:13:49
because since you have this finish, this action of
01:13:52
collecting things, it was like, OK, this idea is so fascinating,
01:13:56
I need to put on my list and I will think about that later.
01:14:00
So. So to so to end this really
01:14:03
lovely conversation where I learnt so much and kind of
01:14:10
shifted perspectives, which I think is what this book is
01:14:14
about, is about shifting perspectives in a way that seems
01:14:17
so obvious and yet you haven't been looking at.
01:14:20
So I feel that that's what you brought to me today.
01:14:26
Why don't we choose the bits in the final part of the text that
01:14:32
you could read? So do you want to read your your
01:14:36
final paragraph towards the end? Yes, because this paragraph is
01:14:42
mentioned something we haven't yet mentioned, but I think it's
01:14:48
is good enough to understand what Laquin is trying to
01:14:52
suggest. So this paragraph is saying one
01:14:56
relationship among elements in the novel may well be that of
01:15:00
conflicts, but the reduction of narrative to conflicts is
01:15:05
absurd. Conflicts, competition, stress,
01:15:08
struggle, etcetera, within the narrative conceived as carrier
01:15:13
bag or belly or box or house or medicine bundle may be seen as
01:15:18
necessary elements of a whole, which itself cannot be
01:15:22
characterized either as conflicts or as harmony, since
01:15:26
its purpose is NASA resolution nor stasis, but continuing
01:15:32
process. Yeah, and what's funny is that
01:15:36
my exit is the next paragraph. That's good.
01:15:41
So this is really interesting because in some ways, do you
01:15:45
think she's saying that the the only she's not against conflict?
01:15:53
No. That conflict is just a small
01:15:56
part, yes. Is is she's trying to
01:16:00
decentralize the idea of conflicts because as you said at
01:16:06
the very beginning when you studied literature, you were
01:16:09
taught that the conflicts are they are men main reason to
01:16:13
drive the whole narrative. But for Laquaine, narrative is
01:16:18
just part of the story and the same with all the other elements
01:16:23
as a whole. And the final purpose for the
01:16:26
whole story of the whole story to interpret the ordinal.
01:16:31
So to incorporate in the conflicts is just trying to make
01:16:35
everything keep going. It's not.
01:16:39
The ultimate goal is not to highlight the result or the
01:16:44
outcome of this conflicts. And so in some ways, you're
01:16:49
having a really narrow perspective of what being alive
01:16:52
is, rather than expanding like you were saying in the
01:16:55
beginning, like that your goal is expansion, I highlighted.
01:16:59
So what comes next? Which is so she says, quote.
01:17:03
Finally, it's clear that the hero does not look well in this
01:17:08
bag. He needs a stage or a pedestal
01:17:12
or a pinnacle. You put him in a bag and he
01:17:15
looks like a rabbit, like a potato.
01:17:18
That is why I like novels instead of heroes.
01:17:21
They have people in them. Very beautiful.
01:17:27
She's incredible. What a small text.
01:17:30
I think it's probably going to be the smallest text, the
01:17:32
smallest text someone's going to bring to the art book club
01:17:36
segment And yet. And so.
01:17:39
Yeah. Well, thank you so, so, so, so
01:17:41
much. This was so pleasurable and so
01:17:44
enlightening and such a pleasure also to revisit this text.
01:17:47
So thank you so, so much, Catherine.
01:17:50
I mean, thank you. I mean, I, it was such a long
01:17:53
conversation, but for me was really, I mean, I was able to
01:17:57
keep energetic all the time because you were so, you know,
01:18:01
the conversation was so intriguing and you will always
01:18:05
be able to, you know, mention something that I also never
01:18:09
really think about before. And you let me to, because let
01:18:14
me to, to reflect on my projects once again, to reflect on my
01:18:18
career as curator or my perception of being a curator
01:18:23
once again. I mean, this is lovely.
01:18:27
Thank you so much, Joanna. Listen, I hope you come back.
01:18:30
And to you, dear listeners, thank you so much for sticking
01:18:35
around. This has been a huge pleasure.
01:18:38
Catherine did say it was a very long conversation, so you will
01:18:42
know that this will have been edited quite a bit.
01:18:45
We did talk for more than two hours, so yeah, thanks again and
01:18:50
bye bye. Exhibition Nesters is an
01:18:52
independent podcast created and hosted by me, Joanna Pyar
01:18:56
Nevers. We have episodes every two weeks
01:19:00
and this season, season 3, is a bit of a turning point.
01:19:03
We have 5 new episode types, from more experimental art
01:19:08
travel logs or art stories to conversational formats about
01:19:14
solo exhibitions with people who are not part of the industry.
01:19:18
Because we're all both actors and spectators of art and life.
01:19:23
If you're new here, you have a whole catalog of episodes to
01:19:28
enjoy this cover them at your own pace.